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Can we have another Town Hall and detailed Product Road Map, please? RRS feed

  • Question

  • It's been forever since the community has seen a product roadmap for LightSwitch.  A year ago we saw something of a 'statement of direction', but that's not what I'm talking about.  We need more information about what specific backlog items are being worked on and what to expect from both near and long term releases.

    Since the HTML Client announcement, there has been a great deal of discomfort in the LS community about the lack of information coming from MSFT regarding advancement towards a LS client for LOB application development. 

    LOB HTML5

    Most folks believe a new HTML client having no dependency on jQuery Mobile UI which is open and extensible so that other popular frameworks & controls could be used would be a step in the right direction.  However, without a roadmap, no one can say whether this is likely to happen.

    Over a year ago, Joe Binder held a much appreciated, well attended Town Hall meeting, after which, no summary nor answers to questions were posted as promised.  Though we were told they'd like to make this a regular occurrence, none has happened since.

    Live from Redmond - Visual Studio LightSwitch Town Hall Thursday, September 12, 2013 | 8:00AM – 9:30AM (PDT, Redmond Time)

    More than 6 months ago, Steve Lasker solicited interviews from the community regarding LS LOB appdev.  As far as we know, nothing has become of that.

    Looking for LOB Developers

    Now discomfort in the community about the future of LS is at the highest I've seen.  Both in the forums and privately, everyone is discussing alternative tools and frameworks for building HTML LOB apps.

    Large LOB application using the HTML client

    Meanwhile, MSFT puts out a survey which reads like 'is anyone even using lightswitch?'

    Please Take the LightSwitch/Cloud Business App Developer Survey!

    Can we have another Town Hall and detailed road map please?

    Please vote if you agree:

    Provide Lightswitch Product Roadmap - recurring Town Hall

    TIA,

    Josh

    • Edited by joshbooker Wednesday, September 24, 2014 2:30 PM Links and stuff
    • Changed type Yanjin Xu - MSFTModerator Friday, October 3, 2014 2:34 AM
    • Changed type joshbooker Friday, October 3, 2014 11:15 AM Because it is a question
    Wednesday, September 24, 2014 2:23 PM

All replies

  • I think this is a reasonable request and echoes what others I talk to have felt.

    UPDATE: 12/5/2014

    **************************************************************

    **************************************************************

    **********      The Response  by Microsoft:       ************

    **********    Where We Are and the Road Ahead     ************

    **************************************************************

    **************************************************************


    Unleash the Power - Get the LightSwitch 2013 HTML Client / SharePoint 2013 book

    http://LightSwitchHelpWebsite.com



    Wednesday, September 24, 2014 5:03 PM
  • +1 !!!

    paul van bladel ==independent enterprise application architect== http://blog.pragmaswitch.com

    Wednesday, September 24, 2014 5:15 PM
  • VS 14, probably out next month, should be a good bellwether for the direction of LS/CBA, I would bet.
    Wednesday, September 24, 2014 7:42 PM
  • As of VS14 CTP3 msls.js was version 2.5.1 which means nothing new since VS2013 Update2.  I hope that's not a bellwether.

    29 votes in 4 hours is pretty good, thanks everyone.  Let's keep this on top!

    Wednesday, September 24, 2014 7:55 PM
  • Thanks, Josh!  Please vote people.
    Wednesday, September 24, 2014 7:57 PM
  • This got my vote :) Thanks Josh!

    Keep rocking LS!
    Jan

    PS: have you seen app-stitch yet? It's a visually simple yet powerful way of designing business rules for Visual Studio LightSwitch apps.

    Wednesday, September 24, 2014 8:09 PM
  • As of VS14 CTP3 msls.js was version 2.5.1 which means nothing new since VS2013 Update2.  I hope that's not a bellwether.

    29 votes in 4 hours is pretty good, thanks everyone.  Let's keep this on top!


    The biggest recent update was the March 2014 update and that was definitely off-cycle so I would not look at the VS14 as an indicator of what is going on with LightSwitch...

    Unleash the Power - Get the LightSwitch 2013 HTML Client / SharePoint 2013 book

    http://LightSwitchHelpWebsite.com

    Wednesday, September 24, 2014 8:18 PM
  • It was time to say it! Thanks Josh! I vote too.

    Wednesday, September 24, 2014 8:24 PM
  • + 3 ;))
    Wednesday, September 24, 2014 8:44 PM
  • Voted, thanks Josh.  

    At times I get the impression that MS does not understand or take into account the huge impact that the lack of direction with LS has on software development businesses like us. We literally make "swim or sink" business decisions on the back of what we "hope" will happen with LS. 

    We are just embarking on another large LOB LS app - is that the right decision, should we play it safe and do ASP.NET MVC instead, who knows? All we can do is pin our ears back, go full throttle and hope for the best... not ideal.

    I keep saying to colleagues that we have to make LS-based decisions on the basis of what we have today. If in two years we still only have what we have today, will it still stack up? It can be so much better with a roadmap.

    As suggested by others on this forum, if it truly is not going to go anywhere then MS owes it to the community to open source the whole thing so the community can get behind it and advance it. But lets hope this is not the case.


    Regards, Xander. My Blog

    Wednesday, September 24, 2014 9:12 PM
  • Thursday, September 25, 2014 12:18 AM
  • Good question Xander. Depends on the the meaning of Under Review, I suppose. And also on the accuracy of that status. The purpose of this thread is to solicit real answers to questions like this.
    Thursday, September 25, 2014 12:27 AM
  • Voted!

    This is all very reminiscent of where we were some while back. Lots of legitimate questions were being asked and being ignored (many times) until one day I and others basically lost patience and appealed directly to the Team. Ultimately we got a very wordy and (as far as SL and even to some extent HTML Client were concerned) unsatisfactory response. Still, it DID lead to the 'Town Hall' meeting.

    Josh has perfectly alluded to the 'results' of that so I won't go into it here.

    I simply have NOT understood the complete lack of a firm direction for replacing the SL client. We got the HTML Client; suddenly, overnight as it were, we were all to get it into our heads that LOB doesn't exist on the desktop anymore and that we must think in terms of the new mobile paradigm, regardless of whether or not our next and greatest Line-of-Business app(lication) was suitable for, or was even desirable, to be used within that paradigm.

    This of course is not to say that the HTML Client isn't suitable for purpose; after all, no-one in the Team ever pretended that mobile/tablet wasn't the space into which it was being targeted; acknowledged.

    But now we were left with an admittedly superb middle-tier product (all that encapsulated business logic and data access, OData et al), but zero truly supported/maintained front-end for desktop-targeted LOB development.

    I'd love to build beautiful looking desktop-based applications (which my clients demand, by the way) using LightSwitch. I can't; I have to go MVC or elsewhere to get anywhere near the design control I need for web-based applications. Given the technology in LS, this is a crying shame; it's wasted, when it could be everything for the pro developer AND power user alike.

    Apart from expanding the HTML client (absolutely vital), and/or at least opening it up in some way for easier integration, what happened regarding MS' evangelism of Win8 applications in the context of LightSwitch? There has in fact never been any hint whatsoever that a XAML/C# client for LightSwitch was in the works and yet this is presumably a market they want developers to hit? Imagine developing for Win8 with LS, with all those wonderful 3rd party controls out there; it would open up a whole new market for us!

    Seriously, what is the actual point of a LOB framework which can't truly LOB (so to speak)? Why is it reduced to languishing in the so-called 'sweet-spot' (Joe Binder's words, not mine) of Office365/SharePoint apps? What was all that investment for?

    So ok all this sounds rather cynical, almost as if I'm aware of the conclusions to all of this. Well let me tell you that I am NOT. And THAT is the very point that Josh so eloquently makes; i.e. there is no communication, no roadmap; the odd blog about how to create an order (with 3 or 4 fields) et al. What are we supposed to think? We even basically had to BEG to get even basic HTML Client API documentation: breath-taking!

    This sums up WHY we are frustrated; why we're nervous about committing, why we might feel that we can't risk taking certain clients down the LS road when we want to, we really do!

    And now this 'survey'. Well you know I think that over the past some while, the LS team have been made very aware via UserVoice et al of what the developer community would like to see; so like Josh I'm very much wondering where this is going. Frankly, I'm more nervous than I was prior to receiving the invitation.

    It would obviously be very welcome if someone with the authority would be kind enough to calm our nerves and damn quickly!

    Ian Mac


    Ian Mac

    Thursday, September 25, 2014 3:57 PM
  • BUMP

    72 votes in 24 hours!  This is in the top 15 out of 307 suggestions for LightSwitch.  Double the votes and it'll be in top 5 with other's marked as 'Under Review'

    Great job!  Please share and retweet!

    Thanks,

    Josh

    Thursday, September 25, 2014 4:02 PM
  • BUMP
    Thursday, September 25, 2014 7:53 PM
  • Voted. I'm not sure why Microsoft wants to be secretive about the future of the product. I heard Beth interviewed on a podcast recently and she was asked what's coming up for lightswitch and she said I can't tell you – I want to keep my job! Maybe they think it adds a sense of mystery and excitement? – it's not an iPhone people!
    Friday, September 26, 2014 3:43 AM
  • The UV Suggestion has reached 97 votes in less than 45 hours.

    We're in the top 10 for LightSwitch and top 5 'Hot Ideas' for all of Visual Studio.

    Dave Kidder confirmed 24 hours ago that the LS team has been made aware of this post.

    Congrats folks!  Keep it climbing.

    Friday, September 26, 2014 3:12 PM
  • What do we want to talk about at this Town Hall?  I ask in order to fashion the most productive session possible, should MSFT decide to hold one.  A roadmap is good, but a roadmap that the community agrees with is even better.  So I started thinking about what I would consider to be the ultimate LS experience.  Think from File > New.  I would like a blank solution where I could add a LightSwitch Server Project (no client).  Within that dialog, similar to MVC, I should be able to optionally select if I would like to include a LightSwitch Web API controller, an MVC controller, Signal R, and/or a domain service.  The controllers would be set up well with a LightSwitch Server Application Context or connection to the OData service, a Global.asax, and StartUp class, and a choice to use asynchronous methods.  With my server project set up, I could start adding client projects (as many as I want).  The client could be an MVC view, a single page application, a LightSwitch HTML Mobile client, Silverlight, or new LightSwitch LOB client.  Or, maybe I rolled my own EF data access layer with ASP.net Identity etc.  Now I want to add one of the LightSwitch clients.  The default functionality should 'just work'. I think that sort of experience would be amazing and would position LightSwitch squarely in the middle of the ASP.net ecosystem.



    • Edited by Hessc Saturday, September 27, 2014 5:22 AM
    Saturday, September 27, 2014 5:15 AM
  • Would like to see another Town Hall Meeting also...
    Saturday, September 27, 2014 10:10 PM
  • With 126 votes, this UV suggestion is 7 from the top in LS category. Preceded only by ideas marked 'Under Review'

    Please vote here.

    Monday, September 29, 2014 10:32 PM
  • Voted, and thanks for posting this.  

    My biggest trouble with LS has been the lack of documentation on the HTML client-- Michael and Jan have been invaluable in providing what information there is (Paul van Bladel deserves credit as well) but we only got an official HTML client API layout a few months ago and it's still difficult at times to know what to try when you get yourself boxed into a corner.  This group is also a goldmine and without it I'd have walked from LS long ago.  

    More documentation on the HTML client isn't an unreasonable request I think, and a town hall sounds perfect.  

    As to future development I'd say the HTML client is a little ho-hum in appearance and it would be nice to have better looking UI components out of the box-- shallow I know, but if you want to sell to customers you need some sizzle along with the steak.  (Most of us aren't CSS wizards and could use some help slicking up the look and feel.  I freely admit my own vanilla screens are partly my own fault and nothing to do with LS.)

    Other requests would include more help with file uploads (yes, there's the image uploader but something more generic would be nice?) and a reporting tool would be nirvana, not that I'm holding my breath.  I'm playing with ComponentOne's reports and like them (thanks to Michael Washington's blog I know how to use them) but it's a bit clunky getting them into an LS app.

    Tuesday, September 30, 2014 6:16 AM
  • BUMP
    Tuesday, September 30, 2014 8:45 PM
  • Well said. We all hate to see the Visual Studio LightSwitch 2013 tool, especially the brilliant HTML Client, not getting the attention it so richly deserves. In "July 2013 Microsoft announced that it would reorganize the business into 4 new business divisions by function: Operating System, Apps, Cloud and Devices. All previous divisions will be diluted into new divisions without any workforce cut." (thank you Wikipedia). These statements are never true &, sure 'nuff, heads have rolled. This is also about the time that LightSwitch development froze. Tools now falls under 'Windows Division, Server and Tools, Online Services Division' and it's 'diluted' existence would indicate that tools will only be built to support Windows, Server products and online services like Office 365. There is a very real chance that LightSwitch, as we know it, will cease to exist. Even the name was tied to Silverlight and that has no future beyond windows devices. I quote: “From a virtual monopoly on personal computing 10 years ago, Windows now runs only about 14 percent of devices, according to research firm Gartner.” So Silverlight is not our future. So what is brewing inside that misty Cloud? I see the shape of a . . . no wait . . .

    Z A R D O Z

    Wednesday, October 1, 2014 3:12 AM
  •  it's 'diluted' existence would indicate that tools will only be built to support Windows, Server products and online services like Office 365. 

    I'm not sure that focusing on cloud and sharepoint/Office 365 qualifies as dilution.  I'm using LS with Azure right now and am happy to do so; they make it very easy to publish your app there and I have no problem with it.  More Azure accounts = more money for Microsoft, which is how it should be.  Few of us are running charities.

    I am a bit puzzled at all the SP/ Office 365 emphasis given to lightswitch lately, and hope it doesn't mean watering down the Azure offerings going forward.  I don't have any qualms with 365 but some of us are generic cloud users and I think that's a potentially big market.

    Part of me wishes Silverlight received better adoption, it's a great technology IMO but my customers are all about HTML5 and I have to paddle that canoe.  Here's to hoping the HTML client gets richer screen designs (more grids, 'subscreens', fancier CSS etc) and more documentation soon.

    Hope the town hall comes to pass before long, I'd love to hear and join in it.


    Wednesday, October 1, 2014 3:44 AM
  • It will be interesting to see the Community and Content Roll Up for October.

    At this point I think Paul Van Bladel should send MS an invoice for the work he is doing...

    Wednesday, October 1, 2014 2:00 PM
  • It will be interesting to see the Community and Content Roll Up for October.

    At this point I think Paul Van Bladel should send MS an invoice for the work he is doing...


    Whats up with MS. Why always kill before it's grown and old. Why build something great and then put it to rest. Whats the point? Smells like bad management. If I would run my company like that I would be dead in a year. Sven

    Sven Elm

    Wednesday, October 1, 2014 5:09 PM
  • Some things I think about:

    The forum is full of new curious programmers who want to learn LightSwitch. We are a few who have been there from the beginning as do all we can to help the newly opened to this wonderful technology.

    The response from the LS team in the forum are mostly poor and refer to the old links that are out of date.

    I was very active before in the forum and want to be there still but with a nagging feeling that LightSwitch will die it does not feel as fun as before when Beth and others from the LS team commented daily. It was fun and exciting.

    I understand that MS need to make money and that they should also, but to create something good and again and again scrap it has to cost a lot.

    Why not finish, for once, and invest in a technology that everyone likes, both we and our customers. More and more people are using MS products. More dollars in their pocket. The day we get tired, less dollars in their pocket. simple equation I think.

    Sven Elm


    • Edited by Sven Elm Wednesday, October 1, 2014 5:40 PM
    Wednesday, October 1, 2014 5:38 PM
  • Why not finish, for once, and invest in a technology that everyone likes, both we and our customers. More and more people are using MS products. More dollars in their pocket. The day we get tired, less dollars in their pocket. simple equation I think.

    It depends on how many people actually use LightSwitch.  If it's not that many, it may make sense for MS to move on.  I hope that is not the case, but it could be.  What makes me frustrated are long periods of silence where we sit in limbo wondering what's next, if anything.  Even simple vague statements like, "hang on, we're working on big things!", or, "Based on our current resources, we don't expect to add significant new functionality to the product in VS2014," would at least be helpful to someone trying to plan their next application.

    Wednesday, October 1, 2014 6:00 PM
  • True, good words

    Sven Elm

    Wednesday, October 1, 2014 7:16 PM
  • Angie,

    Thanks for noticing this post.  You changed it from a question to a discussion likely because there has been some discussion in the thread, however, I changed it back to a question because that's what it is. 

    It's a yes or no question (specifically for the LS team) which I'll repeat:

    Can we have another Town Hall and detailed road map, please?

    Update:  With 182 votes, the UV suggestion is now top 6 of 307 for LS amongst others marked 'under review' and top 4 'Hot Items' for all of Visual Studio.

    Presently it's been 9 days since the suggestion was made and 6 business days since LS team acknowledged seeing this thread.

    Have a great weekend!

    Josh

    Friday, October 3, 2014 4:24 PM
  • Picked up several votes over the weekend. Thanks
    Monday, October 6, 2014 11:39 AM
  • Coming in a bit late but would love to see something happen here.

    Derek

    Monday, October 6, 2014 4:29 PM
  • There are obviously 3 x aspects to a LightSwitch or CBA application:

    1. The Silverlight / Desktop Client - we know this is a dead duck

    2. The HTML Client - we don't know where this is headed, if anywhere, but my best guess is O365/CBA/SP type apps only

    3. The OData backend service - this seems to be lagging behind the latest OData specification with no clear direction/commitment to evolve

    Number 3 is perhaps the most concerning to me. I've all along believed that as long as the backend is behind that LS OData service we can always replace the frontend client with another technology if required, which would be an acceptable strategy to me, but if the LS backend is not going to be evolved either, then we are truly stuffed with any LS projects down the road.

    Back to the main question of the thread...


    Regards, Xander. My Blog

    • Edited by novascape Monday, October 6, 2014 8:49 PM
    Monday, October 6, 2014 8:48 PM
  • Re 2. HTML Client: Cloud Business Apps (aka 'Office 365 Cloud Business Apps') are also Single Page Apps (SPAs) AFAIK. The CBA interface looks to me like it just creates a LightSwitch app that only targets O365. Please correct me if I'm wrong. I haven't written any CBAs as yet only LightSwitch Apps.

    You're quite correct to say that we don't know where this is heading and that's been my concern when CBAs first appeared. Does that indicate that LightSwitch is dead or will they start producing separate Templates that target O365 & Azure (together or separately) and either continue with LightSwitch or rename it to only target IIS. My big concern is that publication to IIS will be dropped along with LightSwitch in the mad rush to move us all to the Cloud.

    The OData backend Service creation, as you say, is another issue. Will they come up with some other way to create an OData service, using up-to-date specifications, or will the creation of OData services the LightSwitch way, be dropped as an option in VS.Next?

    When it became clear that SilverLight was DOA a developer zombie apocalypse followed. At that stage Microsoft made it clear that HTML5 was their future so we could swallow a dead rat & move on. Why the caution on this occasion? Is more open sourcing an option here? Just what can we expect? Just more echo's in the wells of silence?


    Z A R D O Z

    Tuesday, October 7, 2014 3:08 AM
  • Keep your chins up folks! 

    We'll get an answer eventually.  Whether it's what we want hear is anybody's guess. 

    While we wait maybe this will uplift:

    msls-2.5.2.0 - small release - big thank you

    Josh

    Tuesday, October 7, 2014 6:28 PM
  • When it became clear that SilverLight was DOA a developer zombie apocalypse followed.


    This!!
    Tuesday, October 7, 2014 8:14 PM
  •  ;-)

    Z A R D O Z

    Tuesday, October 7, 2014 11:26 PM
  • Voted 3+

    My thanks to joshbooker, to all other main contributors and all forum subscribers.

    Come on MS, please let LS shine :)


    Marco

    • Proposed as answer by Nurkmez Wednesday, October 8, 2014 7:15 AM
    • Unproposed as answer by Nurkmez Wednesday, October 8, 2014 7:15 AM
    Wednesday, October 8, 2014 5:43 AM
  • Why is MS LS Team slow to answer this question? 

    I want to learn true intentions of Microsoft about Lightsiwtch as soon as posssible to refresh my roadmap.

    Is there anyone to replay this request from Microsoft?

    Best Regards,


    • Edited by Nurkmez Wednesday, October 8, 2014 7:22 AM
    Wednesday, October 8, 2014 7:22 AM
  • Hi joshbooker,

    We should sustain this question up to date, Altough MS team is late for answer.

    Thanks

    Thursday, October 9, 2014 6:13 AM
  • Microsoft can not answer. They float on the Azure cloud and dream of Office365;-)
    Thursday, October 9, 2014 7:40 AM
  • Microsoft can not answer. They float on the Azure cloud and dream of Office365;-)

    There is probably some truth in the sarcasm.  My guess is that any future plans they may have been developing for lightswitch involved another lurch in the direction of SP/0365.  In fact, it's probably hard to shake out any funding in MS for anything that doesn't highlight those platforms.  Seeing that the community is up in arms, and knowing that any such announcements or releases of that variety would certainly lead to open warfare in the forums and/or a mass exodus to another product, they are probably trying to schedule high level meetings in an attempt to voice the customers' desires to management -- and that is what is taking so long.  It is frustrating but we have to understand that there is a certain amount of inertia that has be overcome.  This is of course just a guess.  Eventually though, patience will wear thin and real LOB apps will need to be developed; with or without LS.
    Thursday, October 9, 2014 2:06 PM
  • How about this scenario:

    With the advent of data-binding frameworks like Angular, UI frameworks like Wijmo (especially new version 5) et al, all of which can be used to create beautiful looking applications, plus the fact that an OData service can serve as the backend to these (Lightswitch service fits nicely here of course), you'd have to wonder why MS would put too much effort into what is effectively a proprietary 'front-end' technology as in the HTML Client, which to be fair is still going to be by far the fastest method of getting a UI up and running.

    Would they expend too much effort in bringing it out from its current (visually) very basic look and feel, to say nothing of its questionable application for the desktop (oops there's an expletive) scenario, minimal event hooks etc etc.

    Of course MS may have other ideas; if they have, then they are obviously not rushing to tell us. And there's the rub; a hell of a lot of us on here do this for a living (obviously I don't know if you personally do or not), so, particularly for those people, this state of affairs where we've had an open request for a couple of weeks with zero response at all is untenable really; dismissive and, i would suggest, disrespectful at the very least.

    But we've seen all this before. With a very great deal of noise, we got the original Town Hall, but not before a long-winded and obfuscating response to a build-up of issues. If we get one this time, I urge all of us to cut through that obfuscation, 'management-and-politico' splurge, thus to help drag out the basics.

    Tell you what though. If backend Lightswitch goes, it would be almost unbelievable.

    Barking, in fact.

    N.B. 'Barking'

    1. A town in ye olde England, the country with all the History, atrocious weather and "fish 'n chips"
    2. The noise a dog sometimes makes
    3. An adjective to describe a poor or inexplicable decision or action, as in 'Barking mad', as in MS doing anything other than fully supporting the future enhancement and development of LightSwitch

    It's Friday afternoon (in ye olde England at any rate), so give me some leeway (please!)


    Ian Mac

    Friday, October 10, 2014 6:55 PM
  •  

    Barking, in fact.

    N.B. 'Barking'

    1. A town in ye olde England, the country with all the History, atrocious weather and "fish 'n chips"
    2. The noise a dog sometimes makes
    3. An adjective to describe a poor or inexplicable decision or action, as in 'Barking mad', as in MS doing anything other than fully supporting the future enhancement and development of LightSwitch

    It's Friday afternoon (in ye olde England at any rate), so give me some leeway (please!)


    Ian Mac

    At least, a lot of these responses are as entertaining to read as their content is sad.



    Keep rocking LS!
    Jan

    PS: have you seen app-stitch yet? It's a visually simple yet powerful way of designing business rules for Visual Studio LightSwitch apps.

    Friday, October 10, 2014 7:01 PM
  • Ok, we can write programs in Wijmo, html and javascript. We can use the entity framework. But what is there for progress in 30 years? 30 years ago I had the programs in Cobol less lines of code for the same result written with Wijmo, Html and Javascript. Is this really advanced Technology? I expect a RAD system, which supported me in the development program and not put me back in the last century.
    Since I have been much further with Visual Foxpro and some HTML extensions.
    Therefore, I expect a further development of LightSwitch, a rapid development.
    I have no desire ever to make a step back to the last century.

    • Edited by J.Nord Friday, October 10, 2014 9:21 PM
    Friday, October 10, 2014 9:05 PM
  • Actually, regarding your comment about RAD that's what gives me a bit of hope. It was a hell of an investment and, if you think about it, as it stands LS gives us pretty much everything needed out of the box. Not only that but if we WANT to we can, through extensibility, nuget, frameworks et al, make it do practically anything we want.

    So it's RAD where applicable, but damn near infinitely 'tweakable'. That's pretty much the Holy Grail for us isn't it?

    For my own part and I suspect many others, it's the HTML client itself that needs some loving care and attention. It could be SO good. I DO hope there's something up MS' sleeve, or even a rabbit out of the hat.

    It just appears we've paid for our tickets, the theatre's full, the audience is full of anticipation, the lights are down, but the Magician is stuck on the freeway.

    Either that or his last disappearing act worked just a bit too well.


    Ian Mac

    P.S. I've always been wary of saying this, but what the hell; IMHO it needs renaming/rebranding.

    There, I've said it. Now I will be 'sent To Coventry'

    N.B. 'sent to Coventry', for my non-UK friends, is a ye olde English term used to describe being ostracised. No-one knows for certain the origin of this phrase which rather denigrates one of our proud cities.

    Typically, one can be deemed to have been 'sent to Coventry' if:

    • No-one will talk to you
    • Your company is avoided (you, not your LTD co or PLC) :-)
    • You are generally ignored via deliberate pretence that you no longer exist

    Oh....hang on......

    • Edited by Ian Mac Saturday, October 11, 2014 1:05 PM Addition
    Saturday, October 11, 2014 10:32 AM
  • ...Now I will be 'sent To Coventry'

    Loving the quotes. Brilliant.

    I voted for this already. What we need is for LightSwitch development to follow the more open approach of MVC. The surprises are lovely but it would be much better if we all know where we are going.

    Saturday, October 11, 2014 8:02 PM
  • I notice that the LS javascript library version 2.5.2.0 Nuget package has had 5,482 downloads in the week that it has been available. Whilst not huge, it is not insignificant either. So there is definitely quite a bit of LS consumption out there...

    Regards, Xander. My Blog

    Monday, October 13, 2014 9:03 PM
  • What an interesting stat!

    Thanks for sharing Xander.


    Keep rocking LS!
    Jan

    PS: have you seen app-stitch yet? It's a visually simple yet powerful way of designing business rules for Visual Studio LightSwitch apps.

    Monday, October 13, 2014 9:04 PM
  • I notice that the LS javascript library version 2.5.2.0 Nuget package has had 5,482 downloads in the week that it has been available. Whilst not huge, it is not insignificant either. So there is definitely quite a bit of LS consumption out there...

    Regards, Xander. My Blog

    I want that to be true more than anyone but I think it is only 109:

    http://www.nuget.org/packages/Microsoft.LightSwitch.Client.JavaScript.Runtime/

    However, I do a LOT of LightSwitch development and I did not update because I did not encounter any bugs that it fixed.


    Unleash the Power - Get the LightSwitch 2013 HTML Client / SharePoint 2013 book

    http://LightSwitchHelpWebsite.com

    Monday, October 13, 2014 9:48 PM
  • I wonder how the website stat relates to this stat then - my gut feel is that the 5,842 number would be closer to the truth?


    Regards, Xander. My Blog

    Monday, October 13, 2014 9:52 PM
  • Xander,

    I'm afraid that's the 'all-time' download count since first nuget release in May 2013.

    Josh

    Monday, October 13, 2014 10:01 PM
  • Thanks for clarifying Josh. Well, the overall number is still not insignificant :)

    Regards, Xander. My Blog

    Monday, October 13, 2014 10:04 PM
  • True.

    I'd even go so far as to say 110 since Tuesday is not insignificant - considering it's a manual update, fixes only a few minor bugs, and was announced only here in the forums.

    412 downloads for 2.5.1 is funny because that release had exactly zero change from 2.5.0 'VS2013 update 2'

    Regardless, I am happy about 2.5.2 release and hope to see small releases like this in the future continually.

    Josh

    Monday, October 13, 2014 10:17 PM
  • +1 from me - we need RAD

    look at XDEV 4 as an example - it is JAVA RAD:

    http://cms.xdev-software.de/content.php

    we had such with VB6 but now with .NET we have nothing like this...

    • Edited by Mad Rian Wednesday, October 15, 2014 8:51 AM
    Wednesday, October 15, 2014 7:21 AM
  • UPDATE:  after 21 days steady on the first page of this forum and with 237 votes, this UV suggestion remains in the top 5 suggestions for LS and is now in top 3 "Hot Ideas' for all of Visual Studio.

    Have a great day!

    Thursday, October 16, 2014 2:23 PM
  • 240! 

    Eric

    Thursday, October 16, 2014 3:54 PM
  • Just looked at the agenda - nothing explicitly pointing towards LightSwitch, although I can see at least 4-5 agenda points which might have some kind of relevance to our favourite data driven development tool.

    http://www.visualstudio.com/connect-event-vs

    Friday, October 17, 2014 11:47 PM
  • Did  anyone see this month the content roll up ?

    Always nice to have an overview of ongoing stuff.


    paul van bladel ==independent enterprise application architect== http://blog.pragmaswitch.com

    Saturday, October 18, 2014 8:12 AM
  • BUMP.

    Still no content roll-up for September.

    Tuesday, October 21, 2014 2:29 AM
  • Hi,

    No, I wonder why.

    Done some calculations and investigations and I think there are about 600-800 developers that uses LS.

    That's ok but the problem is that many are stuck in VS2010 and VS 2012.

    In VS2013 there are maybe like 200-250 left.

    I think many had a hard time, upgrading existing projects to VS2013 and when MS killed Silverlight then....You know the rest of the story.

    LS is a great product for us and for our customers but not for MS. They don't make any money here.

    Some of us uses Azure but many host on other IIS servers.

    I find it hard to believe that MS will continue to develop LS. LS will probably be available in VS2014 but then.....I don't know.

    I know I sound negative but it's hard to feel any positive feeling right now.

    I hope they will prove me wrong soon.


    Sven Elm


    • Edited by Sven Elm Tuesday, October 21, 2014 5:59 AM
    Tuesday, October 21, 2014 5:59 AM
  • You are right Sven, I think LS is dead...

    we have 3 Apps out there (VS2012 SL) and the only thing we can do is to hope they will work some time without Problems :-(

    robert

    Tuesday, October 21, 2014 6:06 AM
  • I think the decent thing for MS to do is to give us a decent reply to this thread. I mean really...?!

    If they are unable to give us information now - due to a no communication embargo until Nov 12 (for example) - then they should at least say "Don't worry people, we cannot share what you want with you now, but don't lose faith, you are in good hands with a good product with a great future and we will share with you what we can on Nov 12..." (or whenever they are able to do so).

    Ignoring a user voice request with this many votes and a big thread like this is simply not the way to win friends and influence people.

    Hopefully something will be forthcoming soon - good or bad. I still hold hope that it will be good though.


    Regards, Xander. My Blog

    Tuesday, October 21, 2014 6:08 AM
  • I believe MS is indirectly making money from LS in the same way as they are making money from all the other tools included in VS. Over and above the VS licensing fee, they indirectly make money from the OS, SQL Server, Azure, Etc products where they also get license fees. The more software products we create that utilizes the MS wider product range (and LS certainly does this) the better for MS.

    LS just adds another compelling tool into the wider compelling VS toolbox. So yes, I think they get something from it.


    Regards, Xander. My Blog

    Tuesday, October 21, 2014 6:15 AM
  • I can't believe we are soon going to mark one month since joshbooker posted this question with no MS response...

    This gives a very bad feeling so I can understand Sven and others...though still hoping and crossing my fingers...


    Marco

    Tuesday, October 21, 2014 7:13 AM
  • Hi Xander et al,

    Let's be honest, as far as LS is concerned, this is par for the course. It's no longer necessarily about a lack of information, but very much about what a total lack of reply implies in terms of the wilful disdain of someone in management towards a community of dedicated developers who ask for nothing more than an indication of whether they should be putting LS forward as an option for their clients.

    Frankly, it's an utter disgrace.


    Ian Mac

    Tuesday, October 21, 2014 7:48 AM
  • I think your right and the calculations tell the rest of the story plus how vendors have reacted in the past.. Further to notice how the development of LS takes place in a direction of Office 365 and Azure hosting Services, again said it before the is noting wrong with make money and profit. It is a risk every company must take and after a while you look at the balance and decide.
    I think everything how is active at this forum has and idea and answer about LS those qill confirm that LS is a great tool to build LOB apps.
    If you look at the development of what is left of vendors Silverlight is gone ther no update or other plans, why should they any way?.
    Breeze, Angular, Knockout Node these scripts dominate the world and every vendor will endorse that for the simple reason business. How difficult it is to combine these with out a hell of job  time and typing your fingers blue goes behind the idea of RAD.
    What happen't to Wavemaker 12 months ago is a example bye bye DOJO hello Angular, a lot of developers where left in the cold with a old no longer  supported stack. But I understand the answer from CIO Samir. The cost merging two stacks is to high there are to many risks to take.
    So with LS is there a difference if LS stay around not wird MS will introduce a Angular stack for LS or continue withe strategy towards Sharepoint & O365. In one of the channels there is a video with Beth interviewing some guy about scripting tools for Office that could explain a little more but is no more then playground
    The middle is if you have no updates no new  feature in a very fast changing world your stuck.

    Eric

    Tuesday, October 21, 2014 8:56 AM
  • +1 From me :)

    Lightswitch died when they killed silverlight, removing several developers who used the tool. 
    But all is not lost, just make lightswitch open source and silverlight open souce 

    Tuesday, October 21, 2014 2:20 PM
  • +1 From me :)

    Lightswitch died when they killed silverlight, removing several developers who used the tool. 
    But all is not lost, just make lightswitch open source and silverlight open souce 

    I wonder how long that  will work, as the world is on the move to Angular, Breeze etc. Find a developer(s) how want to spend time on the MLSJS Stack

    Eric

    Tuesday, October 21, 2014 3:18 PM
  • I'm willing to bet there are discussions at MSFT regarding this thread, with the VS team and supervisors asking for more resources to grow the product, and management hemming and hawing and wondering whether to take the product in a more Sharepoint and Office365 direction, and plenty of meetings and strategy sessions to come. 

    As a result, no decisions are made and the VS team *can't* reply yet, because they don't know what the direction will be either.  They know the radio silence is doing them no favors.  The Microsoft representatives who post on this board are on our side.

    The Lightswitch team can't be all that big and I doubt they're draining massive resources from MSFT's coffers.  I'm sure they want to see their hard work continued.  Considering the Silverlight client was (effectively) pulled they've done a fine job regrouping with the HTML client, rough edges on it notwithstanding.

    I'd be amazed if Lightswitch isn't extended in some respect.  As mentioned, the team cannot possibly be that large and expensive, especially compared with the SQL Server / ASP / Excel teams (never mind the OS division), and the product is one of the easiest ways to get an app on Azure, with the taxi meter running from that point forward.  Why on earth wouldn't Microsoft enhance that potential cash cow?

    Tuesday, October 21, 2014 4:07 PM
  • I agree that there is no reason to extend LS.  I have fairly extensive knowledge in the guts of LS.  There is really no reason that it could not even enhanced to work with WPF to make true local apps.

    Derek

    Tuesday, October 21, 2014 4:12 PM
  • I agree that there is no reason to extend LS.  I have fairly extensive knowledge in the guts of LS.  There is really no reason that it could not even enhanced to work with WPF to make true local apps.

    Derek

    Derek, you mean no reason not to extend LS, correct?

    Tuesday, October 21, 2014 4:25 PM
  • Oops yes I mean no reason NOT to extend :)

    Derek


    Tuesday, October 21, 2014 4:29 PM
  • I agree that there is no reason to extend LS.  I have fairly extensive knowledge in the guts of LS.  There is really no reason that it could not even enhanced to work with WPF to make true local apps.

    Derek

    I guess I also meant "There is really no reason that it could not even be enhanced to work with WPF to make true local apps."

    And I have even had coffee this morning :)


    Derek

    Tuesday, October 21, 2014 4:31 PM
  • I'm sure that would take a lot of work but would raise the possibility of using LightSwitch's structure to make Universal Apps with common middle and database tiers and different client front-ends for different form factors - phone, tablet, desktop & console.

    Switching to WPF for the front-end layout and keeping C# and VB.NET for all the programming makes much more sense to me than relying on JavaScript for programming the front-end yet keeping C#/VB for the middle-tier logic.


    Simon Jones
    If you found this post helpful, please "Vote as Helpful". If it actually answered your question, please remember to "Mark as Answer". This will help other people find answers to their problems more quickly.

    Tuesday, October 21, 2014 4:38 PM
  • Yes, the Universal apps target (and others) would make a great deal of sense.

    Ian Mac

    Tuesday, October 21, 2014 4:43 PM
  • I've always been surprised that they didn't go with WPF as a potential platform in the first place.  I'd have thought it would have made more sense than Silverlight.  Perhaps we can hope...

    Tuesday, October 21, 2014 4:44 PM
  • I agree that there is no reason to extend LS.  I have fairly extensive knowledge in the guts of LS.  There is really no reason that it could not even enhanced to work with WPF to make true local apps.


    Derek

    I guess I also meant "There is really no reason that it could not even be enhanced to work with WPF to make true local apps."

    And I have even had coffee this morning :)


    Derek

    On a completely different note, you had been working on a promising HTML client reporting control earlier this summer.  Have you completed it or put it on hiatus currently?

    Thanks, Allen

    Wednesday, October 22, 2014 12:50 AM
  • Just to keep the discussion going, here is my current LS feature request list based on my real world LS development projects:

    LS backend:

    1. Allow entities to be selectively included in the ServerApplicationContext but not in the exposed OData service
    2. Allow entity properties to be selectively included in the ServerApplicationContext but not in the OData service
    3. Allow user defined queries to return a subset of properties for optimization (although this might be difficult)
    4. Allow Table Value Functions (TVFs) to be imported from attached database data sources (similar to database views but with parameters)
    5. Expose access to the current Connection object inside the server side data pipeline to allow the same connection to be used for standard ADO operations (additional ADO operations not currently possible as creating a new Connection will cause blocking)
    6. Allow additional OData specific security configurations (see: OData Security Guidance)
    7. Keep pace with latest OData and Entity Framework versions
    8. Transient properties on entities (properties that are not loaded or saved, but will allow additional information to be passed from the client to the server, e.g. ChangePassword: bool, PasswordPlainText: string - set in client and allow passed password to be encrypted and saved on server side after which the values for these two properties will be cleared server side. There are other examples where this will be useful to).

    HTML Client:

    1. Multiple simultaneous units of work support (i.e. like Silverlight client main tabs)
    2. Allow multiple modules / clients per common backend project
    3. Use load on demand from the outset (e.g. lazy loading views/modules)
    4. Out of the box support for off-line scenarios
    5. Allow dynamic bound controls to be created at runtime (think user-defined fields)
    6. Allow partial screens/views
    7. Allow screens/views to also be hand coded using a simple templating language like Moustache or AngularJS that is aware of the context scope
    8. Allow all scripts to be minified at deployment time
    9. Allow dynamic custom entities (like every CRM system does)
    10. Allow full customizations of header/footer/left/right blocks (perhaps via the concept of a master layout page or partial views)
    11. Add support for an AngularJS App (the SPA war is over and AngularJS won)
    12. Dirty checking on a per screen basis (perhaps a configurable screen property) as the user can currently use the browser back button to exit a screen without any warning of losing changes

    Personally I do not have a huge need for WPF/Silverlight related technology anymore given the rise of Javascript as the de facto client side language, although IDE support for Javascript probably still needs to be improved however. We do have a large existing LS Silverlight application where the client will be migrated to HTML + Javascript once we know where MS is heading with LS.

    I do however appreciate that there are a large number of enterprise based WPF applications out there that can potentially make use of the LS OData backend so hopefully they will be catered for at the same time if the backend is further evolved.

    Just my 2c.


    Regards, Xander. My Blog


    • Edited by novascape Friday, October 31, 2014 11:00 PM
    Wednesday, October 22, 2014 11:50 PM
  • When the HTML Client was first being introduced in beta, it was included as a series of releases for Visual Studio 2012 CTP and RC before finally being released in VS2012RTM.  It was possible to follow the progress of the HTML client's development all during that time, seeing which new or improved features were being added with each release.  Given that VS14's release is only a few weeks away, and the latest CTP4 has msls.js 2.5.2 as its only notable change in LS, it's safe to say that none of those things mentioned will be available soon, if ever.  Microsoft's official response to that wishlist would be to have you submit a User Voice suggestion for voting.

    Because MS isn't likely to do any of those things listed, it's time for more people in the LightSwitch community to stop navel gazing and start pushing LightSwitch's limits, in order to turn it into the product you want it to be.  I admire the work novascape has done on his blog with custom TabControls and headers.  Kudos also should go out to the blog work of Paul Van Bladel, Jan van der Haegen, Xpert360, and Dale (blog.ofanitguy.com), to name only a few, for their work on advanced LightSwitch scenarios that push the envelope.

    Since, again, it's up to us to improve LightSwitch while MS is absent, let's see where we are with some of the suggestions you had for the HTML client:

    1. Multiple simultaneous units of work support (i.e. like Silverlight client main tabs)---available programmatically using "new msls.application.DataWorkspace()"
    2. Allow multiple modules / clients per common backend project--illustrated for non-Sharepoint clients at blog.ofanitguy.com
    3. Use load on demand from the outset (e.g. lazy loading views/modules)---already the case for entities, unclear what you mean by "views/modules"
    4. Out of the box support for off-line scenarios---possibly doable with Windows Azure Mobile Services for WinJS
    5. Allow dynamic bound controls to be created at runtime (think user-defined fields)--need more specifics
    6. Allow partial screens/views---currently achievable in LightSwitch using WinJS.Fragments or WinJS.Templates, as well as with AngularJS ng-include and AngularJS custom directives
    7. Allow screens/views to also be hand coded using a simple templating language like Moustache or AngularJS that is aware of the context scope--again, achievable with WinJS.Templates (with scope included) or AngularJS ng-include directive, but without native scope built-in
    8. Allow all scripts to be minified at deployment time---UserCode is minified into generatedAssets.js at deployment; other msls.js scripts come in minified formats already.
    9. Allow dynamic custom entities (like every CRM system does)---to do :)
    10. Allow full customizations of header/footer/left/right blocks (perhaps via the concept of a master layout page or partial views)--see novascape's blog :)
    11. Add support for an AngularJS App (the SPA war is over and AngularJS won)--a word about AngularJS..yes it is currently the SPA favorite.  AngularJS and LightSwitch will never be integrated unless LightSwitch is completely rewritten; it wouldn't even be recognizable because AngularJS and jQueryMobile do not mesh, not to mention LightSwitch's reliance on metadata scaffolding which is incompatible with AngularJS's DOM processing. In short, the LightSwitch way and the AngularJS way are too totally incompatible with each other.  That is not to say though, that AngularJS doesn't play nicely alongside LightSwitch, either as a custom control or as a connected application (shown for example in Michael Washington's blog and van Bladel's as well). 

    Thursday, October 23, 2014 3:17 AM
  • Great posts guys!  Let's do it!
    Thursday, October 23, 2014 3:52 AM
  • Will we have more idea after Nov12/13: http://www.visualstudio.com/en-us/connect-event-vs.aspx ? The carpet is moving but we don't know if the rug will be pulled from under us just yet.

    Microsoft is now a company that sells service subscriptions and devices or the updated version 'mobile and Cloud'. Windows as a platform is now a low priority based on user base (behind Android & iOS). Partner events are now all about selling O365 & Azure subscriptions so it seems that Business Partners rather than Technical partners are the focus now (yes with a small 'p').

    Microsoft are going to continue to do what they've always done . . . what is best for Microsoft. I appreciate that but I would also appreciate a heads up so that I can move ground before it drops away from under me. Isn't that the way you should treat a partner? Secrecy always surrounds Apple but traditionally we Microsoft developers have had roadmaps of some sort that give us clues & hints about where we need to be changing tracks. In this case the silence is deafening. Chief evangelist Beth Massi has been quoted as saying that she can't say anything because she wants to keep her job and a recent tweet exchange was hardly enlightening:

    • @BethMassi Is Lightswitch for the chop or are you no longer still on that team Beth?
    • @11thEarl I'm still on the Visual Studio team. We do a ton of stuff though, not just LS. :) Been doing a lot internally here lately
    • @BethMassi A cagey answer! There appears unrest on the forums, road-map requests et al but non-one responding. It's bad form, frankly!
    • @11thEarl I'm aware and escalated to mgmt. I go on a honeymoon and the LS world is ending ;-). We did release a NuGet update today BTW
    • @BethMassi Is it? That's what people seem to be thinking! Someone could have taken the trouble to respond; surely not too much to ask?
    • @11thEarl I agree. I am pushing and poking
    • @BethMassi Thanks Beth for your efforts as always it’s just a shame others need pushing and poking :-) Not to mention incredibly frustrating!

    What can you read into that  I wonder? Thanks for the crumb. We starving developers appreciate the slightest morsel. Our tent of shelter is in tatters and endless night looms ahead of us.

    Anyway back to WinJS Promises and the smoke rising above Satya Nadella's shoulders.


    Z A R D O Z

    Thursday, October 23, 2014 4:46 AM
  • Hey Zardoz,

    I'm sort of glad you posted that exchange; although it was public on Twitter, I battled a bit with re-posting it here even though it was obviously relevant.

    I must admit I was irritated by the 'LS World is ending ;-)' response at first, I could imagine Beth giving out a massive sigh as she posted it, but, given that we've been asking not unreasonable questions and receiving no answers, it just seemed a bit of a slap in the face at the time especially coupled with the crumbs thrown us by the release of a Nuget package which as far as I'm aware incorporated a couple of bug fixes!

    Beth has been a leader in evangelising this product in the past; tweets are probably not the best medium in which to gauge context but it's clear from the exchange that there was no chance of a definitive answer and that she is having to tread with care, while at the same time still advocating on our behalf. Frankly, I wouldn't like to be in the position where I'm stuck in the middle between developers and Management, with the one side haughtily refusing even to acknowledge the obvious and genuine concerns of the other.


    Ian Mac

    Thursday, October 23, 2014 8:42 AM
  • Quick response to LittleBobbyTables reply above:

    3. I mean loading screens and later modules (when we get modules) - in other words, only load what is required up front (but a nice to have I guess).

    5. perhaps related to custom entities - I want my users to be able to create user defined fields on existing entities and then be able to render those for editing. Currently I can return all those user-defined fields as an XML or JSON fragment in a single string property on that entity, de-serialize it into a javascript object, update the values and serialize back to that same string property (with dirty checking working), but have no easy way of dynamically rendering standard bound LS edit controls...

    8. Looking at a deployed solution it looks to me as if the screen javascript usercode files are referenced but not minimized?

    9. Solving 5 above solves this one too...

    ps. The last time we had this long radio silence from MS was just prior to the beta release of the HTML client. I recall Beth saying afterwards that it was so difficult seeing all the forum requests for information while she was unable to say anything about the great new feature coming... am I too optimistic to perhaps hope for a repeat of that scenario?

    Regards


    Regards, Xander. My Blog

    Thursday, October 23, 2014 9:06 AM
  • ... am I too optimistic to perhaps hope for a repeat of that scenario?


    Regards, Xander. My Blog

    Very probably :)

    I'm disappointed like everyone else there hasn't been information forthcoming from MS about LS. I take their lack of reply here at the forum as an overall negative for LightSwitch; on the other hand, if you Google "LightSwitch future" or "is LightSwitch dead?" you'll see this debate has gone for since 2011 when it was introduced.  It's also concerning that many of the LightSwitch luminaries have seemingly moved on, such as Beth, Huy and Justin.  Oh well, hopefully they're working on something new and awesome with vNext or Universal Apps.

    One thing I seriously have trouble understanding is why updates to LightSwitch HTML haven't included the newer versions of WinJS (now 3.1).  I mean, it's such low-hanging fruit--I've been unable to find anything that breaks when LS' winjs 1.0 is switched out to WinJS 3, and so much extra functionality comes with it. This ease of use is in stark contrast to LightSwitch ever becoming a native AngularJS application.  And WinJS, despite being open sourced, has one thing that everybody seems to want in LightSwitch: a roadmap.

    On the brighter side, I'm still eager to see what Syncfusion will include in their vol 3 release for LS, since they and C1 seem to be the only commercial vendors still developing for it.  It's also been nice to use the newer AngularJS controls in Wijmo5, KendoUI, etc., in LightSwitch.

    Thursday, October 23, 2014 5:07 PM
  • The comments are not directed against individuals . It's about the product and where it is today , and the question asked so many times farther . Everything is covered in silence with or without cause . Like submitting posts on the forum where everyone speaks is critical due to lack of response the result. Companies decide not to use it for some time , LS why do not they read the forum and that has no positive impression it makes the product piece and customers walking away . Sven wrote that he had calculated about 250 active developers, Ask how many remain about it, I have no idea. Certainly the vertical market will respond to LS and they pull the plug like Telerik has done in the past. I keep hoping but see dark clouds for LS in the future.

    Eric

    Thursday, October 23, 2014 6:09 PM
  • I agree with you.
    Thursday, October 23, 2014 8:11 PM
  • When LightSwitch is dead, the question is:
    What Microsoft has to offer for Web Mobile clients and RAD-System??

    Nothing !
    vNext is not ready and is not intended as a RAD-System.



    • Edited by J.Nord Friday, October 24, 2014 8:16 AM
    Friday, October 24, 2014 8:13 AM
  • +3 votes!
    Sunday, October 26, 2014 12:41 PM
  • The main question for me is:

    - What is the best RAD tool MS have to create custom ERP, CRM systems? 

    I now use LS with Silverlight OOB. This is Ok for a company a with 10 users but in a company of 10+ users with lots of data the published program is just to slow... If you compair it to Access.

    If I could publish it as a WPF application I would be the happiest man in the world!

    Monday, October 27, 2014 2:57 PM
  • +3 votes!

    Me too!

    Someone of MS tell us what's the future of LS Project, we need to wait great news or look elsewhere!

    For now new project with LS is in stand-by state, and I'm looking at WebAPI OData 4 with WPF/WinRT Desktop, HTML5+JS framework for Web & Cordova for Mobile.

    Monday, October 27, 2014 3:48 PM
  • Hi Josh, It seems like that Microsoft skipped this question. we should give up to give kiss of life to lightswitch. lightswitch is abondoned by Microsoft like a zombie. MS teached us sardonically that "MS is untrusted comrade".... LS developers should map a new road, otherwise we can be a zombie developer.

    • Edited by Nurkmez Monday, October 27, 2014 9:57 PM
    Monday, October 27, 2014 8:32 PM
  • I have been keeping a quiet eye on this thread for a while. Although there have been some great points made and voted on within it there have also been some negative and not very helpful ones also. At the first Town meeting I was one of the first people to ask what is happening with the product as it was helping us out no end (even if we had no literature or examples on what it could do) and 99% of the apps we created (and still are) are SilverLight based.

    Now we all know that during that meeting they stated that SilverLight still has it's place......but it doesnt now. This doesnt mean that LightSwitch is dead though. Yes, it has gone quiet and some of the usual suspects arent as chatty as they once were but does this mean that we should be getting the black tie out of the wardrobe? NO! The mere fact that so many people have voted for this and still write and read this forum shows that there is a place for LS. We should be singing it's praises on how much it helps and rewarding those who do their own blogs on how to Rock LS (you all know who I mean) and thanking those who have taken their time out to help us work a fantastic LOB application that doesnt really have any definitive documentation. It's positive talk and affirmation that will get the guys excited again and keep this brilliant eco system going.

    I have put my interest in on the Future Decoded event on the 12th November and I recommend that all of you do too. Even if I am wrong and LS is a pleasant bump in the MS journey it's a great place to complain, picket and yell at those who could possibly get it back.

    Rant over, thanks for listening.


    If you found this post helpful, please mark it as helpful. If by some chance I answered the question, please mark the question as answered. That way you will help more people like me :)

    Tuesday, October 28, 2014 2:35 PM
  • Agree and great words. LS rocks! 😄

    Sven Elm

    Tuesday, October 28, 2014 3:26 PM

  • Rant over, thanks for listening.



    Not a rant I'd say, but a well-reasoned post.  I also think LS has plenty of gas in the tank, provided Microsoft doesn't completely drop the ball.

    For a framework that had to switch on the fly from being Silverlight-focused to HTML, they've done damned well.  And as I mentioned before I can't imaging LS is costing Microsoft very much to run-- I believe there's one person doing part time work on documentation, based on a post from them a while back.  So it's not like payroll is through the roof here.

    Lightswitch does have sharp edges that could use some smoothing.  But it's a great entrant in the small/midsized LOB arena for apps that every company could use, either for their main product or for internal use.  There isn't a company out there that couldn't use Lightswitch in some capacity.

    It would be nice to have better documentation.  The regulars here have done a phenomenal job filling in those gaps.  It would be nice to have a smoother HTML client, better looking and a bit easier to work with.  It's too easy to do code-behind, unorganized development with the various event handler wizards.  Unit-testable code isn't a priority in Lightswitch. 

    All that said, you can do quite a bit out of the box and with a little care and planning you can write LS apps that solve a lot of needs, quickly and efficiently.  Hard to believe Microsoft would flush that and I doubt they will.

    Tuesday, October 28, 2014 3:33 PM
  • Well said. I also think that droping a good product would be a strange move. Sure it need some fixing but the hard bits are done. Ok, switching Silverligt to something else may be some work but when it's done and the html client get a newer tux I'm happy.

    Sven Elm

    Tuesday, October 28, 2014 3:43 PM
  • I love the positive spirit in this post today!

    Obviously I want to have public announcements about where the LS team is heading as well, but today there's no way I could create applications as fast as I do if LS was not a part of the solution, and I am grateful for that as is.


    Keep rocking LS!
    Jan

    PS: have you seen app-stitch yet? It's a visually simple yet powerful way of designing business rules for Visual Studio LightSwitch apps.

    Tuesday, October 28, 2014 3:43 PM
  • I think one of the bugbears in the IT world is if something works or works really well people stay quiet because they expect it to happen; but when it breaks they shout from the rooftops that the world will end and we're all going to hell. Now, as professionals we should recognise this and not become the same as them and give credit where it is due. Yes, it would be nice to have it all mapped out but just because it isnt right now doesnt mean that it never will. There are people out there creating fabulous things with LS without instructions etc and a lot of them are generous enough to help others for free (some dont but hey, people need to eat\drink\live). This needs to be celebrated.

    If I am wrong then fine, I will still have a tool that I am creating great apps to use within the business and for that I say thanks MS :)


    If you found this post helpful, please mark it as helpful. If by some chance I answered the question, please mark the question as answered. That way you will help more people like me :)

    Tuesday, October 28, 2014 4:00 PM
  • I also think the LS user base is much larger than can be seen from activity on this forum.  As with many online communities there tends to be a silent majority who benefit greatly from the more active members and that wait patiently for things to evolve.

    I’ve used LS since the first beta.  It was a rough diamond, but it was the great community with Microsoft employees actively engaged that convinced me to stick with it.  So much so, that I started a new company two and a half years ago on the BizSpark program and have had many successful LS projects delivered. 

    LS is at times a strange beast that’s changed it spots a few times.  It benefits such as being highly extendable, SharePoint integration and Office 365 have to been balanced by the Silverlight client’s retirement and the HTML clients increased need for coding vs RAD. Many of its shortfalls have now been plugged by the community and active team members from Microsoft. We are currently working on a major project which we’ve extended LS heavily due to the great flexibility of the framework.

    Without the community I’m convinced LS would only be half of the product it is now. Please Microsoft interact with the community that you helped form. LightSwitch screams potential and there are many passionate developers (including us quiet ones) who wish to help you reach it.

    As one of the (now mostly) silent members I voted on user voice early on and will continue to watch this thread with bated breath. 


    John

    Tuesday, October 28, 2014 11:28 PM
  • Super post John!

    I too believe the community (actively engaged Microsoft employees included) is THE reason why LS has succeeded.

    I too believe there is a huge majority of LS users who are silent and we'd love to hear from more of you!

    Best of luck with your projects and company!

    Have a great day!

    Cheers,

    Josh

    Wednesday, October 29, 2014 12:35 AM
  • Yes . . . LightSwitch 2011 was initially marketed to 'Citizen Developers'. What were they thinking? This was not Access 1.0 and, even then, the possibilities for LightSwitch as a serious developer tool were obvious. Next they gave up on stand-alone LightSwitch and eventually gave LightSwitch a future beyond Silverlight by quietly creating an HTML (mobile) Client option. With Visual Studio 2013.3 the development environment and stability improved markedly to the point where I have day-to-day confidence that the tool will not let me down. It has become predictable in its behaviour and, after on-going frustration in the early days, I now find myself productive and increasingly aware of the opportunities this flexible approach delivers. A whole new world is opening up.

    Over here in New Zealand the Azure option has not made much sense until this week. Data-centres have just come online in neighbouring Australia so that now makes the Cloud option viable for us. However being able to target Server Web-role, O365 and Azure still has huge appeal. I would hate to lose any of those three options. The LightSwitch name can change but I hope the overall strengths of the tool aren't lost or it's capability diminished in any way. The more you use LightSwitch the more you appreciate both it and the great work of the community leaders who introduce new ideas and approaches and help lead us all through new features. They also give us real-world insight into how we can take advantage of enhancements in each new release. I do feel that poor marketing and mixed messages have hurt LightSwitch, despite the great work by Beth Massi & other individuals at Microsoft and in the community.

    Some of us are doom & gloom & some of us are super-optimistic. Both camps will have their followers and valid logical reasons to expect positive and negative outcomes. What I would say is that I'm enjoying creating SPAs the LightSwitch way but if it disappears my future will be retooling & creating SPAs in another way. The web is now my platform of choice and I'm quite happy to use Microsoft back-end services, databases and front-end devices . . . along with all the other options. LightSwitch helped make choosing the Microsoft options a no-brainer. Please let me continue walking down that track.


    Z A R D O Z

    Wednesday, October 29, 2014 1:20 AM
  • As regards mostly silent members (like me) I think that lot of people is not english speaking too (again like me) so it's easier for them/us all to be learning lurkers.

    I recently started to answer to some relatively easy questions about problems I faced before cause I know how difficult is to find samples/info to adapt to real world and maybe complex applications, but I'm not able to give valuable comments on a great post like this...

    That's why I'm very grateful to all of you who are sharing suggestions on this thread and to all main contributors for their help on the forum.

    I'm a .net developer , never faced js/ajax/html until one year ago, starting to focus on LS a few months ago I could publish in production just one quite complex LS app but I have a lot of ideas, LS is very powerful, and could be more powerful, so I'm hoping to use it as my main tool in the future.

    As a side note I noticed that Dave Kidders' recent survey is not sticky anymore...I think this one could be a better survey, isn't it?

    Thank you, have a nice day.


    Marco

    Wednesday, October 29, 2014 7:13 AM
  • To me, Lightswitch HTML could be to Web development what VB 1.0 was to windows development back in the early 90s.

    Currently, the tools for JS/HTML5 and associated server side development are quite primitive although most are free.

    Lightswitch HTML to me seems like it could be absolutely amazing if it received a significant influx of support from MSFT. One of the features I'd love to see is pluggable UI templating so that the UI could be based on Angular or whatever comes next. Another feature would for the detail picker to be searchable. I have update 2 and the searchable feature is not really working for me.

    The fact that the progress is slow hampers adoption of the technology by many teams. It's hard to be an evangelist for it if its future is uncertain.


    • Edited by CostasZ Wednesday, October 29, 2014 8:17 PM
    Wednesday, October 29, 2014 8:15 PM
  • I get that things can sound a bit negative on this thread.

    To be clear; less to do with the product, more to do with the dismissive lack of acknowledgment. I can't believe anyone on here does not find that galling, to say the least.

    On a lighter and hopefully brighter note, at least this shows there is some external investment going on. Well done Syncfusion, some preview HTML 'prettiness'!


    Ian Mac

    Thursday, October 30, 2014 8:33 AM
  • BOO!
    Friday, October 31, 2014 11:30 AM
  • Just added point 8 to my LS Server side wishlist above:

    Transient properties on entities (properties that are not loaded or saved, but will allow additional information to be passed from the client to the server, e.g. ChangePassword: bool, PasswordPlainText: string - set in client and allow passed password to be encrypted and saved on server side after which the values for these two properties will be cleared server side. There are other examples where this will be useful to).

    It it would be nice to pass additional information as part of the entity so that the save pipeline on the server side can act upon values in those properties. Perhaps an optional generic Dictionary or generic Tag type property on an Entity is all that we need to accomplish this instead of actual individual properties being declared....

    I know we can use a WebAPI to do some of what I propose here, but that would be a separate save command outside of the initial unit of work transaction.

    This can easily be done with a RIA service entity, but the point is to try and get this functionality out of the box.

    Just a thought...


    Regards, Xander. My Blog

    • Edited by novascape Friday, October 31, 2014 11:08 PM
    Friday, October 31, 2014 11:06 PM
  • I agree completely! This is a very unprofessional and frustrating thing for Microsoft to do to their developers.
    Wednesday, November 5, 2014 3:27 PM
  • This question has been created with over 300 votes for 2 months in forum, The status is Unanswered.

    Somebody still wishes to put on the agenda LS  at http://www.visualstudio.com/connect-event-vs on 12 October. But There is nothing about LightSwitch in agenda.

    I found new framework to share with you. You can look at.

    http://www.aspnetboilerplate.com/

    Thursday, November 6, 2014 6:39 AM
  • HTML5 can't do what Silverlight can do in OOB mode nor can HTML5 gain full access to most local resources.  I write applications for "real people" that are NOT computer literate (read can barely turn on a computer).  HTML5 does NOT address these types of people at all because it's firmly planted IN THE SANDBOX and all the limitations and issues around that.  My users do NOT want to see a "Back or Forward" button ... it only "confuses them".  They don't want a bunch of icons or browser buttons or popup blockers kicking in, nor any type of "configuration" setting because they simply don't understand them.  

    Their goals are to get a job done as quickly as possible, they don't spend days "re-sizing" their window, they don't even want or care about window size ... so all this wonderful technology I have helping me manage control size and placement is completely wasted on them ... and that's a good thing --- most end user want it a single size as big as possible.  The technology has been "Shaped" by the tiny set of user that want or care about sizing - and this is the tragedy.  I have no idea where this obsession about "sizing" came from, I can only gather it was "advertising" related for those that build web sites with endless ads popping up and living is various areas of a screen that MUST BE SEEN at all times.  Well, that's great, but that's NOT my audience and I feel sorry for any developer that has been tasked to work in such a dead end environment (spam developers).

    So, I should be running "click once" Windows forms apps right - direct access to SQL and support for web services?  Well, I would, except Microsoft left that process for dead long ago, have baked implementations/deployments with ridiculous restrictions.  Good idea, but once again not fully developed.  My goals are simple and have been for the past 15 years:

    1.  Server deployed applications
    2.  Easy to update/publish
    3.  Control application environment
    4.  Can run on different platforms (iOS, Windows, etc.)


    Silverlight still is the closest technology to my rather simple goals, sure it has issues, mostly around Visual Studio and debugging but that seems to be the "norm" for any Microsoft technology platform ... is there anything worse than Visual Studio in terms of critical bugs that can render projects DOA?  Sadly, not ... but HTML5 is definitely NOT the future, not by any means ... what too many compromises and restrictions for it to be a serious technology to build applications for real businesses (LOB).

    I think many are finally realizing that going back to real client based applications is what is going to work, sure it means building applications specific to platforms ... but those applications work, and they work better for end users and they are much easier to maintain.
    Thursday, November 6, 2014 1:55 PM
  • Hey everybody, 

    It's been six weeks and one day since this post and the related UserVoice suggestion was made.

    The UV suggestion is currently #2 most requested in Lightswitch category.

    In case you voted in these forums and did not vote on the uservoice suggestion, please vote here:

    http://visualstudio.uservoice.com/forums/121579-visual-studio/suggestions/6479912-provide-lightswitch-product-roadmap-recurring-to

    I'm not holding my breath, but I do remain hopeful that a big announcement is imminent.

    Have a great day!

    Josh


    • Edited by joshbooker Thursday, November 6, 2014 6:45 PM
    Thursday, November 6, 2014 6:43 PM
  • Today is 12 October. No answer from M$.....
    Wednesday, November 12, 2014 9:26 AM
  • Business has not opened in NY on Nov 12 as yet :)

    Regards, Xander. My Blog

    Wednesday, November 12, 2014 9:28 AM
  • Today is 12 October. No answer from M$.....

    GMT -5  http://wwp.greenwichmeantime.com/time-zone/usa/new-york/time/

    Wednesday, November 12, 2014 11:47 AM
  • Hi,

    Is there any word for lightswitch future in http://www.visualstudio.com/connect-event-live-vs?

    Thanks

    Wednesday, November 12, 2014 8:14 PM
  • The big connect event announcements are:

    1) .NET is open source, ASP.NET 5 is open source - can build your own

    2) Visual Studio has a new free edition called 'Community' - compares to Professional in features - VS extensions are supported.

    3) Visual Studio 2015 Preview public release today - contains LS but nothing new, AFAIK.

    Nothing that would sufficiently explain a complete lack of comm and a complete lack of advancement on LS backlog items over the past couple months, In my humble opinion.

    Wednesday, November 12, 2014 8:36 PM
  • I'm trying to be positive about what we know so far... and the main take away there for me is that LS is now essentially FREE if you qualify within the bounds of the VS Community Edition rules (i.e. open source development OR up to 5 developers working on commercial software within an organisation). There should be a huge pool of developers that fall within those bounds I would think.

    That should surely contribute to the adoption of LS as a tool, which would benefit LS as a whole.

    Perhaps there are more announcements relevant to us to come from the remainder of conference or at least form the LS team now.


    Regards, Xander. My Blog

    • Edited by novascape Wednesday, November 12, 2014 9:28 PM
    Wednesday, November 12, 2014 9:27 PM
  • https://twitter.com/bethmassi/status/532654645454192640
    Wednesday, November 12, 2014 10:21 PM
  • https://twitter.com/bethmassi/status/532654645454192640

    ..but the thing is that LS is not included in the community edition; I just installed it to check ('cause I wondered what the hell am I paying for MSDN Professional now?)

    It would have been nice potentially to have LS in the free edition, since it might have garnered more amateur developer adoption, given its poor reception from the professional development community.

    Overall it's an impressive set of new features in VS 2015, however, even the SharePoint CBA application template is not mentioned as evolving, which is a little surprising.  If there was any doubt before that LS is low priority currently for MS, the Connect() event should make it perfectly clear.

    Wednesday, November 12, 2014 10:35 PM
  • @Allen: but it explicitly states that LS *is* included in the Community Edition here:

    Develop LightSwitch and Cloud Business Apps using Visual Studio Community 2013

    I've not had time to install the community edition as yet, but if what you are saying is correct, what are we missing?


    Regards, Xander. My Blog

    Wednesday, November 12, 2014 10:43 PM
  • I haven't tried Community Edition either.

    Says here that LS is an option in 'WebAPI feed'?

    https://twitter.com/VSLightSwitch/status/532570022892154880

    I suppose they mean Web Platform Installer (WebPI)

    VS2015 preview is nice, but nothing new that I can find in LS tooling.  I agree it's a shame (to say the least) that there is nothing new announced for LS.  As if a major change in .net means all progress must stop and zero comm from team should be understandable. 

    They are touting that VS extensions work in Community edition - why not announce support for LS control extensions that Target: MobileWeb?

    I cannot disagree with your assessment, Allen.  Surely, with two months of quiet time to prep, if there was anything to announce on the LS front, they would have been ready to post at noon when the 2015 news broke.  Instead we get a Community Edition post on the LS blog.

    Hard to believe a free edition will contribute more adoption than zero comm and zero advancement will take away.

    If this state of affairs keeps up, I don't see any of LS' biggest proponents still around in a month, let alone this time next year when LS may or may not benefit from .NET 2015 bits.

    Let's maintain hope for one more day, maybe they'll open source all the build stuff and we can get on with allowing LS to continue being the best RAD tool for cloud and Office365.


    • Edited by joshbooker Wednesday, November 12, 2014 11:13 PM
    Wednesday, November 12, 2014 11:11 PM
  • I haven't tried Community Edition either.

    Says here that LS is an option in 'WebAPI feed'?

    https://twitter.com/VSLightSwitch/status/532570022892154880

    I suppose they mean Web Platform Installer (WebPI)

    VS2015 preview is nice, but nothing new that I can find in LS tooling.  I agree it's a shame (to say the least) that there is nothing new announced for LS.  As if a major change in .net means all progress must stop and zero comm from team should be understandable. 

    They are touting that VS extensions work in Community edition - why not announce support for LS control extensions that Target: MobileWeb?

    I cannot disagree with your assessment, Allen.  Surely, with two months of quiet time to prep, if there was anything to announce on the LS front, they would have been ready to post at noon when the 2015 news broke.  Instead we get a Community Edition post on the LS blog.

    Hard to believe a free edition will contribute more adoption than zero comm and zero advancement will take away.

    If this state of affairs keeps up, I don't see any of LS' biggest proponents still around in a month, let alone this time next year when LS may or may not benefit from .NET 2015 bits.

    Let's maintain hope for one more day, maybe they'll open source all the build stuff and we can get on with allowing LS to continue being the best RAD tool for cloud and Office365.


    I plan to stay around :)

    LightSwitch is not being discontinued or anything, it is in Visual Studio 2015.

    It is the fastest way to create modern application even if I am using AngularJS.


    Unleash the Power - Get the LightSwitch 2013 HTML Client / SharePoint 2013 book

    http://LightSwitchHelpWebsite.com

    Thursday, November 13, 2014 12:01 AM
  • @Allen: but it explicitly states that LS *is* included in the Community Edition here:

    Develop LightSwitch and Cloud Business Apps using Visual Studio Community 2013

    I've not had time to install the community edition as yet, but if what you are saying is correct, what are we missing?


    Regards, Xander. My Blog

    Oh, thanks for that blog post.  I don't install the November update, just the Community edition.  Maybe the Office Developer tools update has the template.  It's possible I missed it, but I looked in the usual places I know for it and couldn't find it.

    I still think having LS in the free edition will be helpful overall for its longevity, for what it's worth.  For the novice developer, those who'd also be prone to installing the community edition, LS could be very useful to them.  For others including myself, LS is still a nice tool in a larger arsenal of development resources.  I personally am looking forward to the evolution of vNext, EF7's extended application sphere, and Xamarin.Forms.  If it wasn't for Xamarin, I think XAML support would have really suffered in the current cloud-first and mobile-first emphasis, but for now it remains very useful.  And if XAML doesn't die, SilverLight cannot every really die (not to mention its other current lease on life with Windows Phone 8), and if you don't believe me, look at the recent release and updates for WPF....another "dead" technology that is now being shown some MS love.  So what goes around comes around, in a sense. Perhaps this will be true in the future for SilverLight, and in extension, LightSwitch.

    Thursday, November 13, 2014 12:33 AM

  • Derek

    Thursday, November 13, 2014 12:52 AM
  • *** BUMP ***

    Connect is now behind us, surely the communication embargo can now be lifted?


    Regards, Xander. My Blog

    Monday, November 17, 2014 9:53 PM
  • Xander, who is the connect? Nobody answers my simple question about supporting odata v4 . MS gave up WCF RIA Service, BUT LS core architecture still based on that technology. on the future that will be problem for integration.
    Monday, November 17, 2014 11:30 PM
  • I wonder if we're waiting for the IE12 team to reach another milestone??? There is some core tech like Promises that looks like being supported by IE12 and various other significant improvements will positively impact HTML Client app performance and capabilities. TypeScript playing a bigger part seems like a no-brainer in future LightSwitch releases but what else would that entail? We could potentially be looking at duckies running around in all directions but eventually forming into a line ahead of any LightSwitch / Cloud Bus app etc. announcements / releases. It would be understandable if the waiting is related to that sort of thing.

    What would be nice at this point though would be a high level statement related to the future of the LightSwitch approach generally. It's in VS2015.1, which in itself is a massive relief, but the current situation is paralysing decision making or promotion of solutions based on or around LightSwitch because of the uncertainty about Microsoft's commitment to maintaining and improving it to keep up with new tech like OData releases.


    Z A R D O Z

    Tuesday, November 18, 2014 12:27 AM
  • Connect was the event Microsoft held last week when it announced some news about the future of its development tools, such as the open sourcing of the .NET Core and the release of VS 2015 Preview.

    You can find out more about it and watch the sessions at Channel 9. http://aka.ms/connect

    I watched most of the events and I don't think LightSwitch was mentioned once.


    Simon Jones
    If you found this post helpful, please "Vote as Helpful". If it actually answered your question, please remember to "Mark as Answer". This will help other people find answers to their problems more quickly.

    Tuesday, November 18, 2014 4:54 PM
  • It feels that we are all leftovers and left in the dark.


    Sven Elm

    Tuesday, November 18, 2014 7:06 PM
  • I advice http://www.aspnetboilerplate.com. It can be a light in darkness.
    Tuesday, November 18, 2014 9:22 PM
  • To clarify, the reason the survey isn't a sticky anymore is that participation greatly drops off after the initial surge.  Thanks to all that took the survey!  FYI, the survey is a byproduct of our new CEO guiding us to become passionate about our customers (some of us were to begin with, but now we have public reason to be).  As a career SDET (aka tester) my job has always had some semblance of "customer advocate".  I'm pleased to say now that "customer" is the primary word in my job description (even though "Test" isn't in there anymore) as my title is Senior Software Engineer, but my specialization is "Customer Experiences and Insights".  Please continue to express your questions or concerns on this ot any thread.  Whether you believe it or not, we are listening.

    David Kidder | Senior SDET | Microsoft | LightSwitch

    Wednesday, November 19, 2014 5:48 AM
    Moderator
  • @Dave, what I simply want to know is:

    a) Does LS have a future over and above "maintenance mode"?

    b) If yes to (a) then where is the current version of LS going?

    c) And where is LS vNext going?

    I split (b) and (c) into two questions as I'm assuming that if LS has a future, the current version will hopefully continue to evolve whilst you are hopefully planning and working on the vNext version.

    In other words, we need this information for our own planning. 


    Regards, Xander. My Blog

    Wednesday, November 19, 2014 5:54 AM
  • Or at the very least give us a real status update.

    Regards, Xander. My Blog


    • Edited by novascape Wednesday, November 19, 2014 9:12 AM
    Wednesday, November 19, 2014 5:56 AM
  • Hey Dave,

    Nice to know that the 'Softies like yourself are paying attention.  I think the killer app for a lot (not all) of us would be WPF integration.  HTML5 has thrown many of us into waters way beyond our ability to cope, and the pace of change in that universe is simply debilitating.  The JavaScript world is intensely faddish, and learning a new language as well as half a dozen frameworks is seriously more time than it's worth.  The rate of iteration on JS libraries actually increases technical debt, which is the opposite of what LightSwitch is about.

    Throwing some blue sky ideas out there, I can't help but wonder if the next iteration of LightSwitch capabilities would instead be to make it capable of transforming UML/BPML/etc... into LSML/MSIL and C#/VB partials.  Admittedly, writing the validators is a pain, but there's been work done in the past in Visio which has handled that, and the continuous debug in VS for grammar-driven languages like C# and VB is probably more complex in many ways.

    I would love to see Microsoft take the LightSwitch Model Driven Development approach extended further up the MD* stack and possibly get to the point where we can have something like what I call "MIDAS" - Model Integrated Design & Architecture of Software.  In MIDAS, declarative languages are used to define software structure, grammatical languages are used for executable specifications and both are round-tripped through XMI representations of the design, allowing deeper integration with software modelling tools, improved documentation capabilities and the ability to render the design diagrammatically.  I understand that Visual Studio and the .NET framework are full of DSL's for describing various pieces of the puzzle (EF, XAML, WPF, WCF, App and Web config files, build manifests, project files, etc).  But that richness is not really surfaced to average users AS a model, so people don't really think about the capabilities of the .NET framework in that manner.

    As for existing capabilities in LightSwitch, I'd just like things to be broadened and opened up a bit more.  Let us use all of the saucy goodness of EF.  Give us the ability to manage .LSML files outside the continuously compiled model so we can fix things if they're broken.  And if you're going to deliver HTML as a client option, implement some higher level abstractions that let us interact with the HTML DOM in a more user-friendly manner, without having to manage data-binding declaratively (which is one of the things I loved about the Silverlight client).  Generally speaking - less plumbing, more simplification of the coding that IS required would see me singing LightSwitch's praises even more so than I currently do.

    Anyway - I think the main point is that I love the concept of LS.  The HTML5 implementation has been disappointing, but the model driven nature of LightSwitch still gets me excited.  A slightly less proprietary model structure/grammar in .LSML files would be nice, but I'm pragmatic enough to know that Microsoft will be Microsoft when it comes to those kinds of decisions.  If Microsoft wants to prove me wrong and open source the LS code-gen engine, I'm happy to eat my hat. ;)

    Keep up the good work, and remember that we're only cranky because we love the fundamental promise of LightSwitch and we just want it to become the incredible tool we can see in our own magic 8-balls.

    Cheers

    Jeremy


    Wednesday, November 19, 2014 7:45 AM
  • @Jeremy: +1K from me.


    paul van bladel ==independent enterprise application architect== http://blog.pragmaswitch.com

    Wednesday, November 19, 2014 7:49 AM
  • ...but my specialization is "Customer Experiences and Insights".  Please continue to express your questions or concerns on this ot any thread.  Whether you believe it or not, we are listening

    Dave, Thanks for your reply.  We appreciate that you are listening, but frankly listening at this late date is not enough.  This thread asks a simple yes or no question which remains unanswered after nearly 3 months.  In that time there have be zero LS blog posts, and aside from few bug fixes in 2.5.2, zero change in LS.

    I will restate the question, hoping in your customer focus, you will find it advantageous to answer in fewer than 3 more months.

    Can we have another Town Hall and detailed road map, please?

    Have a great day!

    TIA,

    Josh

    Wednesday, November 19, 2014 12:27 PM
  • here is the voice from the opposite part of the world just want to tell you that u,MS, are betraying your loyals here.  It takes time to start learning something, and for LS you pave very beautiful dreams for many developers, and finally it seems to everyone that dreams are fading.  Silent is not always golden, many people here want to know yes or no.  IMHO LS is going to be frozen zombie in VS2013 community & 15, if the crowd happy with this cute zombie, he will transform into human again. if not,  he will be prosecuted and rest in final peace.

    sorry for my eng.

    Wednesday, November 19, 2014 4:01 PM
  • You know what Josh et al?

    I'm fed up to the back teeth with this. I think under the circumstances, Dave Kidder was brave to step into the fray, but ultimately though well intentioned, his post does nothing to alleviate what frankly is now a grievance.

    What Dave's post did do though is to mention the driving force behind it, namely one part of the vision of the CEO. Someone rightly replied that should the CEO see this thread and read it (and be serious about customer focus), then he would be horrified.

    Obviously the Team are being held back by management. So here's the deal. I'm going to put this CEO's customer focus theory to the test.

    Directly to LS Management: This thread will be posted in its entirety such that it comes directly to the attention of your CEO Satya Nadella. If he means what he says, he will be truly shocked at how the LS Team has been shackled, to the detriment of their customers.

    We've tried, patiently, to get answers to simple questions. In three months there has been not an acknowledgement, even less a response and yet this thread has countless votes and is consistently at the top of user voice. Obviously, we can't get these answers from the point in the chain we are targeting. Customer redress options in these circumstances are clear.

    Go to the top.


    Ian Mac

    Thursday, November 20, 2014 6:01 PM
  • Done!

    Ian Mac

    Thursday, November 20, 2014 6:14 PM
  • It is really hard to understand why the LS Team is shying away from replying on this thread. Guys you have done a fantastic job by creating a tool like LS we all appreciate it by our heart. It’s your product so you have rights to decide what you want to do with it.

    But there are many people like us using your product and all we want to know is the roadmap, so that we can decide whether or not we should continue using it. I don’t think this is such a difficult question to answer.

    Please reply.


    Divyang Vyas

    Friday, November 21, 2014 5:41 AM
  • I already know why the silence:

    - For the silverlight will add the WPF client as default

    - For HTML 5 will add the ExtJS as the standard for developing LOB applications to desktop/mobile

    I'm sure of it :)

    Friday, November 21, 2014 4:49 PM
  • @Marden - those suggestions would be powerful extensions and satisfy most LS developers I would think.

    With a seemingly renewed energy around WPF from MS you may just be spot on with the WPF part. Not sure about whether MS would support ExtJs directly, but that would be nice. Would be interesting to see how they would integrate ExtJS with LS...

    I'm hoping for some backend love as well... we need to be able to ensure that the OData services can scale and we need the ability to have entities that are used in the ServerApplicationContext that are not exposed via OData. We also need the ability to shape OData exposed entities without having to resort to RIA domain services. We need to be able to cache non-volatile entities/queries at the OData service endpoint. We need exposure of the ADO Connection in the pipeline so that can execute native ADO commands when required, without having to create a new Connection which does not work with LS. it would be nice to have the ability to write native ADO queries for queries where we need to tune performance.


    Regards, Xander. My Blog

    Friday, November 21, 2014 10:25 PM
  • Hi,

    Is this thread dead now?

    Like to keep it alive but maby the silence from MS did it.


    Sven Elm

    Monday, November 24, 2014 7:59 PM
  • I agree, but i don't expect anything after 3 months.

    VS2015 is packed and on the trailer to the shop in a few weeks no LS news inside as what i read


    Eric

    Monday, November 24, 2014 8:55 PM
  • The complete lack of transparency/communication/software updates can mean one of two things:

    1. Lightswitch is moving to maintenance mode (since it is still in VS 2015)

    2. Lightswitch is getting a major upgrade, but every employee has been forced to be hush hush about it to create this big unveiling. (I believe Beth Massi might have alluded to this in an interview not long ago).

    Either way the end result is completely unsatisfactory.  We are not school children that need to wait for Christmas to get a present, or need to be sheltered from some harsh news of the real world.

    What we need is information to make decisions on our projects.  If that information can't be provided then I probably done with MS development stack.  

    Tuesday, November 25, 2014 7:31 PM
  • Yes. I think you are right, but I bet it's the first thing. I hope I'm wrong though. I think we will here some news soon.

    Sven Elm

    Tuesday, November 25, 2014 7:51 PM
  • It is totally in maintenance mode.  If it wasn't, you would see people like Justin Anderson or Huy Nguyen in here responding to questions and comments (not just this thread).  Dave Kidder pops in now and then but it doesn't seem like he wants to say much.  No disrespect intended, but let's face it, the people supporting this forum on a regular basis are not Justin, Huy, or Dave. 
    Tuesday, November 25, 2014 8:53 PM
  • There is one other option over and above the two mentioned a few posts up:

    The LS team could still be working through the recent survey feedback and planning where to go with LS vNext and they have not concluded that planning and hence are not saying anything as yet.

    The result of this planning (total speculation only) could of course end up with either of the options mentioned above (1/ maintenance or 2/ a worthwhile vNext) and we will have to wait.

    I do question the lack of transparency like everyone else does, as it seems to be counter customer focussed to me.


    Regards, Xander. My Blog

    Tuesday, November 25, 2014 9:25 PM
  • @Xander

    I do agree with Xander that a third possibility the future of Lightswitch is still being planned. But that in some ways would be even more distasteful when a simple statement stating this could alleviate some developer frustrations.

    Tuesday, November 25, 2014 9:35 PM
  • Is this thread dead now?

    I still think our voices count.

    I'm going to visit and post my voice in this thread until we get answers.

    //Sven


    Sven Elm

    Monday, December 1, 2014 3:57 PM
  • Can we see Survey result?
    Monday, December 1, 2014 4:25 PM
  • I don't think the thread is dead. I agree with Xander and others. I think they're analyzing the survey results and deciding where do they (+we) go from here, but LS obviously does not have the priority ASP.NET MVC has.

    We might be a smaller community, but a powerful one, and proved to make great suggestions and contributions to prior, current and future releases. For that, we deserve a simple answer about what are they doing, even if it's not the roadmap or a Town hall date, just yet.

    By now, Microsoft should know.


    Nicolás Lope de Barrios
    If you found this post helpful, please "Vote as Helpful". If it actually answered your question, please remember to "Mark as Answer". This will help other people find answers to their problems more quickly.

    Monday, December 1, 2014 6:17 PM
  • I have asked a simple question whether LS will support ODATA V4 or not to David Kidder via twitter for 6 days.but no answer?

    • Edited by Nurkmez Monday, December 1, 2014 8:03 PM
    Monday, December 1, 2014 8:02 PM
  • Thanks to david for replay today. https://twitter.com/acemi001just/status/537270660750651392
    Tuesday, December 2, 2014 4:39 PM
  • Yea, so David's response was "Sorry for the delay, I don't know when this will be supported but it will not be anytime soon" which is great news.

    This means LS will, at some point in the distant future, support Odata v4.  Which means that LS will still be around and supported in the foreseeable distant future.

    So, there you have it.  LS will be supported and enhanced for future generations of programmers.

    Look, I'm being a little sarcastic and I appreciate David chiming in with something.  But this is really becoming ridiculous that we don't have any real roadmap for LS.

    Tuesday, December 2, 2014 6:49 PM
  • Directly to the LS Team, or whoever on the level(s) above has the key to the shackles:

    Please have the basic decency to respond to the main thrust of this thread, or tell us why you cannot.

    The lack of response or even acknowledgement at all, let alone after 3 months, is absolutely shameful. I do not know of another organisation that assumes it can get away with such a cavalier, arrogant and ignorant attitude towards its loyal customers.

    Customers who, I might remind you, are having to take calculated decisions on behalf of their clients with regard to building solutions with LS, a tool we acknowledge has some great technology behind it, without actually being informed of whether it's dead or not, despite asking legitimate questions about its future...

    Personally, I'd detest working in an environment where i was so afraid of risking speaking out of turn, or even to request of my bosses that my customers need answers.

    Somebody, please have the balls to do the job, or tell us we're done.


    Ian Mac

    Wednesday, December 3, 2014 12:59 PM
  • This missing much known people in this forum come here and give a force, we will not stop filling the bag to get some official response
    Wednesday, December 3, 2014 9:39 PM
  • Everybody wants to know where LS is going. Big projects are comming and i'm not sure any more if I will do it in LS...

    PS: I send a tweet to Beth and to the CEO, just trying who knows it will work :)

    Thursday, December 4, 2014 8:38 PM
  • Perhaps it's time to bomb Brian Harry:

    http://msevents.microsoft.com/CUI/EventDetail.aspx?EventID=1032603894

    I quote:

    Join Brian Harry, industry leader and Microsoft Corporate Vice President, ALM for this live virtual event.  Brian will share insights about new technologies and features coming to .NET, ASP.NET, Azure, Visual Studio and Visual Studio Online for developers creating applications across a variety of platforms.
    During this 1 hour live online event with Q&A , Brian will discuss recent announcements for Visual Studio and Azure, to ensure continuous application development innovation.


    Hear strategies and practices for mobile and cloud application development, as well as see how the upcoming releases of Visual Studio, the .NET Framework and Microsoft Azure can help you to drive innovation and solve business challenges in your organisation.

    This is your chance to ask the big questions and understand the future of development. Don’t miss this opportunity to learn about the future of Visual Studio.

    So tell da man what'cha Want?

    >>>Lloyd...


    Z A R D O Z

    Friday, December 5, 2014 2:31 AM
  • Thanks for the tip, I'll be there!
    Friday, December 5, 2014 12:10 PM
  •  I stopped using lightswitch when I first saw this thread.

     I have been revisiting the thread every couple of days in the hope that there would be some glimpse of hope from Microsoft, although I'm starting to get RSI from scrolling to the bottom of what I think is the world's longest forum post.

     I admire the optimism of some of the replies about Microsoft  being secretly behind-the-scenes planning the next super duper version of light switch to surprise us all with,  or about the community taking it over and turning in into the best thing ever. Unfortunately, I don't think either are likely.

     I also cringe  at the recent posts that start with...Hi, I'm new to Lightswitch, and....

     I want to shake them and yell:  what are you doing here?  Run! and leave the oldies to die out with dignity.

     It's a shame, because if you have been looking around at alternatives like I have, there's not much on offer.  Software development is a crazy industry that favours being clever over being productive, and the  most  clever developers of the biggest culprits. As soon as a technology reaches a sufficient level of abstraction to be useful, they jump to the next cool (low level) thing. And there  seems to be an attitude that if it is rapid, then it must be restrictive. Why can't it be both?

     I would like to know what  technologies others have looked at?

    There is Wakanda  which has an amazing data model / back-end,  but  there seems to be some fundamental problems with it, and a lot of complaints on the forums.  I played with it six months ago and it was extremely buggy.

    The likes of force.com or Rollbase are  very rapid (and expensive), but really don't have the flexibility that you want unless you get into  the really low level stuff  that seems to become the most time-consuming of all.

    ASP.net Webforms is  just too 'uncool' these days, and  everyone has jumped to MVC.

    Honestly I think Meteor JS might be the one.  it is lower level  than lightswitch, but  far more flexible.  A lot of the cool kids are moving from Ruby, and all comment  that it is so fast to build software with.  it is being used by many start-ups,  and has an amazing community that all love it.

     I would like to know what others think,  and whether there is other technologies that might be suitable?

    Friday, December 5, 2014 8:49 PM
  • We might learn more about a roadmap, middle of next year: 

    http://blogs.msdn.com/b/lightswitch/archive/2014/12/05/where-we-are-and-the-road-ahead.aspx

    Friday, December 5, 2014 10:19 PM
  • I respectfully ask you to respectfully add your comments on the blog, respectfully.

    Preceding duplication of words intentional.  ;-)

    • Edited by joshbooker Friday, December 5, 2014 11:15 PM
    Friday, December 5, 2014 11:09 PM
  • ... Additionally in regard to LightSwitch and Cloud Business Applications, we’re currently planning to actively engage with the community and start our discussions on the roadmap in the middle of next year...  

    This is about the same time that Polymer for Google will be release 1.0, Dart will likely have gone to 2.0 and Angular 2.0 will follow only a few months later.  Hey maybe mid of next year LS will announce that they have something that will be coming soon... than again I am not holding my breath.. whereas Google has clearly provided roadmap and stated that they plan to deliver something by mid-next year .. not start discussions on the roadmap... What a complete bone-head statement.

    Seriously Jay?

     

          


    Johnny Larue, http://www.softlandingcanada.com

    Saturday, December 6, 2014 12:36 AM
  • Ok so we got that from Jay. Just to keep the ball rolling, I'm reposting my comments on that post here.

    Here's my first:

    Have to agree with Josh completely. This a politicians answer to a question and a massive 'up yours' to the community. Its a nothing response which does nothing to address the thrust of the forum thread. It suggests that we have to make the decision as to whether WE are comfortable to continue using LS. What? We've asked YOU endlessly for these assurances and you are leaving it up to us? What an abrogation! How many meetings were required to decide the wording of this post? Why have you not given assurance that LS has a REAL future? Why cant you start discussing a roadmap Now? Why in 7 months, which by the way will be ELEVEN months after the question was officially asked? Is it so that enough people will get so cheesed off with the whole thing that the community will have shied away by then, leaving you without the rather awful job of telling it like it is, just for a change? There is absolutely no excuse for any of this. Give us a clear statement that LightSwitch WILL be developed and enhanced to make it the tool we all want and know it can be.. Either that, or tell us the bad news. The difference then will be that, either way, at least we will know with CERTAINTY. Now do you get it?

    Then Jay came back, but not really, as I (and others) saw it. So I responded thus:

    Jay,

    I'm sorry, but what you've just said is nothing new. You agree it's not acceptable. Fine. Why has it happened and why is it still happening. You've just repeated yourself.

    We want CERTAINTY. Either way. Nothing more, nothing less.

    On a personal level. I have a hard-won customer, project green-lit 6 months ago. I am now in the middle of it and desperate as to what to do. Will  I have to throw it out? Will MS pay my losses if I do? Will I sue MS if I do? All of this was easily avoidable by use of the no-brainer method of 'how to engage with and respect your customers'.

    Somebody needs the chop for this. Somebody has managed, through sheer arrogance and disdain, to cheese off almost an entire community of dedicated developers with this terrible, appalling, inexcusable attitude. Until someone grasps the mettle and really DEALS with this, we are ALL the poorer for it.

    If anyone there is in ANY doubt, we are very, very angry.

    Please, no more meaningless, business-speak platitudes from anyone.  Meaningful, concise, clear, unequivocal is what we want, and we want it now. I make no excuses whatsoever for the tone of this post, it is time  to stop hiding behind corporate obfuscation and get on with the job of attempting to salvage the relationship with your customers.

    As I said in the forums, please somebody get hold of someone with the balls to get this done.


    Ian Mac

    Saturday, December 6, 2014 1:12 AM
  • And don't you all just love that phrase '...we’re currently planning to actively engage with the community ...' ?

    This is just the sort of verbal diarrhoea we've all had enough of. Meaningless. It's the sort of thing that peppers the most agonising types of business meeting in Central London, but without the tea, the cakes, the sound of Big Ben and the smell of the River Thames.

    Plus, given that you are oh so careful with wording, what's this 'THE' community? Is it a third party? No, it's us. We are all actually here. You can speak to us directly you know. Or so the rumour goes.


    Ian Mac

    Saturday, December 6, 2014 1:27 AM
  • This is positive. A new post from a Microsoft employee where the word LightSwitch wasn't beeped out.

    What is amazing is that given all the talk about 'cadence', Internet Speed etc. etc. etc. Jays previous blog prior to the above LightSwitch Roadmap mention on 12-06-2014 was dated 06-19-2012!!!

    Surely cadence isn't just about pointless nominal releases of updates every three months, where LightSwitch doesn't actually change much, or even out of phase minor bug fixes. There needs to be a Roadmap, blog, documentation etc. cadence associated with these releases too.

    It's been unclear to us whether the team have stopped for a cup-of-tea and a lie down or to re-gather their energies after a strategic review on direction following the announcement of a new man at the Helm of Microsoft. Has making the .NET Core server stack open source and cross-platform paralysed the LightSwitch Team? How long will the team stay in a coma before life-support is switched off?

    Seriously guys. I'd like to think the 'New Microsoft' has a plan along with an capability to execute. So far there aren't even milestones to miss!

    Having worked as a Project Manager for a 4GL back in the day, I understand that building a tool is a completely different experience from using a tool. Tool developers can become completely disconnected from where the rubber meets the road. They may not focus in areas that the user deems important because they're adding features that they themselves think are cool to have a check-box beside. The on-going engagement between tool developers and the community of users ensures vitality of the relationship.

    If we're promoting a technology & toolset for a new project we need to feel that what's in the tool-box will not turn to dust halfway through the project because the tool is not kept up-to-date throughout the project cycle and beyond. Any company considering LightSwitch would feel slightly better after reading Jays post however it would probably feel like more of a gamble than alternatives that may be promoted. The previous cadence of blogs, announcements etc. by both Microsoft employees and the LightSwitch community gave us plenty to feel positive about but as Neil Young said '. . . there's a warnin' sign on the road ahead' and LightSwitch even if it's now 'rockin' in the free world'. We need more signs of life please. This recent flat-line flicker on the heart monitor is encouraging but it's time that LightSwitch was brought out of an induced coma & given a chance to breath and grow again.

    The community is keen to engage but it would be nice if Microsoft did something like the IE12 team have done regarding areas they plan to include support for or are currently considering but maybe need convincing of the importance of (or need a push into ;-), and what categories they are not keen to explore. IOW set some boundaries and a structure for our engagement.

    We need to feel Microsoft are wholeheartedly all-in or all-out. I'm feeling that it's a dollar each way these days. Given that is the case, which horses are you putting money on?

    >>>Lloyd...


    Z A R D O Z

    Saturday, December 6, 2014 1:58 AM
  • Completely unprofessional.  

    In my opinion Lightswitch is dead, whether it gets update a year from now or not the community is lost.  

    Personally I won't put my faith in a Microsoft product ever again, this experience has been enlightening to the blinders I have had on for too long.  ASP.net vNext looks enticing, and I would probably moving my current project to it if there wasn't this completely lack of trust towards Microsoft now.

    All we needed was an answer (yes or no).. months ago.  Instead we get a maybe in the future.. way too late.

    Saturday, December 6, 2014 2:34 AM
  • This lack of communication reminds me a lot about what happened when they abandoned Silverlight.  Same sort of silence treatment experience ... tap tap is this mic on .... buzzzzzz ... nope just silence. 

    When they shut down Silverlight and came up with their tightly coupled JQM HTML 5 client I knew it was time to move on and I am really glad I have. I am thoroughly enjoying a completely different world of client technologies and even though the open source products aren't as polished as LS, the community owns the source and Google is often the second one to reply to the questions raised on the threads. 

    So thanks Jay, for if it weren't for your complete ignorance of this community I would never have ventured so far away from MS and would never have learned about all the other wonderful frameworks that are out there.

    MS has completely destroyed the trust within their developer community and it is through the hands of the a few who are in charge (Jay). It is they (Jay) that must take full ownership of this massive loss within their developer community.  It is they (Jay) that should be replaced with competent, passionate leaders. 

    I think I now understand the Google statement. Evil is bad. 


    Johnny Larue, http://www.softlandingcanada.com


    • Edited by John Kears Saturday, December 6, 2014 4:46 AM
    Saturday, December 6, 2014 4:45 AM
  • ZARDOZ ... by not replying to this community request since September pretty much signals to me that they are all-out, I don't think we need think otherwise.

    Johnny Larue, http://www.softlandingcanada.com

    Saturday, December 6, 2014 4:49 AM
  • It's...unbelievable...it really looks like Silverlight story...

    I thought that LS was the perfect tool allowing me to start developing new solutions quite immediately, quite easily, while learning the basics under the hood to adapt results to my needs.

    Now that it's time to push in this direction I discover I have to wait at least six months (six months?!) just to know if I'm on a dead end? Again, past recent Silverlight story is not making me feel much confident...What I (we?) have to do now?

    Personally I'm not an html/js/web expert like most of you, so start studying in depth js frameworks, comparing them, familiarizing with new IDEs to be productive,subscribing new forums, developing a lot of POCs, demoing to my potential customers and all these stuffs we all well know, as brave developers always intrigued by news...

    But all this takes a lot of months in the real world, why this waste? especially for loyal long time MSDN subscribers loving VS and LS...MS is opensourcing the whole .NET but what is opensource without a strong community? What is the value of this LS community for MS still not responding IN the forum?

    Yes, there is a brand new post on the LS blog after months of silence, nice but maybe not enough...is JLarue right in his last post?

    Sorry for sounding off but every month without a solid answer hope keeps decreasing...


    Marco

    Saturday, December 6, 2014 10:51 AM
  • My reply - copied here.
    ---------------------------

    So, after waiting THREE MONTHS for any kind of reply you now want us to wait another SIX MONTHS before you START to discuss the future of LightSwitch with your customers.

    How can I feel confident to develop using LightSwitch when you treat us like this? You promised to support Silverlight until 2020 but Bing Maps have already announced they will stop any Silverlight map controls from working in 2016. Not that they won't provide updates or support - that they'll actively stop them working.

    This response was three long paragraphs of marketing BS and three short sentences that completely failed to address the matter at hand - the future of LightSwitch. You have given us absolutely no reassurance whatsoever.

    LightSwitch shows great promise but the Silverlight client is slow and there are obvious bugs that are not being fixed. The HTML client is restrictive with major features missing, such as computed properties, and it expects developers to use the amazingly unfriendly JavaScript language for the client as well as C# or VB.NET for the server. You already have a possible fix for the problem of JavaScript in the form of TypeScript but for some inexplicable reason you decided not to use it.

    You could replace the Silverlight client with a full WPF client for desktop applications to gain speed, features and more wide acceptance, but instead you look like you are sitting on your collective hands for NINE MONTHS, whistling and hoping we will all go away.


    Simon Jones
    If you found this post helpful, please "Vote as Helpful". If it actually answered your question, please remember to "Mark as Answer". This will help other people find answers to their problems more quickly.

    Saturday, December 6, 2014 12:22 PM
  • As far as I can tell if you are in the business of making software and you were to understand the value of your developer community you'd understand they are your number one asset that help integrate your software and in effect help you to generate more business.   Are you that arrogant or simply just daft?

    Satya Nadella do you want to know why you can't attract developers to support your mobile products and OS?

    Simple answer :  Integrity

    Longer answer :  Crap like this.


    Johnny Larue, http://www.softlandingcanada.com

    Saturday, December 6, 2014 1:55 PM
  • Marco,  I think Google and you have something in common because they developed Dart as they too realized that JS sucks, so can I recommend Dart from Google to you. 

    Dart is easy to learn, you can pick it up in 1 hour.  Dart is an object oriented language that feels very much like C# and runs both on client as well as server. 

    It has a ton of support in the community, lots of very sophisticated packages that solve real developer type challenges.  It's fun, it's productive and because of this they will become the number one developer tool for the web. 

    So don't worry too much about your lack of skill with JS ... head on over to Google's Dart site and become productive while being treated with respect.

    Look to Polymer and Web Components to solve your challenges with client UI.  By next Spring if you get involved now you will be at the point of first release and be in a position of productivity with Web Components.   ... head on over to Google's Polymer site and become  productive while being treated with respect.

    Angular for Google is also a cool framework and it's getting a major overhaul, because as Google called out they didn't get it right the first time but they will the second time.  At least they communicated their failures and provided road map to next release. 

    There is a Polymer-Dart project as well as a Angular-Dart project which you can load into your Dart applications and once again, never need to build in JS.   Stay within the confines of a high-level language and once you have a working application, you run the Dart compiler to convert it to JS.

    Cheers

    John


    Johnny Larue, http://www.softlandingcanada.com

    Saturday, December 6, 2014 2:18 PM
  • Hi Ian, perhaps we should connect up with Tech blogs, E-Rags and other forms of news outlets for techies and point them to this thread. Tell them the story.  Ironically it's the non-MS ones that would likely push this travesty to the masses simply out of spite and it seems to me that's the only time MS listens. Perhaps then MS will receive the royal spanking that they so deserve.

    It seems to me that if you beat a drum loud enough to get noticed, such that it causes a perceived dip in the MS stock price, only then do you grab the attention of the CEO, otherwise he's likely too busy trying to keep his Shareholders happy, instead of keeping his number one asset happy, us!

    PS:  I love reading what and how you write, its so bloody British.  You are likely one of the best in the community who could articulate this story to the masses. I apologize for how my writings must come across to you, the Canadian education system is not as refined as the British is. Either that or I didn't pay enough attention in school.

    Cheers


    Johnny Larue, http://www.softlandingcanada.com


    • Edited by John Kears Saturday, December 6, 2014 4:48 PM
    Saturday, December 6, 2014 4:17 PM
  • Josh,

    Tally ho, good work old chap keep them running!

    Cheers


    Eric

    Saturday, December 6, 2014 4:44 PM
  • Thank you John for your attention and suggestions, really appreciated.

    I've read you excellent posts about Google tools and something about your impressive work analyzing integration possibilities between different stacks.
    My level of comprehension is still not sophisticated enough to understand all implications, pros and cons, but i learned different technologies, I think I'm able to start with a new one.
    Recently I already visited Dart and Polymer sites, very interesting...

    I honestly think some of we are right being angry and feeling not respected enough cause we think MS could play a significant role with LS and generally taking more care about their devs (=paying customers).

    Sorry for my poor english ;) and greetings from Italy to all the community

    Marco

    Saturday, December 6, 2014 7:53 PM
  • Good gosh, thanks man!

    I wish I was so cool that I spoke Italian as I would have replied in your native language .. perhaps I will pick Italian up in my twilight years ... oh crap I am already in those years ... you see I am an old guy (51) but that's the entity structural part, the soulful inner techie, roll up my sleeves  and get at'er passion is still burning from within a whole different part ... and I know it's the same for everybody within this community ... we all know the MS has pure awesomeness in LS ... I really want to leverage their stack but its got to bend a little bit from where it's at.... I know it can.  That's the whole reason for this Town Hall. Wake Up MS??

    Imagine MS actually gives a royal fart .. I bet there is some dusty MS office filled with a set of miserable developers, not that they aren't the best developers in the world .. no  ... they are miserable because like us, they know the LS is AMAZING, FULL OF POTENTIAL, but sadly the top chief has no idea... and the sadness continues....

    Sorry if that doesn't translate well to Italian but what I am saying the whole reason I am still here is that I (like all of you) still believe.... but as I recommended to you, there are good alternatives to consider, and those that I recommended just happen to be a few.  

    So if you or anyone reading this thread wish to join my team on a really cool learning experience on a really cool project I am running right now let me know... I could use more help. I am likely a crazy fool, but I am actually integrating Dart directly into O365. At this point I created a NodeJs tool that is built in TS and takes as input a Typescript Definition file and spits out a Dart JS API library. I am waiting for my partners to give me the OK to publicly deploy the source which will bring a crap load of Google Developers into to SP Online ... Hello MS ... are you listening ????  

    LS + (Dart, AJS, Polymer) =. More Awesomeness!

    BTW ... This is why I know that the folks in charge of getting it done at MS need to be replaced ... the only word that comes to mind is completely daft ... wait that's two words. 

    Contact me through my web site ...


    Johnny Larue, http://www.softlandingcanada.com




    • Edited by John Kears Saturday, December 6, 2014 9:06 PM
    Saturday, December 6, 2014 9:02 PM
  • Bill Gates may have put it best years ago when he said, “Your most unhappy customers are your greatest source of learning.”

    Maybe the modern way to get acceptable customer service is via mean tweets.

    Read this:

    Your product is a piece of Sh#t



    • Edited by joshbooker Saturday, December 6, 2014 11:27 PM
    Saturday, December 6, 2014 11:19 PM
  • I know it's little OT, although maybe not.

    Thanks a lot John, for sure I'll follow your announcements, btw my entity structural part is exactly the same ;)
    I'm just an independent developer who every day, week or month needs to decide where to put efforts, with limited time resources, while taking a look at the cash...

    That's why I felt comfortable using my well known VS IDE and LS RAD approach, although keeping my eyes and ears wide open.

    In last month I decided to move all efforts on a totally different platform, quite far from MS, BigG, windows, *nix and so on, while waiting for LS news, again because...all you know...the cash...

    At my LS stage of development and (poor) knowledge I was quite satisfied by LS just hoping in something confirming I was on the right track, because it was looking very very promising.
    I found very interesting Michael's and other's articles on Angular integration with LS and on a different side took a look to Dart and Polymer (js is disappointing for a .NET dev), that's why your work too is impressive and very interesting.

    My main complaint is about the lack of information (=answer in this post=respect) and the similarity against Silverlight end.

    Let's hope MS will remember Josh quotation about Bill Gates :)

    Marco

    Sunday, December 7, 2014 3:15 PM
  • Damn I missed it thought it was 3 PM my time but it as AM...

    Is there a way I can review the Connect (“Brian Harry Live”)?

    Or can somebody explain what was told regarding LightSwitch?

    Thanks!


    • Edited by Laurentz.ls Tuesday, December 9, 2014 7:15 AM
    Tuesday, December 9, 2014 7:12 AM
  • Having mentioned it you'd think that I would have signed in on time . . . but no. An unplanned visitor ran right over the timeslot so I missed the event too. I'm also hoping that they'll publish it somewhere. With the dearth of recent announcements "Brian Harry Live” seemed like the only game in town.

    >>>Lloyd...


    Z A R D O Z

    Tuesday, December 9, 2014 9:09 AM
  • A reply to that blog post from Brian Kinsella pointed out that:
    ------------------

    "LightSwitch Publish libraries are removed from the latest version of the Azure SDK (2.5). See msdn.microsoft.com/.../dn873976.aspx

    According to the release notes:

    "GOING FORWARD, to deploy Visual Studio LightSwitch applications to Azure, use the Azure SDK version 2.4. Azure SDK version 2.4 is the most recent to include the LightSwitch Publish libraries." (emphasis added)

    Seems like a pretty clear signal. Everything to the cloud -- except LightSwitch, which is being left behind."
    --------------------

    I did some research on what that means.

    While the release & retirement date information for the Azure SDK versions show that the retirement date for v2.4 is "To Be Determined" (TBD), you can also see that the most recent versions to have retirement dates set will last a bare two years before you will no longer be able to use them. msdn.microsoft.com/.../dn479282.aspx

    That gives us an expectation that Azure SDK 2.4 (with support for LightSwitch applications on Azure) will be retired sometime in the second half of 2016, after which you'll no longer be able to deploy new LightSwitch applications to Azure.

    The "Azure Supportablility and Retirement Policy", msdn.microsoft.com/.../dn750847.aspx , says that customers get 12 months from retirement date to update the SDK. That means that any LightSwitch Application on Azure is likely to stop working by the end of 2017.


    Simon Jones
    If you found this post helpful, please "Vote as Helpful". If it actually answered your question, please remember to "Mark as Answer". This will help other people find answers to their problems more quickly.

    Tuesday, December 9, 2014 9:19 AM
  • Well, I guess that alleviates the need to address the Silverlight Bing Maps control that will stop working around the same time...
    Tuesday, December 9, 2014 2:15 PM
  • This only impacts the Silverlight client, correct?

    Johnny Larue, http://www.softlandingcanada.com

    Tuesday, December 9, 2014 2:29 PM
  • The only publish target that requires the Azure SDK is down the "Azure >> Cloud Service" path of the publish wizard.  The "Azure >> Web site" path does not require the SDK.   Our telemetry tells us that Cloud Service is very rarely a publish target (by far the minority of cases).  Given this, we decided to avoid the cost of "revving" the publish binaries with each Azure SDK.  New LightSwitch publish libraries can still be released through future VS Updates and these libraries can be built against the latest released Azure SDK.

    David Kidder | Senior SDET | Microsoft | LightSwitch

    Tuesday, December 9, 2014 3:06 PM
    Moderator
  • Thanks Dave, much appreciated!

    Johnny Larue, http://www.softlandingcanada.com

    Tuesday, December 9, 2014 3:13 PM
  • Can you please write a short resume of the connect meeting? I really need to know where you are going with LightSwitch: Desktop Client. I have 4 big live project now.. Thanks for understanding!
    Tuesday, December 9, 2014 3:23 PM
  • ...  New LightSwitch publish libraries can still be released through future VS Updates and these libraries can be built against the latest released Azure SDK.

    With the current state of play I think we'll have to take it that where you have said "can" you probably should have said "could". If there was any certainty that this would happen, you would have used "will".

    Whichever word is semantically correct, it is still a confusing and worrying situation when bits of the infrastructure necessary for our livelihoods is being dismantled around our ears.


    Simon Jones
    If you found this post helpful, please "Vote as Helpful". If it actually answered your question, please remember to "Mark as Answer". This will help other people find answers to their problems more quickly.

    Tuesday, December 9, 2014 3:25 PM
  • Dave,

    Not sure what this means but...

    I can publish HTML App to new cloud service from VS2015 preview with Azure SDK 2.5 and it works.

    Josh 


    • Edited by joshbooker Tuesday, December 9, 2014 5:09 PM
    Tuesday, December 9, 2014 4:06 PM
  • The wording in the SDK notes could probably have been made more clear. As David mentioned this only affects the Cloud Service path and was done simply for engineering efficiency. The LightSwitch specific components that used to be delivered in the Azure SDK are now shipping in the Visual Studio box. The plan is to update to the latest SDK version whenever we update the VS bits if it makes sense to do so. That is why you are seeing 2.5 work with VS2015. Azure SDKs are also side by side so you should have no problem using 2.4 and 2.5 with VS2013.

    -thanks. 


    Patrick Baker (Visual Studio Senior Development Lead)

    Tuesday, December 9, 2014 4:24 PM
    Moderator
  • Patrick,

    Thank you for the reassurance. I hope you can make sure these "misleading" Azure SDK Notes get revised ASAP.

    While we have yourself, and David Kidder, engaged in this thread. Perhaps you can provide some more information such as what is the future of LightSwitch?

    We have been waiting to find this out for THREE MONTHS and many champion LightSwitch developers are now seriously looking at abandoning it because of the uncertainty over its future direction - or even if it has a future at all.

    To be told in a blog post that you expect us to wait for another SIX MONTHS before you START to talk about the future only adds to the uncertainty and speeds the exodus.

    Please say something. Don't just go silent again. The silence is what's pissing people off!


    Simon Jones
    If you found this post helpful, please "Vote as Helpful". If it actually answered your question, please remember to "Mark as Answer". This will help other people find answers to their problems more quickly.

    Tuesday, December 9, 2014 4:48 PM
  • Thanks Patrick. Clear transparent information is all anyone wants. 

    In the case of Azure SDK note, your answer brought clarity and was what we wanted to hear,

    Regarding the road ahead, the answer might not be what pleases us, but my feeling from the community is that's fine, but why can they not be transparent about it?

    The big rub for me are all the question marks - inferences - semantics. 

    The WCF Data team was transparent when they ceased 8 months ago- moved to support OData in WebAPI.   The EF team is being transparent saying their top priority for v7 RTM is APS.Net5 - some things will have to wait 'til post RTM.  In both cases, it wasn't what some folks wanted to hear, but people understood because your collegues helped that understanding.

    Why won't the tools team be transparent and spell it out for dolts like me?  ;-)

    Have a great day!

    Tuesday, December 9, 2014 5:07 PM
  • We keep asking and we don't get. Dave feels able to slip in so long as a point's being addressed that doesn't directly relate to the key questions.

    Given this, I wouldn't be surprised if even a reply like that has been subject to some serious scrutiny before posting. Whether true or not, I feel desperately sorry for all who were involved in evangelising; yes, evangelising LS in the past and have now either a) been moved to pastures new or b) left in disgust or c) still with us and wringing their hands in horror.

    Anyway, I've compiled an email to Mary Jo Foley, well known tech journo and MS watcher. Don't know what will come of it but all roads point to this thread and its (extremely) belated 'response'.

    Yes, I'm an awkward cuss but don't give a damn. Sound familiar, management?


    Ian Mac

    Tuesday, December 9, 2014 6:07 PM
  • We keep asking and we don't get. Dave feels able to slip in so long as a point's being addressed that doesn't directly relate to the key questions.

    Given this, I wouldn't be surprised if even a reply like that has been subject to some serious scrutiny before posting. Whether true or not, I feel desperately sorry for all who were involved in evangelising; yes, evangelising LS in the past and have now either a) been moved to pastures new or b) left in disgust or c) still with us and wringing their hands in horror.

    Anyway, I've compiled an email to Mary Jo Foley, well known tech journo and MS watcher. Don't know what will come of it but all roads point to this thread and its (extremely) belated 'response'.

    Yes, I'm an awkward cuss but don't give a damn. Sound familiar, management?


    Ian Mac

    For the record, I am still evangelizing LightSwitch :)

    The main reason is that while additional features are nice, I only blog on and talk about what is here now that actually works. All that stuff still works and will continue to work in future versions of Visual Studio.

    Will it get discontinued in the future? Of course, all their products get discontinued eventually. However, it is not discontinued now.


    Unleash the Power - Get the LightSwitch 2013 HTML Client / SharePoint 2013 book

    http://LightSwitchHelpWebsite.com

    Tuesday, December 9, 2014 6:31 PM
  • Will it get discontinued in the future? Of course, all their products get discontinued eventually. However, it is not discontinued now.

    I think Lightswitch is an exception Michael.  To me it's more of a methodology to build great apps.  The underlying technologies that LS uses may come and go but the process that is used to build our apps are essentially the same.  To me, it's almost an extension to the IDE itself.
    Tuesday, December 9, 2014 7:00 PM
  • Speaking of Mary Jo . . . does this sound familiar: "Why not use the Office 365 Roadmap site to communicate plans more clearly? "

    The last part of her article echo's the issues we have:

    http://www.zdnet.com/article/microsoft-users-not-happy-over-quiet-sharepoint-online-feature-cuts/

    "But customers I'm hearing from are getting increasingly restless about all the work they have to do to keep up with which Office 365 features Microsoft is keeping and which it's killing. Why not use the Office 365 Roadmap site to communicate plans more clearly? Or if that's not the appropriate vehicle, why not find a way to keep users abreast of what's being cut, when -- and hopefully, why?"

    Are Roadmaps now a thing of the past? It almost seems like we're in transition to a new policy regarding formal technical communications from Microsoft.

    >>>Lloyd...


    Z A R D O Z

    Tuesday, December 9, 2014 11:02 PM
  • No public sites in 365 .. Holy moly this is nuts that MS can simply cut out features whenever it pleases them to do so.  Man so much for us independent developers utilizing the cloud and 365.  Wow there is some really bad decisions at play, I wonder if Jay's involved? Smells like it.

    I have had just about enough of this crap.  Time to look at Google's cloud offering. I know it's behind but they seem to care a lot about their developer community and it is pretty clear MS doesn't give a royal (you know what).

    This explains why MS is dropping LS like a stone.

    Run to the hills, run for your lives ....


    Johnny Larue, http://www.softlandingcanada.com


    • Edited by John Kears Tuesday, December 9, 2014 11:25 PM
    Tuesday, December 9, 2014 11:24 PM
  • To be fair - there's plenty of Azure offerings for public web-sites (some that are free for all intents and purposes), and with some of the work MS has done opening up SharePoint to dynamic query from external apps means that using SharePoint as a CMS for a public-facing web-site isn't necessarily as awkward as it was in the past.

    With that said, I'd be looking at AWS + Docker over Google as there is always going to be a question about Google's content indexing practices and corresponding privacy concerns.

    Going back to Josh's most recent post: Yes - it's the lack of transparency that is causing the most angst in the LS community.  However, one of the issues with a faster product release cadence (something that Microsoft is trying to deliver across the board) is that you don't necessarily have visibility on what's going to be in scope 2-3 iterations down the track.  Yes - Dave and Patrick could be talking to us about what features *are* on the product backlog, rather than exactly when they'll be delivered, but they'd get howled at if any of those features subsequently gets cut from the list.

    While some might be critical of Microsoft's increasingly tactical world-view, I think it's important to remember that their past strategic thinking also created issues for customers (when promised features weren't shipped or were pared down to something more like a minimum viable product).

    What the LS community wants is some certainty - and I think there's enough certainty to keep producing LS apps for the immediate short term.  However, we do need some macro-level directions that we can pitch to our respective leaders/clients regarding what LS might look like in a 12-36 month time-frame. 

    Dave and Patrick

    I don't envy you - you guys are stuck in an awful position.  I do appreciate the snippets that you have been able to release.  However, those of us who are in technology influencer roles without being decision makers are in an equally fraught position, and cannot be expected to continue to sell the product (internally and externally) unless we can answer pointy questions about the roadmap.  Please pass on to your leadership team the fact that MS is missing out on a marketing opportunity here.  You have a great product, with awesome ideas behind it.  LightSwitch is to IT architecture what modular construction technologies are to the architecture of buildings.  However, it's not feature complete (especially the HTML client), and until it is it's not fair to sideline the LS community based on a less stellar take-up rate than might otherwise have been expected when the product is still realistically at V2.5 - not a genuine V3.0.  We understand that the VS team is focused on shipping VS 2015, and we're not necessarily asking for immediate action on new features.  We just need a peek at the backlog so we can stop taking flak from our stakeholders.

    Thanks in advance for anything more you can tell us about what's on the drawing board - even if it's qualified by "this could change later, but here's what we're thinking".

    Wednesday, December 10, 2014 12:02 AM
  • For the record, I am still evangelizing LightSwitch :)

    Hey I know that Michael, but I was referring to those at MS (the LS Team) who at one time were not forced to have devices of questionable function attached to areas of questionable propriety ready for a bit of CIA-style ("we thought it was legal guv, honest!") remote button-pushing should they post certain opinions or phrases.


    Ian Mac

    Wednesday, December 10, 2014 3:47 PM
  • I'm with Michael,

    I am learning MVC ASP.NET and it seems like building an app with MVC vs. LS is like building a house with raw trees and a hammer (have to cut the wood out of the log/manually pound each nail) vs. using pre-cut and sized lumber with a nail gun.  Sure, you can build any kind of house you want, but most houses are square and have floors and a roof.

    That said,  I understand the opinions expressed here about all aspects of the silence, but I am encouraged by the fact that it is still in VS2015!!!  :) 

    Wednesday, December 10, 2014 3:58 PM
  • I'm with Michael,

    I am learning MVC ASP.NET and it seems like building an app with MVC vs. LS is like building a house with raw trees and a hammer (have to cut the wood out of the log/manually pound each nail) vs. using pre-cut and sized lumber with a nail gun.  Sure, you can build any kind of house you want, but most houses are square and have floors and a roof.

    That said,  I understand the opinions expressed here about all aspects of the silence, but I am encouraged by the fact that it is still in VS2015!!!  :) 


    Yes, I have been speaking and blogging on this a lot :)

    Unleash the Power - Get the LightSwitch 2013 HTML Client / SharePoint 2013 book

    http://LightSwitchHelpWebsite.com

    Wednesday, December 10, 2014 5:11 PM
  • Any new from that Connect session? So nobody has attended this meeting??

    Wasn't that the moment to ask all those questions?

    Wednesday, December 10, 2014 7:28 PM
  • This thread is so long so not sure if this has already been mentioned but I found this interesting discussion on Visual Studio Tooling choices made in particular Angular integrated within VS, staring Mads Kristensen...

    http://devchat.tv/adventures-in-angular/019-aia-microsoft-tooling-with-mads-Kristensen

    • browser link - provides socket connections between any browser to VS. Provides VS with ability to interrogate code on the client. Browser link runs within the DOM thus in real-time VS can provide feedback code profiling.
    • task runner explorer - Grunt, Gulp VS plugin. List all tasks, double-click to execute task. Associate grunt task to VS pre-post build event. VS auto-runs Grunt watch to monitor for file changes that execute Grunt task. Full Grunt, Gulp integration with Unit Test tasks.

    Cheers

    John

     


    Johnny Larue, http://www.softlandingcanada.com

    Thursday, December 11, 2014 2:54 PM