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EW4 crashes frequently RRS feed

  • Question

  • I never had so many crashes as I now do with EW4. I'm sure others are getting by mostly error free, but I just want to put this out there so others may know they aren't alone. Generally when the program crashes, I am simply copying and pasting urls into a link page. I paste them into design view for the most part. Type my text, highlite the link, right-click select hyperlink, alt-tab to browser and copy url, alt-tab and paste into dialog box. That's it. And it frequently ... just ... stops ... working. But I have learned to save the page with every edit I make!
    Monday, July 19, 2010 10:42 PM

All replies

  • Try posting an error log.  Maybe someone can help.

    Tuesday, July 20, 2010 4:00 AM
  • I don't know how to post an error log. I was just relaying an experience that I am having that I haven't had with previous versions. I just want others to know they are not alone.

    Something is wrong with EW4. Many may not see it, but I see several posts about crashes with EW4.

    I like EW, and will suffer through, but this isn't beta software (is it?). It just acts that way.

     

     

     

     

    Tuesday, July 20, 2010 4:58 AM
  • Try this.

    Completely delete all windows logs in Event Viewer, restart PC, restart EW4, when it crashes close it and then open event  viewer.

    The event viewer should provide an error log.

    If you have Kaspersky 2010 installed uninstall it and install the latest version of KIS2011  version 11.0.1.400 - from Kaspersky Global web site.

    Hope this helps.

     

     

     

     

     

     

    Tuesday, July 20, 2010 11:01 PM
  • "Something is wrong with EW4. Many may not see it, but I see several posts about crashes with EW4."

    Well, just to be clear...Just because EW4 crashes doesn't mean that there is something wrong with EW4. The problem with Kaspersky causing the crash was entirely Kaspersky's fault. EW was doing something perfectly legitimate and Kaspersky caused the crash. It is entirely Kaspersky's responsibility to fix the flaw in THEIR software (as they are indeed doing). You can't blame the tree just because you drove your car into it.

    I don't for a minute suggest that EW 4 (or any software) is perfect. I'm just trying to show that the cause and effect are not always so clear cut. If there were indeed something wrong with EW that causes these crashes, the problem would be universal. But it isn't. It is very limited. And the danger in assuming that the fault is EW's is that it distracts one from looking for the real problem in the increasingly complex computer environments.

    Chemartist has the right idea. Generate an error log and see what it says. It may be a faulty .NET installation or bad video drivers or bad mouse drivers or mismatched memory sticks--any number of things that may be interfering with a program that may be behaving in a perfectly normal, legal manner.


    So a skeleton walks into a bar and orders a beer. And a mop.
    Wednesday, July 21, 2010 12:03 AM
  • Bill, I get it. And I'm not trying to be argumentative.

    But the logic I'm following is this: I've used *every* version of EW. Version 3 for sure on the same computer, and possibly version 2. I'm bad on dates... (I'm a big fan of EW and wouldn't want to do my site without it.)

    But I have *never* experienced the number of crashes that I get now with EW4.

    Nothing about my computer has changed since recently installing EW4.

    Crashes don't have to be "universal" to mean something fishy is going on in a newly-released software version, does it? And how would you know? How many EW users actually take the time to come here and post (or vent) out of what is the supposed user base?

    And the fact that it crashes on my desktop computer *and* my notebook... does that mean anything?

    As I said earlier, I've leaned to save with *every* edit, and it is farly painless to  just restart the program. I just think it's odd, and I wanted to be on record here for others who might have crashes with EW4 in numbers they never had with previous versions.

    And I bet those crashes go away with 4.1.

     

     

     

     

     

     

    Wednesday, July 21, 2010 2:43 AM
  • Oh, I understand. But 3 was a completely different animal than 2 (different code base and all), and 4 has lots of new parts too (although not radically different as 3 is from 2). It's the interactivity with the hardware and software in you computer(s) that's the problem. But it doesn't mean that it's EW's fault.

    And since this forum is now the sole source of free "tech support" offered by MS, yes, I do think that we'd hear many (most?) of the problems from the user base.

    I had the official boxed version of Scrabble on my last computer. It would not run unless I lowered the hardware acceleration to its lowest setting. Not the software's fault, though--it was perfectly fine. The problem was the demands that it put on my video subsystem that my computer couldn't deal with properly. And it's not a particularly flashy game; it just uses display methods (perfectly legitimate) that my computer balked at with higher hardware acceleration settings.

    A similar thing happened with Windows XP when it was released--blue screens of death all over the place. Not Window's fault. Over 75% of the BSoD were caused by subcontracted, third-party video drivers used by one popular video card maker who was trying to save a Rupee by farming the work out overseas. When the drivers were updated, suddenly Windows started working properly, even though Windows hadn't been fixed.

    That's all I'm getting at. The problem is interoperability.

    And, now that I think about it--lower your video hardware acceleration settings and see if that does help.


    So a skeleton walks into a bar and orders a beer. And a mop.
    Wednesday, July 21, 2010 3:03 AM
  • Hi Bill. I think this is interesting, but I have to admit I don't completely follow your argument.

    Not to be too thick (I hope), this again is situation: computer working fine for a few years. All software working fine. Windows 7. Office 2010. Etc. Everything.

    So I install EW4 and "whoosh"... Several crashes (of EW4). And this is not EW4's fault?  Maybe it's a higher level of program thinking than I'm familiar with or above my pay grade? And although I think I could Bing the internets and find out about video hardware acceleration settings, I'm wondering why I'd go down that road if everything else (*everything* else) has been fine at what it is set at. What if something else works less effectively with lowering the settings (yes, clearly I'm clueless on what that all means. Sorry.)

    So we're having this party. Everybody is getting along great. Same party every Friday for years. Then, a new Pizza Guy comes in, lights his cig & the curtains catch on fire.

    But it's not the pizza guy at fault, it's the cotton curtains. If I would have taken down the curtains, the pizza guy is in the clear.

    Is that sort of what you're saying?

     

     

    Thursday, July 22, 2010 3:30 AM
  • toskey, don't use "program thinking" (what is it, by the way?). Use systems thinking , instead!
    Thursday, July 22, 2010 4:19 AM
  • EW4 interoperates with Net 4 framework, and I believe relies more on WPF (since WPF artifacts of EW's windows interacting with other windows on both my systems are different for me with EW3 and EW4).  In other words, other software than EW4, and video drivers, big time.  And I'm sure there are more.

    So, yes, it can be something other than EW4.  In fact, if it were just EW4, we'd see a lot more people talking about your specific issue: repeated crashes with the steps you outlined.  They don't have any effect on my systems at all: no crashes.

    Thursday, July 22, 2010 4:34 AM
  • So we're having this party. Everybody is getting along great. Same party every Friday for years. Then, a new Pizza Guy comes in, lights his cig & the curtains catch on fire. But it's not the pizza guy at fault, it's the cotton curtains. If I would have taken down the curtains, the pizza guy is in the clear.

    This is a very interesting question but more to the point, was EW4 crashing before the Pizza Guy arrived?
    Thursday, July 22, 2010 4:39 AM
  • No. That's a silly, pointless analogy that has no bearing on what I said.

    First off, it means nothing that other programs run fine on your computer, because none of them are built on the Windows Presentation Foundation, as Expression Web is. None of their toolbars are controlled or generated the way EW's is, yet they look very similar, with identical icons in many cases. And most of the programs on your computer don't need the .NET framework (which by itself is, on my computer, over 615 MB!).

    Most of the other programs also don't have the astoundingly complex video requirements that the EW display has--just consider the different panels and what they have to do (especially the Design Pane). Just as WoW or Media Viewer use different parts of your video driver than Office, EW makes its own demands on the video subsystem, with entirely different hooks into different little programs and functionalities. Your video driver has all sorts of special functionalities to suit the needs of various programs; Direct3D or OpenGL--which one? Both? Have you overridden the antialiasing settings? How about the anisotropic filtering? (I'm not for a moment suggesting that any of that is the problem because I don't know what EW uses--I'm just illustrating the incredible complexity of the entire system that is a Windows computer.) Maybe your computer has a bad implementation of DirextX, maybe mismatched memory modules, maybe it's overclocked and unstable only under certain conditions.

    EW may be doing everything by the book, yet crashes on your computer, as it did with computers running Kaspersky Internet Security. There was absolutely nothing wrong with EW or the way it operated; it was all Kaspersky's fault. But it wasn't Kaspersky that crashed--it was EW. And there was nothing that MS could do to "fix" it; it wasn't broken. Kaspersky didn't make anything else crash, yet it still wasn't EW's fault. See my point?

    I'm constantly amazed that computers work at all, given their complexity. I only have 2 programs running right now, yet there are 65 processes and 823 threads with over 20,000 handles, all coexisting peacefully.

    So try some other troubleshooting. Do as Chemartist suggested 2 days ago--get an error log and post it. Be proactive. Without an error log we're flying blind.


    So a skeleton walks into a bar and orders a beer. And a mop.
    Thursday, July 22, 2010 5:16 AM
  • I also have EW4 crashing quite regularly on 2 separate PCs, losing lots of time and work in the process.  Here is a recent Application Event Log of one of the 5 crashes in the past 24 hours: (both on Win7 - one Pro & one Home Prem)

    EVENT ID: 1000  TASK CATEGORY: (100)
    Faulting application name: ExpressionWeb.exe, version: 4.0.1165.0, time stamp: 0x4bfaf4bc
    Faulting module name: ntdll.dll, version: 6.1.7600.16559, time stamp: 0x4ba9b21e
    Exception code: 0xc015000f
    Fault offset: 0x000817cf
    Faulting process id: 0x2c0
    Faulting application start time: 0x01cb29a9185469ec
    Faulting application path: C:\Program Files\Microsoft Expression\Web 4\ExpressionWeb.exe
    Faulting module path: C:\Windows\SYSTEM32\ntdll.dll
    Report Id: ae75d229-959c-11df-a576-001676bc6c5c

    I can actually cause it to happen sometimes - if I have a page with a complex table on it and I try to select some text and then type diretly over the text (i.e. replace it), the screen goes grey and EW4 blows up and loses everything.

    My $.02 ...

    Thursday, July 22, 2010 4:46 PM
  • Go here: http://www.95isalive.com/fixes/ew4.htm and download FP Cleaner for EW 4
    Download links are at the bottom of the page.
    Run the functions that clear:
    The Hidden Temporary files.
    The Hidden Cache (*.web) files.

    See if it helps.


    Expression Web MVP
    Thursday, July 22, 2010 5:06 PM
  • I never had so many crashes as I now do with EW4. I'm sure others are getting by mostly error free, but I just want to put this out there so others may know they aren't alone. Generally when the program crashes, I am simply copying and pasting urls into a link page. I paste them into design view for the most part. Type my text, highlite the link, right-click select hyperlink, alt-tab to browser and copy url, alt-tab and paste into dialog box. That's it. And it frequently ... just ... stops ... working. But I have learned to save the page with every edit I make!


    Go here: http://www.95isalive.com/fixes/ew4.htm and download FP Cleaner  for EW 4
    Download links are at the bottom of the page.
    Run the functions that clear:
    The Hidden Temporary files.
    The Hidden Cache (*.web) files.

    See if it helps.


    Expression Web MVP
    Thursday, July 22, 2010 5:07 PM
  • Thanks for the cleaner idea - I ran it and it did clean all the files indicated, but it doesn't seem to have stopped this crashing issue.  EW4 just blew up again while I was editing a large table of html data (5 columns by about 12 rows).  Just selecting the text in one of the cells and then pressing backspace to delete it causes EW4 to totally fail as above.  Can you say: F*R*U*S*T*R*A*T*I*N*G?!?
    Monday, July 26, 2010 4:26 PM
  • The only other thing I can think of is to set the machine to clear the paging file on shutdown because a corrupt paging file can casue programs to crash.
    Microsoft instructions here: http://support.microsoft.com/kb/314834
    It says windows 2000 but it works vor XP. vista and 7

    Then go to C:\Windows\Prefetch and delete everything in Prefetch EXCEPT the readyboot folder
    and then reboot the machine twice, once to set the regitry setting, the second time to clear the paging file.

    As for the deleted Prefetch entries, windows will recreate what it needs as programs are launched.

     


    Expression Web MVP
    Monday, July 26, 2010 6:29 PM
  • I've been using EW4 for about six weeks. It crashes daily, at least once, sometimes several times, and I lose everything each time. Very, very frustrating.

    I upgraded from EW 1 - which I didn't like but at least it seemed stable. I purchased EW3 then went right into the EW4 upgrade in July.

    I still have Front Page 2003 on my system and it works fine. Seems I have to switch back to it if I want to get any work done.

    I run many, many programs without any of them crashing - I have XP Pro, all upgraded (drivers too), 4GB RAM, top-end ATI graphics card. Corel Draw, Paintshop Pro, Painter, Adobe Acrobat 9, MS Office 2007, and dozens more - including many resource-intensive games - all work fine every day without a single crash.

    EW4 is dependable in that it will crash at least once per session. No repeatable event seems to cause it. Open a file, select text, spell check, save an open file, search open pages - all crashed the program. One file open or a dozen, doesn't matter. No chance to save, just locks up and shuts down. Mostly crashes in design view, but code or split view crashes have happened, too although less often.

    When I report the problem - as I always do - the message I get from MS is that there is no information. Translates to no help, you're on your own. Don't slam the door on your way out.

    Seems from this forum that others have the same problem. Conclusion: EW4 is buggy and unfinished, a beta version foisted on the public.

    Thursday, September 2, 2010 12:42 PM
  • You have an unusual reasoning path. You generalize from the relatively few reports of crashes here to the conclusion that EW4 is buggy and unfinished. Apparently the fact that thousands of us run EW4 everyday, all day, without seeing these crashes even once, carries no weight whatsoever in your reasoning. Nor does the fact that several of those who reported crashing have come back to report that they found the reason, and it wasn't EW at all.

    No, since you've had crashes, and a dozen or so others have reported them here, too (regardless of whether the symptoms were even similar in each case), the problem is obviously with EW, and not with an outdated video driver, or corrupted or faulty dotNET install, or as in one case described, a bad memory stick, or any of the ten thousand other things that might cause problems. Clearly, the fault must be with EW4, even though the successful experiences of tens of thousands of other users does not point to that conclusion.

    pretzel logic...

     


    C'mon, folks. This isn't rocket science, nor neurosurgery. It's "Expression" (singular) "Web" (singular), in that order, followed by a version numeral if you wish to be specific. It is often abbreviated "EW." It is not "Web Expression," "Expressions Web," "Web Expressions," or plain "Expression" or "Expressions." Not using the correct name indicates either ignorance or laziness. Most folks would rather avoid the appearance of either.
    Thursday, September 2, 2010 2:51 PM
  • Causes of crashes are often quite complex and many involve interoperability issues. The auto-reporting feature does send a crash report to us. That information is analyzed via an automated process, and if we have any information on helping with that particular issue, you will be directed to that information. Unfortunately, because crashes can have so many causes, many times you won't get any information. It's not because we don't want to help you.

    If you can create a dump and put it where I can get to it, I can look into this and see if I can help you. You can get instructions for getting a dump here:

    http://social.expression.microsoft.com/Forums/en-US/web/thread/eb4c9852-1f2d-4d59-9bf3-3a35f97127cd/

    Jim

     

    Thursday, September 2, 2010 3:43 PM
    Moderator
  • I get tons of crashes as well, on two different laptops (both Win7, one 32 bit and one 64 bit)  Doesn't seem to crash as much on the desktop, but it does crash.  A lot. 
    Thursday, September 2, 2010 8:26 PM
  • I have had a few crashes as well and habitualy save. A friend at a larger development firm already stopped using V4 because of what he says are stability issues. I realize the great majority of users may not experience these things or to the degree as others may but I also think that its rather hard to draw conclusions from the respondents here alone. I can live with the performance and just save- a good habit anyway, but I know that my buddy just removed it from his machine and moved on. Some people dont report or say a thing when its the companies money, they just move on.

    Regardless of the cause, when expectations are not met or a customer is unwilling to endure the hassle factor then they most often blame the product deserving or not. EW4 is the best version yet so it is worth some effort to make it work within reason. 

    Thursday, September 2, 2010 9:55 PM
  • I've gone back to EW3 until SP1 comes out, EW4 crashes every time I use it.  I have a desk top computer with Vista 64 bit and a fairly new laptop with Windows 7 both have problems with EW4.
    Friday, September 3, 2010 1:36 AM
  • Why not follow the suggestion to do a crash dump and find out what is wrong?
    Friday, September 3, 2010 2:50 AM
  • ..an outdated video driver, or corrupted or faulty dotNET install, or as in one case described, a bad memory stick,...pretzel logic...


    I've reinstalled everything possible incuding dotnet. EW4 still crashes daily. I've run CHKDSK and other hardware scans on every drive even my USB backup drives. Still crashes daily. I've done tests on 4GB of memory that take hours to complete and not found a bad bit. Still crashes daily. I've run thorough AV and ani-spyware scans. Still crashes daily. Video drivers were updated weeks ago to the latest version. Still crashes daily. I've reduced, halted or removed memory resident programs. Still crashes daily. I've run repair and upgrade functions on every Windows component and add-on I could find. Still crashes daily. I've spent six weeks hunting down this problem and reinstalling, rebuilding, repairing, scanning, testing and tweaking everything I could find. Still crashes daily. I've cleaned, preened, defragged and polished my hard drives. Still crashes daily. I've dumped temp files, to ensure a huge amount of free drive space (is 233 GB free too little for EW4?). Still crashes daily.

    Six weeks with no respite from daily crashes and no answers on any MS site.

    Must be my fault? Come on. I run dozens of apps every day, from graphic programs to coding software, games, Office apps, net apps, FTP apps, email, Adobe and Corel apps, music recording apps, video playback and editing apps. None of them crashes with such frustrating regularity. With every other piece of software, a crash is rare. With EW4 it's a daily experience. Daily. I cannot recall a single day it has not done so since I downloaded it.

    I can run a system-intensive FPS with other apps open in the background and not even seem a frame rate drop. I can open every MS Office 2007 app I have at once, along with with IE8, Paintshop Pro X3 and Corel Draw X5, and nothing crashes.

    I have EW4 open alone, with everything else shut down, and it will crash. Guaranteed. Ka-boom. FP 2003 doesn't crash. EW1 doesn't crash. Coffee Cup HTML editor doesn't crash. Xara Web Site Builder doesn't crash.

    So although everything else is stable, my dual-core system is running at its peak efficiency, I have oodles or RAM, Video RAM, disk space and everything is updated, and althoughEW4 is the only program that crashes every single day it is used, it's "pretzel logic" to assume the fault lies with EW4?

    Sigh.

    Friday, September 3, 2010 1:36 PM
  • And in all this, have you yet gotten a crash dump to see what's happening?  See Jim's offer, above, to take a look at one.

     

    Friday, September 3, 2010 2:00 PM
  • So although everything else is stable, my dual-core system is running at its peak efficiency, I have oodles or RAM, Video RAM, disk space and everything is updated, and althoughEW4 is the only program that crashes every single day it is used, it's "pretzel logic" to assume the fault lies with EW4?

    Yes, because despite that inexhaustible list, you managed to leave out, to ignore, the one salient datum that indicates otherwise—thousands of people, myself included, run EW4 every day with no problem whatsoever. None. If the problem were with EW, none of us would be able to do so, and all of us would be crashing daily. Stating that a factor is causal of an event when that factor demonstrably does not cause that event in the preponderance of cases is faulty reasoning, no matter how long a post you want to make of it.

    Believe me, I feel for your plight. I had something similar happen to me about a year and a half ago. I had installed Adobe Creative Suite Design Premium CS4 a few months earlier. I then installed Visual Studio 2008 Professional. A little later I found that none of the Design Premium apps that had to do with the Web, Dreamweaver, Flash, or Fireworks, would run. They wouldn't even open.

    I recalled the VS install of a couple weeks before, so I uninstalled it, then used System Restore to roll back to before that point, just for good measure. Then I deactivated and uninstalled the Creative Suite. I then installed Visual Studio first, followed by the Creative Suite. Problem resolved, and I have since upgraded to VS 2010, as well as receiving numerous Adobe Updates, and still no issues.

    This event is actually chronicled here somewhere, among my posts from that time period, if you care to take the trouble to look it up. The point I'm trying to get across is that there is no telling what caused the Adobe products to crash. Was it something in them? Well, they ran just fine until VS was installed. Was it something in the VS install? Maybe, but then, everything was fine when the install order was reversed.

    My personal guess is that it was a modern play on "DLL ____," and that a crucial dll was replaced in the VS install that caused the Adobe crashes. Reversing the install order ensured that that dll was the version Adobe needed. There's no way to ever know for sure, but the point is that it was the Adobe product that was crashing, not the product that seems to have initiated the crashes. VS started and ran just fine.

    Likewise, the fact that it is EW4 crashing in your case does not demonstrate that the fault of your crashes lies with EW, particularly in light of the evidence that EW runs without issue on the vast majority of installations. That would not be possible if EW4 were inherently faulty in such a manner as to cause these crashes. We would all see them in that case, and we do not.

    cheers,
    scott

     


    C'mon, folks. This isn't rocket science, nor neurosurgery. It's "Expression" (singular) "Web" (singular), in that order, followed by a version numeral if you wish to be specific. It is often abbreviated "EW." It is not "Web Expression," "Expressions Web," "Web Expressions," or plain "Expression" or "Expressions." Not using the correct name indicates either ignorance or laziness. Most folks would rather avoid the appearance of either.
    Friday, September 3, 2010 2:34 PM
  • I just wanted to add my voice.  In one of my layouts, if I edit any cell in an particular column of a table, EW4 crashes. It happens every time.

    Interestingly, if I remove the $ dollar-signs from that column before attempting to edit, then it works fine.  It seem that EW4 has a problem editing the $ character when it is in a table cell.  Actually, that;'s not even completely true, because the column right next to it has dollar signs, and those cells can be edited without generating a crash. I have suffered through the reporting process about ten times, but it takes it a very long time to make it through that process, so Microsoft will not have reports for anything close to the actual number of crashes.

    There seems to be some feeling here that if the software does not crash for a certain group of people, that there could be no problem with the software.  And yet, it is a problem, none the less.  If I make the mistake of editing that column in design view, it will die.  If I do not remember to save after every single edit, I will lose time.  And at some level, if Microsoft has created software that can run perfectly on one computer, but not on another computer, that in itself could be considered to be a failure.  Practically speaking, if Microsoft does not provide any tools to verify that all of the interdependent components are present and able to support EW4, then it just needs to work, as the end user would be powerless to troubleshoot the problem.

    With regards to the comment that thousands of people run EW4 without crashing, I have to wonder if that is actually true.  Support for the product seems to be just about non-existent, so it would not be too surprising to me if most of the people having problems just don't know how to report them.

    If there is some way to officially report this as a bug, I would be willing to do so.

    -Mark

    Friday, September 3, 2010 6:09 PM
  • If you have a reporducable case MS would love to hear from you with the files that trigger the crash. Paul and several others who work for MS and visit here occasionally (not part of their job description and done basically on their own time) have asked repeatedly for anyone with a reproducable trigger to file a bug and he'd personally make sure that someone looked into it and do what they can to fix it whether in a service pack (if the version gets one) or in the next version.

    File a bug report over on http://connect.microsoft.com which is the place to file bug reports so MS can get it. That link is posted regularly on this forum as the place to file bug reports under the Expression Studio feedback group.

    This is the user to user forum - see the "social" in the url?

    FWIW, I have noticed that the majority of the people who report crashing issues use tables for layout and either large tables or nested tables. In earlier versions of Expression I've seen reports of problems with tables and this may be another table related issue or it could be like many of the other reports a WPF or ASP.NET issue.

    Given the relatively few posts here by folks having serious crashing problems I do believe that thousands use it w/o any stability issues. I've encountered a few bugs but they rarely lead to a crash but have cuased edits to be lost. Rebooting so far has cured those. I tend not to reboot for sometimes weeks at a time so I guess there gets to be a fair bit of crud left in cache issues but that's just my guess and it hasn't been a big enough hassle for to go to the error logs and figure out what might be causing the issue.


    MS MVP Expression Tutorials & Help http://by-expression.com
    Friday, September 3, 2010 6:24 PM
  • "I have suffered through the reporting process about ten times, but it takes it a very long time to make it through that process"

    I'm not sure what process you are using, but it takes very little time at all to file a bug on Connect, and if you have a reproducible case, to attach the files that do it.

    And as for thousands of people running without crashes: sure, or we'd see a lot more reports here.

    Now, if you can give us a link to the page you can make crash, and specify that cell, I'd love to download it and see what happens for me.  EW4 doesn't crash for me, but if I can make it crash on that file, it would be a "me too!" case for the Connect bug report, on different systems, and that would be significant.

    Friday, September 3, 2010 6:32 PM
  • If you have a reporducable case MS would love to hear from you with the files that trigger the crash. Paul and several others who work for MS and visit here occasionally (not part of their job description and done basically on their own time) have asked repeatedly for anyone with a reproducable trigger to file a bug and he'd personally make sure that someone looked into it and do what they can to fix it whether in a service pack (if the version gets one) or in the next version.

    Definitely.  And what Kathy said, as well.  If you have a reproducible crash, then the Expression Web team definitely wants to hear about it and will fix it.  Mark, if you can give us that page and tell us what cell is causing the problem, we'll try to reproduce the bug and, if we can, will definitely fix it.

    Random, non-reproducible crashes, are a software developer's worst nightmare.  We're definitely prepared to admit to flaws in our code but without the ability to reproduce the crash, it becomes a ____ shoot as to whether we can find it and fix it.


    Paul Bartholomew, Microsoft Expression Web
    Friday, September 3, 2010 9:14 PM
    Moderator
  • If you have a reporducable case MS would love to hear from you with the files that trigger the crash. Paul and several others who work for MS and visit here occasionally (not part of their job description and done basically on their own time) have asked repeatedly for anyone with a reproducable trigger to file a bug and he'd personally make sure that someone looked into it and do what they can to fix it whether in a service pack (if the version gets one) or in the next version.

    File a bug report over on http://connect.microsoft.com which is the place to file bug reports so MS can get it. That link is posted regularly on this forum as the place to file bug reports under the Expression Studio feedback group.

    This is the user to user forum - see the "social" in the url?

    FWIW, I have noticed that the majority of the people who report crashing issues use tables for layout and either large tables or nested tables. In earlier versions of Expression I've seen reports of problems with tables and this may be another table related issue or it could be like many of the other reports a WPF or ASP.NET issue.

    Given the relatively few posts here by folks having serious crashing problems I do believe that thousands use it w/o any stability issues. I've encountered a few bugs but they rarely lead to a crash but have cuased edits to be lost. Rebooting so far has cured those. I tend not to reboot for sometimes weeks at a time so I guess there gets to be a fair bit of crud left in cache issues but that's just my guess and it hasn't been a big enough hassle for to go to the error logs and figure out what might be causing the issue.


    MS MVP Expression Tutorials & Help http://by-expression.com

    You know, it was 100 percent reproducible on the day I posted, but now, not so much.  Very frustrating.  There is little doubt that tables cause more trouble than anything else, but that is not to say that it won't crash when editing something other than a table.  I don't think I've seen it crash when editinge in the code view, but design view is unstable.

    I wish I had a reproducible case to submit, but it looks like MS is going to have to try it for themselves.  I'm sure they have a lot of people and all they need to do is try to actually build a website with EW4 and there will be plenty of crashes to learn from.

    And please keep in mind that I came all the way from FontPage version one to Expression Web 4, and while I have seen plenty of "issues" all along the way, I have never seen all this mind-numbing, work-destroying crashing.

    -Mark

    Thursday, September 16, 2010 9:03 PM
  • I've built or worked on over 100 different sites in Expression Web 3-4 on 3 different machines and have not once had a crash. So I rather doubt that just

    "actually build a website with EW 4 and there will be plenty of crashes to learn from".

    will cause any problems for the folks at MS. They do plenty of site building on the test teams there.


    MS MVP Expression Tutorials & Help http://by-expression.com & Expression Web forums
    Thursday, September 16, 2010 9:17 PM
  • "I have suffered through the reporting process about ten times, but it takes it a very long time to make it through that process"

    I'm not sure what process you are using, but it takes very little time at all to file a bug on Connect, and if you have a reproducible case, to attach the files that do it.

    And as for thousands of people running without crashes: sure, or we'd see a lot more reports here.

    Now, if you can give us a link to the page you can make crash, and specify that cell, I'd love to download it and see what happens for me.  EW4 doesn't crash for me, but if I can make it crash on that file, it would be a "me too!" case for the Connect bug report, on different systems, and that would be significant.

    I meant the automated report process that appears at the time of the crash.  It sometimes takes 10 minutes, and that seems like a very long time when I'm already about to go off the deep end because the thing just crashed for the umpteenth time of the day.

    I guess a lot of people know about this forum, but speaking for myself, when I need help, I would prefer to have something more direct than a forum…if other people feel the same way, they would go somewhere else first.  The only trouble is that there don’t seem to be a whole lot of super-obvious places to go for help with this software.

    You know, having a repeatable issue is not a new wish, nor is it unique to software.  Everyone in every trade where something needs to be fixed would like to have a nice repeatable problem.  But in the real world, that’s not always possible.  And honestly, these crashes are so prevalent that it shouldn’t be too hard for MS to reproduce them.   Just load up a PC with the OS and software that lots of people are using and start trying to build a website.  It can’t be that hard.


    Thursday, September 16, 2010 9:20 PM
  • If you have a reporducable case MS would love to hear from you with the files that trigger the crash. Paul and several others who work for MS and visit here occasionally (not part of their job description and done basically on their own time) have asked repeatedly for anyone with a reproducable trigger to file a bug and he'd personally make sure that someone looked into it and do what they can to fix it whether in a service pack (if the version gets one) or in the next version.

    Definitely.  And what Kathy said, as well.  If you have a reproducible crash, then the Expression Web team definitely wants to hear about it and will fix it.  Mark, if you can give us that page and tell us what cell is causing the problem, we'll try to reproduce the bug and, if we can, will definitely fix it.

    Random, non-reproducible crashes, are a software developer's worst nightmare.  We're definitely prepared to admit to flaws in our code but without the ability to reproduce the crash, it becomes a ____ shoot as to whether we can find it and fix it.


    Paul Bartholomew, Microsoft Expression Web

    No doubt Paul, but unfortunately, I can't give it to you guys the way you'd like to have it.  All I can do at the moment is tell you what’s been happening.  If you guys have some software tools that can trap the errors, I would be happy to run the for you…I don’t think it would take too long to get some data for you.

    -Mark

    Thursday, September 16, 2010 9:23 PM
  • Automated reporting of a crash goes to the Windows team not necessarily to the Expression Web team. For that you have to use Connect.
    MS MVP Expression Tutorials & Help http://by-expression.com & Expression Web forums
    Thursday, September 16, 2010 9:53 PM
  • Automated reporting of a crash goes to the Windows team not necessarily to the Expression Web team. For that you have to use Connect.
    MS MVP Expression Tutorials & Help http://by-expression.com & Expression Web forums


    I know that you are a champion of this software, and at some level, I am glad that your installation is trouble free, but having made my living for many years as a network administrator and/or I.T. support guy, I know from experience that just because one user does not have a problem, that does not in any way mean that others will not.  There are many variables to consider.

    For example, maybe you and/or MS do not have common non-Microsoft software loaded.  I have QuickBooks Enterprise (which is a networked client/server application that uses the .NET framework), eBay Blackthorne (which is a networked SQL Server application that also uses the .NET framework), Photoshop CS5, AutoCAD...and more loaded on my machine...maybe there is an interaction.  Maybe the hardware platforms are different enough that hardware drivers are interacting in unexpected ways.  Maybe everyone who is not having a problem is running Windows 7 or Vista...or even Windows on a Mac instead of XP Pro on PC hardware.  Maybe the people who are not having problems do not use Expression Web in a networked environment. I know several people who use EW on a Mac and theirs is more reliable than mine, which is almost understandable because their Windows installations don't have much of anything running other than EW.  All of their productivity software runs under the Mac OS, so it is not in conflict.

    I don't have any way to know why any other given person would not have a problem with EW, but the fact remains that mine crashes at a rate that would embarrass me if I was on the development team.  It is almost unbelievable to me that it can be so unstable on a machine that never had any stability problem with any other software.  And we do have multiple machines here running EW, all having issues, so it is crystal clear to me that the problem is not isolated to my particular hardware and/or software load.

    If MS can't solve the crashing, maybe they can add an auto-save function.  It's a feature that I have not found myself in need of for well over a decade, but if the software has stability problems that MS cannot or will not otherwise address, auto-save would make the crashing more tolerable.

     

    -Mark

     

    Friday, September 17, 2010 4:13 PM
  • "I meant the automated report process that appears at the time of the crash."

    Frankly that is not useful at all.  It's Connect where you can get to the Expression Developers and attach examples and give any system and other software information, and start (if they want more information) a conversation about it.  The generic Windows report that you are talking about does none of that.  Say "no" to that and you'll save your time.

    Friday, September 17, 2010 5:40 PM
  • If MS can't solve the crashing, maybe they can add an auto-save function.  It's a feature that I have not found myself in need of for well over a decade, but if the software has stability problems that MS cannot or will not otherwise address, auto-save would make the crashing more tolerable.

    -Mark

    That's not a bad idea, although I don't know that I would use it much because I don't experience the crash/hang problems others describe. It's fairly easy to implement, and would at least provide those who do experience these issues with a safety valve against losing extensive work sessions.

    I have run versions of EW ranging from EW2 to EW4 on desktops and laptops with OSes from XP Home to Pro and Vista Home Premium to Ultimate. Like you, I have a full panoply of other software—Visual Studio from 98 Enterprise to VS 2010, Adobe Design Premium CS4/5, SQL Server from Express to 2008, etc.

    It's difficult to say what interactions are causing the problems you observe, because so many of us with similar setups observe no issues at all, while a (relative) few experience crashes or slowdowns. Lack of replicability is a developer's nightmare, and I know the team would love nothing more than to be able to pin down the factors, or combinations of factors, that lead to the program crashing.

    While we're on the subject of saving work, I'd like to note once again that we could really use the ability to preview without saving. I don't know if the recent changes to Connect have deep-sixed the functionality request feedback that existed, along with our votes for it, but it's something that is trivially easy to implement (background-save a copy of the page and then preview from that) and is something that I wish they would get around to implementing.

    cheers,
    scott

    Friday, September 17, 2010 6:45 PM
  • Scott, have you seen the latest version of SlapShot ? It does just that for FF, and possibly IE (not sure if it does, or if you need his IE preview for that). If you haven't yet, check it out.

    Jim

    Friday, September 17, 2010 7:01 PM
  • No, I haven't. I'll do that. Thanks, Jim.

    cheers,
    scott


    C'mon, folks. This isn't rocket science, nor neurosurgery. It's "Expression" (singular) "Web" (singular), in that order, followed by a version numeral if you wish to be specific. It is often abbreviated "EW." It is not "Web Expression," "Expressions Web," "Web Expressions," or plain "Expression" or "Expressions." Not using the correct name indicates either ignorance or laziness. Most folks would rather avoid the appearance of either.
    Friday, September 17, 2010 7:16 PM
  • While we're on the subject of saving work, I'd like to note once again that we could really use the ability to preview without saving. I don't know if the recent changes to Connect have deep-sixed the functionality request feedback that existed, along with our votes for it, but it's something that is trivially easy to implement (background-save a copy of the page and then preview from that) and is something that I wish they would get around to implementing.

    Supposably they ware working through the backlog and the new system is supposed to lead to faster turnaround. To be on the safe side I've refiled a few bugs and/or suggestions I want to make sure aren't lost in the shuffle. 


    MS MVP Expression Tutorials & Help http://by-expression.com & Expression Web forums
    Friday, September 17, 2010 7:44 PM
  • I can attest that I also have this same issue, but with nested DIVs instead of tables.  The curious thing in my case is that it only happens with a partcular style attached to the DIV in question.  It only occurs in design view, and if I remove the style from the element, the crash will not occur.

    Here is the style for your reference:

    div.newsBlock {
    	border-style: dotted;
    	border-width: 1px 0px 0px 0px;
    	border-color: green;
    	margin: 0px 10px 0px 10px;
    }
    

    -Glen
    Thursday, September 23, 2010 5:04 PM
  • BluGen, no one else in this thread has reported being able to cause a problem with the explicit addition of a specific style, so I very much doubt you are having the same issue as anyone else.

    Start your own new thread, include a link to your site and the specific page that contains this, and describe your issue in detail.

    Thursday, September 23, 2010 5:24 PM
  • Thanks Kathy.  I've added a post to another "crash" related thread in the forum as the symptoms described in that thread are almost exactly what I've experienced.  I've only recently noticed the link between the crashes and the applied CSS, and I thought it might be helpful to some other users experiencing the problem.


    -Glen
    Thursday, September 23, 2010 5:31 PM
  • Without testing to prove otherwise, I think it would be very hard to rule out the possibility that attached styles are part of the mix.  Certainly, my tables are styled via an external style-sheet, and I have never tried detaching the style-sheet to see what happens.  If I ever get another case where crashes are recurring, I will certainly give that a try.

    -Mark

    Thursday, September 23, 2010 5:45 PM
  • You know, it's been quite a while, but I do recall a case where a particular style applied under certain circumstances (list-style-type, maybe?) was causing problems. I think that it was long ago, in a gal... er, previous version, but that does ring a bell...

    cheers,
    scott


    C'mon, folks. This isn't rocket science, nor neurosurgery. It's "Expression" (singular) "Web" (singular), in that order, followed by a version numeral if you wish to be specific. It is often abbreviated "EW." It is not "Web Expression," "Expressions Web," "Web Expressions," or plain "Expression" or "Expressions." Not using the correct name indicates either ignorance or laziness. Most folks would rather avoid the appearance of either.
    Thursday, September 23, 2010 6:05 PM
  • A crash is the same symptom no matter what causes it.  It does not mean they all have the same cause.  That you can produce yours with a specific, repeatable action is completely different from the cases discussed in this thread.

    Please, don't make people feel the need to scan 40+ posts to get context.  I strongly advise you, again, to start your own thread with your specific case.

    Thursday, September 23, 2010 6:09 PM
  • Kathy - Not to be argumentative, but the crash is the result, not the symptom.  Also, just because no one else has made the connection between an applied style and the crash caused by a particular edit function in design mode does not make it a seperate issue.

    Thank you for the advise regarding context and starting a new thread and I shall consider these as I continue debugging these crashes.


    -Glen
    Thursday, September 23, 2010 6:46 PM
  • Glen,

    The only way you're going to be able to tell what caused this (maybe) is by getting a crash dump. That can then be debugged in a debugger in order to determine what happened.

    Jim

    Thursday, September 23, 2010 8:02 PM
    Moderator
  • BuGlen, I was using your usage of "symptom" in my reply to you.  You stated: "I've added a post to another "crash" related thread in the forum as the symptoms described in that thread are almost exactly what I've experienced."  Since no one else described a style generated crash, the only thing in common was the crash itself, so "symptoms described in that thread" would have to be the crash.  And my point is valid: a reproducible crash with a known set of steps related to a specific style to produce it is a new beast, not the same as others in this or the other thread.
    Thursday, September 23, 2010 9:24 PM
  • KathyW2,

    For me, EW4 crashes so frequently while in design mode that I would defy you or anyone else to prove that it does not relate to what Glen described.  Speaking for myself, it just crashes while editing in design mode - that's what it does.  It would be comical if it wasn't destroying my productivity.  I have had days where I could make it crash repeatedly by doing the same edit, but that is not to say that it does not crash at other times. 

    So far, no one here has offered any advice as to how to actually track, debug, or solve the problem.  Those who do not have problems simply repeat their feeling that there is no problem, while those who are having problems continue to suffer with a different relaity.

    If any portion of the crashing is, in fact, related in any way to a particular style or style sheet, then I find that to be very good information and I am very pleased that Glen chose to post his experience in this thread.  Maybe it will turn out to have no relationship to my own EW issues, but at least I have something to try.  It may be weak, and it may be hard to correlate, but until today, I had nothing at all.

    So thanks for that Glen.

    -Mark


    Thursday, September 23, 2010 9:47 PM
  • Jim,

    Can you point me to a procedure for getting such a crash dump...and let me know who would like to see it?

    -Mark


    Thursday, September 23, 2010 9:51 PM
  • I guess it would...if I had a server upon which to install "Symbol Server"...and if I was a Microsoft developer with enough experience to install it, use it, and then interpret the results.
    Friday, September 24, 2010 12:16 AM
  • I've been having a similar experience for the past half year. EW4 can be counted on for at least a couple of crashes every day; these days no other programs we have, nor the OS itself, crashes. Something is wrong. We send in the report every time there's a crash.

    Some of the replies point out that the fault may lie in other software installed on the machine. Maybe so. It's a hard cruel world out there and no one developing software for the retail market can assume their's will be the only program on the machine.

     

    We've been using the MS stuff since the first version of FrontPage. But repeatedly losing a half-hours work is expensive. We are looking at alternatives; we have to.

    Sunday, March 6, 2011 6:25 AM
  • This remains a problem.  After many, many crashes, I have come to realize that most of the time EW4 crashes when I am working in design view.  I highlight some text that needs to be changed, then start typing new text, and which point EW4 immediately dies.  Others have already posted steps to recreate this kind of crash here:

    https://connect.microsoft.com/Expression/feedback/details/645367/expression-web-4-crash-every-time-i-highlight-a-word-in-design-mode-then-start-typing#tabs

     


    - Mark
    Friday, April 29, 2011 6:57 PM