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Expression Web 3 Design View not displaying page correctly RRS feed

  • Question

  • I started with FrontPage and moved to Expression Web. As EP does not support SFTP, I am using EP3 on trial.

    Whilst my Index page displays OK in Design View in EW and the view scrolls down in a line.

    In EW3, the centre aligned paragraphs are away along to the right and are difficult to get to. The scroll l/r bar at the bottom of the screen does not allow scrolling to text.

    Only way I can get there is to run mouse cursor along a line. However try to do something and the text disappears away to te right again.

    Anyone any ideas what the difference is between EW & EW3 that is causing the different view experience in Design View for the same page and how it can be corrected.

    Monday, May 17, 2010 7:06 AM

Answers

  • It should be mentioned also that even though the thread Scott mentioned did show proof that a bug existed, the bug only showed when there was a flaw in the coding. Removing that flaw made the design view behave correctly.

    MS does need to continue working to improve design view, but more importantly, they need to emphasize in their advertising and documentation that design view is for reference only. Their marketing does still mention WYSIWYG way too freely, rather than explaining the correct use of design view.

    That said, people complaining of problems in design view really need to post a link for us to look at. Most things are solved by that, and do not turn out to be bugs. Additionally, if it is actually a bug, this would allow for replicating and documenting the problem. Without a link this is impossible, and there's really not much point speculating about a bug.

    Jim

    • Marked as answer by swansojb Thursday, June 13, 2013 6:38 AM
    Thursday, May 20, 2010 4:56 PM

All replies

  • Have you got the page on-line that we can look at?

     

    Ian
    MS MVP Expression

    http://www.ew-resource.co.uk
    http://www.fp-resource.co.uk


    Ian Haynes
    Monday, May 17, 2010 7:17 AM
  • There is a bug in design view that causes elements to jump around or almost off the page. This bug may effect systems differently depending on factors such as graphic cards from what I have read, but it is present on all three set-ups I have tried.

    If you are experiencing this bug it may manifest itself by causing the position of the paragraph or div to move (usually to the right) significantly out of position when working on some other page element. By selecting the errant div and hitting enter- or doing some other action- the element then returns.

    Make sure that the code is not the cause by using preview in browser. If it displays ok but still only acts strange in design view thats the tip off.

    If this describes the problem then no- your not going crazy- its likely the bug. A serch of "design view bug" on this forum will provide more information if your interested and a google search found at least one reviewer of this product who made mention of this same problem. This problem may not effect all systems so there are some users who may never see it. If it is the bug then your code will not show any cause.

    Time and again on this forum, and regardless of what you may have read in a review or specification, the point is hammered in that EW is not a WYSIWYG editior. As frustrating as it is you may be better off forgeting about design view for the most part as it relates to layout. This problem has really hurt my productivity since I am a visual and not code type user.  

    It is my hope that in future versions they get design view to work better- it would be so nice to have.

     

    Monday, May 17, 2010 12:01 PM
  • Publish the page and post a link so we can see it.  It may be something with a simple answer, or not, but until others can look at it ... who knows.

    Monday, May 17, 2010 2:18 PM
  • "As frustrating as it is you may be better off forgeting about design view for the most part as it relates to layout. This problem has really hurt my productivity since I am a visual and not code type user."

    It's far better to preview in a browser anyway. Design view just provides a rough approximation of how browsers may render the page. If you leave the browser running you can switch to it whenever you make major changes, and just refresh to see an accurate rendering. I realize it isn't ideal, but it also isn't that big of a problem. There's no reason that EW's less-than-accurate design view should hurt your productivity.

    Jim

    Monday, May 17, 2010 3:43 PM
  • Since the Design View is under discussion once again, I thought I'd add that this particular view includes the 'design' visual aids. These aids take up space in Design View, and so may account for the difference one sees between it and a browser preview. Additionally, the view port of Design View is scaled so that the other task panels will display properly.

    One can turn off visual aids by selecting 'Visual Aids' at the bottom of the Design View pane.

    As Jim says, previewing in a browser is the absolute best way to see if your page(s) render properly.

    Cheers,

    --P


    Columbia, CA. USA The Gilded Moon-Sierra Nevada Photography
    Monday, May 17, 2010 4:07 PM
  • I agree with previewing in a browser and always do so, but it would be nice if they could address the issue and provide a better and more representative view. This topic has come up a number of times and as a newbie it was one of the first problems I had. I have seen from reading posts here for about 6 months now that I am not the only one.

    While it is a minor annoyance to the informed, short of reading about it here, a newcommer may find it an issue if they think they have done something wrong. It just seems logical to want it fixed.

    I had a new Jimmy some years ago that was nealy imposible to put in 4 wheel drive. I went to the dealer and the service manager told me it was normal and to live with it. I struggled with it one winter and then decided I wanted another opinion. The other dealer said something was wrong and repaired it and it worked great. It turned out to be some 2 dollar bushings. Of course I could have just lived with it too.

    The moral of the story is that EW is not a WYSIWYG editor and this is just one of many reasons why. The OP and everyone else should preview in one or more browsers. All that being said its just my two cents but I would really like to see them work on this for the next release. 

    Monday, May 17, 2010 10:15 PM
  • Well, we can't tell anything without seeing the page and the problem.

    But I will tell you this--don't be led astray by thinking it may be the fault of a bug in EW. The problem is surely in your code, as surely as the sun will come up tomorrow. The bug that SurferBob won't let go of is so exceedingly rare that it may as well not exist. That doesn't stop him from harping about it even when he can see the page and the code and see that it isn't the cause of the problem. Don't let it distract you from looking for the real cause; that's why we're here.

    So, show us the pages and let us have a go at them. We'll find it.


    I dream of a better world...a world in which a chicken can cross the road without its motives being questioned.
    Tuesday, May 18, 2010 3:30 AM
  • Bill,

    As you often do, you failed to read my post carefully. I was specific in saying the bug "may" be related and to "preview in browser" to be sure.

    As far as the rare bug that you say it well may not exist- Then perhaps those references found by googling "expression web design view problem" are just a fantasy as well. Users, reveiwers, and even Cheryls web site mention it. It seems well estabilished by a broad range of credible sources that this bug and Css centering and presentation in design view is a problem experienced by others. It would seem that some " harping" or as more reasonable people may suggest, opinions exist on the topic. To say it does not exist is foolish. Please spare us another one of your temper tantrums on this forum in response. If you do not encounter the issue or do not think it is relevant that is your opinion but please do not be so arrogant towards others.

    I stand by my statement (call it harping if you like-I dont care) that this issue CAN, DOES, and HAS caused users concern and that a newcommer who does not understand what is going on can be frustrated by it- I certainly was. I still stand by the statement that I would like to see it fixed in the future- again call that harping if you like- I call it an opinion and it matters not that you can not accept my opinion as just that, Bill.

    Swansjb,

    If your code is the cause I will gladly point that out if I am skilled enough to spot it. As far as the bug goes, it may or may not be an issue for you and I only mentioned it because it has caused issues for some ( google it if you like). Dont let Bill sway you one way or another just determine once and for all the cause and let us know.   

     

    Tuesday, May 18, 2010 11:36 AM
  • Bob,

    While it "can and may" cause user concern when design view isn't the same as in a browser there is little that can or will be done about it since design view has to do things a browser doesn't and there are simply too many different browsers to use any single web browser display in design view. That would be even worse than an "inaccurate" design view because it would lead to a false sense of security. Personally I'd just as soon have it even less acurate than more accurate for that reason alone.

    However, I for one am not going to guess at what is going on. If the OP provides a link then I may load it in EW so I can see if it is something that EW can't display properly in design view but browsers or can or if design view is showing ow something will look in certain browsers and not necessarily others. When I've seen a pretty screwed up design view it is typically because of some css error, rarely is it because of something related solely to EW's design view.


    MS MVP Expression Tutorials & Help http://by-expression.com
    Tuesday, May 18, 2010 6:10 PM
  • Bob:

    Contrary to what you said "...you failed to read my post carefully. I was specific in saying the bug "may" be related..." I did read it. Carefully.

    The point I made, if you read mine post even cursorily is that the design bug is so slight a possibility that it's not worth mentioning--even with the wiggle word "may". It's like a doctor in Kansas telling a hiker that the rash on his legs "may" be dengue fever. A reasonable doctor would never mention that and would first explore the obvious cause of his rash--poison ivy.

    Your mention of the design bug is just as remote a possibility as dengue fever in Kansas. In all the times you've brought it up, it has never proven to be the case. You have even brought it up when you could have viewed the code and seen that it wasn't the case. You bring it up for the sake of bringing it up, not to help people. And the fact that writers have commented about it on the web means nothing. It exists; we all know it exists. But the rest of us acknowledge its exceeding rarity and don't throw it up at the drop of a hat as the first line of exploration--because it's a red herring. The OP's problem isn't the display bug; it's a problem in his code; it always is. He has poison ivy; he doesn't have the epizootic or dengue fever or a pebble in his shoe.


    I dream of a better world...a world in which a chicken can cross the road without its motives being questioned.
    Wednesday, May 19, 2010 2:43 AM
  • Bill,

    Sorry but you are wrong to so quickly dismiss that issue. Furthermore, you are wrong to always paint my posts in the light that you do. Many of the issues mentioned on this forum are exceedingly rare or limited to a few users. Are we now narrowing the focus of discussion here based on the sum of users affected or worse, by the arbitrary decisions of another forum user such as yourself.

    If you discount magazine reviewers expert in the topic, multiple users, and others clearly skilled equal or more than yourself, then why would you care about my opinion. As far as viewing the code goes, they have yet to post it in any single case where I have mentioned this bug on this forum- NOT ONE CASE! So what would you know about my viewing the code.

    Your Dengue fever analogy is good for a great laugh however even if it has no bearing on anything whatsoever. I do enjoy your wit and respect your opinions even if I can not always agree with them.

    First you attacked my posts on Frontpage and the problems of users converting from it to EW. Since then you have attacked many posts I have made regarding that and other topics. You may be of a higher level of skill than I am on this or some of the other topics for the time being, but you are far from being the end all do all of EW. Further, your sometimes insulting and derrogatory comments to myself and several other newcommers is telling and I am sure noted by many others.

    Bill, I will be reading your posts and comments waiting for you to address an issue as rare as the display bug and then remind you of your dengue fever or pebble in your shoe. In the mean time we will have to agree to disagree. We are entitled to our opinions- equally.

    Wednesday, May 19, 2010 12:02 PM
  • "...they have yet to post it in any single case where I have mentioned this bug on this forum- NOT ONE CASE! So what would you know about my viewing the code."

    Sorry, Bob, just not true--look at the dates and times of the posts in that thread. The OP posted the link to hi problem in the original post, and View Source clearly showed that it wasn't the issue.

    http://social.expression.microsoft.com/Forums/en-US/web/thread/7aa909eb-2ac2-44c8-8487-e33d156040a5/

     

     


    I dream of a better world...a world in which a chicken can cross the road without its motives being questioned.
    Wednesday, May 19, 2010 11:27 PM
  • I have just started with Expression Web 3 and am having a similiar problem.  When I select a layer and attempt to adjust the size by dragging the handles, it will sometimes jump to the far right of the page for no apparent reason.  I have to hit undo to get it back to the correct position.

    I find that if I manually adjust the size using the CSS properties box instead, it works fine.  Dosn't happen everytime, but extremely annoying when it does.  I have been unable to pin down what exact circumstance causes it except that it does not seem to happen if the layer has no contents. I'll see if I can get it posted in the next day or two so folks can have a look.

    Thursday, May 20, 2010 1:59 AM
  • Don't drag in design view. When you do so you will convert the div to one that is absolutely positioned - commonly known as a "layer". You don't want to do this because it will break when people's settings are different from yours.

    Unless you really and I mean really understand CSS you should not use absolutely positioned content. You may want to spend some time with the resources in the BEFORE POSTING sticky at the top of this forum. There are a lot of resources there for beginners that will help you avoid these sorts of issues.


    MS MVP Expression Tutorials & Help http://by-expression.com
    Thursday, May 20, 2010 2:48 AM
  • Bill,

    Yes I saw the code in the thread you mention and the comments about the problems with it but other than Time Bandits reference to the same problem with the design view display I could not find any specific code that invoked the behavior in the display. Sure there are things wrong with that code but I can not find the specific cause of the viewer issue so would you be so kind as to tell me what code you are specifically making reference to as it would pertain to causing divs to move almost off screen in the display.

    DCP121,

     Paul from MS mentioned the re-sizing of the box as a partial solution but notes it still may happen. Strangely, following Cheryls hunch about absolute positioning I tried to replicate the same conditions but I was not able to do so and the display did not fault. While Cheryl is right about the formatting,since I could not replicate the design view glitch this way it makes me think the bug behaves differently on different systems. In my case you can be adding content in one div and then a non selected unrelated div may jump for no clear cut reason. Yes EXTREMELY ANNOYING indeed.   

    Perhaps Bill can look for a pebble in our shoes or send us to the doctor to check for dengue fever- or maybe we are in the twilight zone since according to him it is so rare :)

    Cheryl,

    Your point is well taken and the OP should not use absolute positioned layers except in some rare cases but even so why would or should that cause a malfunction in the design view? I mean there are times when people would use an absolute positioned layer on purpose and even drag them and this seems like a legitimate use of the tools when that is the case. This seems to confirm the bug exists and may behave in differing ways depending on the system and since the OP was confused by it it confirms what I have said all along about the problems it causes newcommers. MS should fix this and spare them the frustration and there is no help in the sticky (yet) about the bug so even a user intending to drag to size and convert to absolute position would possible fall victim to it- If I understand you correctly.

    All this said about the only thing learned for certain is the need to preview in browser and not put a lot of faith in design view at present.

    Thursday, May 20, 2010 3:42 AM
  • "When I select a layer and attempt to adjust the size by dragging the handles, "

    Gack .. Stop!  Do not use layers.  They will break your page in a heartbeat when someone resizes text in their browser.

    There are very few reasons to ever need absolute position or to have both height and width assigned to a container (e.g. a div), and the few situations where it is helpful are advanced situations, not likely to be found in your site.

    That it is so easy to create them in Design View is a pitfall that many newbies fall into.

    Definitely watch Cheryl's tutorial (the Basic Web Site tutorial in the Resources section of the Before Posting post), then back up, and start over.

    Thursday, May 20, 2010 3:45 AM
  • Bob, as far as I can determine from extensive searching of the forum on the issue of the bug, and it is a bug, there was only one case where anyone was able to produce a replicable example. That was in this thread http://social.expression.microsoft.com/Forums/en-US/web/thread/e5ba679f-d6bc-4337-98f1-e75d0dcdbad0 . It had nothing whatsoever to do with mouse actions such as those described by this OP, and manifested only under certain very restricted conditions.

    I'm afraid that I have agree that you do seem to roll out this bug, which is limited in effect and very, very rare, as a possible cause for pretty much any design view issue that arises, whether or not there is any evidence whatsoever that it is applicable, and often in the face of evidence to the contrary. It does grow rather tiresome after a while. Just sayin'...

    cheers,
    scott


    C'mon, folks. This isn't rocket science, nor neurosurgery. It's "Expression" (singular) "Web" (singular), in that order, followed by a version numeral if you wish to be specific. It is often abbreviated "EW." It is not "Web Expression," "Expressions Web," "Web Expressions," or plain "Expression" or "Expressions." Not using the correct name indicates either ignorance or laziness. Most folks would rather avoid the appearance of either.
    Thursday, May 20, 2010 4:13 AM
  • Scott,

    Tiresome or not the purpose of the forum is in part to try and help people understand the product and work around any problems they may experience. I gave my opinion-its just that simple and its just an opinion. You have rendered plenty of opinions in the past that I thought were too tough or even inconsiderate of newcommers or even perhaps tiresome but I accept its your right and your opinion.

    Thanks for at least accepting the bug exists. I disagree that its manifestation is as rare as you or Bill might suppose however, and its impact, as demonstrated by DCP121 above, can be a cause of concern to those who do not understand what is going on. I and others I know and others on this forum and other forums have experienced the problem and commented on it. That you or Bill do not does not disqualify it, it simply means your system behaves different.

    It seems to me that in some cases there is a fundamental disconnect between some of the experienced users and those new to EW in that sometimes those with questions deemed too simple or who do not understand some concept that someone feels is too fundamental often gets flammed and ganged up on and Scott you have taken your turn in the verbal tag team many many times, so much so that it may be "tiresome"  to those you try to degrade.

    No amount of bloviant verbage or crafty approaches to sneak around in a attempt to insult or degrade others deemed too inexperienced or those who may disagree can hide the contempt shown on occasion and in my opinion that degrades the the whole purpose of the forum.

    Teach if called upon- be taught if fortunate- and respect everyone no matter the level of skill.

    Thursday, May 20, 2010 11:44 AM
  • Bob,

     Since the OP hasn't given anyone enough information to determine what is causing the problem and the symptoms described match a far more common issue telling someone it is a program "bug" isn't particularly helpful either. The subsequent poster has described a different issue, again with no link to the page that displays the problem.

    Until each of the two folks posting about completely different issues provides links to their code it isn't possible to do much besides WAGs (wild ____ guesses) and I rather think calling both behaviors diferent manifestations of the same "bug" is not helpful at all.


    MS MVP Expression Tutorials & Help http://by-expression.com
    Thursday, May 20, 2010 1:59 PM
  • It should be mentioned also that even though the thread Scott mentioned did show proof that a bug existed, the bug only showed when there was a flaw in the coding. Removing that flaw made the design view behave correctly.

    MS does need to continue working to improve design view, but more importantly, they need to emphasize in their advertising and documentation that design view is for reference only. Their marketing does still mention WYSIWYG way too freely, rather than explaining the correct use of design view.

    That said, people complaining of problems in design view really need to post a link for us to look at. Most things are solved by that, and do not turn out to be bugs. Additionally, if it is actually a bug, this would allow for replicating and documenting the problem. Without a link this is impossible, and there's really not much point speculating about a bug.

    Jim

    • Marked as answer by swansojb Thursday, June 13, 2013 6:38 AM
    Thursday, May 20, 2010 4:56 PM