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Request a few clarifications with regard to link element having following attributes: <link rel="bookmark" href="[Permalink URL]" /> RRS feed

  • Question

  • http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Permalink tells us "Permalinks can be indicated within the HTML of a page so as to allow automated browsing tools to detect the permalink and use it for linking instead of the stated URL. The link element should include the following attributes: <link rel="bookmark" href="[Permalink URL]" />"

    Questions:

    1. The link <link rel="bookmark" href="[Permalink URL]" /> should read like <link rel="bookmark" href="http://yashodharman.in/index.html" />
      1. in other words, replace [Permalink URL] by complete page URL, separately on each page?
    2. The link should be placed
      1. within <head> tag?
      2. within non-editable area?

    Thanks, M. R.
    • Edited by MR_2009 Sunday, January 23, 2011 4:50 PM a correction
    Sunday, January 23, 2011 3:58 PM

Answers

  • A permalink goes in the content portion of the page just like any other link, either editable or non editable.
    That said, I think you're misinterpreting what the wikipedia page is saying.

    Permalinks are used to link to archived or database driven pages, such as blog articles
    that are removed from a blog page and are archived.


    Expression Web MVP
    • Edited by Steve Easton Sunday, January 23, 2011 8:23 PM
    • Marked as answer by MR_2009 Monday, January 24, 2011 12:28 PM
    Sunday, January 23, 2011 4:24 PM
  • A permalink won't help when you move files between directories, and is not even needed in order for you to maintain link integrity.
    EW does that automatically for you when you move pages and or files between directories
    If / when you move a file that contains links, or a file that is linked to, EW will ask you if you want the links upated.
    One way to ensure this is to make sure you have set EW to manage the site using hidden metadata on the Site Settings dialog.
    Expression Web MVP
    • Marked as answer by MR_2009 Monday, January 24, 2011 12:28 PM
    Sunday, January 23, 2011 6:13 PM
  • Steve, regarding permalinks, see what was quoted below, he was talking about moving a page that someone has an old link to.

    M.R.: what you are looking for is 301 redirects, not permalinks.

    "A visitor today refers one of my page links to one of his friends as, say, http://domain/folder-1/file.html but his friend does not look at it then. Instead he looks at that file a month later. Meanwhile the file may have moved from folder-1 to folder-9 and the link has changed to http://domain/folder-9/file.html which he does not know. So, he gets a disappointing 404 message. "

    As for restructuring the site, EW will keep track if you have enabled metadata on your local copy of the site, are making these changes *within EW after opening the site", and nothing is corrupt.

    • Edited by KathyW2 Sunday, January 23, 2011 8:29 PM
    • Marked as answer by MR_2009 Monday, January 24, 2011 12:11 PM
    Sunday, January 23, 2011 6:49 PM
  • I still say that his comment about visitors coming to old links is not part of the metadata issue.

    He was asking how to avoid a 404 not found, and that has nothing to do with having valid links within the site.  It's a separate issue.

    Again, repeating what I quoted: A visitor today refers one of my page links to one of his friends as, say, http://domain/folder-1/file.html but his friend does not look at it then. Instead he looks at that file a month later.  Meanwhile the file may have moved from folder-1 to folder-9 and the link has changed to http://domain/folder-9/file.html which he does not know."

    • Marked as answer by MR_2009 Monday, January 24, 2011 12:11 PM
    Sunday, January 23, 2011 9:31 PM

All replies

  • A permalink goes in the content portion of the page just like any other link, either editable or non editable.
    That said, I think you're misinterpreting what the wikipedia page is saying.

    Permalinks are used to link to archived or database driven pages, such as blog articles
    that are removed from a blog page and are archived.


    Expression Web MVP
    • Edited by Steve Easton Sunday, January 23, 2011 8:23 PM
    • Marked as answer by MR_2009 Monday, January 24, 2011 12:28 PM
    Sunday, January 23, 2011 4:24 PM
  • Thanks, Steve.

    I was actually trying to extend that concept to my current web pages built using dynamic web templates. Let me explain why I thought of that, and then ask can I not use permanent links for my current web pages?

    I tend to restructure my site from time to time. As a result my pages move from original location. An example could be a file that has moved from one directory to another. Now let us look at the result in this manner.

    A visitor today refers one of my page links to one of his friends as, say, http://domain/folder-1/file.html but his friend does not look at it then. Instead he looks at that file a month later. Meanwhile the file may have moved from folder-1 to folder-9 and the link has changed to http://domain/folder-9/file.html which he does not know. So, he gets a disappointing 404 message. 

    For quite some time I had been thinking how to deal with that. I moved all my files to the root public_html. That solved my problem but created another. EW4 had now over thousand files in folder view. I was uncomfortable with the huge list. Besides, I had to spend time in adding some prefix to each file so that there is some order among those 1000+ files. The site had over 50,000 internal hyperlinks. In the process of moving them from folders I must have flouted some norm, quite inadvertently, resulting in 2000+ broken links. Earlier if I had a broken link, it was possible to relate it to a specific folder and fix it immediately. Now that folder structure was gone fixing those 2000+ broken links became a nightmare. I had created a blank new site and imported everything from the production site and therefore, no real harm was done, except I lost time and leaned a lesson.

    I thought of some other ways, tested them, and then gave up because each had some or other problem associated with it.

    Today, when I was going through my old notes I stumbled upon this one from wikipedia which raised questions in my mind.

    Now, I am back to my basic question, is there a way to deal with the situation I have in mind, and if permalinks cannot be used for current web pages.


    Thanks, M. R.
    Sunday, January 23, 2011 5:21 PM
  • A permalink won't help when you move files between directories, and is not even needed in order for you to maintain link integrity.
    EW does that automatically for you when you move pages and or files between directories
    If / when you move a file that contains links, or a file that is linked to, EW will ask you if you want the links upated.
    One way to ensure this is to make sure you have set EW to manage the site using hidden metadata on the Site Settings dialog.
    Expression Web MVP
    • Marked as answer by MR_2009 Monday, January 24, 2011 12:28 PM
    Sunday, January 23, 2011 6:13 PM
  • Steve, regarding permalinks, see what was quoted below, he was talking about moving a page that someone has an old link to.

    M.R.: what you are looking for is 301 redirects, not permalinks.

    "A visitor today refers one of my page links to one of his friends as, say, http://domain/folder-1/file.html but his friend does not look at it then. Instead he looks at that file a month later. Meanwhile the file may have moved from folder-1 to folder-9 and the link has changed to http://domain/folder-9/file.html which he does not know. So, he gets a disappointing 404 message. "

    As for restructuring the site, EW will keep track if you have enabled metadata on your local copy of the site, are making these changes *within EW after opening the site", and nothing is corrupt.

    • Edited by KathyW2 Sunday, January 23, 2011 8:29 PM
    • Marked as answer by MR_2009 Monday, January 24, 2011 12:11 PM
    Sunday, January 23, 2011 6:49 PM
  • "One way to ensure this is to make sure you have set EW to manage the site using hidden metadata on the Site Settings dialog."

    ... and always make file moves, copies, renames, etc. inside EW, in the Folder List panel or by using Save As...

    Things that you change outside of EW, in Windows Explorer for example, EW has absolutely no knowledge of, and therefore cannot adjust your links when you move things around.

    cheers,
    scott


    Please remember to "Mark as Answer" the responses that resolved your issue. It is common courtesy to recognize those who have helped you, and it also makes it easier for visitors to find the resolution later.
    Sunday, January 23, 2011 6:50 PM
  • Steve, he was talking about moving a page that someone has an old link to.

    That's not how I understood it, as he mentioned broken hyperlinks within the site from moving files.
    Expression Web MVP
    Sunday, January 23, 2011 8:26 PM
  • Kathy, it appears that since the outset the OP has actually talked about both broken external and internal links. It's pretty clear from this section that he's talking about internal links:

    The site had over 50,000 internal hyperlinks. In the process of moving them from folders I must have flouted some norm, quite inadvertently, resulting in 2000+ broken links. Earlier if I had a broken link, it was possible to relate it to a specific folder and fix it immediately. Now that folder structure was gone fixing those 2000+ broken links became a nightmare.

    In any event, he seems to be pretty clueless about site organization or management (no offense meant, just an observation from what has been posted), or about EW's capabilities vis-á-vis metadata management of the site, and the SEO consequences of moving files around like that (to which your recommendation of 301 redirects goes). So, any advice regarding preserving either kind of link, given that he seems to be determined upon this musical files course, will probably be appropriate.

    cheers,
    scott

     


    Please remember to "Mark as Answer" the responses that resolved your issue. It is common courtesy to recognize those who have helped you, and it also makes it easier for visitors to find the resolution later.
    Sunday, January 23, 2011 8:41 PM
  • I still say that his comment about visitors coming to old links is not part of the metadata issue.

    He was asking how to avoid a 404 not found, and that has nothing to do with having valid links within the site.  It's a separate issue.

    Again, repeating what I quoted: A visitor today refers one of my page links to one of his friends as, say, http://domain/folder-1/file.html but his friend does not look at it then. Instead he looks at that file a month later.  Meanwhile the file may have moved from folder-1 to folder-9 and the link has changed to http://domain/folder-9/file.html which he does not know."

    • Marked as answer by MR_2009 Monday, January 24, 2011 12:11 PM
    Sunday, January 23, 2011 9:31 PM
  • Yes, but we're both correct in that permalink is not what he wants or needs.

     


    Expression Web MVP
    Sunday, January 23, 2011 9:53 PM
  • Thanks to all of you who have taken your valuable time to respond.

    I have to study 301 redirects which I am going to do now after a little while.

    Before setting up EW4 I had referred to Tutorial by Pat Geary and I remember that meta-data had been enabled. Nevertheless, I verified it now and found that "maintain the site using hidden meta data files" box is already checked within “Site menu/Site Settings/General tab”. But then, I am not sure if that would help given the situation that I have not been able to fill up Meta data as yet though I am aware of its significance. [edited note: last part of the last sentence is incorrect as it referred to visible meta tags, whereas first two sentences of this para referred to hidden meta data] 

    I always make modifications within EW4. I never do them outside, for example, windows explorer because I know what happens then. Whenever I make modifications, I make it a point to submit a revised site map.xml to Goggle, Yahoo, and Bing.

    The site is in 8 languages, currently 1,200+ files with 50,000+ internal and 5,000+ external links. EW4 Reports/Site Summary shows not a single unlinked file or broken internal link.

    There are many folders. Each folder has multiple sub-folders. Each sub-folder has multiple sub-sub-folders. Each sub-sub-folder has multiple sub-sub-sub-folders.

    Each folder, sub-folder, sub-sub-folder, sub-sub-sub-folder has its own index file. Each index file contains of links to all files residing within the respective folder/sub-folder/sub-sub-folder/sub-sub-sub-folder. All these links and index files are inter-woven so well that there is not a single unlinked file or broken link reported by EW4.

    For some reason, I was experimenting with the possibility of replacing numerous index files by only a handful few. I know what would happen if I keep the folder structure, as it is, minus respective index files within each of them.

    That experimentation led me to move files within EW4. Initially, I tested my steps and they worked perfectly because not a single unlinked file or broken link showed up in EW4 site summary report. I did several rounds of tests with different folders and the approach worked perfectly.

    Now I know precisely what went wrong later. I have been able to replicate the issue. Therefore, I also know now how to deal with that type of situation.

    Now, I will search for more information about 301 redirects and its implementation.


    Thanks, M. R.
    • Edited by MR_2009 Monday, January 24, 2011 12:39 PM removed what was not relevant
    Monday, January 24, 2011 2:12 AM
  • "... given the situation that I have not been able to fill up Meta data as yet though I am aware of its significance"

    I do not think you do know the significance.
    You do not fill up the Meta data. Expression Web does that automatically as you create pages and links, and Publish. It creates the meta data based on what is there now, and what you add later. You do not see it or touch it.
     The hidden meta data has nothing to do with the <meta..> tags in the pages, if that is what you are thinking.

    "That experimentation led me to move files within EW4. Initially, I tested my steps and they worked perfectly because not a single unlinked file or broken link showed up in EW4 site summary report. I did several rounds of tests with different folders and the approach worked perfectly."
    That is a perfect example of the meta data in place and functioning.


    Ron Symonds
    Microsoft MVP (Expression Web)

    www.rxs-enterprises.org/fp
    Monday, January 24, 2011 9:05 AM
  • Yes, I mixed up meta data and meta tags. Thanks, Ron, for correcting me. I appreciate.


    Thanks, M. R.
    Monday, January 24, 2011 11:44 AM
  • Concluding Remarks:

    Steve and Scott focused their energies on telling what would not solve the issue.

    Kathy focused on telling what will solve the issue. Therefore, Kathy receives my Vote of Thanks.


    Thanks, M. R.
    Monday, January 24, 2011 3:34 PM
  • Well, no, we focused our energies on trying to figure out what you were actually talking about, since the terminology used and description of what you wanted to do were either inappropriate or so murky that three of us discussed it before concluding that, while you had both internal and external broken links, it was the external links you were concerned about.

    Steve correctly pointed out in an early response that permalinks have nothing to do with the problem you were describing. As my last post indicated, I was never actually quite sure exactly what you seemed to be after, resolving the broken internal links, external links, or both. In any event, we were not focused on "telling what would not solve the issue," but rather on figuring out just what the hel the issue was.



    Please remember to "Mark as Answer" the responses that resolved your issue. It is common courtesy to recognize those who have helped you, and it also makes it easier for visitors to find the resolution later.
    Monday, January 24, 2011 3:56 PM
  • No, Scott, Kathy understood the problem right away, others could not. I do not claim my expressions were at their best but then Kathy could read what others missed.

    As for Steve's early comment that permalinks wouldn't help, you might have already noticed that I had voted it as useful.

    As to your comments on my being clueless about site organization or management, I hope you have read the description I submitted later without complaining about your comments, as to how I organized and managed my site, and what EW4 Reports/Site Summary indicated. That should have addressed your concern.

    As for the problem of broken links, I already mentioned that I was able to replicate the issue, and thus, I knew exactly how to deal with it to prevent its reoccurrence. I was busy doing that while you guys were debating what I really wanted dissecting my description which you called as murky.

    Nevertheless, thanks for your time and effort, which I have conveyed before also. You see figuring out the relevant from a bundle of relevant and irrelevant, and then answering what would bring solution, is an art in itself, which we all do not necessarily possess. As for Kathy, I have observed it before also that she has the knack, and there is nothing wrong about admiring a distinct quality few possess. 


    Thanks, M. R.
    Tuesday, January 25, 2011 8:08 PM