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  • Question

  • Does Microsoft have any IDEs that will allow a developer the ability to create independent applications that work on multiple operating systems?

    An independent applications is one that does not require a framework in order to function.

    I have noticed that ever since the introduction of the framework. Security issues are constantly being patched. Applications run slower, and there are too many layers that need to be traversed before an application runs.

    Thank you,


    MRM256

    Saturday, June 17, 2017 9:55 PM

Answers

  • Does Microsoft have any IDEs that will allow a developer the ability to create independent applications that work on multiple operating systems?


    Yes Version 2017 is made to create programs which can run on all major OS systems (Android, IOS and Windows).

    Success
    Cor

    • Marked as answer by MRM256 Sunday, June 18, 2017 2:15 PM
    Sunday, June 18, 2017 7:56 AM

All replies

  • Does Microsoft have any IDEs that will allow a developer the ability to create independent applications that work on multiple operating systems?

    An independent applications is one that does not require a framework in order to function.

    I have noticed that ever since the introduction of the framework. Security issues are constantly being patched. Applications run slower, and there are too many layers that need to be traversed before an application runs.

    Thank you,


    MRM256

    C++

    ...not the managed version. You can do anything you want with it.

    *****

    Security always will be an issue; that won't change. If there are "too many layers", reconsider how your code is structured. In and of itself, managed (dotNET) isn't slow.


    "A problem well stated is a problem half solved.” - Charles F. Kettering

    Saturday, June 17, 2017 10:02 PM
  • Hi Frank:

    I am sorry, but I am confused. When I first started programming the source code was sent to the compiler that took the source code(Fortran, Cobol, Pascal, C, or BASIC) and converted it into binary form. This in turn ran off the CPU from memory.

    When Microsoft Windows introduced Visual Basic which allowed you to make those nice GUIs all you needed to do was compile the source code and include the necessary DLLs and the program would function on any operating system. If I am not mistaken there is a Microsoft Runtime C Redistributable that allows a C++ programs to function.

    To me it seems unnecessarily complicated to compile to MSIL just to send it to JIT then to the CPU. It is more efficient to execute directly from memory.

    I think the extra operational layers between the program and the CPU is the cause of so many security problems that need to be patched ever so often. 

    Simple is better.

    To quote Chief Engineer Montgomery Scott, "The more complicated the plumbing. The easier it is to stop up the drain."


    MRM256

    Saturday, June 17, 2017 10:28 PM
  • Hi Frank:

    I am sorry, but I am confused. When I first started programming the source code was sent to the compiler that took the source code(Fortran, Cobol, Pascal, C, or BASIC) and converted it into binary form. This in turn ran off the CPU from memory.

    When Microsoft Windows introduced Visual Basic which allowed you to make those nice GUIs all you needed to do was compile the source code and include the necessary DLLs and the program would function on any operating system. If I am not mistaken there is a Microsoft Runtime C Redistributable that allows a C++ programs to function.

    To me it seems unnecessarily complicated to compile to MSIL just to send it to JIT then to the CPU. It is more efficient to execute directly from memory.

    I think the extra operational layers between the program and the CPU is the cause of so many security problems that need to be patched ever so often. 

    Simple is better.

    To quote Chief Engineer Montgomery Scott, "The more complicated the plumbing. The easier it is to stop up the drain."


    MRM256

    Windows itself is written in native C, C++ and even C# (not managed) and even some bits of assembly - that's my understanding at least..

    I understand what you're saying about MSIL (CIL), and that does open a huge hole, but the theory is sound: Imagine having to worry about the graphics adapter on this and that computer or the number of processor cores (parallelization) or any of that.

    For the overhead of managed, I think they've done a pretty good job.

    Just my opinion of course. ;-)


    "A problem well stated is a problem half solved.” - Charles F. Kettering

    Saturday, June 17, 2017 10:34 PM
  • Does Microsoft have any IDEs that will allow a developer the ability to create independent applications that work on multiple operating systems?

    An independent applications is one that does not require a framework in order to function.

    I have noticed that ever since the introduction of the framework. Security issues are constantly being patched. Applications run slower, and there are too many layers that need to be traversed before an application runs.

    Thank you,


    MRM256


    It is what it is. You take it or you can leave it. You can go to Open Source and see what it has to offer.
    Saturday, June 17, 2017 11:53 PM
  • Does Microsoft have any IDEs that will allow a developer the ability to create independent applications that work on multiple operating systems?

    An independent applications is one that does not require a framework in order to function.

    I have noticed that ever since the introduction of the framework. Security issues are constantly being patched. Applications run slower, and there are too many layers that need to be traversed before an application runs.

    Thank you,


    MRM256


    It is what it is. You take it or you can leave it. You can go to Open Source and see what it has to offer.

    That's about it, you're right.

    I wouldn't want to have to worry about what the instruction set is for an AMD so-and-so as compared to an Intel such-and-such. I'll let dotNET work through it.

    As for the dependencies though, I think that's a moot point (with Windows). The O/S will have it already installed so I don't see how that's a real issue.


    "A problem well stated is a problem half solved.” - Charles F. Kettering

    Saturday, June 17, 2017 11:59 PM
  • Is there a way to adjust your Visual Studio environment(I am using VS 2013) so it will allow me to make an unmanaged application that will work independently from a USB drive? I would also like to know the IDE/Development environment Microsoft uses to develop their applications and operating systems. 

    My brother flies satellites with a limited response window; about 400 seconds. Before they were using  Sun Microsystems PCs using a near real-time operating system to communicate with the satellites. Then they went to Windows XP with the Framework 2.0 I think and they noticed a significate drop in efficiency.

    I had to look this up. Managed code functions like:

    It is more efficient this way:

    If I am reading this right four levels are removed.

    In the past I never had any problems with the computer's internals with programs written before the introduction of the frameworks. 

    Parallel processing opens up another can of worms and I think would require a whole new generation of development tools. We studied parallel processing back in college when the Crays were the only multiprocessor systems. Now we are using Beowulf clusters. Which in my opinion would really fly if we could be back to the source code->compiler->CPU/MEM->Output model.


    MRM256

    Sunday, June 18, 2017 12:08 AM

  • It is more efficient this way:

    Now you have to manage everything that the framework was doing for you.

    That's a tough row to hoe but I'm sure it can be done (but not through any managed high-level language like like we're using).

    Do you really want to get into taking care of memory management on your own?


    "A problem well stated is a problem half solved.” - Charles F. Kettering

    Sunday, June 18, 2017 12:14 AM
  • One needs to consider and balance all things for the exact purpose I guess.

    There are other platforms besides Windows?

    Not that I know it but it might take weeks using c, c++ etc what takes days with vb.

    Plus as Frank says you cant reinvent the wheel for all things offered by a simple call to the .net.

    Anyhow Windows is dragging along 20 years of this and that object orientated past in several versions. Hard to get around it now. Not that it cant be done I guess?


    Low level things are fastest in a low level lang like c or below. It would not be surprising if a well written routine to send and receive signals or whatever over some port or whatever was faster if written and compiled in c than .net 2. What lang was the original in and how compiled?

    Plus you have the whole can o worms of how the .net version was written and on and on...

    Sunday, June 18, 2017 12:27 AM
  • I guess this is the problem. A well designed compiler did this for you. Microsoft's development tools like Visual Basic at one time would let you compile to any CPU for any OS. Now everything is proprietary and refuses to play nicely with anyone. 

    IMHO this limits everyone's market share. 

    Thanks,


    MRM256

    Sunday, June 18, 2017 12:28 AM

  • I am sorry, but I am confused. When I first started programming the source code was sent to the compiler that took the source code(Fortran, Cobol, Pascal, C, or BASIC) and converted it into binary form. This in turn ran off the CPU from memory.


    No you remember it wrong. All those languages you name (with the exception from C) did create MSIL code and need a Runtime.

    What changed with .Net is that the used managed code program language don't need that anymore because it is integrated in .Net (an OS version independent OS part). The programs are therefore much smaller and runs faster because functions can be set in classes and therefore are more robust and have less overhead. 

    The only program languages for Microprocessors which don't need a runtime are C and Intel Assembler. But I wish you luck if you want to create a real business application with that. 

    An independent application likewise you describe does not need an OS, that is likewise the first computers did it. 


    Success
    Cor


    Sunday, June 18, 2017 7:45 AM
  • Does Microsoft have any IDEs that will allow a developer the ability to create independent applications that work on multiple operating systems?


    Yes Version 2017 is made to create programs which can run on all major OS systems (Android, IOS and Windows).

    Success
    Cor

    • Marked as answer by MRM256 Sunday, June 18, 2017 2:15 PM
    Sunday, June 18, 2017 7:56 AM

  • We studied parallel processing back in college when the Crays were the only multiprocessor systems. 

    You're way off on the history here. The first Cray computer debuted in
    1975. UNIVAC offered multiprocessor mainframes as early as 1965.

    - Wayne

    • Marked as answer by MRM256 Sunday, June 18, 2017 2:15 PM
    • Unmarked as answer by MRM256 Sunday, June 18, 2017 2:15 PM
    Sunday, June 18, 2017 9:53 AM
  • Hi Wayne,

    We are wondering away from the topic. I began my relationship with computers back in 1977 in a class called Data Processing on a NCR(National Cash Register) Century 200 computer that occupied an entire room, and had a whopping 32 kilobytes of core memory. You had a choice of two programming languages: COBOL(COmmon Business Oriented Language) and FORTRANI(FORmula TRANlation) one. For business applications you used COBOL. For scientific programming you used FORTRAN, and you wrote your program on punch cards. Which in itself is a fascinating technology. The system used a compiler to compile these languages into binary. Taking up to a half hour or more to complete.

    According to Google. The first multiprocessor was the Burroughs B5000, which was functional around 1961. At this time there where two major competitors for the computer market; UNIVAC and IBM. IBM offered dual-processor computer systems based on its System/360 model 65 in 1962. CRAYS used up to six CPUs as had to be immersed in liquid nitrogen. Each manufacturer had their own processor, software and peripheral configuration.

    I was just looking for a software suite where I could develop applications that can be used on any PC with any OS. Cor Ligthert provided the answer, Visual Studio version 2017.


    MRM256

    Sunday, June 18, 2017 2:14 PM