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Why don't new apps start out at the top of the NEW list in the marketplace? RRS feed

  • General discussion

  • I know the answer to this will be because it is actually a NEW + RISING list whatever that means. But the only advertising a new app has is its position in the NEW app list. There is no other way to draw attention to your app. I have released 3 apps to the marketplace. The highest any app has ever started on the NEW list was 48th! With many older apps still listed higher. The last app I released started on the NEW list at 150th. Obvioulsy no one on earth saw that app.

    If you want to have a RISING list, that's fine, but it shouldn't be combined with the NEW list. It makes drawing attention to your new apps impossible. Until this is changed I wouldn't recommend any indepedent developers putting anything on the marketplace. It's a waste of time.

    • Changed type SillyPoint Wednesday, January 9, 2013 10:53 AM Not getting reply from Microsoft
    • Changed type Danny G. - MS Tuesday, January 29, 2013 6:16 AM
    Sunday, January 6, 2013 11:23 AM

All replies

  • So thats why i could not find  my app on the new list ...

    Right now it's pointless to publish free apps.


    Sunday, January 6, 2013 11:11 PM
  • It's not only free apps. My apps were paid apps, and they still start out way down the NEW list when they are published.


    Strategic Games

    Monday, January 7, 2013 10:07 AM
  • I don't know whose idea this was, it is just plain horrible. How does a new independent release get any visibility. Xbox live games have their own section. when you check the related section Xbox live games are usually pushed first. But they are now also being pushed in the New section. There is nothing new about the New category when the top 5 games in it are from 2-3 three weeks ago. Then, why do we have a Top category?

    What exactly is going on here. I have been holding out on the New section being fixed before I release anything. I am now seriously considering Android via Mono for Android and Monogame.
    • Edited by ex soft Saturday, January 12, 2013 9:59 PM
    Saturday, January 12, 2013 9:58 PM
  • This is also bad for Microsoft. If a user keeps checking the NEW list and sees the same apps there every time they will think that no one is developing for Windows phone. And they'll wonder why they didn't get an iPhone or Android instead.

    I was hoping someone from Microsoft would respond to this, but they haven't. If anyone knows a better way to get their attention, please let me know.


    Strategic Games

    Sunday, January 13, 2013 9:53 AM
  • yes this is terrible.. i think the entire process has gotten a lot worse.. it used to be a good way for new apps to get exposure by people just checking the new list and seeing the very latest that has come out each day... but no more...

    also add the horrible 7+ day turnaround just to get your app published... very disheartened right now....

    Sunday, January 13, 2013 10:19 PM
  • I would love to know the criteria they use to rank apps on the NEW + RISING list. I mean how do you rank a brand new app against an app that has been out for a month and selling well? Which app goes above the other? It doesn't make sense.

    Strategic Games

    Monday, January 14, 2013 8:48 AM
  • I would love to find an answer to this also.  The game I just created took a few days to show up on search, then a few more days to show up in the New+Rising list for its category (card & board) in 262nd place!
    Tuesday, January 15, 2013 8:48 PM
  • Guys, here's my take on the logic behind the new + rising decision:

    1. Most users do not visit the "new" section daily.
    This is just a pure guess, but I would say 95% of WP users do not visit the "new" section daily. And I bet 90% don't even visit it every 3 days!

    So then as Microsoft, you want to cater to the majority... if people only check the "new + rising" section say once every week, then shouldn't they see the best new apps for the whole week, instead of the new crappy apps for that day? The new system does exactly this.

    The best solution would obviously be to observe when the user last visited the new section, and then uniquely provide them with "new" results that were published since they last looked... but that's quite a bit more complicated than any current app store, and it's silly for us to expect that Microsoft would do that.

    2. The old "new" section was filled with crappy apps and 0 ratings
    Visiting the old "new" section was painful. There were so many useless apps (many that just opened a web page) that finding anything good was always tough. Plus, none of the apps had ratings since they were just released that day!!!

    The old "new" section was simply a bad user experience due to the aforementioned reasons. The "new + rising" section has plenty of reviews, and displays *quality* new apps. The top 3 apps have 4.5 star ratings from 160+ reviews!! Those are clearly GOOD *new* apps.

    3. There are plenty of ways to promote your app
    It's not Microsoft's job to promote your app. It's Microsoft's job to promote apps that people want. How would Microsoft know that your app is worthy of promoting, when it has the exact same number of downloads as an awful app that simply opens a web page?? Once Microsoft's algorithm starts to see that people want your app (it got more downloads), they'll promote it.

    Promote your app on websites like Reddit.com or wmpoweruser.com. You can post your app there for free, and hundreds of thousands of Windows Phone fans will see it. Posting on WMPoweruser will get you 500+ downloads in one day (I write for WMPoweruser and am also a developer, I've experienced this). Posting on Reddit will get you tons of feedback on your app (though probably fewer downloads... I don't think as many people use Reddit).

    Wednesday, January 23, 2013 7:02 PM
  • Points 1 &2: If users want to see the "Best" apps they can go to the Best or Top categories. Why do we need 3 categories with virtually the same apps in them?

    Point 3: Why shouldn't Microsoft be promoting our apps? They make money from this too. Shouldn't they try to make the marketplace the very best place to put your app?


    Strategic Games

    Thursday, January 24, 2013 9:30 AM
  • Obvious answer: Best or Top category are for ALL TIME. The new+rising is only for the last month. There's a big difference.

    And point three... Okay, tell me how Microsoft can know that your app is worthy of promoting, when it has exactly the same downloads and ratings as an app that simply opens a web page. Please do tell me.

    Thursday, January 24, 2013 1:35 PM
  • 1. This brings me back to an earlier question I raised. How are the New + Rising apps ranked? How do you rank a brand new app against something that has been on the list for 3 weeks? Which comes above the other?

    2. Microsoft doesn't need to know how good my app is. They should promote all the apps equally. That is my point. If one brand new app shows up at 256th on the New + Rising list, and another shows up at 21st on the list, that is not promoting all apps equally.


    Strategic Games

    Thursday, January 24, 2013 1:56 PM
  • andrewbares7  is right I think, most users don't visit the new page every day, and with a little bit of marketing, devs can get their app to the new+rising for a week or so and really kickstart their app. The old new list was awful, as it was dumb luck if you got to be #35 or #1 for that day, now better apps are getting bubbled to the top.

    It's evidently working as app downloads and revenue is way up according to MS.

    Thursday, January 24, 2013 6:09 PM
  • No, they should not promote all apps equally. An app that simply opens a web page deserves ZERO promotion.

    Microsoft doesn't release details about how sorting algorithms work. But it's probably a combination of downloads and ratings, and the cutoff date seems to be 1 month for an app to be considered "new".

    Thursday, January 24, 2013 6:50 PM
  • You see, I would have said the same thing about apps that only make fart noises, but many people download those apps. So I don't think anyone should say what apps deserve promotion and which apps don't. Promote all apps the same and let the public decide.

    I fully understand why you would want a catagory that has the currently popular apps in it. I don't have a problem with that. But to mix that category with brand new apps using some mysterious algorithm that no one knows, just doesn't make sense to me. Have two categories, NEW and POPULAR, so that everybody can understand how the apps are ranked in them.


    Strategic Games

    Friday, January 25, 2013 9:43 AM
  • Like I've said before, "new + rising" is not difficult to understand.

    1) "new" - by definition means "not existing before." All the apps in the new + rising category were "not existing before" a month ago.

    2) "rising" - by definition means "going up, getting higher". By assumption, and using the context, this means "getting higher in popularity.

    Therefore, "new + rising" equals "apps that did not exist a month ago which are getting higher in popularity.

    It is quite clear. If you want to argue silly stuff, then "Oh my gosh., the "top free" section's name is so vague! What does "top" mean??? It could mean top overall downloads, top downloads in last month, highest rated, a combination of all three...

    And Microsoft's goal is to get people to download apps, because downloads make Microsoft money. So Microsoft should definitely be in control of deciding what is worthy of promoting! That's like opening a shoe store but then deciding not to promote the best shoe ever just to be "fair" to the crappy shoe products. In real life, store owners promote the things that are actually going to sell.

    Friday, January 25, 2013 10:10 AM
  • I can't understand this move at all!

    The one thing MS needs is more apps, the biggest argument against MS seems to be the lack of apps and games compared to Android and iOS.

    So why change a system that worked perfectly well and really helped their developers get noticed to a system which almost completely alienates them.

    The last game I released was 5 months ago received 5000 downloads on the first day! The game I released 3 days ago has yet to receive a single play(according to pubcenter) 

    I was annoyed enough at their lack of XNA support and now this.

    I think I'm officially done with Windows Phone development.


    follow me on twitter @flumpstudios

    Friday, January 25, 2013 12:43 PM
  • Flump: the old system did NOT work "perfectly well" in Microsoft's opinion, which is obviously why they changed it.

    You may not agree with the opinion behind their decision, but I'm simply sharing why I think they made the move.

    The old system was awful... It showed apps with 0 reviews. Users had no way of knowing what was good. And frankly, 95% of the apps in the old section were pure crap.

    On the topic of downloads... Does PubCenter report things that quickly? I know the dev center is delayed by 5 days.

    But anyways, I already listed ways to promote your app. Oh and by the way, 5,000 downloads on the first day is completely out of the ordinary and NOT expected with the old system. You either got very lucky to get all of those downloads, or you made a truly kickass game! But expecting 5,000 downloads the first day..... LOL is all I can say.

    Friday, January 25, 2013 5:34 PM
  • The old system did not work perfectly well because people released crappy apps/games and microsoft had to let them pass through since they had basic functionality. But what the old system did is put every non-xbox live release on an almost equal footing at its start.That is when the New section should be about.

    The old system showed new apps. Hope you understand the concept of New Apps. They are apps that most likely have not been reviewed by anyone. There is nothing awful about that. Now, under the old system, as long as Microsoft pushed your game into the market with the 24 hour windows they claim you got an initial surge in downloads. If you had a crappy game, you will get no/low reviews or fewer downloads.  Also some people will look at screenshot. Your download will also dip down from that surge. If you had good game you will get a high number of downloads, a few good reviews and your app surges up the other charts because of that. there you continue getting a lower but steady flow of downloads depending on how good it is. A bad game/app, you will see you downloads dip down to almost none a day.

    With this new system. If your game makes it into the top 50 of the new section in its own category, you are lucky. Think more like top 200. The current new New category is what's broken. It almost seems like there is a little human intervention in it. They are all over the place in reviews and review count.

    The second game for almost 5 days is Burger Station with 2.5 rating. In the top 20 for that same amount of time you have Break Glass&Cam. It has only one rating which is 1 star as I write this. AngryPig, SongGame, TheGardener. All rated less than 2.5 all in the top 50 of the new category and out for over 3 weeks. What is rising about them? surely not their ratings.

    Red Bull Kart Fighter is still in the top 12 after over a month in the market. It's also in the top 5 in the Top Free category where it should be. a few other games have been out for 1 to 2 months and are still in the top 100 of the new category.

    A surge of over 1000 downloads on the first day was very normal in the old system. The current system, less than 100 worldwide downloads in your first 2 days is what you are likely to see. 

    Here, you have decided that the broken new category is nice so that you can sell us a website you write on and have interest in. What next, we hire a PR firm to promote our apps? For many of us, this is hobby/indie stuff. I have given examples of how and why it is currently broken. Microsoft does not owe us marketing for our apps. They owe a level playing field for newly released apps. That's what a new section should be.

    Also:The dev center delayed by 2 days, not 5. At least that's what mine shows.




    • Edited by ex soft Saturday, January 26, 2013 3:37 PM
    Saturday, January 26, 2013 2:59 PM
  • Thanks for the specific examples. Something my entries lacked.

    Strategic Games

    Saturday, January 26, 2013 3:28 PM
  • "All rated less than 2.5 all in the top 50 of the new category and out for over 3 weeks. What is rising about them? surely not their ratings."

    So? What's your point? Rising includes DOWNLOADS and ratings, not just ratings. Burger Station is getting a ton of downloads for all we know. Guess what... Twitter and Facebook only have 3 stars and yet they are some of the most downloaded apps. Poor ratings != poor downloads.

    I hope you understand the concept that the word "new" is relative. You simply think new should mean released within a few days... Microsoft thinks it should mean released within a month. Both of you are right, because it's relative.

    And LOL, promoting your app on WMPU is free (writing a press release is... there are paid advertisements, but I NEVER told you to do those...), same as Reddit... free. Nice try. I would have mentioned WPCentral, but all you can do there is suggest that they review your app... there's no guarantee of an article about your app being posted. With WMPU, you're guaranteed to get it posted, and it's free.

    Why does Microsoft "owe" you a level playing field? If you make a new cereal, and you go to a grocery store and are like "Hey I made this new cereal, check it out!" and Kellogs also made a new cereal, and they go to the grocery store at the same time... guess which is going to be put on the front shelves of the store... Kellogs obviously. Stores promote what sells. There is no such thing as a level playing field in real life. You have to work to move up.


    Saturday, January 26, 2013 6:32 PM
  • Obviously it's not working properly as Cut sexy girl has been at the top of the list for weeks, it has a 1.5 rating and even has a typo in the title.

    I've released 2 games in the last month 1 was lucky enough to stay at the top of the Flying and racing list for a week and hit 50k downloads and the other on just never seemed to appear and has 3 downloads.

    It's all just luck now, not really encouraging to developers who can spend months or years on a project.

    Also it's way harder to market on windows phone as most sites won't even look at a review or give you coverage unless you're on iOS or android as well.


     

    follow me on twitter @flumpstudios

    Tuesday, February 26, 2013 6:24 PM
  • Dude those "hot girl" apps get a TON of downloads. Their algorithm factors in downloads AND reviews. Clearly the downloads are high enough that it's popular. And I told you, publish a FREE press release on WMPoweruser. We get around 100,000 views a day, and you're exposing yourself to true Windows Phone fans. Also, contact WPCentral and ask if they would review your game. They're the biggest Windows Phone site. They could care less if you don't make iOS games.
    Tuesday, February 26, 2013 7:07 PM
  • I think the new+rising algorithm works well... at least in my case.

    Two weeks ago I published an app in the music + video category, a music downloader to be more precise. I made this app because I couldn't find any decent app to download music directly in the phone's media library. Many of the other mp3 downloaders were just browsers actually. This was the first app I ever made, however I've been programming for quite a while so I care a lot about the quality of my programs, so I took my time polishing it before I published it.

    The app was somewhere around position 300+ in the new+rising list (US) when I published it. After one week it was in top 100. Now it's number 12. I did absolutely no promotion for this app and yet it is at the top after just two weeks.

    It has just a couple of reviews because I didn't want my app to be like all the shi*** ones that beg for reviews all the time. Turns out it doesn't even need to have tons of reviews in order to be at the top.

    Wednesday, February 27, 2013 4:29 PM
  • clearly there is something wrong with this system if it looks broken and feels broken, and annoys/confuses both developers and customers.

    If this were a real shop it would be the equivalent of your game/app being put at the very bottom of a Bargain Bin on the day of release.

    Please sort this out ASAP, I really don't care about replication and all that rubbish, this is 2013, and we talking about less than 150 000 apps total.... it shouldn't require days before the system is up to date.

    Time to put Azure to better use and make the marketplace a little more real time.


    SniperED007 - [url="http://www.torchbear.com"]Torchbear - worlds biggest relay![/url]

    Saturday, March 9, 2013 5:02 PM
  • So , Microsoft has deep in a.. new apps. As the user I see at NEW tab still the same apps , I thought that  no one publish new apps or games. So there are new apps but  MS just hides them . THIS IS F.. UNFAIR. I do not see any sense with wasting time to produce apps if no one can find it.
    Saturday, March 23, 2013 7:19 AM