Possible solution to horrid 3D User Experience?

    General discussion

  • I am literally sick to my stomach over the in-browser elevated trust requirements to use XNA graphics in SL5. I have made promises based on demos that I've shown, and signed contracts. Now I'm supposed to ask users to alter their registry if they wish to use my application. Why have XNA at all? I think there might be a lawsuit here because Microsoft knew they were going to do this, but didn't tell anyone. How the hell can I ask someone to alter their registry?

    Anyway... I need solutions.

    My application only uses XNA for 2-D graphics but is needed for immediate mode because my scenes are far too complex for retained mode. It's a CAD system with potentially hundreds of thousands of objects, and the algorithms that act on those objects are a nightmare in Javascript.

    I'm going to attempt to render into an HTML5 canvas from Silverlight, but does anyone else have any ideas?


    Saturday, December 17, 2011 10:14 AM

All replies

  • XNA is needing elevated trust because it can execuse shader code in the gpu and that can be used by malicious code.

    Now, you're right, I'm fightning, without any result unfortunately, since months and months with people from SL team to ask for a simple authorization system, not something as crazy as a certificate and registry modification.

    Someone at MS who is taking decision about this subject is totally out of the reality.

    I fully understand your anger, you're right, they're crazy. Such limitation make the good job impossible to use in a true application.

    A simple question to the user , as to expand the Isolated storage and to get simple elevated trust should have been enough.

    But this unknown stupid person has decided to make certificate mandatory plus a registry modification ! He/she should be fired immediately.

    But now you have to deal with you promises... Perhaps you've learnt something : never promise something to a customer before you're sure you will be able to supply it...

    Ok, so now you have to find a way out.

    First, are you forced to used a complex graphic engine since you just need 2D ?

    If not, why not using xaml ? It's up to your program to manage the thousand objects you're speaking about. If you're not using complex animations involving thousands of objects I'm sure xaml is enough.

    To see what's the best solution perhaps can you explain a bit more what you're application must do..

    Saturday, December 17, 2011 1:30 PM
  • Thank you for your reply.


    XAML is not up to the task. I have real-time pan and zoom on millions of verticies with XNA, but XAML lags to the point of losing events.


    There is hope. I browsed to the Babylon engine demo page and only asks me to right-click to the Silverlight properties dialog and accept 3-D rendering. I want to do whatever they are doing.

    Sunday, December 18, 2011 4:37 AM
  • Babylon runs only in OOB no ?

    Of course, even if it's true, it is far more usable than a certificate and a registry modification...

    If you test Babylon with millions of vertices, come back to tell us how good it is.

    Thanks advance !

    Sunday, December 18, 2011 11:12 AM
  • Babylon actually does run in-browser.



    I still have to use XAML for the Mac, but the thought was for complex designs, I could direct people to the Windows platform for high performance. I wish I could direct you to my app, but the people paying the bills have it under lock and key.



    Sunday, December 18, 2011 4:52 PM
  • Babylon actually does run in-browser.


    Actually when I'm following the link I get a message asking to allow 3D but IE9 is frozen, I can't interact with the dialog.

    I already this kind of bug with SL, I think I must launch IE in admin mode.

    So... if this is doing the same for your customer, that's not a good UX...

    [EDIT] Yes IE must be ran in admin mode to access to 3D parameter withoutr freezing the browser. Really annoying for customers. But the lib seems to be ok, nice randering. A bit slow (and I'm 8 cores), but usable when render is ok.

    Sunday, December 18, 2011 8:18 PM
  • Do like many large software companies do.  Have a release that doesnt work, and then come out with a patch.  The patch will be a routine that has to run on their computer, that wiill install a cert and update their registry.

    Tuesday, December 20, 2011 4:36 PM
  • I tested SL5 3D (XNA?) for the last couple of days.

    The idea was that I could move a game engine from XNA to web and provide a branded version to companies. (think facebook-app/contest/promotion).

    The problem is that currently the User eXperience provided by silverlight+XNA makes it imposible to sell!
    You simply can't walk into a presentation and tell them that the user/customer has to make 4 extra clicks into setting and through security warnings in order to get *engaged* in the *activity*. This is a complete fealure.

    The only viable options for this kind of business are Flash/Stage3D, Unity, and webGL. 
    Silverlight 5 is capable to compete with those techologies but miraculously managed to keep away from this market.
    For me this is a loss, since porting my game to flash would be out of question.

    I understant that security is top priority for microsoft and when it comes to it, sides with the user, not with the designer/programmer.
    But perhaps microsoft could sandbox it better in order to provide a true web experience. On WP7 for example there is no option to build your own shader, just use the 5 effect build into xna.

    Hope some smart microsoft people are reading this.
    See you again after Silverlight 6 ...







    Wednesday, July 04, 2012 8:40 PM