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Windows 8 Start button removed by Microsoft in 'Consumer Preview'

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  • Hi I-DotNET,

    I don't think this is the right forum to comment on leaks / rumors. We are expecting a Beta soon but no such Preview was announced by Microsoft at http://blogs.msdn.com/b/b8/, the place where Windows8 development is discussed in detail.


    Irfan
    Monday, February 06, 2012 2:31 PM
  • That isn't confirmed, but in any case it would be in exactly the same way you do in the developer preview with the minor exception of a slightly different route to the Start charm.

    Monday, February 06, 2012 3:39 PM
  • No. They did not remove the Start orb, but it's hide. To show it, just move your mouse to the left down side of your screen.

    And you can search apps with traditional search or go to WE and find the apps folder.

    Monday, February 06, 2012 4:04 PM
  • Hi I-DotNET,

    I don't think this is the right forum to comment on leaks / rumors. We are expecting a Beta soon but no such Preview was announced by Microsoft at http://blogs.msdn.com/b/b8/, the place where Windows8 development is discussed in detail.


    Irfan

    Unfortunately, the Building Windows 8 blog is a one-sided discussion.  Try to ask a question or bring up a legitimate point, and it just gets ignored. 
    Tuesday, February 07, 2012 12:35 PM
  • Hi I-DotNET,

    agree, totally. Have tried once.


    Irfan


    • Edited by Irfanfare Tuesday, February 07, 2012 1:46 PM to correct
    Tuesday, February 07, 2012 1:44 PM
  • No. They did not remove the Start orb, but it's hide. To show it, just move your mouse to the left down side of your screen.

    And you can search apps with traditional search or go to WE and find the apps folder.


    So, there's no easy way to launch a desktop app in desktop mode?  I have to search for it or manually try to find the excutable in Windows Explorer?
    Tuesday, February 07, 2012 2:45 PM
  • Guys,

    we are discussing a hypothetical issue. Chances are, there really is nothing to discuss, if MS removes the Start Button, an alternative will be provided for it. The desktop mode can't be wished away, nor can one ignore the hugely popular apps like AutoCAD, PS, Acrobat, Corel etc which need a desktop to operate well. Just relax. 


    Irfan

    Tuesday, February 07, 2012 3:29 PM
  • All you need to do is press the windows key on your keyboard, and start typing the app name.

    If you can't remember any part of the app name, then you can open the search screen in three clicks/touches and have an alphabetised list of all your installed apps.

    Alternatively you can pin any frequently used apps to the desktop bar.

    I know of no way that this was quicker to do in windows 7 or prior.

    Tuesday, February 07, 2012 3:30 PM
  • Guys,

    we are discussing a hypothetical issue. Chances are, there really is nothing to discuss, if MS removes the Start Button, an alternative will be provided for it. The desktop mode can't be wished away, nor can one ignore the hugely popular apps like AutoCAD, PS, Acrobat, Corel etc which need a desktop to operate well. Just relax. 


    Irfan


    It's not just a rumor.  It was confirmed by Microsoft insider, Paul Therrott.
    Tuesday, February 07, 2012 3:41 PM
  • All you need to do is press the windows key on your keyboard, and start typing the app name.

    If you can't remember any part of the app name, then you can open the search screen in three clicks/touches and have an alphabetised list of all your installed apps.

    Alternatively you can pin any frequently used apps to the desktop bar.

    I know of no way that this was quicker to do in windows 7 or prior.


    But doesn't that take me to Metro?  My question was how do you run apps from the Desktop.  There doesn't seem to be an easy way to do this anymore.
    Tuesday, February 07, 2012 3:42 PM
  • What keeps you from pinning the app to the task bar, and start it from there?

    Irfan

    Tuesday, February 07, 2012 4:05 PM
  • What keeps you from pinning the app to the task bar, and start it from there?

    Irfan


    I have dozens, if not hundreds of desktop apps.  Not all of them can fit on the Task Bar. 
    Tuesday, February 07, 2012 4:09 PM
  • I-DotNET,

    that's one of the reasons why the Metro Screen was concieved, because it could hold a lot more apps or their icons than did the Start Menu of Windows 7 or the earlier versions.


    Irfan

    Tuesday, February 07, 2012 4:37 PM
  • Metro is no different from the start menu. It's not a case of 'having to launch metro to launch an app', That would like saying you used to have to 'launch the start menu program, to find an app'. It's merely presented in a different format, one that can display more data and is more powerful.

    Tuesday, February 07, 2012 5:31 PM
  • Metro is no different from the start menu. It's not a case of 'having to launch metro to launch an app', That would like saying you used to have to 'launch the start menu program, to find an app'. It's merely presented in a different format, one that can display more data and is more powerful.


    Switching from Desktop to Metro is a jarring, disturbing experience.  I really wish MS would pay more attention to UX.
    Tuesday, February 07, 2012 5:43 PM
  • What more do you want

    Wednesday, February 08, 2012 12:03 AM
  • Wednesday, February 08, 2012 3:11 PM
  • Nice try, but this is even better ;)


    ~~ Graham

    Wednesday, February 08, 2012 11:28 PM
  • Graham

    I have to say that from the point of view of opening a program (which is what we are trying to avoid the Start Menu to do) yours does look to work better. I have not yet figured out how you managed to swap 'Desktop' for 'Programs' yet though.

    Thursday, February 09, 2012 1:20 AM
  • Got it.
    Wednesday, February 15, 2012 10:41 PM
  • I have less than 26 apps that I use daily. They all fit onto the Quick Launch Bar.
    The Quick Launch Bar is still available in the Developer Preview.
    So loosing the 'Start Menu' wasn't an issue to me, for I never used it.

    But those who state that they have hundreds of application which they need to launch
    from the Start Menu, that too is still available. It is available without any registry tweaks
    or downloads to install.

    Simply make a copy of the Start Menu folders and their subfolders and then rename that
    copied folder to "Programs".
     
    Here are the paths to those Folders and Files:

    c:\ProgramData\Microsoft\Windows\Start Menu
    c:\%USERPROFILE%\AppData\Roaming\Microsoft\Windows\Start Menu

    If there is more than one user on the system, then you must merge the Start Menu
    for each of the users to 'capture' every shortcut into your "Programs" toolbar.

    Right click on a blank area of the TaskBar and choose Toolbars then New Toolbar..
    Then browse to your newly created "Programs" folder and "Select Folder"

    ============================================

    In my example, I have not yet deleted the links to the Immersive Control Panel nor
    the Windows Store. One should deleted them or ignore them for they will not launch.

    Yes, it is true that the indexed/search field is no longer available. So if that was
    the reason for your use of the Start Menu, then you need not bother with this tip.
    But as you can see, a reasonable facsimile of the legacy Start Menu is available
    if you so desire to use it to ease your intro into Wintro.

    Remove the training wheels when and if you feel comfortable.

    Cheers
    Windunce

    start-menu




    • Edited by windunce Sunday, February 26, 2012 4:41 AM Inclusivity
    Thursday, February 16, 2012 12:53 AM
  • Windunce

    Any programs I install are, of course, on the desktop. The few that I use frequently have been dragged to the taskbar. I also use other programs such as Notepad, paint or control panel etc. In W7 this was fine using the Start panel but in W8 we are directed to the Metro start panel. After installing a few programs this becomes a real mess and requires some effort to tidy things up so that only the required programs are shown. Even so, the tiles are so big that it is still an effort to find what you want.

    I have tried the quick launch bar (but I was in W7 at the time). For me the small icons are too small and with a lot of icons would have difficulty in knowing what each one was. BTW not helped by needing an eye cataract operation. Hence my preference is for the Taskbar toolbar method where it is easy to see the 'Start' list and navigate to the required program. Otherwise I might use another folder containing only links for the programs I use.

    As you say, the control panel and store do not work presumably because they are now mainly Metro apps.

    Thursday, February 16, 2012 1:53 AM
  • I've put words in your mouth,[edited your quote] but no need for Listerine. They're not dirty words :)
    To me there was a bit of ambiquity in figuring out exactly what you were trying to express.
    By all means, correct me if I was wrong in those assumptions.


    Windunce
     
    Any programs I install are, of course, on the desktop.


    The above statement puzzles me, for I always install programs to Program Files or Program Files(x86).
    You must have the messiest Desktop on the planet!


    The few that I use frequently have been dragged to the Taskbar.

    Understood. Though I use a double-wide auto-hide Taskbar. For the most part I use the Taskbar
    to display only running applications and relegate 'launchables?' to Quick Launch Toolbar below it.


    I also use other programs such as Notepad, Paint or Control Panel etc.
    In W7 this was fine using the Start Menu but in W8 we are directed to the Metro Start Screen.
    After installing a few programs this becomes a real mess and requires some effort to tidy
    things up so that only the required programs are shown.

    Even so, the tiles are so big that it is still an effort to find what you want.

    Agreed. Though to me, the effort expended to tidy up the Start Screen isn't any more or less taxing than
    tidying up the TaskBar or the Toolbars or Quick Launch. Set it and then forget it, until you install a new
    application.

    Consumer Preview may allow one to insert ANY [appropriately sized] picture onto ANY Pinnable application's tile.

    If you look at "WordHunt" and there is no ambiguity whatsoever. If one was allowed to do the
    same to all tiles it might then be easier to 'find what you want'.

    Attached is my Icon/Tile for a Microsoft Word shortcut. Yes, it's a joke, but it
    exemplifies my intent of showing how one can use icons/Tiles to elucidate their meaning
    to a user in a personal way.

    I have tried the Quick Launch bar. For me the small icons are too small and with a lot of icons
    I would have difficulty in knowing what each one was.

    Have you tried displaying the LARGE icons in Quick Launch, as shown in my screen capture?
    As for your difficulty, you can change the Icon to most anything to help you recognize
    what application the Icon refers too. There are plenty in imageres.dll and many program's
    .exe files have additional Icons embedded in them. So you could change the icon to one that
    gives you that aha feeling.

    BTW not helped by needing an eye cataract operation.

    Oh great, same here. So our banter is an example the blind leading the blind...ha ha

    Hence my preference is for the Taskbar toolbar....
    ...method where it is easy to see the 'Start' list and navigate to the required program.

    Sorry you lost me here. I have no idea what you are referring to with the term "Taskbar toolbar"

    If I assume you mean a Start Menu toolbar[List?] added to the Taskbar, then yes I understand your preference.

    Otherwise I might use another folder containing only links for the programs I use.

    That might just be the ticket to usability for you. Make a folder and place your most frequently used
    program shortcuts into that folder. Then browse and turn it into a New Toolbar placed on your TaskBar and voila.

    Good luck with your operation and your attempts to navigate this new operating system :)

    Cheers
    Windunce

    *Removed image*



    Thursday, February 16, 2012 3:40 AM
  • Maybe I should get to know the Microsoft forum dialect a bit more.


    What I meant was that I install a program in the same way that everyone else does and that, during the installation, I agree to the adding of a shortcut for that program being added to the desktop. Hence I can start programs from the desktop. The 'everyday' programs I put on the taskbar. There are not many of these but they do quick access if multitasking.


    Now I come to what used to be the start menu. We all use that for hardware or system specific requirements but will now have to use the Metro Start menu. This is somewhere I do not really want to go but will reserve judgement until I see the beta. I would prefer to remain on the destop and mention has been made of the Quick Launch bar. I appreciate your suggestions but must say that I have never been a fan of the QLB even on XP. That leaves using using toolbars on the taskbar and I show the one for programs. Unfortunately those which are now Metro specific such as control panel do not work (at the moment) but for the most part I find this easy to navigate.


    I hope that clarifies things a bit.


    BTW An eye operation is scheduled in 2-3 months.

    Friday, February 17, 2012 10:00 PM
  • Understood, quite clearly :)

    You're doing just fine. Forum dialect is perfect, but we all have to learn a new language [or at the least a few new words].

    Start SCREEN???????   Huh????  Oh, so that what it means! That big thing with all the tiles!

    METRO????? I thought that was a new version of sexuality. Hetro-Homo-A-Metro

    This OS is not that difficult to navigate and  figure out, but I am nowhere near having it ALL figured out.
    In fact, as of yet, I doubt that Microsoft has it all figured out either.


    It's surely a way to break boredom, the ultimate Rubik's Cube.
    Am I out to lunch, as I'm out to launch?

    Hopefully well before the final release, we'll be singing both be singing Johnny Nash's big hit.


    Cheers
    Windunce

    Saturday, February 18, 2012 5:23 AM
  • As I have just said elsewhere, the Metro start screen need not be a bad idea if it could be reconfigured to suit the desktop.
    Saturday, February 18, 2012 6:02 PM
  • I've been doing a lot of research lately, and I'm more convinced than ever that the desktop is dead.  Phasing it out is a process that will take years, but I wouldn't be surprised if Windows 9 made installing the desktop optional on tablets (especially ARM) and completely removed by Windows 9 or 10.


    • Edited by I-DotNET Saturday, February 18, 2012 6:15 PM Spelling.
    Saturday, February 18, 2012 6:14 PM
  • I don't see how the removal of the windows button makes any shred of difference, considering what the button does in the WDP...

    How to start desktop apps?

    Several (easy) ways:

    1. clicking shortcuts on the desktop (something almost any application will provide during install by default)

    2. clicking shortcuts pinned to taskbar

    3. clicking shortcuts pinned to metro start screen

    4. hitting windows key on keyboard and type name of the application.

    What's the big deal?

    I'll also add that, imo, there is no such thing as "desktop mode".  The desktop is an integral part of windows and it ain't going anywhere.  It's just as important as it always was.

    Windows just evolved into something more modern that also accomodates for touchscreens and tablet pc's.  That's all.  Wheter you like that evolution or not is another issue.  But personally, I don't see how launching desktop apps is any more difficult now then it used to be.

    I can't even remember the last time I actually dived into the start menu to launch an app.  I actually think I've never done that since I'm on windows 7 (and I loved 7 so much that it has been my primary OS since the beta).  Come to think of it...  I am not capable of listing the items found in the 7 start menu, aside from 'my computer' and the search box.  Nore do I know what kind of new features it has compared to the vista or XP menu.   And I've been using this OS since before day 1.

    When I needed an app that didn't have a shortcut on the desktop or taskbar, I just hit the win key (on the keyboard, I also never click it - so I don't care if the software button is gone) and start typing the name of the app I need.  That usually involves typing the first 4 letters, max, and hitting 'enter'.

    This way of working hasn't changed one bit.  It just looks a little different.


    Sunday, February 19, 2012 1:43 PM
  • I don't see how the removal of the windows button makes any shred of difference, considering what the button does in the WDP...

    How to start desktop apps?

    Several (easy) ways:

    1. clicking shortcuts on the desktop (something almost any application will provide during install by default)

    2. clicking shortcuts pinned to taskbar

    3. clicking shortcuts pinned to metro start screen

    4. hitting windows key on keyboard and type name of the application.

    What's the big deal?


    The big deal is that most people have dozens, if not hundreds, of shortcuts on their Start menu and it's impossible to fit them all on the desktop. 

    Sunday, February 19, 2012 2:37 PM
  • The big deal is that most people have dozens, if not hundreds, of shortcuts on their Start menu and it's impossible to fit them all on the desktop. 

    I'm sorry, but that is simply not true. 

    The majority of people use desktop shortcuts and taskbar pinning, as per telemetry gathered from millions of windows 7 pc's around the world.

    Sunday, February 19, 2012 3:48 PM
  • I'm sorry, but that is simply not true. 

    The majority of people use desktop shortcuts and taskbar pinning, as per telemetry gathered from millions of windows 7 pc's around the world.


    Your second sentence has nothing to do with your first or my post.
    Sunday, February 19, 2012 7:17 PM
  • Huh?

    You said that 'most people' use the start menu.

    I said that windows telemetry gathered from millions of PC's show that this simply isn't true.

    How is that irrelavent to what is being talked about?

    Sunday, February 19, 2012 7:43 PM
  • Huh?

    You said that 'most people' use the start menu.

    I said that windows telemetry gathered from millions of PC's show that this simply isn't true.

    How is that irrelavent to what is being talked about?


    I said that most people have dozens, if not hundreds, of shortcuts on their Start menu and it's impossible to fit them all on the desktop. What does telemetry data have to do with the fact that it's impossible to fit dozens or hundreds of short cuts on the desktop?
    Sunday, February 19, 2012 9:31 PM
  • But those who state that they have hundreds of application which they need to launch
    from the Start Menu, that too is still available. It is available without any registry tweaks
    or downloads to install.

    Simply make a copy of the Start Menu folder and all it's subfolders and then rename that
    copied folder to "Programs".

    Here is the path: c:\ProgramData\Microsoft\Windows\Start Menu.

    Right click on a blank area of the TaskBar and choose Toolbars then New Toolbar..
    Then browse to your newly created "Programs" folder and "Select Folder"

    ----

    Here is the other path: %USERPROFILE%\AppData\Roaming\Microsoft\Windows\Start Menu

    You're forgetting that the existing start menu is actually a merge of two folders - one in %ProgramData% and the other in %AppData%. So your suggestion is incomplete. Far better would be for Microsoft to simply reimplement the start menu on the desktop, and allow users to reach this menu by double-clicking the Taskbar. The start menu has extra links on it's right-side column, of course, and these to should be included in the on-desktop start menu.

    • Edited by Drewfus Sunday, February 19, 2012 11:26 PM
    Sunday, February 19, 2012 11:18 PM
  • But those who state that they have hundreds of application which they need to launch
    from the Start Menu, that too is still available. It is available without any registry tweaks
    or downloads to install.

    Simply make a copy of the Start Menu folder and all it's subfolders and then rename that
    copied folder to "Programs".

    Here is the path: c:\ProgramData\Microsoft\Windows\Start Menu.

    Right click on a blank area of the TaskBar and choose Toolbars then New Toolbar..
    Then browse to your newly created "Programs" folder and "Select Folder"

    ----

    Here is the other path: %USERPROFILE%\AppData\Roaming\Microsoft\Windows\Start Menu

    You're forgetting that the existing start menu is actually a merge of two folders - one in %ProgramData% and the other in %AppData%. So your suggestion is incomplete. Far better would be for Microsoft to simply reimplement the start menu on the desktop, and allow users to reach this menu by double-clicking the Taskbar. The start menu has extra links on it's right-side column, of course, and these to should be included in the on-desktop start menu.


    Well, I'm sure there are workarounds, but my point is that there shouldn't be a need for workarounds.  And my concern isn't so much for myself, but how Windows 8 will be received in the marketplace. The average mortal has no idea what you just said.
    • Edited by I-DotNET Monday, February 20, 2012 1:48 AM Clarify.
    Monday, February 20, 2012 1:01 AM
  • I am going to let you gentlemen continue to argue amongst yourselves. I shall just wait and see what the beta Metro start panel is like.

    If it is not to my liking (i.e. not configurable) then I shall arange the desktop UI to avoid having to go there. I hardly ever use the desktop icons which, more often than not, are covered by open applications (yes, I know about the thingy in the bottom right corner) and mainly use icons on the taskbar.

    In modyfying the UI I have discounted the Quick Launch Bar. At the moment I have 'Programs' and 'Desktop' as toolbars on the taskbar. 'Programs' is the same as the program list in the W7 start menu but, although control panel is there, it does not work.  'Desktop' allows me to go anywhere on the computer very quickly and also has some of the items on the right hand side of the W7 start menu such as username folders and control panel. This control panel works.

    What I may do is customise 3 toolbars such that I have 'system', 'programs' and 'computer'.

    However, until 29 Feb I shall think on these things.

    You may now continue your discussion.

    Monday, February 20, 2012 1:45 AM
  • But those who state that they have hundreds of application which they need to launch
    from the Start Menu, that too is still available. It is available without any registry tweaks
    or downloads to install.
    Simply make a copy of the Start Menu folder and all it's subfolders and then rename that
    copied folder to "Programs".
    But this does not give the items that have been pinned to the Start Menu, which IMO are its most useful feature (or at least the one I use the most). It is possible to pin many more items to the Start Menu than there is room for on the Taskbar.
     
    For me, the solution is to use the desktop itself. It will be interesting to see what the new dektop in the Consumer Preview will provide.
     

    David Wilkinson | Visual C++ MVP
    Monday, February 20, 2012 2:10 AM
  • What does telemetry data have to do with the fact that it's impossible to fit dozens or hundreds of short cuts on the desktop?

    It shows that, no matter how many people are putting shortcuts in the startmenu, the majority of the people aren't using them.

    Also, I'ld add that if people are placing "hundreds" of shortcuts on a single menu, then those people might consider working a bit more efficiently.

    Monday, February 20, 2012 9:15 AM
  • It shows that, no matter how many people are putting shortcuts in the startmenu, the majority of the people aren't using them.

    Also, I'ld add that if people are placing "hundreds" of shortcuts on a single menu, then those people might consider working a bit more efficiently.

    Do you even use Windows?  Your posts make no sense.  Not only do they have nothing to do with what I'm saying, you don't seem to understand how the Start Menu works.  Most shortcuts aren't manually put on the Start Menu by people; they're put there when you install Windows and various applications.


    • Edited by I-DotNET Monday, February 20, 2012 12:59 PM Expand.
    Monday, February 20, 2012 12:56 PM
  • "You're forgetting that the existing start menu is actually a merge of two folders - one in %ProgramData%
    and the other in %AppData%."

    Opps!
    This doofus, thanks you for that reminder Drewfus.
    I'll edit my post to include that fact. It will then closer approximate what the Win7 Start Menu did.
    But I agree that it is still a 'close, but no cigar' approach. There is still no pinning nor search parameters.

    I've no idea why they couldn't have just added one word to the Charms Button on the desktop. StartMenu
    Which would have taken one to days of yore.  So for now, adding a Toolbar is the best we got.

    Upon reading other threads, I concur with the assessment that some developer will place into the STORE
    a $0.99 app that will fully restore the Win7 Start Menu . If 1% of the "500,000,000"  Window users
    purchase it...well...you do the math.  It will probably be coded/uploaded by Steven Sinofsky himself :)

    Happy Coding!
    Windunce

    Sunday, February 26, 2012 4:32 AM
  • you don't seem to understand how the Start Menu works.  Most shortcuts aren't manually put on the Start Menu by people; they're put there when you install Windows and various applications.

    1. I use the start menu in 7 for 1 reason only: the search box to launch applications.  Telemetry shows that the majority of users don't do much else with it.
    2. Yes, I'm aware that installing an application will add a shortcut to the menu.  This is no different in win8 - it will add a shortcut to the same menu, which is now called "metro start screen". 

    So what exactly is the problem here?  You are afraid that there will be icons of ALL your applications on the screen?  This is why you can "unpin" them.

    I'm a software engineer.  I too have a gazillion of applications installed.  From big productivity apps like visual studio to the most dumb tools to convert a bunch of files into another bunch of files, next to games and other forms of entertainment.

    I actually like the new menu a lot better. 

    Before, I had to go find my way through a gazillion of menu hierarchies to find that application I wanted (which I hated, which is why I looked for it in the Programs folder on the C: drive in explorer if I couldn't remember the name).  In Win8, you have a nice "installed applications" list with all executables nicely grouped per suite.  Seems a lot more efficient.

    The only think I feel you could say is that the new start "menu" covers up the whole screen.

    But I feel like you would only need to be there if you have to use an application that you normally never use.  And in that scenario, it's actually nice to have a lot more screen real estate for a big, sorted and comprehensive list of applications, instead of a 5 level hierarchy menu hiding countless applications.

    Sunday, February 26, 2012 12:55 PM
  • you don't seem to understand how the Start Menu works. Most shortcuts aren't manually put on the Start Menu by people; they're put there when you install Windows and various applications._
    You seem to be ignoring another usage of the old Start Menu, which is that you can pin items to it. When I install a new application that I think I will be using a lot, I always pin its main application icon to the Start Menu. For me this is much more natural than going through and unpinning all the icons you do not want on the new Start Screen. I only use "all Programs" for applications that I use rarely. Only very very rarely do I use the Search on the Start Menu (I am primarily a mouse person).
    David Wilkinson | Visual C++ MVP
    • Edited by davewilk Sunday, February 26, 2012 2:20 PM formatting
    Sunday, February 26, 2012 1:21 PM
  • . For me this is much more natural than going through and unpinning all the icons you do not want on the new Start Screen.
    David Wilkinson | Visual C++ MVP

    I can agree to that.  I also feel like it shouldn't pin to the start screen by default.

    There's a nice overview page where all the installed applications are listed per suite.  I wouldn't mind if pinning to start does not happen by default so that I can go into that overview list and pin the apps to wherever I want them to pin (desktop taskbar, metro start screen or even desktop shortcut).

    That would indeed make more sense.

    Sunday, February 26, 2012 7:11 PM
  • So what exactly is the problem here?  You are afraid that there will be icons of ALL your applications on the screen?  This is why you can "unpin" them.

    The problem is that there doesn't seem to be a default way to access all your applications from the Aero desktop.  You have to use Metro even if you don't want to.  I think that Metro looks fine on a phone or a tablet, but bland and boring on a 24" screen.  When I'm on my desktop computer, I anticipate spending most of my time in Aero desktop mode and don't want to use Metro.  I know that I'm not the only one and this decision to remove the Start Menu is going to slower adoption of Windows 8.

    The Aero desktop now has less functionality than it did before, and apparently for no good reason.

    • Edited by I-DotNET Sunday, February 26, 2012 7:34 PM Add.
    Sunday, February 26, 2012 7:28 PM
  • On Sun, 26 Feb 2012 19:28:32 +0000, I-DotNET wrote:

    and this decision to remove the Start Menu is going to slower adoption of Windows 8.

    And I'm amazed at the random people on the Internet who are convinced that
    they know better and can make better sales forecasts than one of the most
    successful companies in history.


    Paul Adare
    MVP - Forefront Identity Manager
    http://www.identit.ca
    BPI: A 1960s term used to describe unmentionable parts of the anatomy, as
    in "you bet your bpi".

    Sunday, February 26, 2012 7:58 PM
  • And I'm amazed at the random people on the Internet who are convinced that
    they know better and can make better sales forecasts than one of the most
    successful companies in history.

    Dude, I predicted the success of the iPhone, Wii and iPad when most analysts were scratching their head.  As for Microsoft, this was their reaction to the iPhone:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eywi0h_Y5_U

    Who turned out to be right?  I'll put my track record against Microsoft's any day of the week.

    Sunday, February 26, 2012 8:04 PM
  • On Sun, 26 Feb 2012 20:04:08 +0000, I-DotNET wrote:

    Dude, I predicted the success of the iPhone, Wii and iPad when most analysts were scratching their head.? As for Microsoft, this was their reaction to the iPhone:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eywi0h_Y5_U

    Who turned out to be right?? I'll put my track record against Microsoft's any day of the week.

    Amazing. Since Microsoft is one of the most successful marketing companies
    in history and you're so much better at it than they are apparently, I'm
    stunned that you deign to grace us mere mortals with your august presence.

    Thanks for the laugh.


    Paul Adare
    MVP - Forefront Identity Manager
    http://www.identit.ca
    Random access is the optimum of the mass storages.

    Sunday, February 26, 2012 8:45 PM
  • I don't think it has anything to do with sales forecasts. In the short term there may be many that prefer to hang onto W7 but installations in computers are mainly OEM so cannot be transferred to new computers. In the longer term it is not going to make any difference. Buy that new computer and WYSIWYG - Windows 8. 
    Sunday, February 26, 2012 8:45 PM
  • For anyone who doesn't know, the removal of the Windows 8 Start Button is no longer just a rumor. Here is a picture from the Windows 8 on ARM video from Microsoft:

    Office 15, Windows 8, and Removed Start Menu Seen in Microsoft Video

    Note: This is a low-quality image because it is a screenshot of a video.


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qvdQAcb0-KE&feature=plcp&context=C3b3ae10UDOEgsToPDskKtPXvNjBrC67X348tjyrAr
    Sunday, February 26, 2012 8:48 PM
  • On Sun, 26 Feb 2012 20:04:08 +0000, I-DotNET wrote:

    Dude, I predicted the success of the iPhone, Wii and iPad when most analysts were scratching their head.? As for Microsoft, this was their reaction to the iPhone:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eywi0h_Y5_U

    Who turned out to be right?? I'll put my track record against Microsoft's any day of the week.

    Amazing. Since Microsoft is one of the most successful marketing companies
    in history and you're so much better at it than they are apparently, I'm
    stunned that you deign to grace us mere mortals with your august presence.

    Thanks for the laugh.


    Paul Adare
    MVP - Forefront Identity Manager
    http://www.identit.ca
    Random access is the optimum of the mass storages.


    I didn't think you'd be able to address the substance of my posts.  Thanks for not disappointing me. 
    Sunday, February 26, 2012 9:32 PM
  • The problem is that there doesn't seem to be a default way to access all your applications from the Aero desktop.  You have to use Metro even if you don't want to. 
    <snip>
    The Aero desktop now has less functionality than it did before, and apparently for no good reason.

    Haa, ok.  The actual problem here is that you see "metro" as a seperate system.  The thing is, once you think about it as "just windows", your problem goes away.

    No functionality was lost at all. It's just presented differently.

    Monday, February 27, 2012 8:44 AM
  • Dude, I predicted the success of the iPhone, Wii and iPad when most analysts were scratching their head.  As for Microsoft, this was their reaction to the iPhone:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eywi0h_Y5_U

    Who turned out to be right?  I'll put my track record against Microsoft's any day of the week.

    Wauw.  And you are posting in this forum instead of reaping in millions of dollars as a high-profile marketing consultant why exactly?

    Some humility would do you good.

    Monday, February 27, 2012 8:49 AM
  • On Sun, 26 Feb 2012 21:32:01 +0000, I-DotNET wrote:

    I didn't think you'd be able to address the substance of my posts.? Thanks for not disappointing me.

    There was nothing of substance in your post to address. To wit:

    "Dude, I predicted the success of the iPhone, Wii and iPad when most
    analysts were scratching their head.? As for Microsoft, this was their
    reaction to the iPhone:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eywi0h_Y5_U"

    1. You're making a claim that you can't substantiate in any meaningful way
    when you state that you predicted the success of those devices.

    2. As far as "most analysts were scratching their heads", the only device
    in that list that really took any of the analysts by surprise was perhaps
    the Wii, and while it sold like crazy for the first year, it has pretty
    much dropped off of the radar and Xbox360 has been eating its lunch, and
    all other consoles for quite sometime now.

    3. Frankly, I don't even think you watched the video you posted. Ballmer
    may have chuckled when asked the question about the iPhone, but he made
    zero predictions about the sales of the device, nor does the video give any
    hint of what any internal Microsoft projections were for the iPhone. A
    couple of chuckles and off the cuff remarks by Ballmer simply don't qualify
    as any kind of prediction by the corporation.

    4. The hubris in your statements is just staggering. If you're so much
    better than all of the other analysts, I'm surprised that you aren't
    running Gartner or IDC or the like by now.

    "Who turned out to be right?? I'll put my track record against Microsoft's
    any day of the week."

    5. "Who turned out to be right?" See above.

    6. You have no track record.

    Look, I've got no problem with folks who post about what they may
    like/dislike or love/hate about Windows 8. I do have a problem with those
    who claim to have a crystal ball and claim to know better than Microsoft
    does as to how Windows 8 is going to be received by the public.


    Paul Adare
    MVP - Forefront Identity Manager
    http://www.identit.ca
    This screen intentionally left blank.

    Monday, February 27, 2012 9:39 AM
  • On Sun, 26 Feb 2012 20:45:57 +0000, d r h wrote:

    I don't think it has anything to do with sales forecasts. In the short term there may be many that prefer to hang onto W7 but installations in computers are mainly OEM so cannot be transferred to new computers. In the longer term it is not going to make any difference. Buy that new computer and WYSIWYG - Windows 8.

    Exactly, and given that Windows 8 is now going to be on more devices and
    more chipsets than ever before, to baldly state that it is going to have
    slow adoption and be a failure is laughable.


    Paul Adare
    MVP - Forefront Identity Manager
    http://www.identit.ca
    An elephant is a mouse with an operating system.

    Monday, February 27, 2012 9:40 AM
  • What about NTFS reparse points? I mean, what if we create a junction point?

    Well this is the world we live in And these are the hands we're given...

    Monday, February 27, 2012 10:08 AM
  • Paul, that's twice in a row that you've ignored the substance of the discussion and resorted to ad hominem attacks.  I don't respond to ad hominem attacks other than to point them out. Have a good day.
    Monday, February 27, 2012 12:53 PM
  • Haa, ok.  The actual problem here is that you see "metro" as a seperate system.  The thing is, once you think about it as "just windows", your problem goes away.


    The Aero desktop and Metro UI are differerent.  The APIs are completely different and the UX is very different.  Even Sinofsky has called this a "bold", "re-imagining".
    Monday, February 27, 2012 1:12 PM
  • Wauw.  And you are posting in this forum instead of reaping in millions of dollars as a high-profile marketing consultant why exactly?

    Some humility would do you good.

    Like Paul, you've resorted to an ad hominen attack rather than address the substance of the discussion.  I don't respond to such attacks other than to point them out. 

    Monday, February 27, 2012 1:17 PM
  • The Aero desktop and Metro UI are differerent.  The APIs are completely different and the UX is very different.  Even Sinofsky has called this a "bold", "re-imagining".

    Different =/= Seperate

    Yes, windows 8 is different from 7.

    Just like 7 is different  from Vista.  And vista different from XP.

    Yes, the difference between 8 and 7 is bigger then the difference between 7 and vista.

    But all of it is windows.  There is no metro on the one hand and desktop on the other.  It's 1 system.  That's also something Sinofsky said, but you're not quoting that part, are you?

    API's have no relevance here btw.  We are talking about user experience, not about application interfaces - that's a developer story, not a user story.

    All this fuzz about a menu which was long overdue for a bold rework...

    I don't get it.

    Monday, February 27, 2012 1:49 PM
  • Like Paul, you've resorted to an ad hominen attack rather than address the substance of the discussion.  I don't respond to such attacks other than to point them out. 

    This is getting way of topic.  But I'm having fun now.

    "An ad hominem, short for argumentum ad hominem, is an attempt to negate the truth of a claim by pointing out a negative characteristic or belief of the person supporting it"  ~wikipedia

    Nobody here is using personal attacks or insults to counter the claims you are making (which are about the start menu and how to boot desktop applications).

    I could include a thousand insults in my posts and they would only qualify as ad hominems if those insults were meant as 'the argument' to make your point invalid.  But that is not the case here.

    We have clearly stated our arguments, without being insulting, demeaning or whatever you want to call it.  I'll even add that we didn't even include any personal attacks on you.  You just seem to think that disagreeing with you is the same as insulting you.

    That's not our problem.

    And I'm done with this thread now. This is going nowhere anyway. 

    Monday, February 27, 2012 1:57 PM
  • Paul, that's twice in a row that you've ignored the substance of the discussion and resorted to ad hominem attacks.  I don't respond to ad hominem attacks other than to point them out. Have a good day.

    You may want to look into what ad hominem really means,it doesn't mean what you think and in any event no one has made any personal attacks against you.
    Monday, February 27, 2012 2:10 PM
  • The Aero desktop and Metro UI are differerent.  The APIs are completely different and the UX is very different.  Even Sinofsky has called this a "bold", "re-imagining".

    Different =/= Seperate

    Yes, windows 8 is different from 7.

    Just like 7 is different  from Vista.  And vista different from XP.

    Yes, the difference between 8 and 7 is bigger then the difference between 7 and vista.

    But all of it is windows.  There is no metro on the one hand and desktop on the other.  It's 1 system.  That's also something Sinofsky said, but you're not quoting that part, are you?

    API's have no relevance here btw.  We are talking about user experience, not about application interfaces - that's a developer story, not a user story.

    All this fuzz about a menu which was long overdue for a bold rework...

    I don't get it.

    Aero desktop and Metro are packaged under one system (Windows 8), but the UX is very different from one another. 
    Monday, February 27, 2012 2:16 PM
  • You may want to look into what ad hominem really means,it doesn't mean what you think and in any event no one has made any personal attacks against you.

    You're criticizing the person making the argument, not the argument itself.  I've made several points, including:
    1) The Start menu in the Aero desktop has been removed.
    2) There doesn't seem to be an easy, default way in the Aero desktop to run all your programs.
    3) Most people have dozens, if not hundreds, of shortcuts on their Start menu and it's impossible to fit them all on the task bar or the desktop. 
    4) The decision to remove the Start Menu is going to slow adoption of Windows 8.

    You ignored all of these points and instead posted, "And I'm amazed at the random people on the Internet who are convinced that
    they know better and can make better sales forecasts than one of the most successful companies in history."  You criticized the person, not the argument.

    You followed that up with "you're so much better at it than they are apparently, I'm stunned that you deign to grace us mere mortals with your august presence."  Again, you criticized the person, not the argument. 

    You followed that up with:

    "The hubris in your statements is just staggering. If you're so much better than all of the other analysts, I'm surprised that you aren't running Gartner or IDC or the like by now." 

    You repeatedly criticized the person, not the argument. 

    Monday, February 27, 2012 2:56 PM
  • The problem is that there doesn't seem to be a default way to access all your applications from the Aero desktop.  You have to use Metro even if you don't want to. 
    <snip>
    The Aero desktop now has less functionality than it did before, and apparently for no good reason.

    Haa, ok.  The actual problem here is that you see "metro" as a seperate system.  The thing is, once you think about it as "just windows", your problem goes away.

    No functionality was lost at all. It's just presented differently.

    Not true. Functionality has been lost. The MFU list has mysteriously disappeared, I can no longer open folders with two clicks, and the Start Screen takes over my entire computer when I want to launch an app. No matter how you look at it, that is lost functionality.
    Monday, February 27, 2012 8:54 PM
  • Haa, ok. The actual problem here is that you see "metro" as a seperate system. The thing is, once you think about it as "just windows", your problem goes away.
     
    No functionality was lost at all. It's just presented differently.
    I agree that if all you used the Start Menu for was to type in the Search Box, then not much has changed.
     
    But if you are a mouse person, the loss/change in functionality is more substantial.
     

    David Wilkinson | Visual C++ MVP
    Monday, February 27, 2012 9:29 PM