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NoSQL against Databases and MVC against ASP.NET forms....... RRS feed

  • Question

  • User-1113217591 posted

    Hello you all,

    I have decided to get something off my mind which bothers me now for sometime.......

    As I have been working in the IT industry for almost 25 years now and see some interesting developments came up past time, know as MVC and NoSQL databases.

    Now as said been around for sometime I have talked with some "newbees" in this industry (less than 5 years) and they are telling me that I am old and dont know anything (off course most of the people in this industry dont like to hear this), however any deeper discussion on these subjects are being carefully avoided, so want to make this a public event ))))

    MVC, new???, from my point of view its back again to the stone age (around 20-25 years back), we where doing this already at that time as objects as now exists did not exist and details definitions were needed to make just a textbox able to view.

    The current systems are being developed by all parties as Microsoft to make our life easier and more comfortable, however as everything this is gone a little to far by calling a object and generate huge amount of codes and fall-overs, exceptions and other nice unneeded stuff in 99,999% of the cases, do we need this.... I dont think so, however if you dont care on all the stuff and have small websites or business application dont bother to much on this, just use it it makes your life less complex and require less knowledge on programming.

    Same story with the nice Visual Studio DnD objects, easy to use for the newbees and can learn of to make a page and dataconnections easy, for making very complex applications, its definetly not the way to go, however I see supprisenly much of these application which are being made by this as "professional" and "made by expert" application......... (this is not the discussion)

    Now a huge promotion on the MVC, this is not new, this is not progress, however give good developers the change to make there own stuff as in the good old days and ws actually never gone, however being used by the "lazy" developers and very unknown customers they have and works perfect.

    History on how his all came to this point is that like any software company we like to make our customers life easy, with in mind the following order microsoft and equals the developers, developers users and users possible their boss, wifs, childer or whatever purpose, this comes to a point that its a chain where everybody likes to make other happy (read: this is commerce, not a techie issue).

    So our big friends as Microsoft developing tools to make our (developers) life easy (I believe it started with the object box with text, check, select and limited other things), this was expended to all other nice to have stuff. Good thing was it really made your life easy, bad thing was you could only do what the things gave as possibilities, so you need to spend a lot of coding to make something you need (believe me always is something). So in short we were starting to create a lot of obsolute code for working with absolute code...... not very logic, but it was cool ))))

    I would like to know the ideas from you guys from newbees till the gray hairy guys like me, I will post later on the ideas on the SQL stuff.

     

     

     

     

     

    Now my sensitive point NoSQL systems

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

    Wednesday, March 27, 2013 4:27 AM

Answers

  • User-1002157272 posted

    I'll weigh in as a newbee lol. :p

    I most definitely haven't been around to see the old days but I do try to educate myself on relavent ways from the old days for the sake of knowing and hey, best way to understand the future is to understand the past.

    The way I see it, back then the entire industry was still evolving, as were the paradigms and patterns and languages. It's all had time to mature. But so has the hardware and the demand. The web is simply ENORMOUS now and the average household machine is just crazy compared to the old hardware. I think the NoSQL movement came about from the need for high perfomance computing and high availability. Take Apache Casandra for example. It is a virtual beast. Your own private database cloud, so to speak. To my knowledge, it is the highest perfoming product of its type. Drawing on the power of what was google big data and the filesystem features of hadoop, its pretty incredible how it works.

    A company like microsoft has a pretty tough task these days. Any new products have to, first and foremost, be a significant advance from previous products/versions, competetive with competitor products, compatible with other current technologies AND be user friendly AND highly configurable for advanced developers needs. That's a hell of a tall order lol. And of course, firms want the most productivity from their developers. Time is money. Big money.

    I realize the mvc pattern is nothing new (glad he didnt stick with Thing-view-controller, doesn't have the same ring to it lol) but microsoft bringing this pattern into a well built framework, drawing on familiar, tried and true platforms of their own is a welcome offering. The timing is just right, as other technologies compliment it well, both microsoft, and other. The big trend right now seems to be platform-agnostic technologies and MVC is definitely doing its best to keep up with it. OAuth for standardized authentication, OData for standardized data transport protocols, websockets for fully-duplex http connections, entity framework for database-agnostic ORM. It's a pretty impressive amount of options.

    I will say this though, and this fits along with part of your original post:

    You won't be seeing the next eBay, facebook, Netflix, etc being built with Asp.Net MVC. Not just yet anyway... ANd it's that same overly user-friendlyness that is the brickwall in that scenario. There's too many intrinsic objects that would get in the way of an enormous web ecosystem of that nature. But in all fairness, Microsoft is trying to help with that as well, by the source code being publicly available. So you could do your own custom, revised build and probably have a base framework that would be a great start for the next eBay, etc.

    And hey, take it easy on us new guys. Some of us, like myself, have a tremendous amount of respect for the programmers that have been around since the old days.  :)    lol

    • Marked as answer by Anonymous Thursday, October 7, 2021 12:00 AM
    Saturday, April 6, 2013 1:36 AM

All replies

  • User197322208 posted

    Now a huge promotion on the MVC, this is not new, this is not progress

    Please make testability on webforms.

    Wednesday, March 27, 2013 12:09 PM
  • User-1113217591 posted

    Hi, I know the difference between the two, they point I try to catch is that new is not always so new as it seems to be as for newbees, yes I understand its "innovative" but when you already 20 years in the industry, its just the good old days, brought nicer and in a great VS 2012.

    MVC takes away all the fuzz on overhead on coding which ASP unfortunatly has.

     

     

    Wednesday, March 27, 2013 12:26 PM
  • User197322208 posted

    I have 16 years on industry. And no one said me that I'm old.

    I try to catch is that new is not always so new as it seems to be as for newbees

    Yes and no. For example, Azure Data Tables is quite different from ISAM databases.

    Likewise, MVC is rather different from ASP ( and from ASP.NET)

    Wednesday, March 27, 2013 3:36 PM
  • User-1113217591 posted

    ))), nobody says that

    Following subject is the DB structures, to go to the point I have worked with textfile systems which have to much incommon with the NoSQL propoganda, off course there can be a huge discussion on this that its not but still, DB systems like SQL, Oracle came to live thru the messy structure and (from my point of view) huge security issue. xml DB is a good structure I think, however I have talked with a developer which is planning to develop a full corperate system with this, from my point of view a very bad idea, but everybody his needs )))

    On the MVC versus ASP versus ASPX I agree they total different, but point is that we going back to making by ourself objects because to avoid load, pretty sure the "tooling" market will burse MVC soon with handy plugins

     

     

     

    Wednesday, March 27, 2013 3:49 PM
  • User-1002157272 posted

    I'll weigh in as a newbee lol. :p

    I most definitely haven't been around to see the old days but I do try to educate myself on relavent ways from the old days for the sake of knowing and hey, best way to understand the future is to understand the past.

    The way I see it, back then the entire industry was still evolving, as were the paradigms and patterns and languages. It's all had time to mature. But so has the hardware and the demand. The web is simply ENORMOUS now and the average household machine is just crazy compared to the old hardware. I think the NoSQL movement came about from the need for high perfomance computing and high availability. Take Apache Casandra for example. It is a virtual beast. Your own private database cloud, so to speak. To my knowledge, it is the highest perfoming product of its type. Drawing on the power of what was google big data and the filesystem features of hadoop, its pretty incredible how it works.

    A company like microsoft has a pretty tough task these days. Any new products have to, first and foremost, be a significant advance from previous products/versions, competetive with competitor products, compatible with other current technologies AND be user friendly AND highly configurable for advanced developers needs. That's a hell of a tall order lol. And of course, firms want the most productivity from their developers. Time is money. Big money.

    I realize the mvc pattern is nothing new (glad he didnt stick with Thing-view-controller, doesn't have the same ring to it lol) but microsoft bringing this pattern into a well built framework, drawing on familiar, tried and true platforms of their own is a welcome offering. The timing is just right, as other technologies compliment it well, both microsoft, and other. The big trend right now seems to be platform-agnostic technologies and MVC is definitely doing its best to keep up with it. OAuth for standardized authentication, OData for standardized data transport protocols, websockets for fully-duplex http connections, entity framework for database-agnostic ORM. It's a pretty impressive amount of options.

    I will say this though, and this fits along with part of your original post:

    You won't be seeing the next eBay, facebook, Netflix, etc being built with Asp.Net MVC. Not just yet anyway... ANd it's that same overly user-friendlyness that is the brickwall in that scenario. There's too many intrinsic objects that would get in the way of an enormous web ecosystem of that nature. But in all fairness, Microsoft is trying to help with that as well, by the source code being publicly available. So you could do your own custom, revised build and probably have a base framework that would be a great start for the next eBay, etc.

    And hey, take it easy on us new guys. Some of us, like myself, have a tremendous amount of respect for the programmers that have been around since the old days.  :)    lol

    • Marked as answer by Anonymous Thursday, October 7, 2021 12:00 AM
    Saturday, April 6, 2013 1:36 AM