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DWT Theme Menu RRS feed

  • Question

  • I want a site Theme Menu that uses DWT (s) to call up a unique CSS for each theme. Absolute MUST: no change of any kind to existing content pages (editing, copies etc - none of that). How to?

    1. No "includes [content edit]";
    2. No change to master.dwt, except to add Theme Menu;
    3. No javascript (which for this task is very slow-moving birth, if not abortion).

    Er ... Jim Cheshire on telephone support some years back mentioned to me something I could not catch up with ... about "compatibility and Windows".

    Theme task is maybe complex, as it is pushing EW into the limits of capability. Certainly, the DWT 'dynamic syle' is very fragile, if strict [unknown here] protocol is not followed by the web designer. Regardless, maybe there's something very simple we've been staring at for years without knowing it. What I am looking for is a Step-By-Step How to make Theme Menu using DWT links in Expression Web.

    Tuesday, June 26, 2012 6:29 PM

Answers

  • I just skimmed this thread and figured for the sake of someone trying to make sense of it from what I gather a stylesheet switcher is what is wanted. You know one of those javascript or server side pull from cookie things that have been around for a dozen years like:

    If scripting scares you there are even downloadable plug n play ones like

    Dynamic Drive DHTML Scripts- Style Sheet Switcher (v1.1)

    However, I'm not sure why I'm bothering to add to this thread but figured that some poor person trying to figure it out might be helped since it is unlikely that OP will benefit.


    Free Expression Web Tutorials
    For an Expression Web forum with without the posting issues try expressionwebforum.com

    Thursday, July 5, 2012 4:02 PM
  • I already answered that in the other thread where you posted about this.

    You don't change the DWT. You change the style sheets. It's not complex, It's not pushing EW to any limits.

    DWT is not fragile; almost every site I manage uses them and I've never broken one yet.


    A call to action:
    What do we want?!
    Time travel!
    When do we want it?!
    That's irrelevant!

    Tuesday, June 26, 2012 6:53 PM
  • No! You do not swap out DWTs!

    What you are talking about is PRESENTATION--different colors, different graphics, and that is all done through CSS. You use a different style sheet, not a different DWT. The styles are not connected to the DWT (unless you have done everything with inline styles, which would be wrong).

    DWTs don't even go on a server. They are DESIGN-TIME; they have no function on the server. By the time the page is posted on the server, the DWT is out of the loop. If you want visitors to select different themes, you'll have to load those pages on the server, and each one will be driven by its own style sheet (but the same DWT, which is back on a desktop computer somewhere.)

    Any page created with a DWT has to be generated before it is loaded up to the server. If you want real interactivity, you'll need an ASP.NET website, in which case, you can't use DWTs, you'd use ASP.NET Master pages.

    My head hurts.


    A call to action:
    What do we want?!
    Time travel!
    When do we want it?!
    That's irrelevant!

    Tuesday, June 26, 2012 9:29 PM

All replies

  • I already answered that in the other thread where you posted about this.

    You don't change the DWT. You change the style sheets. It's not complex, It's not pushing EW to any limits.

    DWT is not fragile; almost every site I manage uses them and I've never broken one yet.


    A call to action:
    What do we want?!
    Time travel!
    When do we want it?!
    That's irrelevant!

    Tuesday, June 26, 2012 6:53 PM
  • Frankly I don't know what you mean by a theme menu.

    If you want pages with the same DWT to have different looks, assign a different CSS to those pages (in an editable area of the <head>).  It's not a "theme menu".  Perhaps you could be more clear on what you want to do.

    I can only say that DWTs are not fragile.  You can certainly do something wrong and break a page, but that's not a DWT fault, it's a user error.

    Tuesday, June 26, 2012 8:27 PM
  • Bill is so diligent that he is unable to look past his folly. The owner of a FP-turned-EW turned "open source" web template mega-site knows exactly what I am asking. Pull the sheets from your eyes, BrightWillow! It is a fascinating site desinger problem. If Microsoft can ace this one (like it has so much else), EW will purchase a huge chunk of market. I was not being idle, including Jim.

    The brilliance behind EW's use of DWT is ingenious globel style inclusion. Now, how to branch that "dynamic" tree into multiple theme nodes using the one master.dwt? Bill had some disasters at first, trying out multiple DWT files linked on the same site. Personally, I never got past disaster zone. Shamed to say, discussion of same waas essentially what Jim was referring to when he specifically (and almost in a whisper, with a long ause) mentioned "compatibility".

    Think of the theme node as a Style Bridge. We need that Style Bridge to relax and allow EW Editor to branch [master.dwt] into a DWT group that can be linked from a site Visitor's browser as a style menu. Mega-template dude gave up on this, becuse it was a compatibility "minefield", and any comback in his field is heavily scripted. Why is Windows making EW DWT Style Bridge [Jim] so difficult?

    For example, yesterday as I was approaching said bridge, EW did a loop, fluttering on my screen and shutting down. An immediate popup stated that Windows 7 is adjusting compatility settings "to protect your information. Windows needs to enable missing functionality in your application, Microsoft Expression Web." Got same popup last month on a Windows installation paired with Adobe's new Photoshop rental system. This Windows installation, no such rental, but installing Microfot Digital Image Pro reulted the same "Microsoft System Agent" crash, with compatibility "adjustments".

    Brand new Intel i7037 GPT system here, so no hardware or OS bugs. All is behaving exactly as intended. Prior to this system, with last year's i5 Intel, the application requiring copmpatibility adjustment was totalled, but not any more [we love apples]! BTW, compatility adjustments are under the skin and cannot be easily tracked (let alone understood) by any but engineers or dedicated experts. It is the same compatibility "wall" that Jim and I were discussing. DWT is a great tool. But where compatibility is even ever-so-delicately nudged, crash, your DWT site is toast. Weird thing is, that a given Windows installation WILL NOT FORGET your site, so pretty much kill any rebuild plans. With certain compatibility issues impacting a damaged site, even a Windows reinstall will not kill whatever it is that Windows uses under-her-skin to "protect your information".

    No complaints about what is, concerning EW and Windows. Just wondering, system and platform developments being such as they are, has any one managed to ace ... a home page menu that allows site Visitors to swap from say a Kindergarten theme to say a Grade 1 or Grade 2 theme, without changeing any page content - just changing background graphics and sounds like talking teacher guidance. Simple DWT mechanics? Should be. Given that at our level we interact with a very fragile DWT dynamic (as we blunder things about), we can really appreciate the need for a very "missing how-to" for the DWT Site VISITOR Theme Selection .

    Love to sip hot chocolate, and read dozens of Bill's go-nowhere's some other time. Just that how-to please.

    Tuesday, June 26, 2012 9:10 PM
  • No! You do not swap out DWTs!

    What you are talking about is PRESENTATION--different colors, different graphics, and that is all done through CSS. You use a different style sheet, not a different DWT. The styles are not connected to the DWT (unless you have done everything with inline styles, which would be wrong).

    DWTs don't even go on a server. They are DESIGN-TIME; they have no function on the server. By the time the page is posted on the server, the DWT is out of the loop. If you want visitors to select different themes, you'll have to load those pages on the server, and each one will be driven by its own style sheet (but the same DWT, which is back on a desktop computer somewhere.)

    Any page created with a DWT has to be generated before it is loaded up to the server. If you want real interactivity, you'll need an ASP.NET website, in which case, you can't use DWTs, you'd use ASP.NET Master pages.

    My head hurts.


    A call to action:
    What do we want?!
    Time travel!
    When do we want it?!
    That's irrelevant!

    Tuesday, June 26, 2012 9:29 PM
  • Mine too! Ouch.

    AFAIK, ASP is one some corporate asteroids floating around in another galaxy. I am home, doing work for community on a Mac-Windows home network, where there is no ASP, nor ever will be, mainly because ... this is home.

    Okay, so presentation. How, with one link, can we change "Presentation [if you like]", from Kindergarten to Grade 1? Rememeber, master.dwt already has a style sheet called up. In EW boxed site templates, that will be ONLY ONE OF style1.css, style2.css, or style3.css. Designers can manually edit master.dwt to change between the three default templates. But there is no site Visitor link to select one of the three CSS.

    How do we [non-ASP] Designers give our little Visitors that CSS choice, so that they can select the Presentation they like?


    Tuesday, June 26, 2012 9:54 PM
  • "How, with one link, can we change "Presentation [if you like]", from Kindergarten to Grade 1? "

    You don't.  A link doesn't do that.  Scripting of some sort (such as an asp.net site with an app_Themes folder and you having written the necessary code to allow users to swap out the themes) would be required, and you already said you didn't want to have to do anything like that (javascript, or other).


    • Edited by KathyW2 Tuesday, June 26, 2012 10:08 PM
    Tuesday, June 26, 2012 10:05 PM
  • "But there is no site Visitor link to select one of the three CSS."

    Right. Because DWTs only work inside Expression Web! They are not a server-based technology, and the visitor only has access to pages on the server through a browser.

    DWTs sole purpose is to speed creation of static HTML pages, ensuring consistent content of common parts of each page--nothing more. And they can only do that inside Expression Web. Dreamweaver's DWTs work the same way. That's all they do.

    You build a page using a DWT, and THEN put the finished page on the server. And once it's posted there, it's done--that's it, that's all it will ever be. If you want interactivity through the visitor's browser, you have to use server-side scripting (or multiple copies of every page that differ in style but not content).


    A call to action:
    What do we want?!
    Time travel!
    When do we want it?!
    That's irrelevant!

    Tuesday, June 26, 2012 10:23 PM
  • What if on the same server, the same site has three separate subsite home pages, each calling up a unique presentation (one of style1.css, style2.css, or style3.css).

    PARENT SITE (root/styles/master.dwt -- root/styles/style.css)
    > CHILD SITE 1 (../sub1/sub1.dwt -- ../sub1/style1.css)
    > CHILD SITE 2 (../sub2/sub2.dwt -- ../sub2/style2.css)
    > CHILD SITE 3 (../sub3/sub3.dwt -- ../sub3/style3.css)

    Or, is a root DWT required (and likewise, a root style presence)?

    PARENT SITE (root/styles/master.dwt -- root/styles/style.css)
    > CHILD SITE 1 (../styles/sub1.dwt -- ../styles/style1.css)
    > CHILD SITE 2 (../styles/sub2.dwt -- ../styles/style2.css)
    > CHILD SITE 3 (../styles/sub3.dwt -- ../styles/style3.css)

    Maybe those single-page subsites could then link all content back to the parent site with a new presentation?

    PARENT SITE (root/styles/master.dwt -- root/styles/style.css)
    > CHILD SITE 1 (../styles/sub1.dwt -- ../sub1/style1.css)
    > CHILD SITE 2 (../styles/sub2.dwt -- ../sub2/style2.css)
    > CHILD SITE 3 (../styles/sub3.dwt -- ../sub3/style3.css)

    Or does the root cascade require an unique delivery?

    PARENT SITE (root/styles/master.dwt -- root/styles/style.css)
    > CHILD SITE 1 (../sub1/sub1.dwt -- ../styles/style1.css)
    > CHILD SITE 2 (../sub2/sub2.dwt -- ../styles/style2.css)
    > CHILD SITE 3 (../sub3/sub3.dwt -- ../styles/style3.css)

    Perhaps, rather than subsite, a unique site on the same or on a different server?

    OR, is the DWT-CSS  [? CSS-DWT] location already proven irrelevant for the Designer and/or Visitor? Forget ASP. How-to HTML please.

    (excuse me ... all ..sub1 links above refer only to ..CHILD folder sub1. sub2, sub3.)
    And yes, Bill and Kathy, to do this prop-erly: four (4) separate editing machines, each with a dervish of Designer and Visitor compatibility tests.
    ("my head hurts")



    Tuesday, June 26, 2012 10:28 PM
  • Okay, one more time...YOU CANNOT USE A DWT ON A SERVER! Ever! They only work inside Expression Web. Inside Expression Web.

    Servers do not interact with DWTs. Browsers don't know what DWT files are. Servers don't know what DWT files are. You don't put DWT files on a server.

    Forget doing this with DWTs.

    HTML pages are static. It makes no difference how you build them--EW, Dreamweaver, or Notepad--HTML pages are static. If you want interoperability, you will have to use ASP.NET or PHP (or possibly javascript for some things).

    If you want HTML sites for 4 grades, you'll have to post 4 COMPLETE versions of each HTML page on the server. You can make them all using a DWT on your own computer and then load the entire thing on the server.

    Just stop beating this dead DWT horse!

    And write in English next time. "...each with a dervish of Designer and Visitor compatibility tests." That makes no sense to anyone.


    A call to action:
    What do we want?!
    Time travel!
    When do we want it?!
    That's irrelevant!

    Tuesday, June 26, 2012 11:18 PM
  • <body>

    <!-- Begin Container -->
    <div id="container">
     <!-- Begin Masthead -->
     <div id="masthead">
      <h1><a href="#">EDVP Test 1</a></h1>
      <h3>Designer technology and Destop vs. Server constraints</h3>
     </div>
     <!-- End Masthead -->
     <!-- Begin Navigation -->
     <div id="navigation">
      <ul>
       <li><a href="default.html">Home</a></li>
       <li><a href="about_me/default.html">About Me</a></li>
       <li><a href="resume/default.html">R&eacute;sum&eacute;</a></li>
       <li><a href="photo_gallery/default.html">Photo Gallery</a></li>
       <li><a href="links/default.html">Links</a></li>
       <li><a href="contact/default.html">Contact</a></li>
       <li><a href="contact/default.html">Kindergarten</a></li>
       <li><a href="contact/default.html">Grade 1</a></li>
       <li><a href="contact/default.html">Grade 2</a></li>
      </ul>
     </div>
     <!-- End Navigation -->
     <!-- Begin content_container -->
     <div id="content_container">
      <!-- Begin Left Column -->
      <div id="column_left">
       <!-- #BeginEditable "content" -->
       <h2>Expression Web's DWT Visitor&nbsp; Presentation Selection </h2>
       <p>insert content here</p>
       <!-- #EndEditable --></div>
      <!-- End Left Column -->
      <!-- Begin Right Column -->
      <div id="column_right">
       <!-- #BeginEditable "sidebar" -->
       <h3>Series 1</h3>
       <p>Use 4 instances of binding to dynamic sstyle etchnology (<a href="discussion">http://social.expression.microsoft.com/Forums/en-US/web/thread/92aa754e-0c07-4ce5-ad1f-abfca9f22d0c">discussion
       link</a>). Series examines DWT subsite behavior. Also, consider
       distinct sites (Series 2).</p>
       <!-- #EndEditable --></div>
      <!-- End Right Column -->
      <!-- Begin Footer -->
      <div id="footer">
       <div id="copyright">
        <p>Copyright &copy; 0000. All Rights Reserved.</p>
       </div>
       <p><a href="default.html">Home</a> | <a href="about_me/default.html">About
       Me</a> | <a href="resume/default.html">R&eacute;sum&eacute;</a> |
       <a href="photo_gallery/default.html">Photo Gallery</a> |
       <a href="links/default.html">Links</a> |
       <a href="contact/default.html">Contact</a> |
       <a href="contact/default.html">Kindergarten</a> |
       <a href="contact/default.html">Grade 1</a> |
       <a href="contact/default.html">Grade 2</a></p>
      </div>
      <!-- End Footer --></div>
     <!-- End content_container --></div>
    <!-- End Container -->

    </body>

    Tuesday, June 26, 2012 11:36 PM
  • Series 2 would involve a distinct site location for the site content. That would be 16x4=64 possible designer environments to test compatibility issues. Microsoft is the experts' shack, so they know how to test these things out. All we can do here is a rather lame local Desktop test. I am proceeding with that now.

    Bill Pearson, but I would rather hands-on testing and reporting back than accept your rather acrid denunciation of Expression Web capability: sometimes we wonder if your comments belong in another forum, say Adobe Experts Talk.

    Someone in this forum is presently hacking my desktop, destructively intercepting EW commands. Whoever that is, please grow up or put your head where the Sun don't shine - that will keep you happily occupied elsewhere [buzz off] a______.


    • Edited by Disabled web designer Tuesday, June 26, 2012 11:50 PM Personal direction following inappropriate Forum activity..
    Tuesday, June 26, 2012 11:47 PM
  • Speak in standard terms, or at least try to define yours.

    Most of what you are saying only makes sense to you. 

    Tuesday, June 26, 2012 11:51 PM
  • Okay, one more time...YOU CANNOT USE A DWT ON A SERVER! Ever! They only work inside Expression Web. ... !


    BINGO! Bill, each instance of the open EW constructs portions of, repeat PORTIONS OF unique server environment, building a unique desktop server relationship with that local website. However they are cataloged as data, each EW website is a unique entity. Therein lies an EDVP solution, we hope. Are you testing, or just blabbing?
    Tuesday, June 26, 2012 11:59 PM
  • Bill, in your 'other' post you mentioned attribute selector:

    target: 

    This mention got me looking at drop-line menu fragment treatments at CSS Play. Your recipe could be moving in the right direction, but the wrong context. Since in virtual (dynamic) terms the drop-line is effecting unscripted CSS-HTML target relationships perfectly in IE, stands to reason, give or take fundamentally now [given new browser hardware and server tech] flawed Internet Explorer selector support. No surprise then that missing selector support is melting into place where it belongs in IE. 

    Schmitt (CSS Cookbook) implements the not: target: duo. This is essentially the framework required to implement EDVP. Since IE flawlessly implements not-target fragments in drop-lines, it can likewise implement DWT fragments in EDVP as a shared commercial and home product platform.

    Thursday, July 5, 2012 3:59 AM
  • I just skimmed this thread and figured for the sake of someone trying to make sense of it from what I gather a stylesheet switcher is what is wanted. You know one of those javascript or server side pull from cookie things that have been around for a dozen years like:

    If scripting scares you there are even downloadable plug n play ones like

    Dynamic Drive DHTML Scripts- Style Sheet Switcher (v1.1)

    However, I'm not sure why I'm bothering to add to this thread but figured that some poor person trying to figure it out might be helped since it is unlikely that OP will benefit.


    Free Expression Web Tutorials
    For an Expression Web forum with without the posting issues try expressionwebforum.com

    Thursday, July 5, 2012 4:02 PM
  • If scripting scares you there are even downloadable plug n play ones like

    Key words: design, team, manifest.

    The concept "pure css" really turns me on. That Dynamic Drive article is definitely in the right direction [in the wrong place] and has got me thinking many times, 'what if EW can do this with a click'. Lazy, no; existing sophistication extended just a tad, yes maybe.

    FP extensions are the backbone of EW's potential as a 'style switch' editor/manager. Not sure if the EW team  would like that "manager" word used here - but if style switching is implemented by designers using DWT technology, any design Team could easily benefit from FP/EW site templates, to manage design. Scripting is entirely unnecessary, when FP extensions and DWT technology manifest style switching.

    Expression Web 4 includes a bunch of neat templates. For me, these are a bold temptation. It would be nice to simply simply add two or more templates together to create different versions of the same pages, accessible to site visitors with an 'appearance menu. You oldies in this forum will recall a site where "dynamic" was applied even before EW1 hit the market. 

    When EW adds a new site to an existing site, it should not automatically add or overwrite exisisting page files: instead EW could option to add just a new style sheet with style switching links in a few boxed templates. Designers can then edit any number of new style-sets in addition to original styles ... and style switching can also be managed using Expression Web.

    Now that DW has adopted DWT technology, and only going about as far as EW4, it really seems time for Expression to implement some sort of style manifest system. "Manifest" might be too industrial sounding for some designers, but like "style switching" it is simply descriptive of the task at hand.

    There are two dimensions to style manifestation: one is carried by the design team using Expression Studio; the other is conveyed to the business and customers using the Expression Web designed human interface. Hooking up style switching in EW's boxed templates will never change style manifestation: hooking up style switching makes EW a heap more powerful as a style manager.

    How do we clumsy mere mortals attampt thsi using the current EW4 boxed product? Thanks all.

    Saturday, July 21, 2012 1:05 AM
  • Why are you asking this again? And why can't you speak plain English?

    The answer to your question is right there is the post above your last one--use a style switcher. There's no reason for EW to include it because there are existing ways to do it. And they are listed above.

    FP extensions are dead. Dead. And good riddance. They were proprietary relics from the days when almost all browsers were IE. No other browser maker is going to support nonstandard, noncompliant junk like FP extensions.


    A call to action:
    What do we want?!
    Time travel!
    When do we want it?!
    That's irrelevant!

    Saturday, July 21, 2012 2:04 AM
  • I just skimmed this thread and figured for the sake of someone trying to make sense of it from what I gather a stylesheet switcher is what is wanted. You know one of those javascript or server side pull from cookie things that have been around for a dozen years like:

    If scripting scares you there are even downloadable plug n play ones like

    Dynamic Drive DHTML Scripts- Style Sheet Switcher (v1.1)

    However, I'm not sure why I'm bothering to add to this thread but figured that some poor person trying to figure it out might be helped since it is unlikely that OP will benefit.


    Free Expression Web Tutorials
    For an Expression Web forum with without the posting issues try expressionwebforum.com

    Well Cheryl, watch out using that word "SERVER" in this discussion. There's folks here real frightened by even the notion...

    Send 'em home, eh. There's always PHP!

    http://codecanyon.net/item/css-style-switcher/150156 $$$$

    https://github.com/justnorris/CSS-Style-Switcher :))))

    http://dev.eyedea.eu/samples/styleswitch-php/ (~o_o~)

    <link rel="stylesheet" href="css/switcher.php?default=mystyle.css" type="text/css" />

    <a href="css/switcher.php?style=style1.css">another style1</a>
    <a href="css/switcher.php?style=style2.css">another style2</a>
    <a href="css/switcher.php?style=style3.css">another style3</a>

    Nice thing about PHP is its auto-friendly with just about any OS deck. And it gets around those paranoid freaks who shut off javascript, media and so on. Anyway, check out the PHP language, so sane some authors casually call it "code", as in... "html"...
    And guess what... Web4 codes perfect for free now, Web Matrix2 is free, and Visual Studio 2012 Express is free!
    Trio 2012 with PHP style switching is a simple machine-based way around DWT, which Bll may agree is going the way of the DoDo bird. ! (what a pity) ! "SIMPLE" because... ?

    Anyway, so we've got this code canyon affair with just one php file and one html insertion... and then we've got github and grow [that sounds funny together] with multiple chunks of code floating around everywhere. You know where I'm going, i think.

    Back to that one-click button (but we need a few of 'em). That would be snippets buttons you can preload with just one chunk of code for each of a collection of snippet buttons... so if you github and grow you've got your bases covered. Ciao!

    Friday, December 28, 2012 5:11 PM
  • Er... we have touched on a wee little few ways here. Bill, nonstandard, noncompliant junk... when you sit down to think about it... that $ound$ like just about every tin can OS on the $helf these days.
    Friday, December 28, 2012 5:18 PM
  • You know where I'm going, i think.

    Oh, I think you're already there! How's the weather in your alternate reality?

    Jim


    'Tis the business of little minds to shrink; but he whose heart is firm, and whose conscience approves his conduct, will pursue his principles unto death. Thomas Paine

    Saturday, December 29, 2012 8:30 PM
  • Kathy, thank you for the call we can always count on. Standards. Read W3 on CSS for 'first word'. Yes, there is no such thing... yet. But the reasons why are deep. Standards reason always seems to revolve around, "Ah, we have this one. So why bother with another?" Which is never 'sense', and always 'determination'!

    But standards evolve, and always around what is "almost there but missing [w3.org on first word styling]". W3 sees attr as the [first word] "escape route" we will eventually see patched in Firefox. DWT is 'almost there' but missing in the way DWT assembles style blocks... because nothing 'DWT' is standardized

    HTML to swap style? No! But additional browser security to enable reliable CSS display? Yes! See your desktop for copy of IE10. All that said, we all see CSS as  a script extension of HTML.

    What does that extension mean? HTML 2.0 standards are alive and well today in every browser on the 'block'. JS 1998 script? Nope. Funny thing about CSS is this. It extends like 'first word', over there at w3.org. We can all expect the same ATTR handling of multiple style sheets from within style sheets, eventually.

    MASTER STYLE
    STYLE SUB [attr1] STYLE SUB [attr2] STYLE SUB [attr3]

    DWT? DWT= a way forward.
    body p:first-letter[attr?
    html body:? #sub1 + #sub2 + #sub3 
    #sub1 {"call" stylegroup1...
    W3 has already decided (as in launched) 'on call' method as integration operator for distinct HTML(CSS) text blocks. Fun forever with advanced CSS3 HTML5 transform coders. Just another sub call for browser programming. How to mesh with standards?
    CSS is almost there, (thanks in some small part to DWT).


    Oh as I was young and easy in the mercy of his means, Time held me green and dying Though I sang in my chains like the sea.


    Sunday, June 23, 2013 2:12 AM