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Windows embedded compact future Version RRS feed

  • Question

  • is windows embedded compact future end?

    im developing program for window CE 

    Window CE is Gold for industries use RealTime OS and Familiar to PC Programing C# .net compact framework

    is coming new .net compact framework version in future? ya everything END no any future version of window CE

    Saturday, December 5, 2015 2:50 PM

Answers

  • Pascal:

    I get what you are saying, I have been working on real-time systems for over 20 years.  You may in fact need an RTOS, but:

    1. When you move to a new RTOS, MFC won't be there.  Windows CE removed it many years ago, not that this stops you from using it still today.  But, when you say that it is a need, you really mean that it is a need for your apps today.  The world has been moving away from MFC for a long time, and toward modern. easier and more flexible GUI tools, like the .NET Framework.
    2. Determinism doesn't require an RTOS.  You may find that a new architecture and/or much faster CPU will eliminate the need - and again, you may not.

    One of the first systems that I worked on was replaced by a COTS PC running Windows XP.  This was accomplished by using a new architecture that offloaded some processing to separate hardware, and by using a processor that was many times faster than the one that we had previously used.

    The point of this response is simply keep an open mind.



    Bruce Eitman (eMVP)
    Senior Engineer
    Bruce.Eitman AT Eurotech DOT com
    My BLOG http://geekswithblogs.net/bruceeitman
    I work for Eurotech

    Thursday, December 10, 2015 2:58 PM
    Moderator
  • Windows Compact 2013 will be supported until 2023 and will continue to run on your design.  The following table is from

    https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/lifecycle?p1=17467

    Products Released Lifecycle Start Date Mainstream Support End Date Extended Support End Date Service Pack Support End Date Notes
    Windows Embedded Compact 2013 8/11/2013 10/9/2018 10/10/2023

    The next step for devices and .NET Framework is Windows 10 which has several SKUs.  At the low end is Windows 10 IoT Core, which is designed for devices.

    I too have been working on Real-Time systems for many years - most with lower end processors so an OS with Real-Time support was necessary.  Modern computers tend to be much faster, so in many cases a RTOS isn't quite as necessary. 

    Of course, there will still be some cases where an RTOS is necessary so possibly a new architecture will be necessary.  This might include having a processor for GUI and a processor for the RTOS - although by offloading the Real-Time processing, the RTOS might again be unnecessary.



    Bruce Eitman (eMVP)
    Senior Engineer
    Bruce.Eitman AT Eurotech DOT com
    My BLOG http://geekswithblogs.net/bruceeitman
    I work for Eurotech



    Monday, December 7, 2015 2:59 PM
    Moderator

All replies

  • Windows Compact 2013 will be supported until 2023 and will continue to run on your design.  The following table is from

    https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/lifecycle?p1=17467

    Products Released Lifecycle Start Date Mainstream Support End Date Extended Support End Date Service Pack Support End Date Notes
    Windows Embedded Compact 2013 8/11/2013 10/9/2018 10/10/2023

    The next step for devices and .NET Framework is Windows 10 which has several SKUs.  At the low end is Windows 10 IoT Core, which is designed for devices.

    I too have been working on Real-Time systems for many years - most with lower end processors so an OS with Real-Time support was necessary.  Modern computers tend to be much faster, so in many cases a RTOS isn't quite as necessary. 

    Of course, there will still be some cases where an RTOS is necessary so possibly a new architecture will be necessary.  This might include having a processor for GUI and a processor for the RTOS - although by offloading the Real-Time processing, the RTOS might again be unnecessary.



    Bruce Eitman (eMVP)
    Senior Engineer
    Bruce.Eitman AT Eurotech DOT com
    My BLOG http://geekswithblogs.net/bruceeitman
    I work for Eurotech



    Monday, December 7, 2015 2:59 PM
    Moderator
  • I think this not all about PC's etc.

    It is about SoC's and embeddeed platforms.

    Windows Embedded Compact is ideal for developing various industrial devices which need realtime features.

    Giving that it is Win32 API it gives you PC emulation for your device for free.

    Development requirements are also reduced because you can do 90% of your work just for normal PC Win32 and 10% of code for your specific hardware.

    Develpment tools are inexpensive and widely available.

    That's why we stay with WindowsCE/EC

    Windows10 on ARM7 iMX6?

    I don't think so...

    Alexey

    Wednesday, December 9, 2015 4:27 PM
  • Before you object too strenuously, you really should try Windows 10 IoT Core on a Raspberry Pi 2. It runs nicely on its 900MHz quad-core ARM Cortex-A7 CPU. You can pick up Raspberry Pi 2 fairly inexpensively (in the US anyway).

    It uses the same dev tools, except the latest versions.



    Bruce Eitman (eMVP)
    Senior Engineer
    Bruce.Eitman AT Eurotech DOT com
    My BLOG http://geekswithblogs.net/bruceeitman
    I work for Eurotech


    • Edited by Bruce EitmanModerator Wednesday, December 9, 2015 9:16 PM Finished my sentance on picking up a RP2
    Wednesday, December 9, 2015 6:47 PM
    Moderator
  • Bruce,

    I do understand your points and I think you are right.

    But 'real time features' for my compancy is a 'must have'.

    Just because we make industrial devices which rely on predictable interrupt-to-action sequence chain.

    I would be delighted to try Win10 in action but if it does not have real-time that's not an option.

    It would be very unfortunate for us to move to something else after all those years with WinCE but if this is the only option I am afraid we will have to do it one day...

    Alexey

    Thursday, December 10, 2015 9:46 AM
  • Bruce, Alexey,

    this is the same for my company. We are also in the industrial sector and have also the mandatory need for a deterministic OS. Also, all our programs require the MFC, which is not included in Win10IOT anymore.

    TL;DR:

    Our needs are a deterministic OS and MFC support.

    Regards,

    Pascal

    Thursday, December 10, 2015 10:10 AM
  • Pascal:

    I get what you are saying, I have been working on real-time systems for over 20 years.  You may in fact need an RTOS, but:

    1. When you move to a new RTOS, MFC won't be there.  Windows CE removed it many years ago, not that this stops you from using it still today.  But, when you say that it is a need, you really mean that it is a need for your apps today.  The world has been moving away from MFC for a long time, and toward modern. easier and more flexible GUI tools, like the .NET Framework.
    2. Determinism doesn't require an RTOS.  You may find that a new architecture and/or much faster CPU will eliminate the need - and again, you may not.

    One of the first systems that I worked on was replaced by a COTS PC running Windows XP.  This was accomplished by using a new architecture that offloaded some processing to separate hardware, and by using a processor that was many times faster than the one that we had previously used.

    The point of this response is simply keep an open mind.



    Bruce Eitman (eMVP)
    Senior Engineer
    Bruce.Eitman AT Eurotech DOT com
    My BLOG http://geekswithblogs.net/bruceeitman
    I work for Eurotech

    Thursday, December 10, 2015 2:58 PM
    Moderator
  • Hello,

    we are in the same situation. We need a deterministic OS. This was the main reason why we have chosen WinCE (and not Linux).

    "Determinism doesn't require an RTOS" is for me a strange remark.

    Determinism does not happen by luck - it must be built into the system.

    Much faster CPUs don't help - Intel i7 quad core is not more deterministic than an Atom processor.

    Kind regards

    Franz

    Wednesday, January 20, 2016 11:37 AM
  • Hello Franz,

    Bruce has been in the Embedded business for quite a long time and I can vouch for his discussion regarding solutions that off-load the real time requirement to a subsystem, much like Graphics processing is off loaded to a GPU.  That means the OS does not need to be real time as the determinism requirement is met by the dedicated subsystem.  This has a distinct advantage over RTOS as third party apps can actually clog an RTOS if the programmers are not careful while the deterministic subsystem access is outside the OS therefore not directly impacted by third party apps.

    Sincerely,

    IoTGirl

    • Proposed as answer by DaveVMVP Thursday, January 21, 2016 11:13 AM
    • Unproposed as answer by DaveVMVP Thursday, January 21, 2016 11:14 AM
    Wednesday, January 20, 2016 5:25 PM
    Moderator
  • All good points... most we have all heard over the years.

    Bottom line .."Real Time" is a relative term. The fact is there are fewer and fewer problems that cannot be solved by just using the "faster" and "newer" hardware/os. The whole industry would have died off long ago if that was not the case. You can fight it but I am afraid you will be on the losing side of history.

    Dave


    Dave

    Thursday, January 21, 2016 11:24 AM
  • Hi Dave,

    yes, I agree: There is not much hope that Microsoft changes mind. We are too few.

    Microsoft has told us what we need and we have to believe it.

    For the still non believing people there a couple of companies that provide real time extensions to Windows (maybe in future also for Win10/ARM) like sybera.com, ktihara.de, on-time.com, intervalzero.com and many more.

    Unfortunately these extensions are not cheap and so for those who are starting a new project in controlling area Linux with real time extension may be the only option.

    Kind regards

    Franz

    Friday, January 22, 2016 7:29 AM
  • Hi,

    I have heard very recently from a Microsoft representative that Microsoft has not abandoned the Windows Embedded Compact OS and that they will announce this year their plan for upcoming Windows Embedded product line.

    So Compact 2013 is not the end of the road for Microsoft.

    Friday, January 29, 2016 4:46 PM
  • Mario:

    Nobody said the Compact 2013 is the end of the road for Microsoft.  You are correct that there are new and exciting offerings - but they are not Windows CE/Compact which is a very different than the future of Windows.

    What I am saying is that very different isn't necessarily a bad thing for the industry.  But of course when things change, it means that some percent of the old and good don't make the turn onto the new road...



    Bruce Eitman (eMVP)
    Senior Engineer
    Bruce.Eitman AT Eurotech DOT com
    My BLOG http://geekswithblogs.net/bruceeitman
    I work for Eurotech

    Saturday, February 6, 2016 12:37 AM
    Moderator
  • Hi Bruce,

    as Alexey, Pascal and I said: real time behaviour is crucial for us.

    If the some percent of the old and good include this realtime feature we will have to look for a different bride - despite all the new exciting features.

    Later this month the Embedded World will take place in Nuremberg.

    205 exhibitors are listed for realtime operating systems, 59 of them with WinCE.

    I don't think they will be happy....

    Kind regards

    Franz

    Friday, February 12, 2016 6:48 PM
  • Hi Bruce,

    This is not what I heard.  They still have plan for a successor to Windows Embedded Compact 2013.  The rep told us that this is the ONLY real-time OS they have so they will introduce a newer one, not based on Windows IOT or anything, but the WEC kernel.



    Tuesday, February 16, 2016 1:58 PM
  • Hi Mario,

    Could you please have your representative respond to this thread?

    Sincerest thanks,

    IoTGirl

    Tuesday, February 16, 2016 8:05 PM
    Moderator
  • No answer is an answer too.
    Saturday, March 26, 2016 8:10 AM