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How to make .Forms stable…? RRS feed

  • Question

  • User65389 posted

    Unfortunately, I don’t think (but hope) that this posting will change things, but I have to write it (the hope dies last).

    Today (2015-05-19), I personally have 25 filled bugs in Bugzilla

    11 of the 25 filled bugs have still the state “New”, the oldest are from 2014-09-30 (that are almost 8 months now, what are ages in this environment). This means (at least in theory), that these bugs are not have be seen by Xamarin but still are in in Bugzilla.

    7 of filled bugs have the state “Conf”. But… what does this mean…? Maybe they are fixed in the meantime..? Maybe they will be fixed in one of the next versions..? Maybe they never will be fixed..?

    5 of the filled bugs has the state “Need” I have added some of the “needed” information’s but the state don’t have changed…

    1 of the filled bugs has the state “Reop”

    If I query Bugzilla for .Forms, there are 543 Bugs showed:

    • 121 with state “NEW”
    • 243 with state “CONF”
    • 6 with state “IN_P”
    • 146 with state “NEED”
    • 26 with state “REOP”
    • 1 with state “ASSI”

    I think (no, I know!) that many of the bugs are solved in the latest version but still “congest” Bugzilla and make it a pain to search for a still reported bug and have a look to the real actual state (which bugs are really still open). This further makes a bad impression for every new developer (no, potential customer!) of Xamarin, if he have a look at bugzilla. Xamarin (really) have the luck, that they have extremely patient (paying) customer that are willing to work for Xamarin for free (testing new versions on all platforms, filling bugs in Bugzilla, helping other members of the community in the forums). B.t.w.: without the help of the community in the forums it would be extremely hard (if not impossible) to be successful in developing with Xamarin.

    But the customers (that’s us :smirk:) also want to see:

    • A clear progress
    • That their work is estimated by Xamarin (at least that the filled bugs are seen and stated in a meaningful time)
    • A clear feedback from Xamarin to the bugs including which bugs are solved in new versions, remove solved bugs in Bugzilla (at least re-state as “Resolved”)

    So… if Xamarin would do this and see their customers as “partners” the actual situation still can be changed to a real win-win-situation.

    Therefore my suggestion (wishes) to Xamarin:

    1. Define a base version to XF (suggestion: the next “stable” version)
    2. Start to clean out Bugzilla:
      • Change the state of bugs to “Resolved”, if you are sure that they are resolved in the “base version”
      • Ask users (that have filled a bug) to check, if it still exists in the “base version” and change the state to “Resolved”, if the bug has gone - otherwise to add a comment “Bug still exists in “base version” (I’m willing to do this for my 25 filled bugs, if Xamarin would ask me for and I can see a progress)
    3. Inform the users by every update, which bugs exactly should be solved in the new version (some of the bugs were mentioned in the past, but far not all)
    4. Give more feedback in the threads to new versions. Some time ago, Jason has gave some more feedback (what was estimated from the community), but that has gone since about a month now)
    5. Give us a “small outlook” (e.g. at least one time per month) what you are working on so that we don’t have to drive the road blind.

    That’s my personal mindset…
    If you have the same mindset… please vote here (so that we have a small chance that things are changed).

    Thanks!

    Tuesday, May 19, 2015 10:00 AM

All replies

  • User19820 posted

    I fully agree with you @FredyWenger. Xamarin Forms has an incredible potential. My impression is, and I'm sorry if I'm wrong, not everyone sees it this way. It's more like "another way, but not the right way". And this is true but it's only because there are current issues. I don't agree that Xamarin Forms is "another way".

    Without going too much in the technical details, I think the Xamarin Forms approach is great, it's powerful, has lot of potential. Most important, it can coexist with "native" approach. In fact Xamarin Forms is all about native! The controls are fully native, it's just that they are constructed in a cross-platform way, which is great. I wish more people realized this.

    Xamarin Forms fills a big gap in cross-platform development. And yes, I am aware of other ways of doing it with other technologies, but the potential is bigger with .NET and tooling.

    Tuesday, May 19, 2015 10:22 AM
  • User91372 posted

    @FredyWenger Same feelings. I feel like Xamarin is very short of hand and they don't have enough man power to solve these bugs. The bugs grow more and more. There is no hope in the near future.

    Tuesday, May 19, 2015 10:30 AM
  • User19820 posted

    I know chances are small, but the right thing to do is make Xamarin Forms open source. But the funny thing is that, even if that happens and people contribute (and they definitely will) I think for Xamarin Form's team this would mean even more work. Because they have to manage the contributions, handle the proposed changes, give feedback, reject \ accept etc. All this beside doing their own developing, fixing bugs, etc

    Tuesday, May 19, 2015 10:36 AM
  • User110710 posted

    +1

    Tuesday, May 19, 2015 10:42 AM
  • User76916 posted

    I feel your pain @FredyWenger. I haven't submitted as many bugs but similar situation in that none have actually being fixed, some just sit in NEW, others in CONF. My approach so far has been file a bug report, accept its there and find a workaround at all costs because Xamarin aren't going to fix it for a long time.

    I can guess what Xamarin are up to now and that's most likely working on the Windows 10 release in time for the estimated release of W10 mobile later this year. Probably a few months after the June Windows 10 release.

    I can see they are working on XamlC, which is good because it's also forcing them to fix up other non-critical errors in Xaml that they could ignore until now such as incorrect schema definitions.

    Jason and most others have gone into hiding for about a month, I haven't see much activity from the Xamarin Forms team, except a few bleeps on Bugzilla and Stephanie on the forums, mainly asking about XamlC, I assume she is assigned to it.

    What I would like to see from the Xamarin Forms team and I think this is very achievable.

    Just tell us what you are working on right now. Don't even tell us end dates as I know you like to keep them secret, as most tech companies do for obvious reasons. Get a Community Manager / Moderator. Talk, so we know you are there at least.

    And spend a little more money with 360Logica to get those bugs cleared out on Bugzilla. And by that I mean deleting duplicates, closing fixed and confirming existing. Fixing them would be a good next step as well but lets get that list cleared up first.

    (fyi I have no contact or relationship with 360Logica, I just notice them on Bugzilla changing the status of bugs, so I assume they are your 3rd party software testing company)

    Tuesday, May 19, 2015 10:45 AM
  • User91372 posted

    @AndreiNitescu Agreed for Xamarin Forms has good potential. Although the quality tastes like a shit, but the Xamarin Forms is the only way for cross-platform development with just one code base of XAML+C#.
    Hope it will get better.

    Tuesday, May 19, 2015 10:46 AM
  • User57869 posted

    Yes, they clearly need more people managing the various tools and communicating with their customers.

    To me it seems like the Xamarin employees stopped reading the XF forum at all in August 2014. The only exception is @TheRealJasonSmith but he also seems to only write (and occasionally read) the release notes. First I thought, that they would focus on bugzilla instead. And my first bug report was handled very quick. But unfortunately the following bugs were not handled at all as Fredy already mentioned. The same can be said about UserVoice. There are some topics there which have already been implemented in version 1.3. That's almost half a year ago. I originally wanted to publish MR.Gestures on the Xamarin Component Store but I couldn't find how to pack a PCL project into it. I sent an email to components@xamarin.com in fall last year. No response yet.

    Tuesday, May 19, 2015 10:47 AM
  • User19820 posted

    If you look to the statistics from Xamarin forum, there's clearly a huge interest in Xamarin Forms. The number of threads and posts in Xamarin Forums is almost as big as for Android and iOS. And Xamarin Forms is just making 1 year (It was released with Xamarin 3 on May 28 in 2014).

    Tuesday, May 19, 2015 10:54 AM
  • User27032 posted

    I totally agree. I might have a large customer soon that I should recommend Xamarin and Forms but I am starting to hesitate a bit as the quality of the tools and Forms is not what they might expect as .NET developers. The silence on the forums lately and the VS extension quality makes me a bit worried. And I just love it when it works so I am a bit sad right now. I need to be confident that I can ship my product when I think it is ready and has quality but the Tools and Forms are stopping me now.

    Tuesday, May 19, 2015 11:15 AM
  • User65389 posted

    Hey... thanks to you all, for posting here :smile:

    @AndreiNitescu:

    Xamarin Forms has an incredible potential. I fully agree, but I think, that a lot of people (like us :smirk: ) have realized this (I think .Forms is a main reason for many (new) customers to go with Xamarin). I have noted exactly what you wrote (forum use) and posted a thread here:

    forums.xamarin.com/discussion/38354/xamarin-forms-on-the-fast-lane#latest

    There is a lot of power in the Xamarin-community that isn't used from Xamarin as it could right now, what I don't understand.
    Like @glucose wrote, I also think, that they don't have enough man power to solve all bugs in the near time. But to clean up Bugzilla with the help of the community, they don't need further specialists - that's primary a question of methodology and can also be done from other stuff.

    Yes, they clearly need more people managing the various tools and communicating with their customers

    Fully agree with @MichaelRumpler (and it should be no problem to find the "people managing the tools and communication with their customers" as they don't have to technical specialist).

    Tuesday, May 19, 2015 11:22 AM
  • User76916 posted

    Or if they could hurry up and get acquired by Microsoft already, then Microsoft resources could be given to Xamarin. :smile:

    And just for the record, I still love Xamarin Forms and want to come up with ways to help the team progress the product forward while keeping the community happy.

    Tuesday, May 19, 2015 11:40 AM
  • User19820 posted

    @AdamP I really don't want to start an off-topic thread but why would Xamarin has to be acquired by Microsoft? I don't think an acquisition automatically solves all problems. Sometimes is not even a good thing. It doesn't matter who invests in Xamarin. The investors put their money and then wait and expect to earn good money. What I am trying to say is that there has to be a good reason why Microsoft would buy Xamarin. Xamarin should as well be able to find his own funding. Acquisition is not always a good idea.

    Tuesday, May 19, 2015 12:02 PM
  • User76916 posted

    @FredyWenger - I just got a response from Xamarin that might be of interest in terms of NEEDINFO. Apparently when you add more information, you need to personally set the status back to NEW to get it looked at again.

    http://forums.xamarin.com/discussion/comment/125236

    Tuesday, May 19, 2015 12:04 PM
  • User76916 posted

    @AndreiNitescu - With the Visual Studio 2015 integration of Xamarin along with their immensely close partnership, the acquisition in my opinion is inevitable. However I could be wrong, I just think its a very strong possibility.

    Acquisitions generally aren't good at the start when the teams start combining but Microsoft has a lot of resources behind the scenes and online that could certainly help, especially with their new direction and momentum under Nadella, with Mobile First, Cloud First being their primary focus. If MS apps then also use Xamarin, just like how they currently use their own technology (e.g. Visual Studio internally) it gets a lot of visibility and traction within the MS dev teams.

    Tuesday, May 19, 2015 12:09 PM
  • User65389 posted

    @AdamP: Ohh... that's nice - I'm sure that all users know that, as it is logical (and I think, the related Xamarin staff receive automatically a mail, if a user add a new information) :flushed: But thanks for the information :smile:

    Tuesday, May 19, 2015 12:11 PM
  • User19820 posted

    @AdamP Xamarin already had support for integration in Visual Studio. So I wonder how Microsoft helped with that. As far as I remember Xamarin actually acquired a small team to maintain and work on Visual Studio extension.

    Also, note that Microsoft has several integrations in Visual Studio, that doesn't mean they are going to or even interested to "acquire" in one way or the other any of the technologies. One simple example is Microsoft's Android emulator or the surprising stuff Microsoft demonstrated at Build with opening and compiling native iOS projects in Visual Studio 2015 for Windows 10 (I burst out laughing when I saw that demo).

    Tuesday, May 19, 2015 12:18 PM
  • User76916 posted

    @AndreiNitescu - What I mean is Visual Studio mentions Xamarin, not Xamarin has an extension for Visual Studio.

    http://blog.xamarin.com/build-2015-sessions-tests-and-vs-2015/

    See "Xamarin Integration in Visual Studio 2015" on that post.

    Tuesday, May 19, 2015 12:24 PM
  • User19820 posted

    @AdamP I know what you mean. What I'm saying is that I don't see any tight collaboration between MS and Xamarin which looks like an imminent acquisition. MS added a lot of crazy things in Visual Studio 2015.

    Tuesday, May 19, 2015 12:27 PM
  • User89714 posted

    +1 for this.

    Whilst I am still persevering with Xamarin.Forms, and am progressing with my app (largely by divorcing it more and more from bits of XF that do not work as expected, and from dependencies that get broken by updates), it does feel like Xamarin are overloaded. It feels like their customer-facing people are at so many conferences and developer days that they do not have time/energy to work on stabilising the product. The back room team seem to be so busy on trying to keep up with new kit, o/s versions etc, that they also do not have time to spend on stabilisation. Xamarin.Forms seems the most important part of the Xamarin strategy - not just allowing C# to be used on iOS and Android, but having 90+% of code shared across iOS, Android, WinPhone and WinStore. That WinStore addition should be a game changer for the enterprise market, but if Xamarin forget to emphasise the Windows side of things, and fail to concentrate on Xamarin.Forms, they could easily go the way of Betamax.

    As others have mentioned, I would love to be able to recommend XF to other users and to potential clients, but right now I don't, as there are too many issues, whether technical, process, or in communication with customers.

    Whilst learning XF, I have also been learning Android and iOS. At the end of my current project, I do not know whether I would continue with XF, or simply go to native development, Cordova etc.

    We need not just more reliability, but more insight into what is going on. What is the relationship with 360logica re. Bugzilla, what SLA is in place with 360logica, what is the prioritisation process used by Xamarin etc.

    Tuesday, May 19, 2015 2:25 PM
  • User98295 posted

    Echoing what a lot of people have said, a little more communication from Xamarin would go a long way here. Xamarin.Forms is solving a very difficult problem, and I don't think anyone is surprised or particularly upset that there are issues and bugs. We'd all just like a bit more assurance that we (and our substantial licensing fees) aren't being ignored.

    As an example, take a look at the iOS forum, where @BrendanZagaeski has been active and extremely helpful on the board during the fallout from a Xamarin.iOS release that caused issues for quite a few users.

    Tuesday, May 19, 2015 2:29 PM
  • User113267 posted

    I am in the process of deciding to go ahead or not with XF. I still think it is very promising but looking at all the complains and bugs lately, I'm not sure I should go with it.

    It seems we may have to wait a few more versions to be able to use XF to its full potential. By the look of things, it seems XF got more unstable since v 1.2. Adding more functionality to it resulted in more problems. I would like to know if anybody has been able to release production products with the latest versions

    Tuesday, May 19, 2015 2:36 PM
  • User14244 posted

    XF is great. If you need to push the limits of interface design etc, go native Xamarin.

    Xamarin Forms allows you to write quick simple interfaces. Checkout https://www.syntaxismyui.com/ for some tips.

    I think some people on this forum are trying to push the limits of XF or maybe don't understand how to use XF. I have always had an issue with the lack of documentation.

    But, I seem to be pushing out an app a month. Very happy with XF. I ran into a few minor bugs but was always able to work around them with a little extra code.

    The Xamarin staff has probably backed away from the forums because of the constant attacks and the "PLEASE LOOK AND FIX THIS NOW" posts that are not very productive. I love the "THIS SHOULD BE OPEN SOURCE NOW" comments.

    I think Xamarin is doing a good job. Could they be doing better, sure, so could everyone else if you throw a ton of money at it. XF has evolved greatly since its first release. If you don't see that I am not sure what to tell you. I just wish they had a roadmap so we can get an idea of whats coming.

    Tuesday, May 19, 2015 2:53 PM
  • User65389 posted

    @JSCote.7213:
    I am (hopefully!) nearby to release our app (and it is not a "small" one).
    But there are a few bugs that have to be fixed before from Xamarin...
    It's not as worse as my first posting (with the bugs) suggest - therefore I have posted this thread...
    There is a lot of garbage in Bugzilla right now and my suggestion is to go forward, remove the garbage (with GC :smile:) and focus on the remaining problems.

    Tuesday, May 19, 2015 2:54 PM
  • User58997 posted

    @JSCote.7213 it depends on the complexity of your app, I'have been able to go in production (iOS and Android) with XF 1.4.2, but my app is very simple : MasterDetail Page with a NavigationPage in it.

    From my experience with XF, right now I'd not recommand to build big app with it since it still too buggy.

    That's the whole point of this thread, XF is so promising that it is very frustrating to see so many bugs that prevent us to build nice shiny apps

    Tuesday, May 19, 2015 2:59 PM
  • User66290 posted

    @FredyWenger I absolutely agree that Bugzilla should be cleaned up and reflect reality, otherwise it just makes life difficult. I also agree that stability is hugely important. To my mind XF is "the goose that could lay the golden egg" for Xamarin, but it is not getting sufficient resource or attention. In addition with Xamarin pushing their own automated test cloud product it's about time Xamarin 'ate their own dog food'* by building up a wide library of test cases for XF and making sure a release passed the tests before pushing it out.

    @breps I don't think it's unfair to expect a bug logger to be kept clean, bugs to get fixed or for the framework to perform as advertised. Well done to you though in pushing out an app a month!

    *Thanks to Steve McConnell for that great expression!

    Tuesday, May 19, 2015 3:18 PM
  • User65389 posted

    @SimonHewerdine: Thanks for your posting here... but who is Steve McConnell...?

    Tuesday, May 19, 2015 3:26 PM
  • User14244 posted

    @SimonHewerdine , I never stated that the bugzilla is not a mess. I'd have to agree with everyone on that. I also have had bugs sitting for over 6 months. I just fixed them on my own with extra code.

    IE: Android button text alignment. Windows Phone Display Alert does not await...

    Tuesday, May 19, 2015 3:31 PM
  • User66290 posted

    @FredyWenger - he has written several great books including "Code Complete" - a bible of software construction.

    Tuesday, May 19, 2015 3:34 PM
  • User66290 posted

    @breps - yes you are right - sorry about that!

    Tuesday, May 19, 2015 3:41 PM
  • User65389 posted

    @SimonHewerdine: Ahh... thanks... It looks like that I have to be ashamed that I did not know the Name :smirk:

    Tuesday, May 19, 2015 3:42 PM
  • User113267 posted

    Thanks all for the comments. My app is not that small but since it is a side project, it will take me a little while to complete, I might be able to wait, or absorb new XF versions as they become available. Hopefully, I won't suffer the same problems as Fredy with each upgrade.

    Tuesday, May 19, 2015 3:56 PM
  • User12403 posted

    There really isn't much excuse to the state of Bugzilla. As far as the state of XF I think part of the problem is people believe it is something it isn't. It's a tool to make simple applications in terms of UX. Stick to the basic (limited) functionality and you will be fine, in most cases when you don't run into nasty bugs, but try to create something fancy and you will crash eventually. You can extend XF with custom rendererers and even native pages but there is too much going on in the background that will eventually interfere and the app will not work as it would if the project had no XF reference.

    Simply put some projects are perfect for XF, some are not and then the rest somewhere in between. The bottom line is if you need it quick then start with XF. If you have a long term plan and the UX needs to impress then go with clean MVVM design and native UI layer.

    With the resources Xamarin has it is unrealistic to expect this gap to close anytime soon. I would rather have them fix the existing bugs (as there are more than plenty of them) than introduce more features.

    Tuesday, May 19, 2015 6:16 PM
  • User112992 posted

    XF is really close to being a good base / framework for cross-platform, IMO. I'm happy with the design at large; lowest common denominator controls, plus custom renderers for adding some platform-specific flair. That's all cool! The problem is the bugs.

    Stop introducing features, and concentrate on the dang bugs! I know its boring, but your product is going to get itself killed if you don't stomp these out ASAP. Some of them are just unacceptably easy to encounter, to the point where I assume it's XF rather than my own code when something doesn't work. That's not healthy.

    Tuesday, May 19, 2015 7:28 PM
  • User102173 posted

    I agree with the other comments. IMHO, if a company is charging big license fees for a product, I expect it to work and I expect it to work wonderfully. I don't buy into the argument about how difficult it is to make a cross-platform UI framework and Xamarin is accomplishing that hence the bugs. If we are willing to accept that, then why don't we say the license fees should be significantly discounted UNTIL the product is stable? That only seems fair to me.

    Wednesday, May 20, 2015 1:58 PM
  • User76049 posted

    @SKall

    I'm led to believe that their focus for the remainder of this year is making what's there stable. The lack of communication is frustrating though regardless of the size of the company. Forms does deserve to succeed, the team is expanding so fingers crossed. Bugzilla is a bit of joke though.

    Wednesday, May 20, 2015 2:14 PM
  • User34645 posted

    @Mark.9492 the licensing argument could be made if Xamarin.Forms was the main product.

    Wednesday, May 20, 2015 2:52 PM
  • User11167 posted

    First, I want to thank @FredyWenger for routinely going the extra mile here, with patience and professionalism, trying to make the Xamarin.Forms experience better for everyone. (Fredy, if you are ever in the San Francisco Bay Area, let me buy you a beer. :smile: )

    @NMackay I certainly hope so, though a natural temptation in any software organization under schedule pressure is to lower standards somewhat in order to make the statistics look better (vs. the harder work of making the actual outcomes better). A four-month old bug of my own (a 100% crash bug, no less) was summarily marked RESOLVED/ANSWERED yesterday with a response that evoked another in semi-recent memory (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=You%27re+Holding+It+Wrong). The bug was filed in part as a test---a softball thrown not only because of the defect itself, but also as a means to measure expected throughput on future issue resolution and organizational maturity. These are things any sane developer would want to have confidence in before adopting a new dependency risk. At first, things looked promising---an prompt third-party bug triage activity for reproduction and the gathering of any additional required information (a good best practice, Xamarin deserves credit there). Then the bug sat for four months (better than Fredy's eight months, surely, but not great). Then it was just dismissed outright with an answer that indicates crashes are apparently acceptable by design (which is worse). But, hey, the open bug counts went from 523->522 or something, so I guess that's progress...

    I'd suggest that everybody keep an eye on their own bug lists (resolved issues don't show up by default---though you can alter your search criteria to see them) and make sure nothing is swept under the rug. Deferrals, demotions to "feature request" where applicable, etc., are certainly expected at times. But no true defect that a customer took the time to document and file should be ignored. Re-open them. Re-emphasize why they matter.

    Wednesday, May 20, 2015 3:06 PM
  • User80438 posted

    It makes absolute sense that Microsoft aquire Xamarin this year. Microsoft have a huge emphasise in Cross platform right now. They have the man power and they have the finance, and let's face it this is a .Net product! This seems to be the crux of the problem for Xamarin. I do think that Nat Friedman and Miguel de Icaza are holding on to their precious Xamarin at the detriment of it's future. The product funding just doesn't work. It's way to expensive, which puts most people off, yet that doesn't seem to raise enough finance to deliver a quality product. The finance needs to come from another source. The sooner it is aquired by Microsoft the better. Scrap the crazy expensive Xamarin licensing fees and have it available under the MSDN subscription.

    Wednesday, May 20, 2015 3:08 PM
  • User65389 posted

    @plynkus:
    Thanks for your posting here (so I can see, that my effort has some sense... :) )
    I try to remember the beer, if I am in SF in the future (else it would be an expensive beer, as I came from Switzerland :smirk: )

    If Xamarin would overtake my suggestion (in the first posting), I’m sure, that the "bug-counter" would be halve (or more) in no time (as there is a lot of garbage in now). If they further would provide a full list of (in theory) solved bugs with every update and - maybe (if that is not to much :smirk:) - also send a mail to the user that have filled the bug (they have the mail addresses) with the request to please retest the (solved) bug, this also would not be wrong.
    For me, it’s important, that a proper “restart-process” (including a proper information to the restart-process itself) will be done in the near future.
    I - e.g. - have heard the first time, that the user has to change the state, after he has added new information’s to a bug with state “NEED” (like @AdamP wrote on the first page of this thread)... what I don't understand b.t.w..

    Further, I would not be wrong to give us a small update to what is going on right now, as there is silence since the last update a month ago.
    Therefore, I have mentioned Jason in the last update-thread: https://forums.xamarin.com/discussion/38729/xamarin-forms-1-4-3-pre2-released/p4

    Wednesday, May 20, 2015 4:07 PM
  • User98240 posted

    A part of the company, xamarin.forms in this case, does not answer one month on the forums and you guys go crazy. As a sidenote: The rest of xamarin has been very active on the android or insights forum.

    Also it would be great if you could stop spreading rumors, there are NO signs at all microsoft will be buying xamarin. Stop perplexing forum lurkers. Besides that acquiring xamarin does not fit into the current ms politics investing more time into open source.

    What i do not understand is that one day you guys expect instant releases and as soon as xf dishes out releases quickly you start to complain the next day about bad quality. Now its the opposite and you complain again. How about wait and see what happens? Maybe they changed their QA process and it takes more time to release new versions?

    What i can understand is the fact that Xamarin should be more transparent, but this is probably by 95% chance not something jason or anyone else visiting the forums can decide. We can and should voice that but without the "i know it better tone".

    And please do not be presuming and try to explain a multi million company how they should organize themselves to get a better workflow. There are things and processes going on most of us dont have any idea about.

    Wednesday, May 20, 2015 9:59 PM
  • User112992 posted

    Indeed. I've seen lots of activity in bugzilla, which is exactly what they should be doing. There is no indication that progress on XF has stalled, other than a lack of forum posts. Relax!

    Wednesday, May 20, 2015 10:46 PM
  • User113267 posted

    In the end, I think people are just eager to get a version that is more stable. That is a testimony of how important this product is to the community. And that is a vocal community, which Xamarin should be grateful for.

    I haven't started yet on my product and I'm slightly worried that I will spend a little too much time fighting bugs that aren't really mine. I did a prototype a few months ago and I didn't really run into any issues like that so I'm still hopeful it won't be too painful.

    Thursday, May 21, 2015 12:25 AM
  • User80438 posted

    @Ota Mares

    As part of the company you outght to be less critical of the developer community and be more understanding. Xamarin does not answer for 1 month against an (un)Stable build which is shocking. There are many of us out here stuggling to develop with XF right now, and you seem to think we are just going crazy!

    Yes MS are investing more time in open source, as well as cross platform technlogies. Humm, makes you think what the future is for Xamarin doesn't it.

    Thursday, May 21, 2015 9:55 AM
  • User98240 posted

    jonathan for clarifications :) i am not involved with xamarin at all! just a happy customer, same as you.

    Thursday, May 21, 2015 9:59 AM
  • User80438 posted

    I see. Sounded like you were as you appeared to have inside information regarding MS and Xamarin. You must be the only happy customer out there right now.

    Thursday, May 21, 2015 10:06 AM
  • User258 posted

    @Ota I think you're of beat here :)

    Please don't make this into to a "for or against Xamarin" issue. That is insulting to the many who dedicate their time to help Xamarin out in these troubled times.

    The XF ride has been bumpy to put it mildly. This is not the first time XF and Xamarin have taken some well-deserved heat. If XF had a beta tag on it, that would not be ok. But it does not - so it is.

    XF was released way to soon, and ever since paying developers has been caught in the cross-fire. It is only fair that they are permitted to let out some steam.

    Oh, and forum lurkers should be perplexed and warned. Wait a bit before diving in!

    Thursday, May 21, 2015 10:12 AM
  • User76049 posted

    @void

    I agree wholeheartedly with those comments.

    Thursday, May 21, 2015 10:22 AM
  • User80438 posted

    Yes I agee, although I don't think we are so much as letting off stream. We are genuinely trying to reach out to help and get a stable release. X should be right on the button with collaborating, but 1 month on and nothing.

    Thursday, May 21, 2015 10:27 AM
  • User65389 posted

    @void: + 1 - well said

    Thursday, May 21, 2015 10:27 AM
  • User115102 posted

    Is it possible to do MVVM with named properties the same way as we do with XAML with native iOS/Android UI?

    Thursday, May 21, 2015 10:57 AM
  • User80438 posted

    Not sure I understand the question, or whether it's relevent to this thread. You don't use Xaml for native iOS/Android. But in Xamarin Forms you definately can, and should, use MVVM and bind to properties.

    Thursday, May 21, 2015 11:25 AM
  • User115102 posted

    Let me rephrase :-)

    I am using Xamarin Forms for a project. I am using MVVM and binding to properties and all that jazz. If I need to convert to native iOS/Android UI because of the Xamarin Forms bugs, I am wondering if I can use the same view models and bind the native UI to this.

    Thursday, May 21, 2015 11:34 AM
  • User76049 posted

    @JahnOttoAndersen

    MVVMCross and MVVM Light will allow you to use an MVVM approach in native, it's not as nice IMO but it's there as an option.

    Thursday, May 21, 2015 11:40 AM
  • User115102 posted

    @NMackay

    Thanks Norman! Hopefully I will not need to abandon Xamarin Forms, but I'll check it out :)

    Thursday, May 21, 2015 11:42 AM
  • User76049 posted

    @JahnOttoAndersen

    I'm hanging in there too, I'd rather use the Forms/XAML approach coming from a WPF background and it's very close despite the issues.

    Thursday, May 21, 2015 11:44 AM
  • User80438 posted

    Humm, interesting. Yeah here's a link.

    https://github.com/MvvmCross/MvvmCross/wiki/Tip-Calc-A-Xamarin.iOS-UI-project

    Even more interesting that you're considering this instead of XF. Might take a look myself.

    Thursday, May 21, 2015 11:44 AM
  • User76049 posted

    @jonathanyates

    There is some info on MVVM Light here as well http://www.galasoft.ch/presentations/presentationdetails.cshtml?name=2015005

    Thursday, May 21, 2015 12:32 PM
  • User114483 posted

    My (many months old) bug was confirmed this week (and other people reported the same), so I'm sure Xamarin is working on X.F. But I understand the frustration of not knowing what's happening.

    I think Microsoft is giving a good example of a company trying to be very upfront about their work and direction (esp with Windows 10). It isn't perfect (people still complain a lot, Microsoft blunders from time to time, etc), but overall, it seems to be working great for them.

    Friday, May 22, 2015 4:42 PM
  • User65389 posted

    @SilverBleach : Thanks for your posting here and redirect this thread to the base theme :wink:
    I also have seen some actions to my filled bug's and that the most important for me is confirmed now and has the state "In Progress" now, what let me hope... :smiley: I also see some progress in the (also very annoying) theme with the VS-Integration regarding debugging here:

    forums.xamarin.com/discussion/41844/my-findings-after-test-if-the-newest-xamarin-vs-integration-software#latest

    So... maybe our postings are nevertheless noted by Xamarin and have some positive impact - who knows... :smirk:

    Friday, May 22, 2015 7:52 PM
  • User13 posted

    Hello Xamarin.Forms community,

    I wanted to address some of the questions on this thread, and tell you where we are headed.

    Short version: the team is currently focused on fixing known defects and triaging the existing bugs that have been filed against Xamarin.Forms. The goal is to address the defects that our users are encountering, and then switch gears back to feature development.

    Longer version: we heard from our community that there was a strong interest in supporting WinStore Apps as a target platform so we devoted some of our efforts to make sure that Xamarin.Forms could be used to target WinStore. This took away some of our cycles to devote to the defect fixing part of developing Forms. Additionally, we had been doing some work to improve performance of data bindings (XamlC referenced above) and improving some of the user experience across platforms. Both filed as bugs/long-term problems, but technically not defects.

    A couple of weeks ago, we refocused the effort. We put the performance work, Win10 work and some new controls on hold and switched to fixing defects. The first step of that process was triaging our bugs so we can determine which ones are defects, which ones are feature requests and figure out just what kind of issues people were running into.

    As we triage the bugs, we are fixing the bugs, and preparing a new release of Xamarin.Forms.

    We are working to get updates to Xamarin.Forms quickly to you guys. I am guessing that we will have a package with many of these fixes in about two to three weeks (when we ship our 2nd service release to the platform).

    Miguel

    Saturday, May 23, 2015 1:04 AM
  • User76916 posted

    Thanks @MigueldeIcaza - Just knowing what you are up to and an estimated time of the next update is very much appreciated.

    Saturday, May 23, 2015 3:26 AM
  • User12403 posted

    @MigueldeIcaza thank you! Bugs getting ignored in Bugzilla was leaving a bad impression of the process and I am glad that is now being addressed. I have noticed activity on the bugs I have filed and cc'ed to so kudos to Xamarin for reacting to our feedback on the matter.

    We are battling an issue that was marked as a feature on XF, disabled layouts passing through touches to children, anyone else having the same issue and think there would be enough demand to request it as a feature (not to disable children but to make the layout ignore touch events)? This is causing a lot of extra code/work for us and it is issues like these that are making us question if it was wise to go with XF route as the time we have saved on native UI layers is being spent on XF workarounds.

    Saturday, May 23, 2015 2:12 PM
  • User89714 posted

    @MigueldeIcaza - Thanks for the update Miguel. Is there any way of making the activity more visible on an on-going basis? For example, if you maintain a backlog of the items being worked on for a cycle, could that be made visible? If there are estimates etc on those items, that would be even better, but just knowing what is being worked on within a cycle gives us some indication of whether we need to spend time investigating workarounds ourselves.

    Thanks,

    John H.

    Saturday, May 23, 2015 2:44 PM
  • User65389 posted

    Thanks @MigueldeIcaza for your feedback here :smiley:

    Saturday, May 23, 2015 7:49 PM
  • User90084 posted

    @MigueldeIcaza The Xamarin team's efforts don't go unnoticed. If some of us, at least myself, seem a bit impatient, it is that I think we can see the true value behind this platform. I'm not simply talking about Xamarin.Forms. I'm talking about your original idea, which in and of itself is quite impressive. What's impressive, at least for me, is that you looked at something many people said was impossible, and you found them not entirely correct.

    What you created is something that has the potential to greatly amplify the economy, and not simply for us developers. The frustrating part is that it feels like that in order to be a part of the 'club', we have to submit more, immediately, than any bean counter would give us mere developers. That makes it extremely difficult, knowing the state of development (roughly).

    While I'll try not to be too philosophical, here, I can't help but to think about some things I was taught, when I was younger, about economics. Others may not agree, but I'd hope if they don't, they wouldn't be quiet; we all need to be heard (thus the forums):

    A business that refuses to take a short-term loss, for a long-term gain is stealing. That sounds harsh, sure. Although, I think you're the kind of person that would recognize it for what it is; something to think about. Sometimes, it makes sense to make a calculated risk, and give people keys that they may not otherwise normally be given, if say everything was stable. I think if people felt like, "Hey, Xamarin really wants us to be successful with their product!" you'd find that you have a much deeper loyalty than you'd ever be able to create, if you simply go about it as if this were all business as usual. There's nothing usual about this product, in my opinion. There is so much potential here, I'm not even sure if I could easily put it with any fewer words.

    Sunday, May 24, 2015 1:34 AM
  • User90084 posted

    @plynkus

    I'd suggest that everybody keep an eye on their own bug lists (resolved issues don't show up by default---though you can alter your search criteria to see them) and make sure nothing is swept under the rug. Deferrals, demotions to "feature request" where applicable, etc., are certainly expected at times. But no true defect that a customer took the time to document and file should be ignored. Re-open them. Re-emphasize why they matter.

    I have to second this one. Actually there are a number of really great points in this thread, altogether. This one I think is one of the more important things to consider. I can't expect that Xamarin could keep up with all our problems, as if they were in our shoes (they're not exactly, but pretty similar shoes).

    Sunday, May 24, 2015 1:48 AM
  • User40225 posted

    +1 to what @FredyWenger expressed. Totally agree.

    Sunday, May 24, 2015 10:04 AM
  • User76049 posted

    @MigueldeIcaza

    Thanks for the update, it's much appreciated and reassuring.

    Sunday, May 24, 2015 6:45 PM
  • User13 posted

    I think we can work on our communications a bit more - not just for Forms, but for the whole product.

    We are starting a Release blog, where we will talk about the specific features that are coming up, and the focus will be on the specifics of each component of the stack.

    Monday, May 25, 2015 1:02 PM
  • User65389 posted

    @MigueldeIcaza:

    As you can see by the more then 1'600 views within 6 days on this thread, this is an important theme for many users and as you can see by the likes to your comments, any feedback is highly appreciate by the community :wink:
    So finally thanks to you, to hear our voice :smiley:

    Monday, May 25, 2015 7:03 PM
  • User67129 posted

    +1

    Thursday, May 28, 2015 7:53 AM
  • User65389 posted

    It seems, as Xamarin right now really spend power in the process to clean-out Bugzilla (I have received various state-changed-mails and additional requests from Bugzilla).

    Although Xamarin don’t have requested me (as I suggested in the my initial-posting in this thread), I have done a
    complete review of all my already filled bugs:
    - Retest of the bug (if not clear that it has gone or still exists)
    - Review of the bug-description

    If the bug has gone, I have added a comment like:

    As I don't see this bug in the latest XF-Version, I set this bug to resolved myself to help Xamarin by the clean-out of Bugzilla.

    and set the bug to “Resolved” myself.

    If also other users have posted (like “same problem here” or similar), I have posted a new message, that the bug is solved for me and the other users please should also confirm or ad a new comment (but I this case, I don’t set it to “Resolved”).

    To the still existing bug’s, I have added a comment “still exits in the latest XF-Version" or similar.

    So I was able to “bring down the counter of “my” bugs from 25 to 11 (and also bring down the overall counter for 14).

    Maybe you also can (and will :smirk: ) do that, so we can force the clean-out of Bugzilla what will help us all to go forward faster..? :innocent: :sunglasses: :innocent:

    Thursday, May 28, 2015 12:29 PM
  • User6166 posted

    Its not just that these are bugs in a new system... we bet our farm on Xamarin.Forms and have over half a million dollars riding on the fact that our app has to work. Its nice to see Windows 10 efforts, but not if it means .Forms is not stable enough to be production ready. I understand its new, but at this point it has to be stable enough to use, otherwise its really still a beta product.

    Thursday, May 28, 2015 1:52 PM
  • User65389 posted

    @NilsLahr:
    Yes, and therefore we all (that have filled bugs) can help (on a constructive way), to make .Forms more stable in an shorter time when we help to do the house-keeping in Bugzilla, so that only the really open bugs remains :sunglasses:

    Thursday, May 28, 2015 2:16 PM
  • User89714 posted

    Although, as somebody who has spent a chunk of his working life doing Quality Management, test automation etc., I always worry about bugs that "go away" (my words) rather than being consciously fixed. My experience is that the majority of bugs that "go away" are really just hidden by another change, so bubble up again at a later date. So, whilst it is in everybody's interest to ensure that Bugzilla is kept up to date, I would be wary of marking anything Resolved without one of the people with access to the Xamarin source code actually saying they have done something to fix it.

    Thursday, May 28, 2015 3:15 PM
  • User65389 posted

    @JohnHardman:
    That's correct principally and should not be necessary...

  • But, I think, that:
    • the from the user as "Resolved" bug's are not deleted in the system automatically and also can be reactivated (as there are some bugs with state "Reopend" in Bugzilla) and further (hopefully) will be reviewed from Xamarin, before there are deleted persistent
    • if I have ("stone-old") bug's filled from September 2014, that still have the status "New" and I know, that I don't have this problem since months, it is not false to set the state to resolved (especially as normally also ("stone-old") version-information's are included to the bug-description) so if one of "my" bug's really is resurrected, I will post an new bug (with the actual version-information's) :smirk:
    • I further think, that it should help Xamarin, if a comment like "bug still exists in version X.XX" is added
    • and... I only have set bug's to resolved that don't had comments from other users like "same here" or something similar

    So... finally each user has to decide himself, if he want to do it... I personally think, it should help Xamarin to save time (and so will help us all to receive a new "stable" version sooner) :sunglasses:

Thursday, May 28, 2015 3:46 PM
  • User112992 posted

    While I appreciate what JohnHardman is saying, If they can't reproduce the bug, they're going to be closed anyway. So yes - please tidy up your bugs! Also, if you have one set to NEEDSINFO, please provide said info and then change it back to NEW (otherwise they will be neglected forever).

    In the past 2 weeks, all my reported bugs have been confirmed, which is nice.

    Thursday, May 28, 2015 7:38 PM
  • User67129 posted

    A Xamarin Survey has been posted but not "Stickied" for some reason so it is going to drop off the front page. I feel it is very important to give feedback on Xamarin.Forms so far so am posting the link here to try to keep it alive ;

    https://forums.xamarin.com/discussion/42368/xamarin-forms-future-survey

    Direct link https://www.surveymonkey.com/s/XamFormsMay2015

    Friday, May 29, 2015 1:08 PM
  • User65389 posted

    @JKay: Thanks for posting the link here (it's really a theme that fit to the theme of this thread). I will fill it... @TheRealJasonSmith: Thanks for doing the survey :smile:

    Friday, May 29, 2015 1:26 PM
  • User67129 posted

    @TheRealJasonSmith Could you please sticky the Xamarin Forms Future Survey. It's too important to get lost on the forum

    Friday, May 29, 2015 1:28 PM
  • User76049 posted

    @JKay

    Good shout about the survey. I've already filled it in but was surprised it wasn't pinned as it's extremely important.

    Friday, May 29, 2015 1:40 PM
  • User65389 posted

    At all readers of this thread: Maybe you also want to give your feedback/suggestions about the forum in this thread: https://forums.xamarin.com/discussion/42324/wishes-to-the-forum#latest

    Friday, May 29, 2015 2:11 PM
  • User106639 posted

    @FredyWenger good man for the post. Like others I agree.

    There's some comments here I absolutely don't agree with, and would love to see @MigueldeIcaza's take on, while we have his gaze.

    There seems to be this misconception that Xamarin forms is only suitable for "simple ugly apps" or rapid prototypes and we should run away to our storyboards, xml markup, ios and android code at the first sign of trouble. I've seen the community here, accept for a year that list performance is terrible in xaml, and not do anything to challenge it. We've not got anything but a tap gesture; everyone just accepts that.

    In 2 months since I started using Xamarin, I've solved the performance issues on lists, I've just added cross platform gestures using Xamarin's own mechansim, and also written controls to enable "view controller containment" (i.e pages in pages). Perhaps it's because I was so green, I didn't know that the doctrine seems to be that Xamarin Forms isn't capable of much - ignorance isn't always a bad thing.

    I'm basically writing anything I want in xaml, in xamarin forms, with 98% code reuse outside of a few controls I have in a code library (grid view from xlabs, my gesture library, page embed view, and a fast image class). I'm literally writing totally custom UI's (one of them is a knock off of skype on iOS, with the parallax and everything). None of it is native code - yet performance is indistinguishable.

    I'm not the only one here doing this. Yet I still feel even Xamarin themselves are in denial of the clear truth. This product is absolutely amazing and has endless potential due to the way it's engineered.

    However, we still have a lack of access to a couple of things (e.g. we have to use reflection to access renderers [inside of platform specific code (i.e services/other renderers)], which facilitate the rich kind of compositional controls I'm making to enable the performance and flexibility I'm getting).

    This makes me uneasy, as if Xamarin themselves aren't sure whether to let the experienced engineers amongst us really blow the lid off this platform. What is Xamarin Forms to Xamarin @MigueldeIcaza? Is it for making serious apps? Is it just for making demos? Is it for serious software engineers? I'd love to know because I'm hooked, and it's the only thing I want to be making apps with for the next chapter of my career.

    (slight lie. unity 3d for games ftw ;) ).

    Saturday, May 30, 2015 2:35 AM
  • User90084 posted

    @GeorgeCook I'd give you two likes (and Fredy's too, for that matter), for that last post, if it'd let me. :innocent: I have to ask the same, "What is Xamarin.Forms, to Xamarin?"

    Saturday, May 30, 2015 4:09 AM
  • User65404 posted

    @MigueldeIcaza

    +1 for a release blog

    Saturday, May 30, 2015 11:07 AM
  • User11167 posted

    @GeorgeCook I think at least some of the misconceptions come from a lack of consistency on messaging from Xamarin themselves, unfortunately. The promise of Forms paints such a good picture for the company that they would be remiss if they did not heavily promote / emphasize it---in keynotes, blog entries, in Channel 9 sessions, an upcoming Petzold book, etc. But execution matters. A lot. Equally important as messaging consistency, too, is to be seen as perpetually under-promising while always over-delivering. I hope that their new emphasis will swing the pendulum in this direction, but that remains to be seen.

    To your question "What is Xamarin.Forms, to Xamarin?" While the overall bug rates (and lack of traction on the ones I filed in part as trial balloons, I freely admit) were of initial and primary concern, what really had me putting the brakes on recently was the following thread:

    https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9321985

    Now I suppose it's entirely possible that the natfriedman responding there was an impostor (a question I cannot answer), but let's for a moment assume authenticity. Given that, my takeaways from Nat's first response were:

    • "I do want to be clear that Xamarin.Forms is not Xamarin." This was a little bit puzzling to read, actually. I think we all understand the semantic distinction, surely, but Forms is prominently advertised as a part of the Xamarin Platform. The tone set immediately with that comment was one easily interpreted as some measure of disavowal. Not necessarily one that inspires confidence in further investment vis-à-vis the time/money/risk equations we all have to weigh.
    • "It's a library that we built to help people quickly write very simple, data-entry style apps." To their credit, this is fairly represented on their web site (http://xamarin.com/forms). But the walk-but-don't-run split messaging again does not inspire developer confidence---how will I know Forms will do what I need? What is "very simple?" What if we choose adoption, invest time/money around a Forms architecture, only to find scaling/stability issues later in development (or worse, after release)?
    • "It's not intended to be highly performant..." Any developer worth one's salt, on evaluating any package for use, would then ask: wait...why not? The categories that first came to mind when I read this were (a) because Xamarin doesn't consider performance a worthwhile investment for Forms or (b) that something about building Forms atop Xamarin made it hard to accomplish good performance. My reaction to possibility (a) was one of reluctance---if Xamarin isn't "all in," why should I be in at all? My reaction to (b) was of concern---if we all are considering the risk and investment to build things atop Xamarin, too, what does that say about our prospects for good performance? The platform, and everything Xamarin themselves builds atop it, should quite frankly exude all the traits that they want the platform to be known for---consistency, reuse, ease of getting things right the first time through language choice, etc. If I was running the show, that list would certainly include both stability and performance.
    • "...to emphasize that it [Forms] was for childishly-simple apps and screens..." Reaction on reading this: Ouch---call the marketing/PR folks, stat! :) If Forms was a mere framework tossed up on Xamarin's github for community benefit (with appropriate caveat-emptor messaging), I probably would not have blinked at such commentary. But it's not. It's emphasized. Prominent. Portrayed, I'd argue, as a pillar of the Xamarin Platform. And I'd think that no customer considers their app, however simple, as "childishly" so.
    • "That said, of course we still want to address all the issues that you found with Forms." Absolutely nothing wrong or unclear about that message! We all look forward to seeing words matched with deeds. ;)

    So circling back to "What is Xamarin.Forms, to Xamarin?" I don't think we know. And it's not clear to me that they know. It's hard to not think of pessimistic possibilities, given the current observables. Best case, I suppose: this is just a messaging problem. Worst case: an unwillingness or inability to make it happen.

    (Only time will tell, I suppose.)

    Saturday, May 30, 2015 8:43 PM
  • User106639 posted

    Exactly why I asked @MigueldeIcaza I'm exerting a huge effort doing dilligence for part of the long term strategy at my company. This is currently the point that stops me pulling the trigger too. Are Xamarin serious about forms, and are they dedicated to letting it create serious apps?

    The lack of access to other view's renderers when we write native renderers (the foundation of any meaningful use of Xamarin Forms), worries the hell out of me. What if Xamarin makes these already hard to get at properties impossible to get?

    I'll get onto our account rep. We could potentially have a lot of business for Xamarin (we're a 100 person consultancy) if we get on board; but we couldn't possibly commit to recommending it to more clients and chasing down more business if they just turn around and say "show's over kids: not only are we not going to give you public access to renderers; but we're going to bury it completely : go back to making crappy data entry apps with stock UI and sub-par performance".

    And therein lies the problem: They've built mechano and market it as duplo :(

    Saturday, May 30, 2015 8:52 PM
  • User90084 posted

    There is a definite fork in the road here. And the path chosen ultimately depends on how Xamarin decides to respond to a number of things, such as, "What is Xamarin.Forms to Xamarin?" We'll cut our losses and run, if MS buys out Xamarin, or it appears that Xamarin doesn't really care about this 'pillar'. (I'd consider it a pillar, as well, @plynkus.)

    Sunday, May 31, 2015 1:14 AM
  • User258 posted

    Nothing is closer at delivering complete native cross platform than XF. And Xamarin is a company that is built around that promise. So XF is going nowhere but forward.

    Xamarin is merely buying time. Talking down expectations. Trying to remove pressure. They will catch up. They have no choice. Or someone else will snatch the ball and run - XF is a solid proof of concept.

    Sunday, May 31, 2015 11:16 AM
  • User65389 posted

    +1 to @void

    I think, this thread has hit a nerve of Xamarin community and also of Xamarin itself.
    2,7 K views and 90 reply’s within 11 days shows a clear picture to the Xamarin community.
    The fact, that Miguel has replied himself to this thread (and has done some promises) shows, that also Xamarin definitely has took notice.

    I see a lot of activity in Bugzilla, what let me hope for a real “stable” next version soon...

    Xamarin staff also has done some promises, to resolve the (really!) annoying debugger problems here: http://forums.xamarin.com/discussion/41844/my-findings-after-test-if-the-newest-xamarin-vs-integration-software#latest

    So - maybe - we simply have to wait for the next weeks (not months) and see what happens….?

    Sunday, May 31, 2015 1:37 PM
  • User55225 posted

    I'm with you @FredyWenger, @GeorgeCook and @plynkus !

    The more I use X.Forms, get comfortable with it and push it, the more powerful it becomes. I walk away thinking "this was the missing piece to make Xamarin the best mobile dev choice.", at least LOB apps.

    I just renewed my subscription and eagerly awaiting @MigueldeIcaza next response

    Sunday, May 31, 2015 8:34 PM
  • User67129 posted

    I think a proper response is needed on this thread rather soon. They can't keep burying their heads in the sand.

    Also... Reposting Xamarin's Xamarin.Forms survey as they STILL haven't sitckied it

    https://forums.xamarin.com/discussion/42368/xamarin-forms-future-survey

    Monday, June 1, 2015 7:56 AM
  • User13 posted

    Hello,

    Good questions on what Xamarin.Forms is.

    Architecturally, we do not think that there are a major roadblocks for people, but we understand that going from one end of the spectrum to tuning every feature that is trivially done with the lower-level API is possible, but not straightforward.

    So our one sentence recommendation is what you see on the web site. But that does not mean that you can not push it to its limits (and people have certainly done that to our amazement, creating user experiences that are both great, and undistinguishable from native experiences).

    The initial Forms push saw too many people jumping with both feet on it, and then finding to their surprise that bits that were trivial to do with native APIs requires to jump through hoops with Forms. This is why we are making sure that we give people guidance. But that is all it is: guidance. It wont apply to everyone, and it is not the same in every case, and will vary significantly between projects, engineers and the conditions of each effort.

    We have almost completed triaging all Forms bugs now (some 50 or so left), which is giving us a clear picture of where the major problems are. There are great signs: many of the bugs were of the form "It hurts when I shoot my foot", relatively few crashing errors, various semantic problems and various limitations on underlying platforms.

    Our focus now is to close these bugs in order (crashers, semantics, limitations that can be addressed). Once that is done, we will resume the work on more features.

    Monday, June 1, 2015 7:20 PM
  • User106639 posted

    Hi guys, I think this is a natural place to put a link to the series of blog posts I've been working on, which covers the advanced techniques I'm using to get the most out of Xamarin Forms. It's a multiple part posting; but the first part fits in perfectly here.

    It's called: "Xamarin Forms Baby's blocks, or big boys bricks?"

    Some of you who have commented above might find it of interest.

    http://blog.twintechs.com/advanced-xamarin-forms-techniques-for-flexible-and-performant-cross-platform-apps-part-1

    Monday, June 1, 2015 9:31 PM
  • User106639 posted

    sorry @MigueldeIcaza - we posted at the same time. I didn't mean to steal your thunder! Thanks for the response.

    I'm making a point in my communications (with colleauges, clients and in my blogging) to follow your line as well : Forms can do amazing things, if you know how; but if you don't - it does basic stuff amazingly simply - and Xamarin.iOS and Xamarin.Android are still there if you need them.

    I'm taking your statement to mean that you're not going to lock down access to renderers for the more experienced devs who are writing cutting edge components, and that we can expect some responses to our bug tickets which require slightly more exposure of apis to allow us to build the most amazing stuff? We're not looking for hand-holding, just a foot-hold to allow us to do brilliant stuff, and the security that Xamarin won't pull the rug from under our feet, if we decide to build amazing apps with Forms (which is what many of us are very keenly doing).

    Monday, June 1, 2015 9:50 PM
  • User4685 posted

    @GeorgeCook Great post George.

    I've got 5 high quality apps built with Xamarin.Forms in the appstores. I've never found a issue in Xamarin.Forms that I cannot work around. The part that's great about Xamarin and Xamarin.Forms is the flexibility, you can jump between Native, Forms and Hybrid with ease.

    The past apps I've built have mixes of all of them, it's a real testament to Xamarin, I've blogged about it recently.

    Tuesday, June 2, 2015 1:50 AM
  • User106639 posted

    ha! @MichaelRidland I'd already ready your blog post and found it very interesting. I'm glad you shared it here too.

    Anyone else got examples of apps that take Xamarin's UI experience to the max?

    Tuesday, June 2, 2015 1:52 AM
  • User4685 posted

    Also thank you @GeorgeCook and others for pushing the platform and holding it to high standards, it makes it better for all of us.

    Tuesday, June 2, 2015 1:52 AM
  • User4513 posted

    @GeorgeCook - Great post and great blog.

    Wednesday, June 3, 2015 7:29 PM
  • User65389 posted

    @MigueldeIcaza

    We are working to get updates to Xamarin.Forms quickly to you guys. I am guessing that we will have a package with many of these fixes in about two to three weeks (when we ship our 2nd service release to the platform).

    Three weeks are over next Tuesday… :smirk:

    Can you give us a date for the next release please..?

    Thanks

    Thursday, June 11, 2015 2:45 PM
  • User132753 posted

    @MigueldeIcaza You indicated that there are ~50 bugs left. Just wondering how you came up with this number? I see 377 on Bugzilla. Did you mean only the "confirmed" bugs? Anything "new" or "needs info" is likely to turn into a confirmed item, so I assume it's more than 50. Thanks for listening to community feedback.

    Thursday, June 11, 2015 3:34 PM
  • User13 posted

    Fredy, I am hoping that it will happen next week. Our team lead is on vacation currently.

    Thursday, June 11, 2015 8:04 PM
  • User65389 posted

    @MigueldeIcaza: Thanks for your feedback and.... ... let’s hope, that the team lead has recovered well, charged the battery and is ready to take off.. :wink:

    Thursday, June 11, 2015 8:20 PM
  • User89714 posted

    And let's hope there isn't key-person risk involved... Would like to think a release that many of us are waiting for isn't held up by one person being unavailable.

    Thursday, June 11, 2015 8:49 PM
  • User13 posted

    Fredy,

    Follow up: I have just been told that they are preparing the package now for a release early next week.

    Thursday, June 11, 2015 9:25 PM
  • User13 posted

    @john this is an important release, with a lot of fixes, so we want the team lead to be in charge. I would not want to make decisions, packaging and distribution without him being involved.

    Thursday, June 11, 2015 9:26 PM
  • User23645 posted

    Hi @MigueldeIcaza, do you have a definitive date / time this week you expect to release the new pre-release version?

    We cannot currently deploy to ARM devices for WinUniversal, or create store packages for them.

    Thanks.

    Monday, June 15, 2015 8:13 PM
  • User23645 posted

    @MigueldeIcaza With today's pre3 update, we can now deploy to WinUniversal ARM, thanks a TON!

    Tuesday, June 16, 2015 7:44 PM
  • User65389 posted

    I have posted this thread at May 19 (almost two months ago). So… I think it’s time for an update :smirk:

    In the meantime, I was able to ship my app (based on pre-3) to all stores (iOS, Android and Windows Phone). So my app is “live” now on all platforms in Switzerland (what is the (my) target-marked - until now :sunglasses: )

    To be able to ship my app, I had to implement some workaround for still existing bugs and to solve incredible problems on the way to the shops. You can find my findings (and some hints) to ship the app’s here: http://forums.xamarin.com/discussion/45593/how-to-ship-a-xf-app-to-the-stores-ios-android-wp#latest

    The WP (8.0) application has still a main-problem (can only be served, if “some content is under the finger” what Xamarin has to solve) but is - regarding the performance - now fully comparable to the other platforms (what is a great step). For the other platforms (iOS and Android), I would wish, that the scrolling would be as smooth as it is in WP (where it is as smooth as it should be).

    So… I was able to reach an important milestone for me and the pre-3-version is (at least for me :tongue: ) the first stable enough XF-version for using it in production :lol: This is true for me / my app (as every app has other functions, this not must be true for every app :wink: )

    Further my app was accepted in all store on the first attempt - so it seems that I and Xamarin have done something correct :smirk:

    So for me XF has become much better (and is now usable for production) since my first post two months ago. :) :)

    Therefore, I want to thank here @MigueldeIcaza and @TheRealJasonSmith

    What I still miss, is the “better communication to the community and the “release blog” :error: :error:

    My (“personal”) bugs has been reduced from 25 to 9 (where by some of the 9 should be resolved in the meantime)

    But… how are the other bugs looking now…?

    As the forum was down yesterday for some hours :angry:, I have took the time to make a new “bugzilla-query” :smirk:

    I have done a fresh bugzilla-query: Xamarin - Forms - Forms (what - in my understanding - should give out all bugs to Xamarin.Forms (VS and XS).

    I then have tried to create “meaningful” results (what was not really easy).

    Overview total filled bugs in Bugzilla to .forms:

    Details to state “resolved”:

    Still open bugs vs resolved bugs:

    My conclusion: If my query was correct, there are 162 bugs really open on the Windows platform and 187 bugs on the MAC-platform = total 349 bugs

    As I have queried in my first query only the windows-platform, it seems as the bugs were be reduced from about 530 to about 162 (for the windows-platform) what is not bad for two months (and let us hope, that the remaining bugs are solved in one more month :wink: ).

    So… thanks for that to Xamarin :lol:

    And please:

    • resolve the remaining bugs further on this pace (so that new functions / enhancements can be implemented in XF (very) soon :tongue:)
    • clean out the solved bug’s (so that the really remaining bugs can be queried easily)
    • hold your promise to (REALLY) enhance your user communication

    Finally… thanks

    Tuesday, July 14, 2015 10:26 AM
  • User28783 posted

    @FredyWenger, very useful info.

    I released an XF-based iOS app a month ago. It was more than four months of struggle, and frustration. The app is very simple app with no fancy animation/graphics using oauth2, listview, 4 pages, images, and REST services (GET/POST). All views (I'm not kidding) have custom renderers; requiring me to reimplement on Android and WP. The code is very fragmented in a way that there are some code in xaml, code-behind, custom-render, and platform-specific project. My code have mix match of XAML ICommand bindings and Xaml tied to a code-behind that in turn calls a method in the VM because there's no bindable command available.

    I spent my time mostly trying to make a should be trivial task to work, and end up being a bug or I have to make a platform-specific code.

    I so wish that Xamarin introduced XF as a preview like what they did on Xamarin Insights and other products like Xamarin Sketch. This way, devs like me will stay away from it for production until trivial functionalities get resolved. Don't get me wrong, I'm still responsible for making the decision, and it's my mistake. It's just that the demos, blogs and initial dry-run codding looked really promising, until I started coding for the real thing. I felt it the snow ball of workarounds kept getting bigger and bigger until it was too late to back out.

    For now, I'm staying away from XF on new projects. Used to be a strong XF advocate recommending people left and right, and now telling them it has potential but not ready for prime time.

    Tuesday, July 14, 2015 12:25 PM
  • User65389 posted

    @MarkMadlangbayan: Thanks for your posting.

    It was more than four months of struggle, and frustration

    I had the same problems like you (and... maybe a bit more :smirk:) :

    If XF almost a year ago was like it is today, it would have saved me months...

    But... however... as I wrote in my posting - I now have my app's in the shops :smile:
    ...and hope, it becomes better and better now on a fast pace... :flushed:

    Tuesday, July 14, 2015 12:39 PM
  • User28783 posted

    @FredyWenger, I share the same hope with you :smile: . I'd like to build LOB apps or quick and dirty apps that I don't have to code it with classic Xamarin iOS/Android. Something like XF is a better fit.

    Tuesday, July 14, 2015 12:53 PM
  • User19820 posted

    even if XF would have no bugs, you would still need to know some stuff about each platform. and that's a good thing. XF has the benefit to abstract several things, but it will never be able to be perfect. that's why I think the renderer mechanism is great

    if either iOS or Android changes dramatically in the way how they work as an OS, it's going to be a challenge to keep an abstract and unified way to handle all platforms how XF is doing today. this is another reason why knowing a bit how each OS works, is in your own interest.

    Tuesday, July 14, 2015 12:57 PM
  • User28783 posted

    @AndreiNitescu, I agree.

    Tuesday, July 14, 2015 1:03 PM
  • User65389 posted

    @MarkMadlangbayan and @AndreiNitescu Agree with you both :smile:

    Tuesday, July 14, 2015 1:08 PM
  • User311 posted

    @FredyWenger : well I finally managed to get my apps published as well in the Android and iOS stores. First time for both even with custom Bluetooth hardware, so getting better at that as well ;-)

    It was a big struggle, yes, and I'm especially not happy yet with TableView performance on Android. It is almost acceptable but not nearly as smooth as native. I still have to try George Cook's FastCell thing. And when do we get full AppCompat support ;-)?

    But I'm sure that that will get better in time, I just hope that it will come soon.

    Tuesday, July 14, 2015 1:41 PM
  • User76049 posted

    Add to the agrees.

    Forms 1.4.3 stable is definitely a jump forward in smoothness & performance, it's allowed us to finish one app off and polish up some prototypes.

    Been down the hybrid road and don't fancy writing native stuff. These Forms allow our WPF guys to move over to Xamarin much quicker as it's all XAML and MVVM pattern.

    Tuesday, July 14, 2015 1:59 PM
  • User117375 posted

    Just to throw in my 2-cents, I think the Xamarin.Forms team should focus on this order:

    1. Bug-fixes, cleaning up Bugzilla
    2. Creating a graphical designer for Xamarin.Forms. It is the one missing feature that makes Xamarin.Forms feel massively incomplete.
    3. Adding cross-platform controls/APIs to reduce the amount of platform-specific code. It's entirely possible to get this down to 0%, which would be a huge selling point for Xamarin. You could save your developers an enormous amount of time by leveraging existing open-source work:

      • NGraphics for cross-platform drawing and NControl, a Xamarin control which uses NGraphics for custom-drawn controls.
      • SQLite and its PCL-fork SQLite-PCL for cross-platform local database querying.
      • PCLStorage, a cross-platform File API
      • Xamarin.Forms Labs, a large number of cross-platform controls and APIs specifically designed for Xamarin.Forms.

      All of the above are released under licenses that would allow Xamarin to use and ship the code with Xamarin.Forms.

    Tuesday, July 14, 2015 3:20 PM
  • User65389 posted

    It seems as I was a day to fast to do the bug-query: :smile: http://forums.xamarin.com/discussion/45656/xamarin-forms-1-4-4-pre1-released#latest

    Tuesday, July 14, 2015 4:18 PM
  • User65389 posted

    @MigueldeIcaza

    In this thread we have talked about user-information, better regression-tests, establishing better processes, better feedback/communication, release-blog and so on…

    Unfortunately, it seems as nothing has changed - I’m really disappointed :disappointed:

    With every new release (including “stable” releases like the latest 1.4.4) there are new or again popping old bugs. Neither we have a release blog nor do we have detailed information’s to all changes and clear processes. Unfortunately, I see no progress…

    It’s always the same procedure:

    • Release of a new version (whether pre or release)
    • All paying customers have to test their app on all platforms
    • Some of the “should be solved bugs” are not solved” some new bugs are appearing, some of the already fixed bugs are re-appearing (therefore, I call them evergreens :smirk:)
    • the not solved or new bugs are reported from the customers - often the customers are asked to “please create a minimum example”
    • after a few days, a bugfix / new version is released
    • the customers say “thanks that you have fixed the bug, that you have included in the new version, so that my app is running again now”

    Seriously, that can’t be for a product, we all pay for!

    Only to remember… normally new releases (at least “stable” releases) should be (regression-)tested, existing bugs from the last version should be solved, earlier fixed bugs should “stay fixed” and new features should be added. It seems as if this has been forgotten at some users/customers and also at Xamarin.:wink:

    I personally have invested (once again) about two day’s to update my project, test my app on all platforms, create a description (.pdf) and post it on the thread. By my tests, I have found a new bug in WP, an error in the Xamarin-documentation and - I think so (not sure) - have found an easy solution, how to make the WP-platform better for all customers with an (I think) easy change in the pre-settings to the XF-platform (simply set InputTransparent to true for all visual elements in WP per default, let it on the other platforms on correct the false Xamarin documentation). If that would be done (I think so), a WP-App would be servable (like the other platforms) without any needed change of the Xamarin-customers (the WP-app (e.g. ScrollView) then should become servable also, if “no content is under the finger”). I have created a .pdf with all details and posted it to the 1.4.4-pre-3 thread: http://forums.xamarin.com/discussion/comment/141787/#Comment_141787

    The only feedback I have received is that “the Xamarin-documentation is really false”… And - b.t.w. - the documentation has not been corrected yet (default is false, not true): http://developer.xamarin.com/api/property/Xamarin.Forms.VisualElement.InputTransparent/

    No feedback to my new found WP-bug, no feedback to my suggestion to change the default XF-WP-settings (although I have asked for two more times). And… a feedback also could be “we had a look to you suggestion and can’t do that, because of…..”).

    So… I have to ask me seriously, what am I doing here…? Why should I (as paying customer!) invest always a lot time to test and document bugs for Xamarin, if I not even receive any feedback..?!? Are we (paying customers) sheep’s, that have to be satisfied, If we become a small piece of grass to feed…?

    This has also something to do with culture… if Xamarin further goes this road, Xamarin would loose more and more of the “for Xamarin working customers”! I work now about one year with XF and have put a lot of goodwill in it ("it's new - let's give them some time...").

    I’m really very disappointed right now as it seems: Nothing has changed! :disappointed: :disappointed:

    Wednesday, July 29, 2015 2:40 PM
  • User106639 posted

    @FredyWenger I think you've been generous giving the team time to catch up with what's happened with Forms. It's clearly escalated quicker than they had expected. I imagine they must feel like they're shacked up inside a shopping mall with all these screaming zombies (of which I am one) outside screaming : "bugs!", "process!", "enterprise!"..

    I do feel for the team. Saying that though, the clear, and measured way that you're voicing your concerns, is (as always) a benefit to the whole community and necessary. Hopefully by now, the leadership team at Xamarin are well aware that they have an untamed monster here and are in the process of rearing it in - I don't have access to their stats; but we've been hiring, and it's impossible to find anyone: It's quite simply starting to blow up all over the place.

    It's clear to all of us that they won't be able to continue like this for much longer (I'm sure forms will be a big success story in 2016) - perhaps they should leverage their friends in Microsoft to find out how to better manage this?

    There's only so many canaries in coal mine.. they have to take notice soon or.. well.. you get it.. :/

    Wednesday, July 29, 2015 3:15 PM
  • User65389 posted

    @GeorgeCook: Thanks for your posting and - Yes!
    The "untamed monster" grows and grows and nobody seems to be able to domesticate it.
    I also think, that it is very difficult to find good staff for the Xamarin-development.
    But this has nothing to do with how the processes are (not) implemented or how customers are treated. :smirk: Greetings to the UK.

    Wednesday, July 29, 2015 4:59 PM
  • User106639 posted

    I meant it's hard to find good people, because it's clearly growing rapidly. Anybody good is occupied - I wasn't connecting those things together.

    And you should send your greetings to Peru, which is where I reside ;)

    Wednesday, July 29, 2015 5:01 PM
  • User65404 posted

    I'm really glad you're keeping this thread alive @FredyWenger - I think your approach here is excellent at addressing issues that are clearly frustrating the community. I've personally had to take the decision to drop forms for my current project due to bugs and a lack of clear communication regarding releases etc.

    You hit the nail on the head for me with the remarks about it being something we pay (a significant amount) for, yet we do the testing ourselves. It feels like an open source project, but its not - its a commercial one!

    Thursday, July 30, 2015 10:13 AM
  • User65389 posted

    @mattwhetton:
    Thanks for your posting. It's a pity, that you had to decide to drop forms... I still hope, that things become better (and you know, the hope dies last...)
    Actually, I don't see a real alternative to .Forms, what - I think - is the main reason for most customers to stay with XF (for now) and take what they (we) receive.... But as soon as there is a real alternative to XF (and I think, it will come ; maybe sooner as we can expect as you know, the "Internet-time" is running very fast) and the behavior of Xamarin has not changed until then, I think, Xamarin will loose (a lot of) paying customers :flushed::flushed:

    Thursday, July 30, 2015 1:16 PM
  • User52818 posted

    @MigueldeIcaza Everything has been already said in this thread. Thanks a lot to @FredyWenger for his constructive ideas to Xamarin. Myself: my app with a WebView has been running well about 5 months ago tracking a youtube website with the navigated event. I received a new Forms update and the event wouldn't fire again. I filed a bug report. It took over 4 months after absolute silence until @TheRealJasonSmith had a look at it. And believe me, I sent many messages, forum posts and changes to the bug log. He fixed something but changed the type from bug to a feature (how convenient). Now I am waiting again. And yes, this time I got an answer: There is no plan for the next feature release, I got told. I haven't been able to publish my app for almost 5 months now because of that. No help from Xamarin at all! They don't realize apart from my frustration, I lose money on this too by not be able to sell my product. And again, we are all paying customers. We have the right to get support and a stable product. I pay, you deliver. This is not acceptable and I will do my part to it to make myself heard.

    Thursday, August 6, 2015 10:56 AM
  • User181 posted

    @RogerSchmidlin, why are you unable to ship your app with the previous version of Xamarin.Forms that according to you worked fine? If you don't need an update then don't install it.

    Thursday, August 6, 2015 1:09 PM
  • User52818 posted

    @adamkemp because its 5 months old and many bugfixes have been done since. Unfortunately, there still quite a few bugs in the current forms version too. If you don't take my word, check the release threads. I don't think Xamarin has a stable product at the moment and certainly proper process to get there. I am very worried.

    Thursday, August 6, 2015 2:06 PM
  • User14244 posted

    Funny that I have published a few apps and they are working great on a lot of devices. Forms is stable. Maybe you should post your issue in another thread. Possibly someone can help you.

    Post a sample of your code.

    Thursday, August 6, 2015 2:11 PM
  • User52818 posted

    @breps I am happy for you that you have a working app. I did post my stuff in other threads to and also filed bug reports. Have a look at how many bug reports are still not even started. I am happy for everyone this has been a joy ride for me it hasn't. But don't get me wrong, I think Xamarin has huge potential and is a great idea. I would love to continue developing my apps with Xamarin. But as a paying customer I also want support and a stable product.

    Thursday, August 6, 2015 2:25 PM
  • User28549 posted

    @RogerSchmidlin I think what @breps is saying is that there should almost always be a work-around. Maybe the old version had a bug that you ended up relying on in your app. That being said, maybe there's a different thought approach that can solve your issue and allow you to ship.

    Thursday, August 6, 2015 2:29 PM
  • User14244 posted

    @RogerSchmidlin , I just looked at one of your posts for the bug: https://bugzilla.xamarin.com/show_bug.cgi?id=29139

    Jason replies and tells you its javascript causing the issues. He also states a workaround.

    Are you not able to implement your own renderer for now?

    Thursday, August 6, 2015 2:32 PM
  • User52818 posted

    Yes, Jason actually solved the issue but is not going to release it just yet. And there is no plan when this is going to happen. I wish he gave me a work around for my problem in the meantime. I don't know how.

    Thursday, August 6, 2015 3:02 PM
  • User181 posted

    All I'm saying is that you claimed your app was running well until you updated. If that was the case then the solution is obvious: don't update. I know there are bugs in Forms (I've reported a bunch myself), but bugs that don't affect your app or you have worked around are irrelevant. You don't update unless you have to. That's just software engineering common sense.

    Thursday, August 6, 2015 3:14 PM
  • User65389 posted

    @breps:

    Forms is stable

    This is a (very) moving target...
    I (fortunately) also have shipped my apps to the (all) stores, based of XF 1.4.3-pre-3, as with this version (my) app was stable (excluding, that in the WP-version ScrollView's only are scrollable, if some content is behind the finger and the false page is called from the master-detail-page, if on the main-menu without content is tapped).
    As the problem with the master-detail-page was solved with a newer XF-version, I have updated and tested my whole app on all platforms, found a new bug, that crashes my WP-App and have investigated the WP-scrolling-problem in detail. By my investigations, I have found a wrong Xamarin-description and (think so) a possible solution to fix for the scrolling-problem in WP (if Xamarin would change some default-settings to WP, it should be solved for all XF-users on one strike).
    I have documented all in a .pdf an uploaded it in the 1.4.4.pre3-thread: http://forums.xamarin.com/discussion/comment/141787/#Comment_141787 And the result...?
    Confirmation, that the Xamarin-documentation really is false (b.t.w.: still not corrected, does somebody remember it later...?) No feedback to my new found WP-Bug (that brakes my WP-app) No feedback to my suggestion about the default-setting to WP: - If I'm right, this would solve the problem for all Xamarin customers on one strike - If I'm wrong, it would be nice, if I would receive an short feedback (takes a minute) that this - for whatever reason - can't be implemented (as it have took me more than a full day to figure it out and document it -> as customer)

    So the bottom line (for me) right now is:

    • Fortunately my app's ARE in the stores already and I actually DON'T have the pressure to update the apps (yet!)
    • I have now idea, if the new WP-bug is solved in the meantime...?
    • I have now idea, if my suggestion is investigated by Xamarin or if I have to change InputTransparent to true to ALL "visual elements" in my app MYSELF (platform-specific only to WP) to make my WP-app really servable

    I'm not able to update my app's based on the XF-version I have installed right now. To find out, if the latest version makes my app stable again, I have to update to the latest and check it out myself (as I have no feedback, that it is solved). And... there is (unfortunately!) a big chance, that I will have other new problems with the newest version (based on my own existing experience) .

    That's REALLY NO base to do a MEANINGFUL work AS CUSTOMER with XF, was so since I work with XF and seems not to change! :angry:
    And once again... WE are the customers and PAY for that...

    Thursday, August 6, 2015 3:20 PM
  • User14244 posted

    @FredyWenger , I think I recall this issue on another forum post.

    The workaround was to set the ScrollView background color. No need to set InputTransparent at all.

    A weird bug, but not a deal breaker.

    This is the code I just tested with. it works fine with the latest pre release.

            ScrollView scrollView = new ScrollView();
                scrollView.BackgroundColor = Color.Black;
    
                StackLayout stackLayout = new StackLayout();
    
                for (int i = 0; i < 50; i++)
                {
                    stackLayout.Children.Add(new Entry()
                    {
                        Text = string.Format("Test Entry {0}", i),
                        IsEnabled = false
                    });
    
                }
    
                scrollView.Content = stackLayout;
    
    
                // The root page of your application
                MainPage = new ContentPage
                {
                    Content = scrollView
                };
    
    Thursday, August 6, 2015 7:14 PM
  • User65389 posted

    @breps: Thanks :smile:
    I will check-it out tomorrow, but nevertheless: If your workaround works (only set the BackGroundColor of the ScrollView to black without to touch other "visual elements"), every developer (according to Xamarin: one million :smirk:) have to implement it. If I'm right with my suggestion (t.b.d.) the problem will be solved per default. And... I expect an answer from Xamarin, a correction of the description and a feedback to the new found WP-bug.

    Thursday, August 6, 2015 7:45 PM
  • User106639 posted

    And... I expect an answer from Xamarin, a correction of the description and a feedback to the new found WP-bug.

    hahaha I'll light a candle for you. Good luck ;p

    Thursday, August 6, 2015 10:08 PM
  • User65389 posted

    @GeorgeCook: Unfortunately... I (have to) agree with you. Please take a very big candle :wink:
    And... greetings to... Peru!

    Friday, August 7, 2015 7:24 AM
  • User76916 posted

    @FredyWenger - https://bugzilla.xamarin.com/show_bug.cgi?id=32698 is the confirmed bug report for that scrolling issue. At least its on their radar and have confirmed it. @breps is right in that setting the background color solves the issue for Windows Phone. I set mine to Transparent. Setting InputTransparent doesn't work and causes all kinds of issues with iOS and Android. I also noticed WP ignores InputTransparent anyway. Set any control to InputTransparent="true" and the control still picks up on the input. iOS and Android however respect the setting and will pass the input through to the control/view behind.

    Friday, August 7, 2015 8:15 AM
  • User65389 posted

    @breps: Set BackGroundColor to the ScrollView to Black (for WP) really seems to solve the problem (without change properties to the contained controls) So... once again - thanks for the hint :smile:
    Unfortunately, I'm not able to test the whole app, as the new found bug to WP (1.4.4-pre-3) not only is related to PopModalAsync(). My WP-app has further crashes (that weren't before update to 1.4.4-pre-3) => So I have to update to the latest XF-version and let me surprise, if the bug still exists or not.. @AdamP: Thanks also for your posting.
    By my tests, set InputTransparent to true (only for WP) had an effect. I also have noted, that for iOS InputTransparent has to be set to false (like actually the default-setting is), as else, the SV is no more scrollable (therefore my suggestion was, to set it only in WP to true).

    However - thanks to you both. :smiley:
    It's nice, that the "community-support" still works (unlike the Xamarin support)

    Friday, August 7, 2015 9:03 AM
  • User106639 posted

    +1 community support is great. I'd like to think xamarin are supporting those in the community helping everyone else.

    In my case I'v been getting assistance with my account rep and will actually get to chat to someone in xamarin about some things i want clarifying (around renderer acces and page in page)

    So from my point of view it's getting better. I hope those of you mucking in each day to support everyone and push things forward are having a similar experience too. If it wasn't for community support my app would never have been re written using xamarin forms.

    Saturday, August 8, 2015 10:04 PM
  • User52818 posted

    I would like to +1 community support too. Same as George, without you I couldn't have done my app. I had a great exchange of knowledge and some of you I have even met in person. Thanks for that. Also there is a big shift in customer support. I also got a opportunity to have a personal chat with Xamarin. I really appreciate this and it makes me confident, that things are changing to the good. It gives me a feeling that Xamarin cares. Thanks Xamarin :smile: I am looking forward to a strong Xamarin Forms future, the ultimative cross platform solution.

    Sunday, August 9, 2015 7:57 AM
  • User131884 posted

    +1

    Especially this (Andrei Nitescu, May 19):

    I know chances are small, but the right thing to do is make Xamarin Forms open source.

    Sunday, August 9, 2015 9:42 PM
  • User74518 posted

    I came here for the comments... grabs popcorn

    Sunday, August 9, 2015 10:54 PM
  • User8854 posted

    @FredyWenger thanks for all your contribution for this community. I have to agree with you in almost everything. In my case I have an app build with Forms on the App Store and Google Play. I must say, on Android XF really sucks, there are a lot of different devices and is almost imposible to track all bugs. But in iOS my app works pretty good.

    We're customer and we pay for all this but Xamarin resists to see things like that.

    Monday, August 10, 2015 3:43 AM
  • User131884 posted

    I must say, on Android XF really sucks, there are a lot of different devices and is almost imposible to track all bugs. But in iOS my app works pretty good.

    Exactly my experience.

    Monday, August 10, 2015 8:25 AM
  • User76049 posted

    @KITStudent

    Unfortunately Android is the wild West and Forms can't magic away all the platform specific nastiness of different Android manufacturer builds, API version etc. You need to invest a bit of time in making a Forms app work a bit slicker on Android from my experience but IMO it's more an Android issue than a Forms issue.

    Monday, August 10, 2015 8:41 AM
  • User131884 posted

    @NMackay

    I completely understand that, but that's exactly why XF would win the CrossPlatform Race if it would be open source. Keep the licensing for the standard product and delivery cycle, but just make that abstraction a collaboration project. Obviously there are too many issues with all the different devices and platforms for such a small team and on the other side there are sitting sooo many developers eagerly and desperately waiting for months for that one small bug fix, when they could just simply go ahead and extend it themselves and contribute to this awesome ambition of XF.

    Think about it, I just had an issue when I needed the stream of an ImageSource, no can do. You need to keep a redundant reference and implement some logic to workaround this missing component. This way I am investing hours to figure out the proper way of handling it, if I could extend the ImageSource it would be one simple function to retrieve my beloved byte-stream. This is just one out of thousands of examples.

    The platforms and variety of devices are just too big and growing too rapidly for a few people to handle it properly, but the community would definitely cope with it. Just think about the MvvmCross project, what those guys accomplished and how it ultimately became part of XF or at least some sort of role model. Just take a look at all the other nuget plugins for XF if you ain't seeing the potential and how we are dozing away the entire time. It's insanse how desperatly people want to push this Framework, but simply can't because it's restricted in a way that it damages itself and not just delaying its pace of progress and potential realization.

    TL;DR: Xamarin Forms is the perfect candidate for Open Innovation principles. Make it open source. Don't waste precious time by trying to fix the vast amount of issues of all the platforms yourselves as they are freshly arising on a daily basis.

    Monday, August 10, 2015 8:54 AM
  • User76049 posted

    @KITStudent

    I understand your arguments and agree with a lot of them but our company tends to shy away from open source stuff (although they now have no choice with WCF and PRISM), If Forms was opensource I wouldn't have been allowed to use it. We use Telerik controls, and a lot of products that have support agreements (including Xamarin). Once something is not officially supported it becomes a different consideration. Same with our ORM layer, we went for LLBLGen for several reasons, performance, flexibility and support been the main ones over other solutions.

    Hopefully as they are clearing the backlog of bugs they can refocus on adding features and improving extensibility. Also although making forms OpenSource may be better for the community, commercially it might not be currently a smart move for Xamarin as it's one of their USP's. I'm just saying I see both sides of the argument.

    Monday, August 10, 2015 9:15 AM
  • User131884 posted

    @NMackay

    I understand both sides as well. But I am struggling with the question wether it isn't even more beneficial in a long run for both sides to pursue this path.

    Let's face it, the ultimate question is who will win the race: Xamarin vs. Appcelerator vs. Cordova vs. ...

    IMHO this is the real deal breaker, reliability = "how fast can my developers realize our ambitions with this framework?" => community size will give you that

    I get the concept of USPs but I am honestly doubting that it'll be strong and solid enough to stand out. Just think of Python, Ruby, etc. how even big companies are allowing their developers to develop something using such languages and frameworks even though they now at some point they'll certainly be forced to revamp everything completely as it gets successfull (e.g. Twitter & Ruby).

    It's always just about how fast can you sell something to make it right afterwards. Nobody (except Google maybe) has the capacities to do it right from the beginning.

    As I mentioned earlier I really think that the principles of Open Innovation are applicable to this in a beautiful way. But well, this discussion won't change anything so I'll accept at this point that people have different opinions and reasons to pursue a certain path and decision. Although the optimal strategy could be a hybrid form as I stated it (attract lots of people with XF and its superiorness to grow rapidly, but charge the people with the regular licenses for the Xam framework itself, win-win. Even your company would relent in the end :smiley: ).

    Monday, August 10, 2015 9:35 AM
  • User65389 posted

    @all readers of this thread

    I have posted a proposal for a "bug-tracker-page" in the thread below: https://forums.xamarin.com/discussion/comment/149093#Comment_149093

    As this also would help, to make .Forms stable, I post the link here... Cheers :sunglasses:

    Thursday, August 27, 2015 8:36 AM
  • User258 posted

    Interesting audio podcast from gonemobile with Jason, which is slightly of topic but a nice insight to some of the issues discussed.

    http://gonemobile.io/blog/e0028-Behind-the-Scenes-of-Xamarin-Forms/

    Sorry if this has been posted elsewhere.

    Thursday, August 27, 2015 11:16 AM
  • User65389 posted

    @MigueldeIcaza:

    XF 1.4.4 "stable" was released at July 27. There are various not solved and new bugs "introduced" with 1.4.4 "stable".
    Please have a look at the thread here: https://forums.xamarin.com/discussion/46862/xamarin-forms-1-4-4-released/p1

    Instead of make 1.4.4 "stable" really stable, Xamarin seems to work on some 1.5.pre-x versions (that also have "introduced" some new bugs).

    Stable should mean... stable so that "stable" versions can be used for production. We wait now about 6 weeks for a really stable version and nothing happens (also no information's to what is going on and if and when we can expect a really stable version 1.4.4).

    To fix new bugs, "introduced" in a new "stable" version should have priority 1a for Xamarin so that the customers can use it for production and do their work...

    So.. I expect an update to XF 1.4.4 "stable" that is worth the name soon.

    Can we have management attention to this, please...?

    Thanks

    Tuesday, September 8, 2015 9:22 AM
  • User44073 posted

    +1

    Tuesday, September 8, 2015 5:00 PM
  • User60022 posted

    I wholeheartedly agree and have emailed Xamarin Support with the following in hopes they will pay attention to us:

    I would like request support to address FredyWenger's continuing Xamarin.Forms bug post and the lack of a true stable release of Xamarin and Xamarin Forms. http://forums.xamarin.com/discussion/comment/151204

    When will we get an "actual" stable release with resolution to the unacceptable backlog of bugs in the bug tracker that are not being fixed, test or even looked at? We are paying a substantial amount for a product that is in a perpetual beta state with the backlog of bugs never being resolve, no support on how to resolve bugs ourselves through custom rendering and no Open Source access to Xamarin Form source code to allow us to move forward when show stopping issues exist.

    Does the next great idea in cross platform development (Xamarin) need to fail as a company before you address your customer needs? As a Xamarin customer, I can honestly say that it feels like no one (with the random forum poster as an exception) at Xamarin really cares what it is like to be a Xamarin customer building apps in a production environment without ever actually receiving an actual stable build. All we seem to get is the next half-baked set of features that marketing needs to promote Xamarin and sell more subscriptions.

    I apologize for sending this to the support emails, unfortunately it’s the only place I have to send this information where someone might actually read it and I feel this information is important enough that someone needs to read it. This is not a rant but hopefully information that Xamarin as company will take to heart and not go down the same path as Microsoft of the 90s and 2000's did ignoring what customers really want and need only to further their own egotistic agenda.

    I love the Xamarin concept, I love the ability to write native code in C# and I am happy to pay for the ability to do that, however I feel the support we receive is not comparable to the stability of the product for the price we are paying. Please help us by actually listening to and supporting us in the only real support environment you offer us, the forums. Help us help you make Xamarin the next big thing in mobile like all of us using it know it can be.

    Thank you for your time. M

    Tuesday, September 8, 2015 5:07 PM
  • User74 posted

    +1
    I haven't commented earlier as I managed to avoid the April release fiasco (I didn't upgrade immediately and when I saw all the issues reported I remained on my current versions), but I have to say this state of affairs really is appalling.
    Xamarin, either allocate sufficient resources to produce (real!) stable releases, or just give up and pull the plug on Xamarin.Forms. If you won't open source it, consider releasing the code for the renderers at least so we can try to work around the issues we find.

    Tuesday, September 8, 2015 5:24 PM
  • User60022 posted

    Here is the response I received from my email to Xamarin Support. Hopefully this gets some traction and we can see some forward progress. I will continue to post any correspondence I receive from Xamarin directly.

    Dominic Nahous SEP 08, 2015 | 03:46PM EDT Hello Mike,

    Thank you very much for reaching out and for sharing both your thoughts in this email and a link to that thread. I certainly do understand your frustrations and I am in the process of bringing this directly to the attention of our VP of product.

    Regards, Dominic

    Tuesday, September 8, 2015 7:48 PM
  • User60022 posted

    As promised I wanted to update this thread and its subscribers:

    I just had a great conversation with Keith Ballinger from Xamarin about the concerns that have been voiced in this post (and many others) over the past few months of the stagnant state of bugs, the bug tracking process, stability of releases, lack of support engineers participation on the forums, difficulty in getting "how to" questions answered, quality and completeness of documentation and the state of samples and example code.

    As we all know there are no silver bullets in software development or in business in general so change will take time, however I was very please with Keith's openness and approach to the issues I raised and some of the solutions suggested in this thread and others that I have conveyed.

    I am hopeful that Xamarin will take these issues and suggestions to heart and start moving in a direction that will be more beneficial to us as developers and to Xamarin as a company.

    Thanks M

    Wednesday, September 9, 2015 12:18 AM
  • User28783 posted

    +1 What they need is competition, and this will solve the following:

    • An arm and a leg price for using Visual Studio and yet not as stable as Xamarin Studio (much cheaper license), with a lot less features (missing Xamarin Profiler, hit and miss iOS experience, etc.), and tendency to get behind Xamarin Studio as far as new features. Reminds me of GSNW (Gateway Services for Netware), create a just good-enough solution for people to migrate to Xamarin Studio.

    • Xamarin.Forms recurring bugs, inconsistent API, and missing features to be up-to-par with Android, iOS and Windows Phone development. Right now, I think this should be beta.

    • Great demo and documentation, but struggles when applying on real production development. (Case in point, advertising that we can use Visual Studio but developers I know later on move to Xamarin Studio because of price, missing features found on Xamarin Studio or got frustrated with recurring bugs and issues using Visual Studio).

    I hope these will change, because I do like the Xamarin community.

    Wednesday, September 9, 2015 1:54 PM
  • User130334 posted

    I agree with most of the content of this thread.

    Furthermore, what really disturbs me is how little information we get from Xamarin. We don't really know what's going.

    It's fine to be badly sick as long as you know how long it will take you to heal. But here we don't even get chance to hear to nurse tell us "don't worry, all will be fine" from times to times.

    (When haven't seen the nurse here in three months)

    Tuesday, September 15, 2015 11:02 AM
  • User65389 posted

    And… please release finally an usable VS integration SW that is worth the name “Stable”!

    I have to update my Android app and am not able to do it, as the evergreen-bug (file is in use by another process) is back, after I had to update my version to 3.11.836 for iOS9 support. I’m blocked in my work right now once again!

    And… are you really thinking, that every of your customer’s has the time to read such threads: http://forums.xamarin.com/discussion/50353/stable-release-xamarinvs-3-11-894-cycle-5-service-release-4#latest ... put together all “information-snippets”, check his installed SW-versions and all links in the thread to see, that… his problem is not described…?!?

    I (really!) can’t understand that!

    Tuesday, September 15, 2015 2:04 PM
  • User74 posted

    Strange, I can no longer find this thread, I can only access it via a direct link...
    EDIT: Can still search for it at least

    Tuesday, September 15, 2015 2:38 PM
  • User65389 posted

    @JohnHair I simply think, some properties to the thread like "pop if new message" or similar has been changed from Xamarin... This is also a (really bad) way, to keep the criticism of the customer's under the blanket If this really is the case, I'm very disappointed of Xamarin...:disappointed: :rage: :bawling:

    Tuesday, September 15, 2015 3:18 PM
  • User74 posted

    I agree 100% Fredy, but this isn't the first time this has happened here either...

    Tuesday, September 15, 2015 3:32 PM
  • User65389 posted

    The worse... We should call the police (if we could) :tongue:
    Joke beside... very pity!

    Tuesday, September 15, 2015 3:50 PM
  • User181 posted

    I'm a moderator, and I can see no evidence that anything has been done to this thread to hide it. Also, if I search for "how to make stable" it's the top result. I don't think anything nefarious is going on. The off-the-shelf forum software that Xamarin is using probably has some heuristics for determining when an old but active thread should no longer jump to the top. Take off your tin-foil hats.

    Tuesday, September 15, 2015 4:32 PM
  • User60022 posted

    @adamkemp how about a little respect to start with, great to have a representative of Xamarin clowning us when we are talking about serious issues with a product we pay a substantial sum to use.

    If you look at the attached screen capture, your comment was at 10:32 my time and should have fallen between the top two posts 10:33 and 10:25. That is what we are questioning.

    We are not crack pots spouting conspiracy theories, we are developers who have bet our lively hoods on Xamarin and Xamarin Forms and are voicing real concerns about the software. If our comments were unfounded then why did this thread cause Xamarin executives to take notice?

    If you're not able to help the discussion, please keep your insults to yourself.

    Tuesday, September 15, 2015 4:45 PM
  • User65389 posted

    Hi Adam Thanks for your feedback... That's not the problem (searching). The problem is, that the date to the last posting is no more updated (and this only for exactly this thread :smirk: ) and therefore the thread don't go anymore to page 1 and will be on page 50 in no time.... Actually, it is on page 9, with datetime September 8 although you have posted a few minutes ago... So... maybe this is a technical problem...? come on Adam... And we don't have tin-foil hats - we only want to be free to post, what we think...

    Tuesday, September 15, 2015 4:45 PM
  • User55225 posted

    WOW...that is very weird...

    The only reason why I even knew this thread was active is because its in my favorites.

    I've been a very active spectator to this thread and looking forward to some well deserved feedback and insight.

    Tuesday, September 15, 2015 4:59 PM
  • User181 posted

    I don't work for Xamarin, and I didn't say your comments were unfounded. I'm just saying that I see no evidence that this thread is being hidden in any way. I actually do believe this is either a bug in the forum or, more likely, the way the forum software deliberately behaves with old but still active posts. Why attribute malice to it? That's too cynical for me.

    Tuesday, September 15, 2015 5:24 PM
  • User65389 posted

    Adam, you can do a very simple test... just search a "stone-old" thread, post a message and see what happens... And... if you take a look at the count of views and postings to this thread, this is not an "old" thread... But.. if it is a bug in the forum, it can be solved and we all are happy (a bit) again :wink:
    Thanks for your support...

    Tuesday, September 15, 2015 5:40 PM
  • User65389 posted

    Hey wow! as soon as I have posted my last message, the problem seems to be solved (on page 1 again) :smiley: :smiley: So. thanks for solving the problem so fast :wink:

    Tuesday, September 15, 2015 5:42 PM
  • User132753 posted

    I wouldn't be surprised if Xamarin was purposely hiding this thread, but it might also be a forum feature as indicated above. Who knows.. but thank you all for keeping it active with new posts. :) I myself want a stable version that works with VS2015 and I'd love to hear more news on UWP support.

    Tuesday, September 15, 2015 6:42 PM
  • User159120 posted

    It is a feature named thread sinking: https://blog.vanillaforums.com/philosophy/diffuse-community-uproar-with-discussion-sinking/

    Wednesday, September 16, 2015 6:52 AM
  • User65389 posted

    @luburg: Thanks for your investigation - I thought something like that... But anyway... the problem is solved now...

    Wednesday, September 16, 2015 8:03 AM
  • User181 posted

    Again, I'm a moderator, and if that had been done I could see it. When I look at this thread I can see that it is not marked as sunk. As far as I can tell this wasn't done. Unless there's some other feature that is invisible to moderators then there's nothing going on here.

    Wednesday, September 16, 2015 2:23 PM
  • User76049 posted

    Something odd is going on as it pops up sometimes but after Fredy's comment at 9:03am I went back to the forum on another machine and the thread wasn't visible in the 1st three pages...I got bored after that and stopped looking :blush:

    Wednesday, September 16, 2015 2:35 PM
  • User65389 posted

    @MigueldeIcaza (and all other readers of this thread).

    In your blog-post here: https://blog.xamarin.com/introducing-our-first-release-candidate/ there are some good news.

    As Xamarin has grown, it has become increasingly important for our customers that every release of Xamarin be enterprise-grade: stable and high-quality.

    Exactly!

    New Visual Studio – iOS Support

    This addresses one of the major problems, that all iOS-developers have (the actual integration SW extremely hurts the productivity of all iOS-developers). If the new version really works as expected and we really all "will love it" (like you wrote), this is a big step in the right direction. The second major problem is the stability of .Forms (especially new bugs in new versions and "evergreens" (bug's that were solved and pops up again in newer versions). So... I hope, that the new "release candidate process" also will take place for .Forms and we all can expect "enterpris-grade: stable and high-quality .Forms versions for the future. Further I hope "process" really stands for a new process (it don't help to give the "stable" version just another name ("release candidate") when the processes surround the releases aren't changed / enhanced :smirk:
    Thanks for that!

    Wednesday, October 7, 2015 7:52 AM
  • User65389 posted

    I have posted a new thread to the "new Visual Studi - iOS Support" here: http://forums.xamarin.com/discussion/52913/new-visual-studio-ios-support-blog-your-findings#latest

    The target is, that users that have tested the new version, post their findings there. The first users have posted there already - thanks for that @RaphaelSchindler and @LeoArgyropoulos Unfortunately, it seems as: - the update only works on English installations - there also are some problems also with the English installation yet

    Details see under the link above...

    Wednesday, October 7, 2015 4:27 PM
  • User76049 posted

    @FredyWenger

    Thanks for creating that thread. I've posted my feedback there.

    Thursday, October 8, 2015 8:27 AM
  • User65389 posted

    I’m disappointed (one more time) from Xamarin… :cry:

    We still don’t have a stable .Forms. We still have to test our app with every new .forms release and see, which bug’s (maybe) has gone, which new bugs occurs and which “evergreens” have returned. I have took the time to do a new Bugzilla query (all .forms bugs).

    Actual state to the .forms bugs in Bugzilla:

    Comparison July 2015 vs November 2015:

    So… we now have 723 open bugs compared to 385 in July… Every count is higher now. So... I see now progress, I see a deterioration… :disappointed:

    We still not have a useful „bug tracker” like proposed here: https://forums.xamarin.com/discussion/comment/149093#Comment_149093

    Our wishes to the forum: http://forums.xamarin.com/discussion/42324/wishes-to-the-forum#latest are mostly ignored.
    O.K. we now have the “Like” visible - (really) thanks for that - and a “Question” link, that - unfortunately - is not really usable as we are not able to filter and all forum questions are showed scrambled.

    I feel “raped” from Xamarin: Instead of make .forms stable and add (since the start missing functionality) for the existing paying customers, new paying customers should be acquired with a “new” 2.0 version that don’t really bring any enhancement. We “may” test all new versions for Xamarin, report all found errors, hope for a fix and pay for that - therefore our wishes are ignored (that’s a real win-win situation :smirk: )

    Instead of enhance the communication (like promised also in this thread), the new 2.0 was simply put on nugget (in the stable-channel) without any pre-information in the forums to the users. Each customer has/had to note this himself, wonder and float the forum with questions to V2 (V4)! Instead, we receive a plain marketing-mail without any useful information (“Better, faster, and more productive”) to the “new” version 4 with advertising to the Xamarin test-cloud and insights.

    This is definitely the wrong way, Xamarin :bawling: :bawling:!

    Wednesday, November 18, 2015 11:57 AM
  • User76049 posted

    @FredyWenger

    I couldn't agree more. As usual the Forms users are taken for granted and 2.0 is pushed out for PR purposes. Also their pricing for Insights is a joke. Not touching 2.0.

    Really fed up with Xamarin for several reasons today.

    Wednesday, November 18, 2015 12:27 PM
  • User28783 posted

    @FredyWenger / @NMackay, I feel you both. I find it appalling that devs are generally defending Xamarin for whatever announcement they make and make you feel that it's ready for production use without having to contact Xamarin only to find out that it's a bug.

    • Xamarin.Forms -> Massive marketing push to use it by evangelists, blogs, Xamarin University and documentation. And yet, I still don't think it's production ready.
    • Visual Studio plugin -> Pay more than 3x, only to find out that you can't use it reliably. You'll end up bouncing back and for between Xamarin Studio and VS. Less features too. (No wonder, unless showing off VS feature or for marketing, all blogs and Xamarin University training are demoed using Xamarin Studio. Heck, I don't think a single Xamarin employee even used Visual Studio on a daily basis.) I just think it's a bait and switch feature.

    For a software company that's charging so much, I'm expecting more from them to deliver a stable platform where you don't face daily trivial issues that end up as a bug. The daily life of switching to alpha, beta, stable releases to figure out if your code or Xamarin's.

    This community should speak up more, so that Xamarin will wake up that we don't need the marketing hoopla's about them gaining new enterprise partners and delivering a new version but really same stability.

    Wednesday, November 18, 2015 1:35 PM
  • User65389 posted

    @MarkMadlangbayan said: This community should speak up more, so that Xamarin will wake up that we don't need the marketing hoopla's about them gaining new enterprise partners and delivering a new version but really same stability.

    Yes, exactly...

    Wednesday, November 18, 2015 3:05 PM
  • User106639 posted

    I'm afraid I'm of the same opinion here. It's very cynical for Xamarin to announce Forms 2.0 with so many outstanding bugs, so few new features, so little interaction with their user base and practically no real information about it.

    It's hard not to feel superfluous at this point - I feel like many of us have no voice whatsoever. As far as I can tell they are doing very little to address problems many of us raised 6 months ago. I have no idea how to make them focus more on real current developers, and assist us to make great apps which will grow the platform. All of this artificial growth they keep pursuing is just going to lead to more disgruntled developers, and that is not going to lead to a healthy eco-system.

    Wednesday, November 18, 2015 3:49 PM
  • User59024 posted

    I've been following this thread for some time and just want to add my voice of frustration.

    To Preface: I frequently hesitate to get more involved in the discussion as I am a fairly amateur developer (I've been developing for close to 2 years without any formal training). I feel I don't have the same ability to articulate my issues as it takes me a while to ascertain what the problem actually is. I don't have any previous experience filing bug reports so I will admit that I (and perhaps other frustrated users) could and should be more vocal/proactive about the problem here in Xamarin land. Thank you @FredyWenger, @NMackay, and @GeorgeCook (and all others) for all the thought and work you guys are regularly exerting to make our lives less painful. It's really appreciated.

    I was disheartened to see the announcement for Xamarin 4 with no mention of Xamarin.Forms improvements. A lot of the changes seems to give you a taste of their additional products (Test Cloud, Xamarin University, and the introduction of Xamarin Ultimate). It's seems like there are steering us to become more invested, though the heart of the Xamarin Solution (Xamarin.Forms) is not stable. It feels manipulative and vapid. But there isn't a whole lot of information available so perhaps there is some good stuff on the way.

    Much of @FredyWenger suggested solutions (going back several months) to Xamarin communication seems extremely relevant. His and our frustration with Xamarin.Forms is alive and in the fore-front of my mind every day I come to work––hoping to not waste the day away dealing with Xamarin issues.

    This community should speak up more, so that Xamarin will wake up that we don't need the marketing hoopla's about them gaining new enterprise partners and delivering a new version but really same stability.

    I will continue to post to this thread if/when I can offer something substantial. And I will make a better attempt at following up with bug reports. Asking the guys who are at the forefront of our cause here, what else can we be doing to speak up?

    Wednesday, November 18, 2015 6:26 PM
  • User106639 posted

    @Smaths thanks for your thoughtful and poignant comment. I'm sure Fredy will add more; but you should certainly let your account representative at Xamarin know. Perhaps if we see enough people happy to voice their concerns, then we could think of some other way to assist Xamarin in supporting their paying users.

    One note, is that you can probably kiss your MVP possibilities goodbye by speaking up about this stuff, which is likely why some of the more informed voices in the community always ignore or downplay the issues. I can't see that being tenable though over-time, the whole Forms community suffers with Xamarin's current approach to engaging the developer community, which as you say is vapid and marketing focused.

    Wednesday, November 18, 2015 6:31 PM
  • User59024 posted

    I'm sure Fredy will add more; but you should certainly let your account representative at Xamarin know.

    Ok that makes a lot of sense. I'm going to reach out in the very near future with some organized criticisms. I'm not sure how useful it would be, but perhaps putting together a rough template for a "Xamarin.Forms Stability Concerns" email would encourage other users who have not reached out to do so––make it easier to do so. I'm not sure that is a great approach as it may contain recycled material in the emails but I'm trying to think of ways to make it easier for users to voice their frustration. I can offer a draft when I've put mine together.

    One note, is that you can probably kiss your MVP possibilities goodbye by speaking up about this stuff, which is likely why some of the more informed voices in the community always ignore or downplay the issues.

    @GeorgeCook I've seen this MVP status around but I don't know what it indicates. Xamarin unofficially approves of you work? You teach xamarin courses? Could you briefly explain?

    Wednesday, November 18, 2015 7:52 PM
  • User181 posted

    One note, is that you can probably kiss your MVP possibilities goodbye by speaking up about this stuff, which is likely why some of the more informed voices in the community always ignore or downplay the issues.

    I'm not sure where this fear comes from. I've been vocally criticizing Xamarin.Forms in various ways for a long time. I happen to think that the sentiments in this thread are overblown (flame me if you want for that), but that has nothing to do with any fear of losing my MVP status or blind allegiance to Xamarin. I just honestly disagree.

    For instance, Fredy likes to point to the bug count in bugzilla, but that's not a valid way of tracking stability. There are too many confounding factors. For instance, how many of those bugs existed previously but were only recently reported? How many bugs are reported and fixed privately that you never see? Was there a push to report more bugs publicly recently, which would inflate the numbers? What's the severity of those bugs, and how many users do they affect?

    If you want to use defect metrics to measure quality you have to put a lot more thought into it than simply comparing a single total number. That analysis has clearly not been done here.

    I've seen this MVP status around but I don't know what it indicates. Xamarin unofficially approves of you work? You teach xamarin courses? Could you briefly explain?

    Xamarin MVPs (listed here) are non-Xamarin developers that have been recognized by Xamarin for their contributions to the Xamarin community. There are a few minor perks, but primarily it's just a public recognition of good deeds.

    Wednesday, November 18, 2015 8:02 PM
  • User59024 posted

    I happen to think that the sentiments in this thread are overblown (flame me if you want for that), but that has nothing to do with any fear of losing my MVP status or blind allegiance to Xamarin. I just honestly disagree.

    Can you elaborate on which sentiments are overblown? Are you satisfied with the stability of Forms and the communication from Xamarin? @FredyWenger suggestions read as reasonable approaches to solving existing issues, at least great places to start a meaningful conversation.

    Not flaming––trying to wrap my head around it all.

    Wednesday, November 18, 2015 8:21 PM
  • User23660 posted

    Yes and No, I feel somewhat cheated after paying several thousand euro's (Business Licenses, University etc.) to come to the same conclusion as Mark about the Visual Studio plugin. Could have bought the most expensive MacBook instead of the entry model from the savings. Stability is an issue but I have a greater problem with how releases are managed (Stable versions with a higher version number as the Beta), no release dates etc. on the Current Release page and basically no way to create a stable working environment. Not very enterprise minded. It gives me some bad signs about a club of enthusiasts that ship products in an uncoordinated way to solve the most critical customer of that day his/her problem. Having said all this I recognize that I make my living at this moment using a product that shows great promise and somehow delivers a lot no matter what problems. And let's be honest: a lot of the problems come from lack of quality from other players like Apple (never seen an update rate like with xcode for something so critical), Android (en their 15.000plus different versions). Last but not least: the numbers Freddy totaled are useful but what worries me is the total number of 'Need info' that could very well be a lot off questions that are coming from poor understanding of the product or platform (I know I at least entered one that turned out not to be a Xamarin problem). Comes with the growth I assume. But it takes it toll on the service-desk as everyone expects an answer.

    Wednesday, November 18, 2015 8:26 PM
  • User181 posted

    We still don’t have a stable .Forms.

    That's overblown, for one. Forms is stable for some uses. One of the fundamental disconnects between Xamarin and some developers in the community is what Xamarin.Forms should be used for. Xamarin has tried to position Forms as a solution for simple enterprise/forms-based applications and proofs of concept, two use cases for which it is actually pretty reliable. On the other hand, some in the community see a lot of potential in Xamarin.Forms as a solution to much more complex applications, and they are pushing the limits of what it can do (a noble goal, for sure). The problem is that this exposes some rough edges that were not necessarily meant to be exposed.

    Custom renderers are a good example. I think Xamarin in general doesn't want many people writing custom renderers right now. It's a very unpolished part of the product (most of my issues with Forms are in this area). If you do write custom renderers and rely on them heavily to get the results you want in your application then your experience with Forms is going to be much worse than someone who just sticks to what Forms can do out of the box. That will alter your perception of the platform.

    We still have to test our app with every new .forms release and see, which bug’s (maybe) has gone, which new bugs occurs and which “evergreens” have returned.

    This is another thing that I think is overblown because it's consistent with the underlying platforms. Unless Fredy is equally vocal to Apple and Google with each new SDK release then I think he's being unfair. Every major iOS SDK introduces new annoying bugs and (intentional) changes in behavior, and I have to fix my app every time. At the same time, it seems that bugs I report in the iOS SDK are rarely if ever fixed.

    I see two differences between Apple and Xamarin in this respect: 1) Apple has almost no open communication with their developers (it's like a black box); 2) Apple releases major updates only once a year. The first one is clearly an advantage for Xamarin, but you wouldn't know it from this thread. The latter is both good and bad: we get new features and bug fixes more often, but with that comes breakages more often. It's a double-edged sword. I'm not convinced that having fewer releases would be better.

    Overall it just seems like nothing short of a miracle would satisfy some people in this thread. They seem to want releases with a huge number of bug fixes all at once with no new bugs. Software engineering doesn't work that way. We should know better. It's one thing to ask for improvements to regression testing (a very fair criticism), but it's quite another to pull out raw defect metrics with each release and complain that the absolute numbers aren't trending downward. That's not how it works.

    Wednesday, November 18, 2015 8:44 PM
  • User59024 posted

    @AdamKemp Interesting response!

    This probably underlines my inexperience in the field, but my frustration comes a subject your are highlighting. It seems like Xamarin.Forms walks this line of being called “stable” and “beta” simultaneously. There is a notable disparity between the presentation and reality of Xamarin.Forms.

    I think Xamarin in general doesn't want many people writing custom renderers right now. It's a very unpolished part of the product (most of my issues with Forms are in this area). If you do write custom renderers and rely on them heavily to get the results you want in your application then your experience with Forms is going to be much worse than someone who just sticks to what Forms can do out of the box. That will alter your perception of the platform.

    On the www.xamarin.com/forms page, in the section called: “Take full advantage of each platform”, Xamarin states the following:

    Create custom views. Create platform-specific views built with Xamarin.iOS or Xamarin.Android to customize the user interface on each platform.

    This seemingly contradicts what you are saying about custom renderers. If it is the case that we aren’t supposed to be using custom renderers or perhaps the word is “relying” on them, why is advertised as a prominent feature? Given your description and my experiences, it would be much more accurate to describe that as functionality that is "in-progress" or a “beta” feature. But it’s not presented that way. It’s presented as a selling point. "Works, but you shouldn't use it" doesn't seem like the description of a stable feature.

    Here’s another example comparing your assessment with Xamarin’s:

    @AdamKemp:

    Xamarin has tried to position Forms as a solution for simple enterprise/forms-based applications and proofs of concept, two use cases for which it is actually pretty reliable.

    Xamarin.Forms Content:

    Xamarin.Forms are written in C# and allow for rapid prototyping of applications that can evolve over time to complex applications. Because Xamarin.Form applications are native applications, they do not have the limitations of other toolkits such as browser sandboxing, limited APIs, or poor performance.

    and

    This also means it is possible to create applications that will have parts of their user interface created with Xamarin.Forms while other parts are created using the native UI toolkit.

    The caveats that @adamkemp and others note about the platform are 100% apt and are incredibly useful to me when approaching Xamarin.Forms development. I’m really grateful for you and your work. But ultimately your accurate description of Xamarin.Forms is not the one that Xamarin uses and advertises. It’s one you’ve come to understand after experience and presumably wasting some time realizing that certain features do not work as described/advertised.

    Overall it just seems like nothing short of a miracle would satisfy some people in this thread.

    I didn’t get the impression that this thread wanted miracles––while enthusiastic and paranoid at times, I suspect most people here are voicing genuine frustrations and a desire to understand what we can actually expect from the Xamarin.Forms platform (with thoughtful recommendations for improvement to boot). I try to not get too worked up about these things, because at the end of the day I need to get my work done and don’t want to spend a whole day frustrated. The expression “It's a poor craftsman that blames his tools” comes to mind as well.

    Again, I really appreciate the critical response and the work you do throughout the forums and elsewhere @AdamKemp. I’m not well-versed in the distribution process differences between platforms so that’s an interesting point. Let me know if I’m way off-base about any of this.

    Wednesday, November 18, 2015 10:15 PM
  • User65389 posted

    @adamkemp
    I know, that you always feel, that you have to defend Xamarin (for whatever reason), but:

    For instance, Fredy likes to point to the bug count in bugzilla, but that's not a valid way of tracking stability. There are too many confounding factors. For instance, how many of those bugs existed previously but were only recently reported? How many bugs are reported and fixed privately that you never see? Was there a push to report more bugs publicly recently, which would inflate the numbers? What's the severity of those bugs, and how many users do they affect?

    Ahh... I hope you do not mean it seriously...? If over 700 open bugs are no indicator for stability (no matter how much it was, a few months ago) - what else ( (c) by Clooney)

    And.. it's not only the number of bugs, it's also how updates are provided. A good example is V2 right now (I think I don't have to write more...)

    Unless Fredy is equally vocal to Apple and Google with each new SDK release then I think he's being unfair. Every major iOS SDK introduces new annoying bugs and (intentional) changes in behavior, and I have to fix my app every time

    I never had a problem of cause a bug in a new SDK release from Apple or Google (until now :smirk:), but I had various (partial vital) problems of cause Xamarin-Updates.

    Adam, I really respect you and your work for the community (thanks for that one more time) , but sometimes can't understand your thinking.

    Overall it just seems like nothing short of a miracle would satisfy some people in this thread. They seem to want releases with a huge number of bug fixes all at once with no new bugs. Software engineering doesn't work that way.

    If you want to know, how Software engineering should work, you should read the first postings in this thread :smirk: No one expect a miracle, but every one expect a solid work for a paid product. Xamarin has committed in this thread, to set a focus on bug fixing and better communication (without further words)

    I have bought a product for making app's and have to invest (really) more of my time for Xamarin problems as for developing my app. Xamarin should be simply a product to develop software on en efficient way (like e.g. VS). I own a small IT-company and the app is not for pleasure, but to generate income for my company. So, I just want a stable working product... I develop SW since about 30 years and never ever had such problems with another dev product... And... that's a fact!

    I work now over a year with XF and therefore can vote it with my own experience. I still like how XF works (when it works), but I don't like how Xamarin works...

    So... the postings in this thread are definitely not "overblown".

    And...at least... I further think, it's better to post messages like in this thread in a XF-thread as on the internet (I hope you agree in this point..?)

    But I don't want to start an epic discussion here... (fortunately) every human can think what he want :smiley:

    Wednesday, November 18, 2015 10:22 PM
  • User76049 posted

    We (our company) just want an image button that works, better gesture support and stable releases. There is more but you get the idea.

    Through the 1.4.x cycle things improved significantly for release stability but things have regressed recently, I guess the additional hassle of UWP support (very important for us) is putting a strain on things. Stability is important as it affects the rate we get updates from our control vendors.

    A lot of this is about openness with the community.

    The 2.0 release hasn't been handled great and I don't blame the Forms team whatsoever, it looks management/marketing led.

    There's so much that is great about Forms and it's so well suited for enterprise cross platform and other scenarios, but it's hugely frustrating at times.

    I think we're entitled to a moan quite frankly.

    Wednesday, November 18, 2015 11:14 PM
  • User181 posted

    @FredyWenger:

    I know, that you always feel, that you have to defend Xamarin (for whatever reason),

    Again, this is simply not true. I have done plenty of criticizing Xamarin for stability and extensibility issues. I think it's really unfair to say that I always defend Xamarin. I'm honestly just trying to be fair, and I honestly don't think that Xamarin.Forms is being portrayed fairly in this thread. Part of that, again, is that I think some of you are stretching it beyond its intended uses. I don't want to criticize that (honestly, it's cool), but you should know that you're stretching it and set your expectations accordingly. If your app is more than a simple enterprise/forms-based app or a proof of concept then you're doing something more than what Forms is advertised to do.

    I never had a problem of cause a bug in a new SDK release from Apple or Google (until now :smirk:)

    My experience is very different. Every single major iOS SDK release introduces bugs in our apps, and we don't feel comfortable shipping an update linked against a new SDK without doing a full run of our manual test suite (not everything can be automated). The same is true for Android, but we update it less often because it does less good. We pay a lot of the cost upfront for Android because each vendor has made enough modifications of the platform that we can't really trust that it behaves the same on any two devices. Both of these are examples of significant issues with stability across releases or across devices, and I don't think Xamarin is so much different from them that you should be singling them out. Again, I just honestly don't believe that's fair.

    If over 700 open bugs are no indicator for stability (no matter how much it was, a few months ago) - what else ( (c) by Clooney)

    I already pointed out why the raw number doesn't necessarily mean what you claim it means. I'm not going to repeat myself.

    @NMackay:

    We (our company) just want an image button that works, better gesture support and stable releases. There is more but you get the idea.

    1. New features. 2. Fewer bugs. Those two requests are at odds. I think one thing you could very fairly say about Xamarin is that they often try to do too much too quickly, which is what leads to lower stability. But you can't at the very same time ask for even more features. The Forms team is not that big. They can't both deliver new features and make drastic stability improvements.

    @Smaths:

    It seems like Xamarin.Forms walks this line of being called “stable” and “beta” simultaneously.

    I think that only makes sense if you consider "beta" to mean "smaller featureset". It's not yet a hugely powerful, build-anything kind of platform. Google might call it a "beta" for that reason. In terms of stability, though, in my opinion, when used for the simple applications that Xamarin had in mind when they designed (and named) it, it's stable enough to not be called a beta. Is it stable enough? I don't think so. But it's not alpha or beta quality for those use cases.

    I think most of the rest of your post is about whether my portrayal of Xamarin's positioning of Forms matches reality. I do think it's very fair to say that their marketing message is muddled at best. You can see the outline at least of what I'm claiming on the xamarin.com/forms page in the section about which approach is best. That's where they're trying to make it clear that if custom UI is important then Forms isn't the right approach. At the same time, they do make it possible to do custom UI, which is an advantage over similar products.

    I have gone back and forth with a few people at Xamarin about this mixed messaging and the damage I think it causes when leading people down the wrong path. The consistent message I have gotten from them directly is that Forms is appropriate for simple applications or proofs of concept, and repeatedly I have heard that they think that apps that rely heavily on custom renderers are probably not well suited for Forms.

    The fact that this is still not totally clear on their site is frustrating for me. I have tried to convince them that their documentation and marketing materials don't adequately convey that message, and I don't think I have been successful so far. The fact that these discussions still come up (and I can sense already @GeorgeCook preparing to adamantly defend the use of Xamarin.Forms for powerful, beautiful, performant UIs) is a sign that they haven't really made it clear enough what they think Forms should be used for.

    Long term I do think Forms could be a really powerful platform for building any application, but it's not there yet. We're going to have to be patient.

    Wednesday, November 18, 2015 11:51 PM
  • User4685 posted

    Interesting thread here. I just noticed the release of 2.0 Jason posted this morning with updates including some feature, performance improvements and cell recycling. That was more than I was expecting.

    I think we're entitled to a moan quite frankly.

    Yes, with an expensive product it's always good to keep expectations high. Keep pressure on Xamarin to keep on improving Forms, that's a great thing.

    Do I wish it was 10x better, yes most definitely, I wish it was faster and had a bunch more features and controls. Happy to support the community in voicing your concerns to Xamarin where I can.

    Personally I've learnt where Forms can provide value and where I can work around issues.

    Thursday, November 19, 2015 12:03 AM
  • User76049 posted

    @adamkemp

    Adam,

    The bug request is not new, people always ask for it on the forums (even today). The bug is open/reopened and has been for yonks. Gesture support is lacking but shouldn't be, probably has been the highest rated request on the uservoice wish list since 2014.

    I wouldn't class these as new features but features to rival existing products and something lacking from the basic offering.

    I push Forms actively and do my best to assist as I can see it's huge potential, it's just a one way street very often.

    Feel free to move this discussion offline as I have raised it repeatedly within Xamarin and I don't wish to undermine the discussions I've had internally.

    Thursday, November 19, 2015 12:10 AM
  • User55225 posted

    My experience...

    The Bad

    • Communication - Still has lots of room for improvement. That will likely resolve ALOT of chatter. I always enjoy hearing from @MigueldeIcaza as well. :)

    • Quality Control - I tend to stay away from the pre-releases given the random issues that appear. I know that by not testing my own app, its not helpful for the community, but I lose soo much time switching versions only to find issues that take time to debug.

    • Performance - IE ListView, although this has been addressed in the latest release. I just haven't gotten around to upgrading, and will not until the bugs are worked out.

    • iOS, Android and Windows - I must say I can understand why some of this stuff is so difficult to get right. All 3 platforms are continually evolving and I find it intense, yet kinda fun, just to keep up with everything.

    The Good

    • This Forum - The people in THIS forum, seriously are AMAZING! So many many thanks for your time and support. Its greatly appreciated.

    • Customer Success Engineer - Whenever I reach out to my CSE I always get some type of response back, may not be what I want to hear but I get some form of communication back.

    • Stability - For me, Xamarin.Forms has become very stable with the last 1.3-1.4 releases. I started using X.Forms a few months after release and it was very rough for at least the first year. Currently, I do not have any (known) outstanding bugs that will prevent me from going live. Maybe I will find out later after I go live and move forward with marketing, hopefully not. I do use Xamarin.UITest with Specflow to perform BDD testing, which is useful after updating to a new version. I also use Insights to track bugs. Both of which have become extremely helpful in preventing new bugs from creeping in.

    • Custom Renderers - I think its a fantastic way to do things that the platform does not support. Not sure why it is not recommended by some.

    I do wish more people had similar experiences and I REALLY hope that after I go live I do not suddenly have crazy issues.

    All the best, Ant

    Thursday, November 19, 2015 12:16 AM
  • User106639 posted

    @adamkemp

    (and I can sense already @GeorgeCook preparing to adamantly defend the use of Xamarin.Forms for powerful, beautiful, performant UIs) is a sign that they haven't really made it clear enough what they think Forms should be used for.

    You're more or less correct. Although I'm not trying to defend Xamarin Form's use for this; they clearly document it's meant for demos, prototypes or useless applications. However, what I am doing is communicating how sorely disappointed I am that we have a major release with no step toward this whatsoever, despite being told that Xamarin would further open up APIs and provide more mechanisms to facilitate these richer experiences, 4 months ago.

    I'm not the only one who can see more potential in Xamarin Forms than version 1 was marketed for; but my grievance at a lack of evolution in the platform is minor compared to the other points here. A point not to overlook : The way version 2.0 was released was embarrassing at best, and held many of us, paying vast sums of money, and dedicating a large amount of our time in contempt and disregard at worst.

    One of the major benefits of Xamarin, often quoted is the community of developers who go above and beyond to solve one another's problems, produce code examples, and share knowledge : I think much of the point of this thread signifies that Xamarin's good will with such expert developers is going to wear thin, if they keep on acting like growing the user-base is the only goal.

    The underlying issue here, is a feeling that experienced XF developers don't matter : The main objective for Xamarin is new customers.

    Thursday, November 19, 2015 12:26 PM
  • User106639 posted

    This is a total coincidence in timing (publishing this blog post I wrote wasn't scheduled by me); but seeing as Adam pretty much quoted me on "powerful, beautiful, performant UIs), I thought I should list the last part of my blog series here, which went live at noon today.

    It pulls together all the work of the previous 4 posts, and shows how to use Page in Page embedding to create totally unique and wonderful cross platform UIs.

    http://blog.twintechs.com/advanced-xamarin-forms-techniques-for-flexible-and-performant-cross-platform-apps-part-5-page-in-page-embedding

    Of course, Xamarin will not necessarily approve of these techniques; but I have their word that they shan't deprecate them either.

    Thursday, November 19, 2015 7:27 PM
  • User51906 posted

    @GeorgeCook Wow, that looks powerful. You can be sure I'm gonna check this out.

    I want to add something to the topic, too. I'm in no way happy how Xamarin approached us with Forms 2.0 and there can't be a good enough reason to not inform us about it. It looks and feel like a shitty marketing idea. And after looking at the package it's just 1.5.2 -pre2 with another name. Same features, same bugs. I don't know why they did this and I don't want to speculate about it either. At least Xamarin 4.0 is stable and running (on my side).

    @FredyWenger brought up Bugzilla and the count of bugs. Yes, the numbers looking really high. But when you look through those "bugs" a lot of them are a case of RTFM or "bugdescriptions" who just states that something isn't working, without further details and so on. Or they are duplicates. So the "real" number is way smaller. Of course there are bugs that have been reported months ago and haven't seen a fix yet which sucks. I just want to say that this isn't a good reference to look at how stable forms is.

    In overall I'm ok with the stability and performance of Forms. I published 3 Apps completly written in Forms and they're running fast, stable and (almost) bug free. When our users see bugs or crashes those are my fault :)

    But the overall usability on WinPhone is utterly crap... I could release only 1 App out of 3 for WinPhone because of showstopper bugs that are reported for months. I hope that the integration for UWP makes this better.

    I personally think that @adamkemp is right, when he says that a lot of people that complain about Forms are pushing the framework beyond it's intended purpouse. I also think, that there are people who do this, without them even knowing that and then they complain. I use CustomRenderers really often and I almost never have problems with them. And if you stay in the boundaries of Forms there's almost no way to break it (Except bugs).

    @NMackay What are your problems with ImageButton? I added a lot of tweaks to the normal button in on of my apps so PM me and maybe I can help you :)

    Last but not least I'm adding an screenshot to show what you can do with Forms and only 2 CustomRenderers

    Those are just my 2cents.

    Friday, November 20, 2015 11:11 AM
  • User106639 posted

    Cool app. The idea you posted of using very few custom renderers is the same I advocate for. All the uis that I make in tha blog post use ZERO custom renderers outside of a few simple generic views I provide in the library, which would make forms amazing if they were part of the framework.

    Your point is valid. Many people don't know how to use forms and complain about it; but that shouldn't have to invalidate my point, which I hope I've soundly proven, which is people who know what they are doing can do creative things with forms and xamarin should do more to enable those of us doing so.

    Friday, November 20, 2015 11:56 AM
  • User51906 posted

    Thanks :) Actually I got inspired from you in this app with page in page. But I'm doing it in a more complicated way of swapping ContentViews in and out on the left part with the frame and providing some sort of "navigation". I think I'm gonna replace that with your PageViewContainer.

    No, your point is still valid and I would like to do a lot more with Forms. They should open up the API's a lot more. I have some crazy stuff in my mind which I can't do right now. And I'm too lazy to go the non Forms way :P

    Friday, November 20, 2015 12:48 PM
  • User106639 posted

    And I'm too lazy to go the non Forms way :P

    yes! As Napoleon once put it:

    "There are four types of soldiers. The first are the dumb and lazy. These I make my infantrymen. The second are the smart and energetic. These I make my field commanders. The third type are the smart and lazy. These I make my generals."

    Friday, November 20, 2015 7:08 PM
  • User109137 posted

    I couldn't agree more with @AnthonyRamirez. I have the exact same feedback.

    What is really problematic in my opinion, is this « black box » that Xamarin Forms is.

    I don't need to know what's under the box to compile C# for Android or iOS. I trust Xamarin, it's their expertise.

    But when it comes to Forms, it's a framework, and a framework that comes on top of their product. As any framework, it has its bugs, but right now I can't know for sure if a version will fix my bug, if it will impact me and in which way, and more importantly, how it works. So I'm using it, rather blindly, hoping for the best. And I spend hours getting along with it, understanding why this works and this doesn't. Finding ways to do what I need.

    Now I strongly believe it needs to be open-sourced. There are dozens of developpers that enjoy the framework, that believe in it and that would be ready to use their time to improve it. Microsoft did this (for .NET, for their compiler, recently for Azure App Services, …) and it was an incredible source of improvements.

    Please, Xamarin, let us help you in the process of making Xamarin Forms the best framework ever. We share the same goal, and we could be your best asset to achieve this. We could fix these bugs that annoy us. We could point out which line causes a bug when it occurs. We could offer you another point of view, the user point of view.

    I can't see any reason not to do this. Your licenses and your products are the real deal, and Xamarin Forms is a toolkit to convice us to use them. Let us help you stabilizing it, it's a win-win for both of us.

    Please.

    Monday, November 23, 2015 10:26 AM
  • User65389 posted

    @adamkemp: It seems, as we have the same "technical problem" with this thread like in the mid of September... @Paul_Roy has posted today (and also @GeorgeCook and @RaphaelSchindler) before), but the last modify property to the thread is still on Nov. 15. (actually on page 6)

    It would be nice, if you would solve the problem once again. Thanks

    Monday, November 23, 2015 11:14 AM
  • User74 posted

    @FredyWenger, I just tried to find this page by paging through and couldn't locate it, although the search for this page 'how to make forms stable' still works.
    This is the 2nd time this has happened to this thread, where it mysteriously gets buried. Lets hope they manage to resolve the issue again.

    Monday, November 23, 2015 3:39 PM
  • User65389 posted

    @JohnHair: As I wrote, simply the last modify Date + Time isn't modified anymore to this thread (exactly the same as the last time whereby another user has wrote this is a "feature" of the vanille forum to prevent the thread to pop, but Adam said, it was a technical problem, therefore I have mentioned him above). B.t.w. the correct date is Nov. 19 since the thread date + time isn't updated anymore (I have wrote Nov. 15 what is false). Maybe we should create an external blog to prevent such technical problems...

    Monday, November 23, 2015 3:54 PM
  • User181 posted

    I didn't say it was a technical problem. I suggested that it could be an automatic behavior rather than a deliberate behavior. I didn't do anything to "fix" it. I'm not even sure where you see the modified date...

    Regardless, I'm done with this thread. I don't find it useful (to me).

    Monday, November 23, 2015 5:26 PM
  • User65389 posted

    @Adamkemp: Thanks for at least post an answer here :smile:
    O.K. you're out here :smirk:

    Monday, November 23, 2015 5:35 PM
  • User102173 posted

    I remember seeing ~500 bugs listed more than a year ago. Fast forward to today, the number is the same. It seems like Xamarin is introducing new bugs at the rate they are closing the old ones. This makes me believe their testing isn't as robust as one would hope. I'm not sure if Forms will ever be "stable" if things continue this way.

    Monday, February 15, 2016 6:20 PM
  • User65389 posted

    @Mark.9492: Yes! and if you wonder, that this thread don't pop in the .forms forum... Xamarin has prevented it from popping and also has deleted some of my postings to this thread. It's a real shame :-1: :-1: :-1:

    Monday, February 15, 2016 6:35 PM
  • User142042 posted

    You mean that some posts you wrote arent showing here ???

    Tuesday, February 16, 2016 1:39 PM
  • User65389 posted

    @GuyProvost Excactly :disappointed:

    Tuesday, February 16, 2016 2:15 PM
  • User142042 posted

    Dunno what to think... We bet on Xamarin for a project we are working on a friend and I. We are experienced .NET devs (since 2002), but not so much in mobile native development and right now we are really rethinking the way we should have done it. When we tried the sample to see why what we do doesn't work as it should, lots of them doesn't even compile anymore! Looks like Xamarin play a game of catchup behind the Apple and more apparently Google SDKs... And it's a game that Xamarin seems to slowly lose! Maybe we should had swallow the Google and Apple pills back then and go fully native when we started the project! I was expecting Xamarin to be at least a bit supportive on these forums, but the high number of unanswered questions is staggering!

    Sunday, February 21, 2016 6:44 PM
  • User65389 posted

    @GuyProvost: Yes, and it don't becomes better (same as a year ago).
    Therefore, I ask my customer to do the next app maybe with Xamarin-Android only, what should be a lot more stable: http://forums.xamarin.com/discussion/comment/180707/#Comment_180707

    Sunday, February 21, 2016 8:25 PM
  • User142042 posted

    I guess that may explain why everything seems to be stalled!

    weblogs.asp.net/scottgu/welcoming-the-xamarin-team-to-microsoft

    Wednesday, February 24, 2016 7:28 PM
  • User28783 posted

    This might be a good thing for us. I hope they'll put effort to make Xamarin more stable.

    Wednesday, February 24, 2016 8:26 PM
  • User65389 posted

    @MarkMadlangbayan Yes! .Forms can only becomes better :disappointed:

    Thursday, March 10, 2016 9:28 AM
  • User120969 posted

    Forms 2.0 fixed a lot of bugs, bugs that they introduced in Forms 1.5 :(. Forms 2.1 then fixed some bugs but added some far more critical ones in their place, including some fixed way back ~1.3. It's possibly getting worse at the moment.

    Thursday, March 17, 2016 4:18 PM
  • User176749 posted

    Unbelievable, This thread is still hot in 2017 although Xamarin is a Microsoft product now. I guess that Microsoft put his all effort on VS2017 running on Mac as it looks like a copy of Xamarin Studio. What annoys me most is that as a Microsoft developer, as a Windows user I am forced to buy a Mac even I don't want to target IOS using XF. For most of the good features I mostly need mac connector and premium account.

    Friday, January 20, 2017 4:31 PM