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Any Windows 10 IoT support on Intel Core platforms? RRS feed

  • Question

  • On the IoT website on msdn, there are downloadable IoT build images for RPI2 and MBM boards only.  My questions are:

    1. Is windows 10 IoT supported on Intel Core platforms?

    2. Is there a generic IoT build that can be installed on a custom board (with Intel Core or Atom processor) other than MinnowBoard Max?  If yes, where to download?

    3. The IoT build images can only be flashed to SD card.  Can they be flashed to other storage media, like SSD or a usb stick?

    Thanks a lot in advance.

    Tuesday, October 20, 2015 12:06 AM

Answers

  • Hi Henry,

    Just to clarify, it is not just the processor that is required to bring up a board. We have a term called a "BSP" or Board Support Package which includes not just the processor but the drivers for other board features as well.  For example the MinnowBoardMax has an Atom Processor but it is on an SOC that includes other features beyond the processor itself.

    As a simple example, your PC would not be fully functional without a working video driver so that you could use the screen or a USB driver to support a keyboard or mouse for input. With this in mind, as more boards are completed, they will be announced through "WindowsOnDevices.Com" and "WindowsInsider".

    Sincerely,

    IoTGirl

    Tuesday, October 20, 2015 5:27 PM
    Moderator
  • Hi Dean,

    Microsoft has not released a story for custom BSPs but I would recommend OEMs reach out directly to their Silicon Vendors regarding their interest in Windows 10 IoT Client.  However, Hardware Vendors should be able to start with an existing platform, like the MBM (x86) and Pi (ARM) and create custom universal drivers for their components.

    Sincerely,

    IoTGirl

    Tuesday, October 27, 2015 4:18 PM
    Moderator

All replies

  • Hi Henry,

    Just to clarify, it is not just the processor that is required to bring up a board. We have a term called a "BSP" or Board Support Package which includes not just the processor but the drivers for other board features as well.  For example the MinnowBoardMax has an Atom Processor but it is on an SOC that includes other features beyond the processor itself.

    As a simple example, your PC would not be fully functional without a working video driver so that you could use the screen or a USB driver to support a keyboard or mouse for input. With this in mind, as more boards are completed, they will be announced through "WindowsOnDevices.Com" and "WindowsInsider".

    Sincerely,

    IoTGirl

    Tuesday, October 20, 2015 5:27 PM
    Moderator
  • Following up on that question - is Windows 10 IoT Core restricted to just the actual boards that Microsoft has ported BSPs for?  Is it possible for me to build my own platform based on an already supported platform (e.g. clone and modify the RP2 design) and get IoT Core running on it?  If so, what level of customization would I be able to do?

    For context, I'm coming from the Windows CE world, where we had full access to the BSP source code.  We could do our own hardware designs as long as we used a supported processor architecture and were willing to do the BSP work necessary for our hardware design.

    What level of BSP work are we as OEMs able to do ourselves with Windows 10 IoT Core?

    Thanks,



    Tuesday, October 27, 2015 1:12 PM
  • Hi Dean,

    Microsoft has not released a story for custom BSPs but I would recommend OEMs reach out directly to their Silicon Vendors regarding their interest in Windows 10 IoT Client.  However, Hardware Vendors should be able to start with an existing platform, like the MBM (x86) and Pi (ARM) and create custom universal drivers for their components.

    Sincerely,

    IoTGirl

    Tuesday, October 27, 2015 4:18 PM
    Moderator
  • Wednesday, January 27, 2016 5:47 PM
    Moderator
  • Just a thought: Since "normal" Windows runs on this, why not just install that and enable Embedded Mode ?

    http://ms-iot.github.io/content/en-US/win10/EmbeddedMode.htm

    Wednesday, January 27, 2016 11:58 PM
  • In the past I used "Target Analyzer" (TAP) utility to create .pmq file and then imported it into Windows Embedded Standard 8 image using Image Configuration Editor (ICE).

    Is there similar process for Windows 10 IoT?

    Are Intel-based SBCs actually supported by Windows 10 IoT? This blog:

    https://blogs.msdn.microsoft.com/iot/2015/12/14/windows-10-iot-core-image-creation/

    mentions "Intel Minnowboard Max" that seems to be an SBC; can you confirm, please?

    Thank you,

    Eugene

    Wednesday, October 5, 2016 2:46 PM
  • Hi Eugene,

    That blog is quite old.  Please take a look at https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/hardware/dn916104(v=vs.85).aspx.

    Sincerely,

    IoTGirl

    Wednesday, October 5, 2016 9:05 PM
    Moderator
  • There is Windows 10 IoT Enterprise (aka Windows 10 Enterprise LTSB 2016) and there is Windows 10 IoT Core. If you have been using WES8, Windows 10 IoT Enterprise is the next step. Here is an article that might help:

    http://annabooks.com/Articles/Articles_IoT10/Windows-10-IoT%20Rev1.3.pdf


    Sean Liming - Book Author: Starter Guide SIM - www.annabooks.com / www.seanliming.com

    Wednesday, October 5, 2016 10:09 PM
  • Thanks Sean!
    Wednesday, October 5, 2016 10:20 PM
    Moderator
  • We have had a number of clients interested in running IoT Core on different Intel platforms. We did some investigation and have released a paper on Annabooks.com:  http://annabooks.com/Articles/Articles_IoT10Core/Windows-10-IoT-Core-on-Intel-Architecture%20Rev1.6.pdf . Even though IoT Core ran, i-Series is not officially supported, but the results looks promising.

    Regards,

    J.R. Malin

    Friday, October 14, 2016 11:13 PM
  • Both Joule and Minnowmax are just Intel Atom platforms.  Is there an way to install Windows IOT on any Intel platform/motherboard?  We have another Intel Atom tablet motherboard that we use and would like to run Windows IOT on this instead of Windows 10 Home.  Prior to Windows 10 IOT there was Windows CE and Windows Embedded.  If Windows 10 IOT is not supported on any other platform where can I find information on these other Windows licenses?

    Is Windows 10 IOT Pro (which is now free) what we want?

    Thursday, October 20, 2016 6:58 PM
  • Hi IoTEnthus,

    The version you choose for your tablet really depends on the purpose of your device.  Please review the different version details at https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/WindowsForBusiness/windows-iot to decide on the correct version for your solution.

    You should be able to contact any distributer regarding the Windows 10 IoT Enterprise and Windows 10 IoT Mobile editions. 

    Windows 10 IoT Core Pro edition is not likely a good target for a tablet as it does not offer a shell.

    Sincerely,

    IoTCore

    Thursday, October 20, 2016 7:23 PM
    Moderator
  • I know this is an old thread, but...

    its good to see there is now a "certified for Windows IoT" catalogue, https://catalog.azureiotsuite.com/ and I see that devices like the Pi and Duino are listed. These are great for learning, but if I pitch to a customer a design using a Pi, they will laugh. At the same time, If I go for one of the proprietary embedded designs, like Advantech or Nexcom, they want to know if I'm a fit and proper candidate to be allowed to resell their kit, and in some cases, who I'm selling to, obviously they are also systems integrators who want my business. We're a small outfit, and we don't have the resources to have a dedicated image build team, so we need to be able to deploy an IoT image to, say, a mini-itx board with a Via chipset or an Intel D501M etc. Any of these will accept a full-blown install of Win10, so the drivers etc are already available. How hard could it be to have a generic IoT image we install, and as part of commissioning, allow it to fetch the drivers off the internet? No BSP required, hence much wider availability. We'd like to stay with the .Net platform as we have in-house experience (since .Net 1) if we go Linux we'll have to recruit, and frankly if we go down that route, forget Azure - might as well go AWS or Google - more community support.

    Thursday, January 12, 2017 1:13 PM
  • @LegacyOfHerot

    it seems like the MBM or Toradex boards are a good option for you to use Windows IoT Core and if you plan to sell your own devices

    some helpful links for you

    Windows 10 IoT Core Commercialization

    IoT Core manufacturing

    Installing and Servicing apps on Windows 10 IoT Core

    br
    Andre

    Thursday, January 12, 2017 2:39 PM
    Moderator
  • Hi LegacyOfHerot,

    Further to Cyberh0me's excellent answer, there is no such option of "No BSP required" as first boot will always need to know the memory layout and basic board level drivers required.  This is true for all versions of Windows as the desktop and mobile builds also have BSPs.  You are referring to third party, updated or accessory drivers that are not needed on first boot and those certainly can always be added later on all three; IoT Enterprise, IoT Mobile or IoT Core.

    FYI: Even OS builds for Virtual Machines have BSPs as they need to know the same information with regards to the virtual device where they are to be hosted

    Sincerely,

    IoTGirl

    Thursday, January 12, 2017 5:09 PM
    Moderator
  • Thank you both, some good info there. I had assumed that if the board supported UEFI, all the information required at boot time would be there in the ROM, evidently a poor assumption.

    I'll certainly check out the links provided by Cyberh0me and investigate the boards mentioned.

    I have to say, the docs for IoT seem scattered about over the Microsoft domain, with a degree of link rot and outdated information. It would be good to do a thorough re-index and rationalisation, and since you seem to be putting the IoT docs on GitHub, could I suggest adding the publish date at the top of the page, like on MSDN? I've been researching IoT core for over a year, since the first build for Pi, never came across the info for building a BSP.

    Thanks again.

    Thursday, January 12, 2017 6:05 PM
  • hello

    you have 2 main start addresses for Windows IoT Core

    1) http://windowsondevices.com (get started with Windows IoT Core)

    2) http://windowsforiotdevices.com (Windows IoT Core Commercialization)

    i am not aware of any documentation on GitHub as also the sample documentation (IoT) moved to Samples as part of 1 (except UWP samples)

    br
    Andre


    Thursday, January 12, 2017 6:14 PM
    Moderator
  • Hi Andre,

    FYI: WindowsOnDevices pages and samples are available on Github at ms-IoT.  General Windows 10 Build information, including IoT Core is available on MSDN. 

    It is my understanding that Intel BSP information is available directly from Intel for both MBM & Joule.

    Sincerely,

    IoTGirl


    Thursday, January 12, 2017 7:24 PM
    Moderator
  • There is also

    https://azure.microsoft.com/en-us/develop/iot/starter-kits/

    https://azure.microsoft.com/en-us/marketplace/iot-partners/

    https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/azure/iot-suite/iot-suite-security-deployment

    https://catalog.azureiotsuite.com/?q=mbm

    https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/hardware/dn916104%28v=vs.85%29.aspx

    https://developer.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/iot

    https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/WindowsForBusiness/windows-iot

    https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/hardware/dn914597%28v=vs.85%29.aspx?f=255&MSPPError=-2147217396

    I had bookmarked some others, cant find them right now. I've left crefs in comments in our code in case we need to go back to the original doc at some point.

    MSDN is a huge CMS, and there are many hundreds of urls pointing into it, so it will be a big job to catalog, I know.

    HTH

    Brian

    Friday, January 13, 2017 3:50 PM
  • Hi Brian,

    You are also crossing the great divide from device to cloud.  Azure IoT is the cloud side and maintained by a different team and organization while Windows IoT is a small part of the Windows Org.  When you go to WindowsEmbedded.Microsoft.com you will find two sub-branches; Azure IoT & Windows IoT. Following each of those should help you differentiate.

    Sincerely,

    IoTGirl


    Friday, January 13, 2017 6:23 PM
    Moderator
  • Thanks, having come from a hardware background (I was designing PCs back in the 90's)  and now living in the cloud, I can see both sides of the divide.

    As an outsider it seems to me that Microsoft still see these "ToTis" - Things on the Internet - as an enthusiast toy, a bit like Windows 95's view on the internet - you could sell as many PCs to corporates as you liked, this new fangled Internet thing wont catch on. Then there was a light bulb moment in Redmond, and the company turned on a sixpence (dime).

    Right now, Amazon, Intel, Google are deploying ToTis running Linux and Android like its end of sale at Maceys. As I said earlier, we'd like to stay on the Microsoft stack, as we have in-house experience (and we're now on Bizspark) but if we have to sweat blood to slap a supported OS on a board, we may have to think again.

    Regards

    Brian

    Tuesday, January 17, 2017 10:17 AM
  • Hi Brian,

    I started working with Windows Embedded outside Microsoft in 1997. Now, I work as as an insider. :)  In my personal experience I can confirm that, for over 20 years, Microsoft Partners have been Embedding Windows into "things" you use everyday that you might never guess. Windows is actually running that gas pump that asks me if I would like chips, the price check scanner at my local store, the network printer at the office and my home Fios set top box along with many more items that are internet connected and have been for many years. For me, IoT and ToTis are just the latest name for something I have been doing for years but now I have far better infrastructure to do so.

    The Windows IoT Team gets direct feedback from Partners, OEMs and folks like yourself that utilize the feedback tool. Now that Windows in unifying on one core, every type of device can benefit from work being done across the different platform options; Desktop, Mobile and Core.

    From the Azure side I highly recommend using https://feedback.azure.com/forums/34192--general-feedback to give your ideas directly to the folks that are building that supportive cloud and analytics infrastructure.  I can confirm that those issue are directly reviewed by members of the Azure planning team.

    Sincerely,

    IoTGirl

    Tuesday, January 17, 2017 6:42 PM
    Moderator
  • Thanks "IoTGirl",

    I'm aware of windows embedded, last I heard a BMW has around 7 Windows licenses in each car, and we're all aware of ATMs still running XP...:-)

    Going back to the original point of this thread, we're hoping to use the Microsoft IoT stack because Microsoft have a lot of experience in managing large corporate networks, with thousands of PCs. My research suggests that Azure IoT is a pretty well-rounded solution, with certificates for device authentication and transport security, and obviously Azure for the data store, be it a SQL database or Azure Tables, and of course with UWP we can develop the main part of our apps on a desktop PC, and then debug on the target device when its in a reasonable state.

    We want to be able to deploy small form factor devices, talking to even smaller 1-wire sensors, and see the results in Azure. Getting a Windows OS onto the device is the issue - and I see that the whole IoT sub site has had a new year refresh, and there are a lot more supported devices than the original Pi, MBM and Dragonboard 410, so that's good news.

    I'll head over to the forum you suggest.

    Regards

    Brian

    Wednesday, January 18, 2017 11:04 AM
  • Hi Brian,

    You are very welcome! If you are already a Microsoft shop, are you a Microsoft Partner? Based on what you have told me so far, I think you can reach out to three different disciplines at Microsoft:

    1. Marketing
    2. Partner/OEM
    3. Developer Evangelism

    Depending on what kind of information you are looking for, these three paths are your best bets.

    Sincerely,

    IoTGirl

    Wednesday, January 18, 2017 6:14 PM
    Moderator
  • Hi again IoTGirl

    In my previous life I was the development manager at a Silver Partner. I renewed our Silver certification three times, via the Platform Ready process. We had a web based product which we pushed into Azure, and we had three customers live, another on the way when they sold the company from under my feet. So now we're a startup, just me and an old buddy (he's a hardware guy - proper hardware - as in lathes, machine tools, and 600V 3 phase inverters), and a couple of other loose associates.

    I know a few of the evangelists at Thames Valley Park  in Reading, UK, we're aiming to become a Partner / OEM, along with systems integration.

    I've just managed to get my Bizspark Visual Studio subscription working, so I can download stuff, but the $150 /month Azure credit is now only applicable to dev / test environments. Not what it said when I first applied in November 2016...

    Brian

    Monday, January 23, 2017 7:17 PM
  • Hi Brian,

    In a previous life I worked for a startup that added SmartCard payment to Unattended Point of Sale and that's where I got my real start in devices.  The IP was bought by Marconi/British Telecom and I went looking for a new job but I will never forget that experience of being so close to the tech as I am still hooked!

    As to the rules of BizSpark, it sounds like you could give them the feedback that $150 of Azure time would be helpful to spark your business if it didn't have that limit?  

    Best of luck with your new business!  You sound like you are very much on the "Maker" track!  As you are a new company, have you looked at https://www.microsoftaccelerator.com ?  I believe they do have a location in the UK. https://www.microsoftaccelerator.com/locations

    Sincerely,

    IoTGirl


    Monday, January 23, 2017 8:17 PM
    Moderator
  • With all this talk of past lives, I think we're getting off track for the thread :-)

    I assume you can see my email address, feel free to ping me and we can Linkin.

    Regards

    Brian

    Tuesday, January 24, 2017 6:17 PM
  • Hi Brian,

    I do not have access to your email address. I highly recommend you reach out through your OEM contacts at Microsoft or through the chip vendor to get details on using IoT Core on the chipset of your choice.  If you are looking at Intel, they have quite a bit of information on their site.

    Sincerely,

    IoTGirl

    Tuesday, January 24, 2017 6:22 PM
    Moderator
  • Hi,

    so far, Microsoft website shows that some intel platform is able to install Win10 IoT Core.

    Does it just support Intel and few x86 platforms? If I want to install Win10 IoT Core on other x86 platforms, is that possible?(ex: ASUS or VIA x86 platforms)

    Thanks.

    Friday, April 27, 2018 6:53 AM
  • @Amber Kuo

    I have merged your question with an existing Thread as it handles the same Topic

    please read above postings

    br
    Andre

    Friday, April 27, 2018 9:07 AM
    Moderator
  • There are minimal hardware requirements for CPU support: https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-hardware/design/minimum/minimum-hardware-requirements-overview

    You can install IoT Core on support x86 platforms so long as UEFI is supported as well, but driver support is the issue: http://annabooks.com/Articles/Articles_IoT10Core/Windows-10-IoT-Core-on-Intel-Architecture%20Rev1.6.pdf   

    http://annabooks.com/Articles/Articles_IoT10Core/Windows-10-IoT-Core-on-Intel-Architecture%20Rev2.2.pdf


    Sean Liming - Book Author: Starter Guide Windows 10 IoT Enterprise - www.annabooks.com / www.seanliming.com

    Friday, April 27, 2018 4:13 PM
  • Do you think the device drivers for Windows 10 that come with
    a standard ITX or ATX motherboard would be sufficient to run
    Iot extensions and RTX64-RTSS on Windows 10 Iot core ?

    Randy Seedle

    Monday, April 30, 2018 7:23 AM
  • @Randy Seedle

    i have merged your question with an existing Thread as it handles the same Topic

    please read above postings

    br
    Andre

    Monday, April 30, 2018 12:41 PM
    Moderator