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RIP LightSwitch RRS feed

  • General discussion

  • After two years of excruciating delay, the VS team finally admits the writing on the wall.  They truly should be ashamed in how they handled this, and owe the community an explanation on why they did such a poor job handling developer trust, and why they should ever consider any technology recommendation again.  Do they really expect anyone to go to PowerApps now?

    BTW, they are moderating comments on that blog, and I would be amazed that they accept any comments.  So save your breath and feel free to rant it out here instead. :P

    https://blogs.msdn.microsoft.com/lightswitch/2016/10/14/lightswitch-update/


    Friday, October 14, 2016 6:39 PM

All replies

  • Powerapps is that good that it cannot and probably will never be able to replace any of the production lightswitch html apps that we have produced. Powerapps simply is not a replacement for lightswitch html and nothing in the roadmap gives one any hope that it ever will. Dave

    Dave Baker | AIDE for LightSwitch | Xpert360 blog | twitter : @xpert360 | Xpert360 website | Opinions are my own. For better forums, remember to mark posts as helpful/answer.

    Friday, October 14, 2016 6:48 PM
  • Agreed!! Dave it's complete crap for a long time

    Eric


    Friday, October 14, 2016 6:51 PM
  • The blog is sad, just sad.  Not in the outcome, that was assumed long ago, but sad in the way this was handled, as you said.

    I am excited about Dynamics365 and the Common Data Model.  PowerApps is a part of this, but the current subscription model and lack of extensibility is a show stopper at the moment.

    Friday, October 14, 2016 8:40 PM
  • I don't regret going all in on LightSwitch. I got a lot of apps built and for now they are all still working.

    As to the future, I have been using MVC/Angular for a few years now and Angular2 looks like it will be my choice starting in 2017.

    I am noticing that 50% of my time is spent with Artificial Intelligence / Bots / HoloLens.


    http://AIHelpWebsite.com

    http://HoloLensHelpWebsite.com

    http://LightSwitchHelpWebsite.com

    Unleash the Power - Get the LightSwitch HTML Client / SharePoint book

    Friday, October 14, 2016 11:19 PM
  • u made point it's not LS the tool by itself but that said story behind that all.

    Eric

    Saturday, October 15, 2016 12:16 AM
  • Michael, without you and some of the other devs here, Lightswitch would have died out long before the official notice.  Speaking for everyone on the forum, thank you for all your time; you helped a lot of folks ship apps and put food on their families' tables!

    Saturday, October 15, 2016 9:09 PM
  • Windows forms with C++ went the same at.

    I developed a huge CAD program using C++ and Winforms.

    I had to rewrite it in C# but found that the graphics were much slower in C#.


    n.Wright

    Saturday, October 15, 2016 9:18 PM
  • Michael, without you and some of the other devs here, Lightswitch would have died out long before the official notice.  Speaking for everyone on the forum, thank you for all your time; you helped a lot of folks ship apps and put food on their families' tables!

    Thank you for all the support in return.

    Also, we are all still running live apps so I plan to keep hanging around here.


    http://AIHelpWebsite.com

    http://HoloLensHelpWebsite.com

    Sunday, October 16, 2016 12:37 AM
  • > Thank you for all the support in return. 

    I've seen your work around over the years as well Michael and wanted to send my respect as well. :)

    It might be some (if any) consolation, but there is an open idea/vote on Visual Studio's UserVoice for basically the next Silverlight/LightSwitch.  If you haven't, please take a second to add your votes.  It's pushing 5,000 votes, which is pretty decent for only having been up for a year.  It's also marked as Under Review, which is further than what the infamously denied Silverlight 6 vote managed to do.  I think the difference this time is messaging and intent.  Silverlight was never really cross-platform in the standards-compliant sense, and that is what ultimately hurt its brand.  This time around the development community is asking for a 100% HTML5 standards-compliant solution much like what JSIL and CSHTML5 has managed to demonstrate (at a limited capacity).

    So, yeah small consolation, but maybe something to look to for a possible positive out of all of this.

    Sunday, October 16, 2016 12:48 AM
  • I helped put two LightSwitch HTML apps into production last week. Next week, another goes live. In the last year, I have built and released 12 apps (600 screens, 300 tables) and that is not full time. There will be another couple in the next 3 months at least. All are large form factor desktop web apps, some on premise, some in Windows Azure. Mixed in with a variety of ASP.NET MVC, lots of webapi and OpenXML. Look and feel as good as it gets.

    How many clients have been clamouring for mobile phone apps, none. How many clients are trendy BYOD companies, zero. No clients give a stuff what Microsoft say. I did try to explain to some softies that stats gathered from Visual Studio LightSwitch usage are not valid. Large clients with secure networks and firewalls will never let Visual Studio reach out to Microsoft, therefore no stats. If anybody pays attention to stats, including Microsoft, are there any peculiarities? Care to explain how somebody out there has LightSwitch apps with 500+ tables and 750+ screens? Perish the thought, lets just ignore all those outliers, they cannot mean anything, they don't fit with the 'Microsoft story'. Lies, damned lies and statistics - Microsoft, guilty and apparently not very clever.

    I expect some of the on-premise apps will live on well beyond 2020.

    The challenge is getting to the same productivity and maturity position again, for all of us. Despite the ridiculous recommendation from Microsoft not to use LightSwitch anymore we will for some time. There is no comparable alternative at the moment, and their statements and words lack any credibility.

    We all know Microsoft lack trust and credibility in dealing with developers and I doubt anybody holds any hope of Microsoft doing anything such as releasing LightSwitch top open source. Why not? Perhaps the community just might seriously embarrass them. Microsoft claims to be open but it only does whatever suits its own purposes and agenda.

    Mobile apps for the Enterprise, PowerApps, Band, Windows Phone, Hololens, VB6, Silverlight, Bot framework etc, etc... We always end up disappointed, somehow in a perverse world of demo-ware, preview-ware, doing the software testing for Microsoft at your own cost. You have to ask, which one am I going to be burned on again by Microsoft, for surely you will be.

    The only area we like is Windows Azure but you have to tread carefully there in an ever changing platform. That is the only place PowerApps will ever operate, (big) IF it ever takes off beyond demo-ware, no-code solutions, no extensibility and mobile small form factor screen designs.

    We have working apps, all client code, most server code, app metadata and plenty of re-usable app fragments (Sorry if you have Silverlight apps). Not a bad starting point for the next adventure.

    Dave


    Dave Baker | AIDE for LightSwitch | Xpert360 blog | twitter : @xpert360 | Xpert360 website | Opinions are my own. For better forums, remember to mark posts as helpful/answer.

    Sunday, October 16, 2016 9:29 AM
  • Dave ,

    Thanks for your input, i see also Powerapps will never replace LS further or place LS souce as open source i wonder there is no benenfit for LS, thanks for all your efforts in the LS community and your great products u have build.


    Eric

    Sunday, October 16, 2016 11:32 AM
  • ...I have built and released 12 apps (600 screens, 300 tables) and that is not full time. There will be another couple in the next 3 months at least...

    ...Care to explain how somebody out there has LightSwitch apps with 500+ tables and 750+ screens? Perish the thought, lets just ignore all those outliers, they cannot mean anything, they don't fit with the 'Microsoft story'...

    ...The challenge is getting to the same productivity and maturity position again, for all of us. Despite the ridiculous recommendation from Microsoft not to use LightSwitch anymore we will for some time. There is no comparable alternative at the moment, and their statements and words lack any credibility...

    If I need to create such large scale apps in the future, I will seriously look at T4 templates and www.codesmithtools.com. My "stack" for the past 3 years has been: AngularJs/Bootstrap/SQL Server/OData4. This is 10 times slower to develop than LightSwitch (however, the final application runs just as fast).

    ...How many clients have been clamouring for mobile phone apps, none. How many clients are trendy BYOD companies, zero...

    I belive that people don't want apps they just want to get stuff done. In my case, mobile usage is over 20% and climbing. Everything I do must work on mobile. So, for example, the only problem with Silverlight is that it does not work on most of the mobile devices. This is why I have been "all in" on the LightSwitch HTML Client and I expect those apps to continue to work fine into 2020 (but I will migrate them before then because if future web browsers cause JQuery Mobile errors I could have apps that people can't get to work right).

    ...You have to ask, which one am I going to be burned on again by Microsoft, for surely you will be.

    The only area we like is Windows Azure but you have to tread carefully there in an ever changing platform...

    In my opinion it’s really about Azure. Microsoft has a winner with Azure.
    So if something feeds the Azure machine it stays. Otherwise it goes.

    I am in portal.azure.com every day. I spend about 20% of my day doing “something” there. Heck 50% of the time I am using Microsoft Office it is the web version (Word/Outlook/OneNote/Planner/Excel).

    • I have most of my VM’s in there
    • I have most of my SQL databases in there
    • I have dozens of web apps in there
    • I have authentication for all my websites including local ones on my development box tied to Azure AD login
    • Of course my Bots and their Telemetry and Cognitive Services are all running on Azure.

    I’m also all in with HoloLens because it is only useful when it is connected to the cloud.

    In my world I am stuck with Microsoft and with Azure and all the benefits it provides (tooling (through Visual Studio)/services/flexibility), and actually am quite happy :)


    http://AIHelpWebsite.com

    http://HoloLensHelpWebsite.com

    Sunday, October 16, 2016 1:10 PM
  • Microsoft did the same with VB6 programming.

    Is anyone surprised ?


    Microsoft VB6 programming support (VB6 Support StatementVB6 Programming IDE Installer)

    Sunday, October 16, 2016 3:09 PM
  • As an early LS adopter, I feel sad and disappointed with Microsoft.


    Ciro

    Monday, October 17, 2016 10:43 AM
  • Hi Michael!

    What dou you think about Asp.Net MVC as alternative for LS HTML Client?

    Best regards,


    Ciro

    Monday, October 17, 2016 10:46 AM
  • Thank you MS for showing us what is possible and finally coming clean that you will no longer continue. 

    This whole experience has been a great learning experience, the LS framework was well architected and taught me many design principals that I likely would not have had direct exposure to if not for LS.

    In any event this experience has taught me a great lesson that Open Source has way more advantages for those of us that are building upon frameworks to solve Business problems than using a supported product driven by a Corporate agenda.

    An interesting observation I have made more than once is how some customers shy away from Open Source due to concerns about licensing and then you have this scenario where you'd have to believe that if MS is pushing something then it's going to be supported.  At least now I have a concrete example in support of Open Source to draw from. 

    Nonetheless I am not feeling sad nor have any regrets.  I do not fret as there will always be more LS framework's too come, I very much look forward to discovering of them.  Personally, I do not believe Power App is such a LOB framework that is the equal of LS, they are two very different things.  

    For those that staked your business or career on LS I get that this is a tough pill to swallow, I am truly sorry for you and wish you all future success. I know you will recover sooner rather than later.

    JavaScript has come a very long way in the past few years, transpilers such as Babel and TS have helped to take advantage of future JS language features of tomorrow, today. The cloud is just simply wonderful for micro dev teams.  

    There are 1000's of reasons to be optimistic and ton's and ton's of cool opportunities to embrace.

    So leave this place with your head held high, keep in touch for we are all of a similar mind as to what makes a great LOB framework and tool set and despite some of it's short comings, LS was a great LOB framework for it's time but I believe there will be many other LS type frameworks to follow! 

    Cheers

    John

        


    Johnny Larue, http://www.softlandingcanada.com


    • Edited by John Kears Monday, October 17, 2016 11:15 AM
    Monday, October 17, 2016 11:14 AM
  • Hi Michael!

    What dou you think about Asp.Net MVC as alternative for LS HTML Client?

    Best regards,


    Ciro

    This is what I use:

    A OData 4 / AngularJs / TypeScript Sample Application  


    http://AIHelpWebsite.com

    http://HoloLensHelpWebsite.com

    Monday, October 17, 2016 4:49 PM
  • Hi Dave,

    I'm using VS2013 and would like to buy your AIDE, I sent emails to the Website but never get back any info.

    Can you please help me?

    thank you so muc

    Friday, October 21, 2016 1:10 PM
  • Well it was fun while it lasted. A big thank you to everyone who supported my LightSwitch products over the years. Sad about the way the end was handled.

    I have switched over to ASP.NET MVC and Angular with extensive use of T4 templates to do all the heavy lifting. Not quite as productive as LightSwitch but can get from a model to a demo version of an app in about the same amount of time. The polish then takes longer but I also gain a lot more freedom.

    Best wishes.

    Sunday, October 23, 2016 7:22 AM
  • Thanks everyone for your support in here over the years!
    Monday, October 31, 2016 7:59 PM
  • Well it is not quite the end yet. However, I am hopeful that a clear path forward will emerge in the next 6 months. We will be part of another community in a few years, let's hope its as good as this one ;)

    Dave Baker | AIDE for LightSwitch | Xpert360 blog | twitter : @xpert360 | Xpert360 website | Opinions are my own. For better forums, remember to mark posts as helpful/answer.

    Tuesday, November 1, 2016 4:06 PM
  • Yes, it is not quite the end as yet...

    Our largest application is a LightSwitch-heavy application that literally saves lives and helps people with mental health issues on a daily basis.

    I say "LightSwitch-heavy" meaning that most of the UI is done as a LightSwitch HTML client, but with a lot of Angular & Kendo & IFrames thrown in to compliment the standard UI.

    At the backend it is all RIA Domain service + Web API with no standard LightSwitch datasources.

    The application works well, is very stable and is used almost 24/7 and needs to be enhanced and supported for the next 5 years or more. In fact, we are just finishing off a major integration with a central government based service to enhance the application's capabilities.

    At some point, we may start migrating the LightSwitch UI to another framework - probably Ember.JS as we've had good results with that on another large project.

    So LightSwitch is not RIP for us just yet!

    The mind still boggles as to why MS would drop such an amazing technology instead of evolving it (and no, PowerApps is not a LS evolution from what I can see).


    Regards, Xander. My Blog

    Wednesday, November 2, 2016 2:04 AM
  • Wel as u write many VERY large LS have seen the light during the past years that is why nobody  understands MS, and correct Powerapss will never be an replacement for LS.


    Eric

    Wednesday, November 2, 2016 7:49 AM
  • THe sad new !!!! *crying* !! LS and Silverlight is rip all  :(

    I just start learn LS few month ago... and i'm still writting my little web project in LS........I like the way LS do easy make DB, query and screen... 

    ....lolz... but not almost is waste :(...

    At last, so many thanks to ADefwebserver - Michale... all ur post is a lot helpfull for me...

    OK back to learn asp, and asp.mvc -.-" it never die right?

    Thursday, November 3, 2016 4:02 AM
  • We’ve used LightSwitch since Beta 1 and created numerous of customer satisfying applications, but at the end LightSwitch was unfortunately undervalued even by its own company, as we all know.

    Therefore, we give our sincerest thanks to Dave Vorgang, Josh Booker, Xander van der Merwe, Dave Baker, Yann Duran, Paul Van Bladel, Jan Van der Haegen, Michael Washington and many others for all the valuable information and support.

    Maybe the spirit of the community can be preserved somewhere else. We focus on http://www.radzen.com, since we’re finally good to go with Angular and ASP.NET Core.

    We are excited about Radzen, not least because the team is very responsive, rapidly provides fixes, and they’re open to suggestions for improvements.

    Best,
    Michael


    • Edited by ethnoplex Tuesday, May 30, 2017 3:45 PM changed to http
    Tuesday, May 30, 2017 3:25 PM
  • We are excited about Radzen, not least because the team is very responsive, rapidly provides fixes, and they’re open to suggestions for improvements.

    I can confirm this, release after release it became a good replacement for Lightswitch and more flexible
    Wednesday, May 31, 2017 4:41 AM
  • It would be great to get some comparisons between the LightSwitch vs RadZen development experience from those of you that have now used both.

    RadZen is definitely on my list to explore in more details in future. It would be great if RadZen were to create a developer forum to help build out a community.


    Regards, Xander | filebus.io | Blog


    • Edited by novascape Tuesday, June 6, 2017 12:22 AM
    Tuesday, June 6, 2017 12:21 AM
  • The problem with RadZen or any JavaScript-based project in a .NET solution is that it introduces a completely new and incompatible code base along side your .NET languages.  You cannot share code and/or leverage knowledge between the two code bases, meaning you are now saddled with developing and maintaining two separate and incompatible code bases written in two incompatible languages.

    Some do not have a problem with this, but the smart ones are seeing that this costs money and are as a result switching to a completely javascript-based solution altogether, and ditching .NET 100%.

    Tuesday, June 6, 2017 6:03 AM
  • It would be great to get some comparisons between the LightSwitch vs RadZen development experience from those of you that have now used both.

    RadZen is definitely on my list to explore in more details in future. It would be great if RadZen were to create a developer forum to help build out a community.


    Regards, Xander | filebus.io | Blog


    Hi Xander,

    Hope you're well.  Wrote the following email yesterday for a mutual LS acquaintance.

    My take:

    Radzen -  checks the most boxes for me.  It’s very similar to a LS vNext in that you start with data and it generates forms and runs in seconds.  http://www.radzen.com

    Pros: 

    • Creates a dotnet core C# OData backend for SQL Data Sources, or a js service for OData or REST connections
    • Separation between generated and user code is perfect – all gen code has corresponding user code file available to extend, etc.
    • Creates a plain Angular 2 App on disk – fully customizable, extendable in editor of your choice
    • App metadata customization is also available to push it beyond currently supported design-time features.  I really like having both RadZen and VS code open and using both the designer and code.
    • Developers are very active, has momentum – only getting more and more ‘open’
    • Now has swagger support for creating REST endpoints
    • At $599 I think it’s worth every penny.

    Cons:

    • Angular/.NetCore only at the moment – I was hoping to find an Aurelia option for RAD and avoid learning the subtle differences between ng & au, but they say it was developed to be framework agnostic and support for others is likely at a later date.

    Front-End Creator - is Aurelia based and is promising.  I’ve been playing with the alpha.  The developer is interested in feedback from LS users and I could get you invited if you like. http://frontendcreator.com/

    Pros:

    • Aurelia is my personal preference
    • Developer is motivated to consider feature requests
    • A screen is automatically a custom component so ‘screen parts’ are reusable within other screens
    • frequent updates in alpha
    • Very early alpha yet so any cons could change – I’ll keep my eye on this one.

    Cons:

    • The workflow is a bit less refined than Radzen
    • Doesn’t start with data - No Easy connect to data and go
    • Doesn’t really output a plain app to disk - yet.  The system is a web-based designer with meta being stored the service database – I’d prefer a plain app on disk (like Radzen) so you can break away from the tooling at any time.  Developer says it will do so at some point - I think.
    • No easy service connection or Backend code generation

    PowerApps – has a TON of momentum from Microsoft at the moment.  This one is not going away anytime soon.  Being targeted to ‘no-code power users’ it will be very slow to introduce the extensibility for the pro-dev, but that could be on the way at some point.  Basically if you have clients on Office365 or Dynamics365 then this area is worth keeping an eye on, but it’ll probably never really be a LS replacement for pro developers.  That said, the Common Data Service looks promising for a back-end data service – again only for 365 subscribers.  The biggest pro is the momentum – with DYN365, FLOW (logic apps), Azure Functions, Sharepoint integration, AppSource publishing  and trials (to monetize connectors and such) – this thing is going to have a lot of MSFT resources thrown at it for a long time to come.  A community license was recently introduced so the hurdle to try it out and develop on is lowered.

    In summary, I’ve been a bit active in the past few weeks on Radzen and it’s been a pleasure working on issues\suggestions with the developers.  In fact I made 3 requests\suggestions last Friday and they released an update early AM next business day!  

    https://github.com/akorchev/radzen/issues

    I know this community would have some great input to share if you tried it out.

    Have a great day!

    HTH,

    Josh

    Tuesday, June 6, 2017 12:11 PM
  • +1 RadZen Developer Community

    For now they are using the GitHub Issues as a Q&A.  Feel free to post questions and start a discussion in there.

    https://github.com/akorchev/radzen/issues


    • Edited by joshbooker Tuesday, June 6, 2017 12:17 PM
    Tuesday, June 6, 2017 12:17 PM
  • Radzen work even with OData RESTier ... when (if?) released will be a good backend and very similar to LS

    +1 RadZen Developer Community


    • Edited by fileman Tuesday, June 6, 2017 12:20 PM +1 RadZen Dev Community
    Tuesday, June 6, 2017 12:18 PM
  • @Mike-EEE - I'm open to new ways, but I'm not sold as yet on doing Javascript on both the client and server. I can see the benefit of code sharing, say around validation, but (e.g. in a SPA app against a REST API backend) we typically find that client side code and server side code are totally different and the benefit of code sharing is not that great. But happy to be convinced otherwise, so what would your ideal dev stack look like to support this scenario?

    One language at both ends was of course the great benefit of Silverlight. I'm still impressed when I look back at some of the code and apps we developed in the Silverlight Lightswitch edition - such a pity that technology came to an end :(

    @Josh - thanks for the thorough write-up and information. I was also very interested in Aurelia, but the lack of information at the time swayed me towards Angular. With RadZen, I assume the ability to use the designer goes out the window once you open the solution in VS and start editing is manually?


    Regards, Xander | filebus.io | Blog


    • Edited by novascape Tuesday, June 6, 2017 11:04 PM
    Tuesday, June 6, 2017 11:00 PM
  •  ...I assume the ability to use the designer goes out the window once you open the solution in VS and start editing is manually?

    No, see:

    Auto-generating Angular 4 Pages and Creating Custom Components Using Radzen

    You can see the Radzen Architecture at the following link:

    http://www.radzen.com/documentation/architecture/

    and:

    http://www.radzen.com/documentation/custom-component/

    This will explain what pages you can and cannot edit.


    http://AIHelpWebsite.com

    http://HoloLensHelpWebsite.com


    Tuesday, June 6, 2017 11:05 PM
  • @Xander, you are on the ball.  Silverlight is the premiere example of this.  Even WPF development showcases this very well if you are lucky enough to land an LOB engagement that allows for this.

    Consider a simple logging library (I use Serilog).  If you wish to use this on the client side using JavaScript, how do you do it?  You can use Serilog "JavaScript edition" but it is nothing like the origin, and isn't even run by the same authors!  Meaning it has its own set of issues and defects, and could fundamentally operate completely different from the spirit of Serilog.  

    Bugs found and fixed in one code base does not impact the other, and this is where the churn manifests and multiplied as you add additional libraries and concerns to your incompatible-with-.NET-code-base.

    Tuesday, June 6, 2017 11:18 PM
  • Also @Xander et. al:

    There's another option that you might want to consider if your LOB application is always-connected and can be hosted on Azure.  This solution used to be called Azure RemoteApp, but it is now Citrix ZenApp:

    http://www.citrix.com/xenapp

    Essentially it's a RDC version of your app, rendered in a webpage or native host, meaning it works on iOS, Droid, and the Web via a 100% HTML5-standards compliant host.  The "gotcha" is that it has to be always online and has to be on an Azure (or LDAP) domain.

    But, if your LOB application meets these requirements, that means you can technically continue to use Silverlight, LightSwitch, or even better yet, WPF. :)

    Definitely worth considering and checking out.

    Awingu is also another provider offering the same type of solution.

    Tuesday, June 6, 2017 11:25 PM
  • Hi Xander

    Radzen does a great job of separating generated from user code so a bunch of extensibility is possible in code without losing the ability to continue using the RAD designer.

    The client code has generated class files for each page and also user files which extend these classes with user code.

    In the case of SQL Server, the server project has generated controllers which expose partial methods such as OnCustomerCreated which can be used in CustomerController-Custom.cs to hook into events.

    From what little I've done it seems you just need to stay away from changes to the data model code on client and server.

    There is also a meta directory which has all the app metadata used by the designer and generator. There are some things you can do in there to overcome features not yet implemented in the designer.

    Have a look at this repo for a complete radzen app.

    https://github.com/akorchev/radzen-end-to-end-application

    • Edited by joshbooker Wednesday, June 7, 2017 11:54 AM iphone cant dance
    Wednesday, June 7, 2017 2:33 AM
  •  Microsoft have a habit of leaving technologies behind.
    I developed a Windows forms C++ application.
    Then all of a sudden I couldn't edit forms in the designer after a VS new
    version.
    I complained to Microsoft and they said they werent going to fix the
    problem.
    I recently downloaded VS2017 and that seems to display the form designer
    OK.

    n.Wright

    Wednesday, June 7, 2017 2:54 AM
  • Thanks Josh and Michael, RadZen certainly deserves a closer look.

    @Josh - I assume that PowerApps clients are still required to be federated under your organisation's O365 account and cannot be offered to the general public for consumption?


    Regards, Xander | filebus.io | Blog

    Wednesday, June 7, 2017 3:45 AM
  • Hello All

    Has anyone had the chance to try the latest offering from MS? Windows Template Studio, on paper, seems to deliver what people have been asking for in the fact that it is full MVVM, template based and, more importantly, open source.

    https://blogs.windows.com/buildingapps/2017/05/16/announcing-windows-template-studio/#WQ2Sq6due3uMmKvm.97

    I am still waiting on my Windows 10 machine before I can get VS2017 and download it but if someone else could see what they think in the meantime I PROMISE I will be back on here to let you all know my thoughts and experiences.


    If you found this post helpful, please mark it as helpful. If by some chance I answered the question, please mark the question as answered. That way you will help more people like me :)

    Wednesday, June 7, 2017 8:31 AM
  • @Josh - I assume that PowerApps clients are still required to be federated under your organisation's O365 account and cannot be offered to the general public for consumption?
    Correct, they cannot be offered to the general public for consumption.  The new free community subscription enables developers to design and test PowerApps that could be made available commercially - but the user\buyers of these apps will be limited to subscribers to O365 and/or Dyn365.
    Wednesday, June 7, 2017 12:06 PM
  • Hey @Otis and @Josh and others...

    (is it just my account or have the names been removed from the posts here?)

    I was curious about your thoughts on XenApp/Awingu.  Do your LOB scenarios allow for always connected?  I would be interested in hearing your thoughts on on and/or why you would not consider it.  Again it would allow you to use LightSwitch/Silverlight/WPF on iOS/Droid/Windows and Web.

    Thursday, June 8, 2017 1:26 AM
  • @Mike - no it is not just your account, I also cannot see the names, but I think I've seen the behavior before and then it came right again, so perhaps a forum glitch or bug...

    XenApp/Awingu have a per (concurrent) user licensing model, which would not be attractive to me and I would probably rule it out on this simple fact.

    Conceptually, it does seem like a good idea if you have legacy apps, but we don't have any non-web apps where this would be useful anymore and we would not build any new non-web apps either. Our last Silverlight LightSwitch app was converted to pure HTML last year.

    Not sure that I would buy into building new apps using non-web technology to then deploy using this either.



    Regards, Xander | filebus.io | Blog


    • Edited by novascape Thursday, June 8, 2017 1:36 AM
    Thursday, June 8, 2017 1:35 AM
  • OK cool... thanks for your input, Xander.  The irony here of course is that it used to be Azure, so that would help with the warm n' fuzzies of building on top of this infrastructure and (ideally) hope that it would have some sort of legitimate support from the Empire going forward.

    If you are already web-based, it certainly is not an attractive option at all, so that it understandable.  I for one would be all over this if I had an LOB opportunity so that is why I am curious what others think if they happen to be in the same position.

    Thursday, June 8, 2017 1:41 AM
  • I was curious about your thoughts on XenApp/Awingu.  Do your LOB scenarios allow for always connected?  

    Using Angular 4, my apps now work well on the phone (try my sample Angular 4 App: http://theweddingbot.com on your phone) and while my users may not always get phone coverage at their location, they are usually always able to get Wi-Fi internet.  

    I really feel that Angular 4 has given us the speed that Silverlight gave us. Typescript is sooo close to C# that I feel like I am coding everything in "C".


    http://AIHelpWebsite.com

    http://HoloLensHelpWebsite.com

    Thursday, June 8, 2017 1:43 AM
  • @Mike - What he said really.

    My main issue is that the upper management have heard that LS is no longer supported and are trying to ditch all the apps whilst doing a major Win 10 implementation. Of course, they hear from the same people that LS is no longer supported that PowerApps and PowerBI is the future and I have to scrabble around to correct this "fake news"

    I need to find a solution that allows for people who aren't as code savvy as me to still be able to create a simple app without the need to learn another new language and JavaScript counts in that case which is why a lot of the other solutions wont work for me. It is one of the reasons why we are still using Silverlight based apps and why I need to find something that is as close as possible to LS to replace it.


    If you found this post helpful, please mark it as helpful. If by some chance I answered the question, please mark the question as answered. That way you will help more people like me :)

    Thursday, June 8, 2017 9:44 AM
  • I really feel that Angular 4 has given us the speed that Silverlight gave us. TypeScript is sooo close to C# that I feel like I am coding everything in "C".


    I agree, TypeScript feels great and it is fun to learn the slight differences. Especially Angular CLI makes it easy to get projects started. Most of the time I do my work on macOS with VS Code now. Using the “Debugger for Chrome” extension is close to “Edit and Continue”, because on code changes the current route is reloaded in the browser and hits a breakpoint if you want to. So, you don’t need to navigate to a modal dialog over and over on code changes. PrimeNG is worth to mention as well. This control library is huge – there was nothing similar back in the LightSwitch days and Radzen also uses PrimeNG.

    Playing with breeze.bridge.angular to connect to an existing LightSwitch service is also interesting – remember: http://blog.pragmaswitch.com/?tag=breezejs

    I would say that you can be at least as productive as you were with Silverlight and have the additional value of platform independency.

    BTW: +1 Radzen Developer Community


    • Edited by ethnoplex Thursday, June 8, 2017 1:12 PM
    Thursday, June 8, 2017 10:02 AM
  • Super cool to hear the great feedback everyone.  Thank you for taking the time to share, @novascape, @Otis, and @ADefwebserver (names are back in the posts -- it appears that somebody is listening! :) ).

    To be honest, I've been getting back into artwork again.  Or 3D modelling and digital sketching, that is -- with my Surface Pro no less.  I am thinking it might be nice to take a year and focus on that while the dust settles on .NET Core and TypeScript/Web tech.

    To me, the true value in development is to use one language all the way through.  The point here is that I can share code anywhere and don't spend a large % time duplicating efforts in different places of my solution.  I am sure everyone can share the frustration of having to repeat yourself during a phone call or even in your relationships.  The same goes for code, which as we know can very much feel like a relationship!

    Anyways, there is appeal to using TypeScript but unfortunately the JavaScript library ecosystem is incredibly disjointed and incohesive (right word? haha).  It's not as pretty as .NET in this regard.  But, perhaps another year will help shake that out.

    Thursday, June 8, 2017 11:56 AM
  • OK all... you got me piqued. :)  Do you have a really nice/simple hello world TypeScript application/solution somewhere that I can easily try some of the latest magic to see how it fits my tastes?

    @josh I see yours here:

    https://github.com/akorchev/radzen-end-to-end-application

    Thank you for this.  Will be checking this out and am definitely interested in any others that are out there!

    Ideally it would be great to have a solution that ties into ASP.NET Core for backend and also NodeJS.  Again for me I would like something to be consistent all the way through, so NodeJS is preferred, but keeping an open mind here w/ .NET Core as well.

    Also, is everyone using VS2017 or are they using another IDE?  JetBrains has WebStorm so I am curious if anyone is using that?

    I will leave you with a little message from Tao Te Ching that really spoke to me.  Maybe it will help others as well:

    Whatever is flexible
    & flowing 
    will tend to grow,

    Whatever is rigid
    & blocked
    will wither and die.

    Friday, June 9, 2017 8:06 AM
  • The link is not my work.  It is a RadZen app that was made by the Radzen developers at Michael's request to mimic his 'end-to-end' - LS HTML app.

    I wrote the following email the other day to a fellow LS friend:

    I’m at a point where I want a tooling to do a few simple things at a minimum:

    1. Easily connect to data and maintain entity models between client and server
    2. Generate or scaffold starter model-view pairs
    3. Output to disk so I can create a github repo and break away from tooling at anytime
    4. Handle the CLI stuff to build-debug-run with a button click.  No interest in getting all the compile, transpile, build, test & watch stuff installed and setup only to have then to use command line.

    Radzen does this and more.  And it's very flexible under the covers...

    PS…looking at a bit deeper at RadZen under the covers:

    • It’s entirely node.js in electron wrapper
    • There is a node module for controls named radzen\angular and one for generation called Radzen\angular-generator
      • Both of these could be swapped out to give support for other frameworks
      • Both of these could be OOS’d for community contribution – (while still having commercial value to the Radzen product, IMHO)
    • It uses ejs templates for generating both js and cs code. https://github.com/mde/ejs  You can see all the templates in node module when Radzen is installed.
    • It persists its own data source meta as swagger 2.0, extended to support primary keys, navigation properties, etc.
    • He created a module to convert from OData metadata to swagger
    • Basically the last two above means OData, REST, or SQL  > Swagger > Code Gen (class models for both js and cs (if SQL backend)) 

    Aside from being ng-only, I’m finding Radzen to be just what we wished for – especially if more bits go OSS and other frameworks follow.

    At this point, I believe, if more LS devs got onboard with Radzen, we could provide feedback to make it exactly what we want and my experience with the creators makes me believe they'd be both willing and grateful.

    PSS...regarding full-stack one language - I believe Radzen could be made to generate a Node.js backend instead of dotnet and then it would be js full stack.

    HTH,

    Josh

    Friday, June 9, 2017 1:23 PM
  • that all sounds good and the price is fair.

    keep that the price will go up does like I Alphasoftware did it started when ik bought 5 years ago at $1100.00.

    These days it is $2500.00 a year on subscription  if you dont pay the developer version it will be locked reason i moved to LS now i on meteor and galaxy

    Not saying these guys from RADZEN will do the same thing that is my intention so too speak.

    Also works on linux and what is a great benefit.

    Cheers


    Eric

    Friday, June 9, 2017 1:47 PM
  • Really awesome stuff Josh, thank you so much for that info and for the clarification.  I have to say I am inspired now.  A few friends of mine are hopping over to NativeScript as well, so that adds to it.

    Consider that MSFT is essentially asking .NETers to start over again with their .NET Core stack.  If we're going to start over anyways, why not go for something that is completely and genuinely ubiquitous?  No more having to petition MSFT and being ignored for something very obviously valuable and worthwhile.

    @Eric, thank you for pointing out the price!  I am really surprised they don't have a community edition.  Please like/retweet/reply here:

    https://twitter.com/MikeEEE76/status/873192402995085312

    Finally:

    >Also works on linux and what is a great benefit.

    JS works EVERYWHERE my man... that's why it is more valuable and offers more cost-effective solutions than .NET.

    Friday, June 9, 2017 3:02 PM
  • You're welcome.  Try it out and thank the guys at Radzen too!

    .net core is pretty awesome and I'm happy Radzen gens that backend for SQL > OData.  I'm not convinced full-stack js is that important for my projects.  That said, I rather liked the nodejs backend in Azure Mobile Apps 'Easy Tables' - complete with server-side node functions hooking CRUD operations and also 'Easy API' functions.

    I enjoy visual studio for SSDT database work with EF migrations.

    I think my ideal would be a separate server backend that would publish to Azure as an API App.

    SQL Server > EF Code First > Migrations > WebAPI OData v4 (with RESTier if they actually continue the thing)

    Plus Radzen App for HTML5 UI with the dotnet core generated server possibly as the 'middle-tier'.  

    We'd have to work with Radzen to get them to allow configuration option to generate a server project for OData Source.  Presently they generate one only for SQL Server datasources, but in my laymens view of their metadata and generation, it looks like they could do that - maybe.

    So I like Visual Studio 2017 for backend: SSDT, EF & WebAPI-OData

    And I like VSCode & Radzen for HTML5 js FrontEnd 

    HTH,

    Josh

    Friday, June 9, 2017 3:53 PM
  • LOL Josh, you clearly have a higher tolerance for dealing with two different codebases and having to do the same damn thing in two damn places. :P

    I guess I could check it out to see what is really involved here.  To me I simply like knowing that if there's something I have already solved, I simply add it right in and don't have to worry about it.

    I have also heard about developers basically using the HTML UI as a proxy to send async calls straight into the API controller, so the actual amount of HTML5/JS/CSS UI is extremely minimal.  

    I of course have over 15 years of .NET experience, so it is hard to imagine giving it up completely, but again if I have to start over... why not go all the way.

    So, clearly some things to investigate over the next year. :)

    Friday, June 9, 2017 7:29 PM
  • The discussion platform for Radzen is now available at:

    http://forum.radzen.com 

    Best regards,
    Michael

    • Edited by ethnoplex Wednesday, June 14, 2017 1:09 PM
    Wednesday, June 14, 2017 12:52 PM
  • Check it out:

    https://github.com/SteveSanderson/Blazor

    Primitive, but promising.

    Wednesday, June 28, 2017 3:08 PM