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<o:> in Microsoft Expression Web 4 RRS feed

  • Question

  • Lately, I have been having problems with Expression. In the HTML coding, <o:> has been showing up in the HTML coding but I'm doing everything that I normally do. When I bold something it appears like <o:strong> instead of <strong> or my indented bullets look like <o:li><o:ul>. Does anyone know why this is happening? Please help!
    Wednesday, October 10, 2012 6:55 PM

All replies

  • Never heard of that happening.  The only time tags beginning with <o: appear, in my experience, is when  Word is used to create HTML code, which adds non-standard proprietary garbage.


    • Edited by KathyW2 Wednesday, October 10, 2012 7:11 PM
    Wednesday, October 10, 2012 7:05 PM
  • What Kathy said. That sounds as if you have been copying and pasting content from Word (or another MS Office app) into your pages. This is a very bad idea, as it brings in Word's truly crappy, non-standard, proprietary markup.

    For example, to demonstrate this I just copied this phrase...

    Feb            Super Bowl Chili   Cook-off

    from a newsletter calendar article in Word. When it was pasted into a document in EW, it produced this markup...

    <p class="auto-style1"><span>Feb&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
                       Super Bowl Chili&nbsp;&nbsp; Cook-off<o:p></o:p></span></p>

    As you can see, not only did it add those "<o:" prefixes, it created a nasty auto-style, which, when examined, turned out to be this really terrible CSS...

    .auto-style1 {
       font-size: 11.0pt;
       font-family: Calibri;
       margin-left: 0in;
       margin-right: 0in;
       margin-top: 0in;
       margin-bottom: .0001pt;
    }

    Points (pt) are a print measure, equivalent to 1/72 of an inch. Inches have no meaning whatsoever in Web displays, which may range from 320 x 480 smartphones up to 2580 x 1800, 30" monitors. And .0001pt(!) is completely meaningless. Furthermore, "Calibri" is not a font-family, but a single font, and one which may not even exist in a non-Windows machine, phone, or tablet.

    If you must copy and paste content from Word (or anywhere, really), copy as normal, then click once wherever you want the text to go (to place the text cursor), then click "Edit|Paste Text..." and in the dialog which appears, select "Normal paragraphs with line breaks." You may still have some cleaning up to do (excess &nbsp;, for example), but you won't bring in all that garbage styling from Word.

    cheers,
    scott



    Please remember to "Mark as Answer" the responses that resolved your issue. It is common courtesy to recognize those who have helped you, and it also makes it easier for visitors to find the resolution later.

    Wednesday, October 10, 2012 7:37 PM
  • Thanks for your help! I realized I was copying and pasting text directly from Word instead of copying the text into Notepad and then pasting into Expression. 
    Wednesday, October 10, 2012 7:41 PM
  • Like Scott & Kathy the only times I've seen anything starting with <o:xxx> is when content was pasted in from some Office application.

    Free Expression Web Tutorials
    For an Expression Web forum with without the posting issues try expressionwebforum.com

    Wednesday, October 10, 2012 7:41 PM
  • If you are using EW V4 the WordPaste add-in from the Expression Gallery will clean up content pasted from Word and retain the formatting from the Word document.

    http://gallery.expression.microsoft.com/WordPasteSP2

    HTH


    Ian Haynes

    EW - V4 Add-Ins
    EW - Resources, hints and tips
    EW - Design for the Mobile Web
    expression(web.blog)


    • Edited by Ian Haynes Thursday, October 11, 2012 8:35 AM
    Wednesday, October 10, 2012 9:39 PM
  • To remove the word formatting when pasting, click Edit > Paste > Text only.

    Expression Web MVP

    Thursday, October 11, 2012 12:03 AM
  • To remove the word formatting when pasting, click Edit > Paste > Text only.

    Expression Web MVP

    ???

    Hunh? What version are you using? In EW4, under "Edit," you have either "Paste" or "Paste Text..." Choosing "Paste" immediately pastes whatever is on the clipboard into the position of the text cursor. There is no "Text only" option offered. This results in exactly the same junk markup being pasted as I described in my post above.

    The only way to be offered any options is to use "Paste Text..." which does provide a dialog with choices.

    cheers,
    scott


    Please remember to "Mark as Answer" the responses that resolved your issue. It is common courtesy to recognize those who have helped you, and it also makes it easier for visitors to find the resolution later.

    Thursday, October 11, 2012 1:22 AM
  • select from the edit menu "paste text..." this gives you a dialogue box with the options of, among other things, first "plain text" (no paragraph or line breaks, spaces instead) and ,"normal paragraphs without line breaks" which is preferred.

    The removal of the insert file feature (even for text files) is one of the more unpleasant surprises I've found with IE4, although I understand the desire to avoid messy code.  Another example of Microsoft Nanny. :-) ;


    • Edited by LaoWombat Sunday, October 14, 2012 12:17 PM
    Sunday, October 14, 2012 12:16 PM
  • It's not Miscrosoft Nanny, any more than spell-check is Microsoft Nanny. That's how software is supposed to work--it's supposed to help to prevent you from making mistakes and it is an aid in automating processes to save you time--and avoid not only messy code, but code that could display improperly.

    What Insert File feature was removed? EW will insert any file that browsers can display. It's right there on the Insert menu. If they can't display it natively, then, no, EW won't let you. All MS did was to change the menu. The old Insert File worked the same for text or Word documents as the Paste text... command does.


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    Sunday, October 14, 2012 12:59 PM
  • I am running EW4, purchased a few months ago.  There is NO file command on the insert menu.  It was there in earlier versions.  You can insert a picture file, as a file but that's it.

    see http://www.expression-web-tutorials.com/images/insert-css-menu.jpg

    Monday, October 15, 2012 1:08 AM
  • I said "EW will insert any file that browsers can display." Browsers can't display text files or Word files natively. Insert File did not do what you thought it did. It did not actually insert a file.

    The Insert File command that you miss from, say EW2, is EXACTLY the same as Edit, Paste Text when you insert a text file. Exactly--with the exact same options that you listed for Paste Text. All they did was rename it and put it on the Edit menu.

    If you tried to insert a Word document with Insert File, the old command did not actually insert that document. Rather, it converted it to very, very outdated inline stylings (that even EW2 flagged as out of date and told you to use "newer constructs", and which it repeated for each paragraph) that were worse than anything offered in Paste Text, especially since the styles used didn't display consistently in different browsers.

    Edit, Paste Text gives you what you think is missing, just in a different place and more standards-compliant.

    "You can insert a picture file, as a file but that's it." Wrong. On the Insert menu is also Media, which allow you to choose from different media that will play in the browser--Flash, Silverlight, Deep Zoom, etc.


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    Monday, October 15, 2012 2:06 AM
  • At the risk of beating a seriously decomposing horse, no.

    Insert --> file allowed you to insert the contents of a file WITHOUT opening the file, copying the text and then pasting it.  It is different.  Similar but not "EXACTLY" the same.

    Insert --> picture --> file is the only one that mentions inserting a "file" as part of the options.  Of course you can insert a whole bunch of other things.

    I take back what I said about microsoft nanny, I have a new candidate <grin>

    Monday, October 15, 2012 12:11 PM
  • "Insert --> picture --> file is the only one that mentions inserting a "file" as part of the options.  Of course you can insert a whole bunch of other things."

    Just because it doesn't say "file" on the menu doesn't mean the other things aren't dealing with files you will be using to display content on your page.  They're just not files that are intended to be displayed as text or as a static image on the page.  They each involve files of different types.

    I won't argue with your other point.  Now, for me it's not an important one, since I never would accept the result of "insert Word file" anyway, but yes, it's a difference for you.

    Monday, October 15, 2012 8:44 PM
  • Part of the problem for me is that I am using a textbook that is based on the older versions of the software, and that does ask the students to do things like inserting a text file, opening a word file and then pasting text, etc, and stressing that you do it in such a way that wayward formatting does not get carried over from the word file.

    My students are using version 2 at the college, but via dreamspark at home the can only get the latest version, so there is a bit of a disconnect between what they do in class and what they do at home.

    I looked for a suitable textbook for version 4 thinking that I would ask the college to upgrade to version 4, but then when I could not find one (and very few reference guides to 4) I googled and when I saw articles like "Expression Web deathwatch" I could see why. 

    Too bad, it does not seem as bad compared to its contemporaries as FP was, but...

    As a basic web authoring tool it seems to me to have pricing and learning curve advantages over dreamweaver but...

    Thursday, October 18, 2012 3:41 AM
  • Nobody but noobs pay any attention to the nonsequitor-ridden Expression Web deathwatch, which the author himself says at the beginning is "This Deathwatch is a bit of fun, so don't get your CSS in a bunch :-) "

    EW 4 was released in June 2010 and he started the deathwatch 6 months later. Just because he doesn't like certain things doesn't mean that EW is dead--but he claims otherwise.

    He goes off on nonsensical tangents like "Expression Web never reached the ease-of-use of FrontPage and never added updated theme/template/front-end builder functionality (i.e. integrating with popular content management systems like WordPress and Drupal or offering easy Web forms and auto navigation capabilities)." Front Page and Drupal and WordPress in the same breath? Seriously? That's ridiculous. The fact that it doesn't integrate with WP and Drupal is immaterial and a sign of exactly nothing.

    Likewise, cancelling MIX indicates nothing. MIX wasn't about Expression Web; it was about "all things Web and design", and MS has lots and lots of programs involved in the Web area and has said that it plans a revamp of all the similar efforts (like Build). So something will take the place of a number of these conferences.

    He cites the fact that "Expression Web 4 was released June, 2010. Two service packs were released in 2011, the last one in July, 2011." as a sign of impending death, but ignores the fact that EW is newer than MS's flagship Office suite. He also ignores the fact that while Adobe has nothing better to do than work on its apps, MS is rolling out the biggest change in OSes since the switch fron Windows 3.1 to 95. And they have pulled people off of lots of teams to work on Windows 8. There are lots of MS programs that haven't been updated recently (possibly because they just don't need to be).

    Nobody knows what MS will do with anything, and it's pointless to speculate. It could be that they decide to merge EW and VWD into one program; who knows? Who cares? MS has a huge investment in Web tecnologies, and I'll bet they won't cede the design end to Dreamweaver (especially since Dreamweaver has no support for ASP.NET). But who knows? I just don't care. I use EW4 and it does what I need, so much so that I haven't used Dreamweaver in months.


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    Thursday, October 18, 2012 4:49 AM
  • "when I saw articles like "Expression Web deathwatch" I could see why"

    There is no reason in the world to assume than just because you found it on the web, it's true.

    I could write a very convincing blog about Dreamweaver's bugs and its pending death.   Should anyone believe me?  No.  I don't even use Dreamweaver.  But a search of a Dreamweaver user forum would give me plenty of fodder, and my imagination could do the rest.

    Thursday, October 18, 2012 5:03 AM
  • Can anyone suggest a textbook for expression web 4 suitable for use in a community college?  For three and earlier versions, there are several, but 4 has generated a small handful of reference guides or teach yourself books like the SAMS books but no true textbooks that I could find.  I Recommend the latter to my students for reference, but the textbook publishers (Cengage and others) seem to be ignoring EW4, although I would love to be proved wrong.

    And please just respond with the title of a book.  Thank you.

    Saturday, October 20, 2012 12:45 AM
  • How about giving us the title of what you are using now? I was a teacher (electronics, mathematics, programming and digital tech/robotics, etc.) for a little over four years before returning to industry because the pay was better (lots better, although I did love teaching), and I can imagine writing a syllabus and creating quizzes, projects, and exams based upon any of several books I've seen.

    Or are you looking only for something that comes with a teacher's guide, student workbooks, lab manuals, progress quizzes, exams, etc. already written?

    I agree that the dichotomy between textbooks based upon one version and student software which is a much newer version might be insupportable, if there were great differences in the versions. OTOH, I have to say that frankly, if I were teaching that course, I would simply note the very few places where the UI is different between EW2 and EW4, and inform the students of what to expect when you get to those areas of the text. There aren't really that many differences.

    For that matter, you say that you can find options available for EW3 ("For three and earlier versions, there are several..."), and there are very few differences between EW3's interface and that of EW4, right down to the ugly, dark, "Expression Goth" interface colors. So, if you can find texts to your liking for EW3, why not adopt one of them?

    cheers,
    scott


    Please remember to "Mark as Answer" the responses that resolved your issue. It is common courtesy to recognize those who have helped you, and it also makes it easier for visitors to find the resolution later.

    • Proposed as answer by LaoWombat Saturday, October 20, 2012 2:47 AM
    Saturday, October 20, 2012 1:18 AM
  • I wrote my own. :) Though if you have an EW 3 textbook that you like then you really only need to add supplemental material on the improved code snippets and custom toolbar. The other changes are more in the nature of under the hood improvements.

    Free Expression Web Tutorials
    For an Expression Web forum with without the posting issues try expressionwebforum.com

    Saturday, October 20, 2012 1:39 AM
  • EW4 is so like EW3 that you could easily work with an EW3 book. The big changes in capability and menu layout were between EW2 and EW3.

    The bigger question, though, is: are you teaching the principles of Web Design or just teaching the program itself? If you are teaching Web Design, a text that focuses on EW is a poor choice. The tool is secondary to the concepts of HTML and CSS.

    The Julie Riley book, Microsoft Expression Web 3: Illustrated Complete starts right off by saying that as they went to press MS released EW4 and they keystroked every part of the book in EW4 and have a section that notes the very few differences in the instructions (EW4 came out very quickly after EW3, which may be why there are few EW4-specific books). On the downside, they have an entire Unit on Behaviours--the horribly outmoded holdovers from Front Page. But they do have full color illustrations on how to start the program from the Task Bar and Start Button (!) (seems like there is a good bit of filler in that book if that's how they start).

    The Shelly/Campbell/Rivers book Microsoft Expression Web 3 Complete (Cengage) also has a section on EW4 and the minor differences, so you'd be safe using either book for EW4. but this book has a section on using frames and tables to lay out a page--two things nobody does any more, so I would skip that. The problem with Shelly is that he teaches programs, not concepts. His real expertise is Office (I've taught from those books), so I don't know how he'd do with EW.

    But you're the teacher, buy some books and test them out. I found out about the EW4 content of both these books by using Google. Try it; do some research.


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    Saturday, October 20, 2012 1:51 AM

  • Right now I am using

    Microsoft Expression Web Introductory by Julie Riley
    http://www.amazon.com/s?ie=UTF8&keywords=1423905490&page=1&rh=n%3A283155%2Ck%3A1423905490

    I teach the design portion using the Webstyleguide website, and online material from Nielsen,  http://designofsites.com/

    Steve Krug's book, etc. I an the other person teaching the course use web authoring software so they can generate product and get a sense of things.  In the next course they learn html, js etc.

    For my intro class I prefer something with a step by step approach.  Since the college is using EW1 or 2 (I forget which), but the book works with it, so that's it.

    I hear what you and others are saying about ew3 and its relation to 4.  But I am not yet satisfied that it is worthwhile to go through the time and cost of upgrading the college to EW4 if it is "also-ran" in web authoring software. I am not saying it is, but the issues I have cited have raised questions for me.

    At the moment I am comfortable with simply pointing out the differences between the versions for those using EW4 and what we see in class.

    The snarky and condescending comments I am getting from some here are of minimal help, but I have just started my research and several of the more recent comments and been cogent and to the point.

    @Pearson

    Please Don't bother to reply to this, if I wanted usenet responses I would look into time travel ;-)


    Saturday, October 20, 2012 2:47 AM
  • " if it is "also-ran" in web authoring software"

    That would be a very wrong conclusion.  What issue made you think that?

    Saturday, October 20, 2012 3:43 AM
  • BTW...  If you are doing a lot of pasting from MS Word into HTML, I really like this product:

    http://convertwordtohtml.com/

    I have nothing to do with this company, other than I use the software, but I find that it makes it really simple to convert docs to HTML.

    Peter

    Saturday, October 20, 2012 9:27 AM
  • First, I'm really appalled at this attitude from a professor. We've seen some pretty horrible instructors on my Dreamweaver group but this arrogant <q style="color:red;">"  But I am not yet satisfied that it is worthwhile to go through the time and cost of upgrading the college to EW4 if it is "also-ran" in web authoring software. I am not saying it is, but the issues I have cited have raised questions for me."</q>

    I have yet to see a program that didn't have negative comments from someone or another. You haven't taken the time to learn how the program works and when people have explained where some of the stuff you don't like came from and how to avoid it that is "snarky".

    Spring 2006 I was speaking at a conference in Florida of mostly community college instructors on EW 1 which had just come out. In the hands on lab there were 90 teachers. Based on the questions asked during that lab/presentation there were 2-3 teachers who were sending their students out with marketable skills. The majority were teaching such antiquated methods that I would spend more time trying to get them to unlearn what they had been taught that they would never be hired by my company or the ones that I worked with.

    Assuming your school like every other one I'm aware of uses Academic Alliance versions of software for the school there IS NO ADDITIONAL cost.

    Second, you state that your school is using EW 1 or 2 but don't know which?  Just how familiar are you with the program you are teaching? Both versions had a lot of Office code for backwards compatibility with FrontPage and its Office integration. After two versions that was no longer a high priority with newer versions. Plus Microsoft wanted better integration with the rest of the Expression Studio.

    There was complete rewrite of the underlying code base between Expression Web 3 and the earlier two versions. That caused more than a few bugs and issues along with a lot of user dissatisfaction. Which is exactly why anyone who purchased Expression Web free at retail received a FREE upgrade to version 4. Everyone has acknowledged, including Microsoft that Expression Web 3 was released before it was ready but it was required to be released at the same time as Blend 3 and the rest of the suite.  Expression Web 4 is what Expression Web 3 should have been.

    What will happen with Expression Web 5 who knows but perhaps it won't the problem child that Expression Web 3 was because there will be more time between releases. In the meantime, there have been not one but two service packs released for Expression Web 4. SP 2 includes new function, something you don't normally see in service packs. You certainly won't see features added to Dreamweaver. I've had discussions with folks from Adobe about why and been told it has to do with taxes and accounting so you get frequently paid upgrades. As a Dreamweaver user unless you use mobile there was nothing worth spending even a dime to upgrade CS 5 to 5.5. If you used mobile there was enough to be worth a few dollars but not the upgrade price offered. I skipped 5.5 for that reason.

    As for Steve Krug's book be specific, the original from 2005 or the sequel. I prefer Jarad Spool to Neilson http://www.uie.com/ I do hope you are also addressing accessibility http://www.knowbility.org/ not just UX. But then hey, I'm courteous enough to make my links both readable instead of huge bold run together type and clickable. (Yes, that is a bit snarky but then that's what I'm responding to


    Free Expression Web Tutorials
    For an Expression Web forum with without the posting issues try expressionwebforum.com

    Saturday, October 20, 2012 3:21 PM
  • I hear what you and others are saying about ew3 and its relation to 4.  But I am not yet satisfied that it is worthwhile to go through the time and cost of upgrading the college to EW4 if it is "also-ran" in web authoring software. I am not saying it is, but the issues I have cited have raised questions for me.

    I don't know just what you think the alternatives might be, but those of us who actually work in this profession know that the only competition to EW in the professional sphere is Dreamweaver. And, as a user of DW since DW MX, all the way up to DW CS6, I can tell you that it can't touch EW in usability and productivity.

    I have used EW since version 2, all the way up to EW4 SP2, which means that I have watched the release of DW CS3 through DW CS6, and at no point have I yet been tempted to change my current pattern of using EW for about 75% to 85% of my production work. It would probably be 100%, if not for a number of free and commercial extensions I have for DW that make certain tasks easier. (3rd-party extensions are the one area in which DW holds a clear advantage over EW.)

    In point of fact, if it were not for the fact that DW comes along for the ride with the Adobe Design Premium Suites that I have purchased, I would have probably stopped acquiring it after CS4, since it has offered me nothing to recommend its use over EW. And, for those who must purchase their editors in the real world when they leave school, the 400% price delta between EW and DW makes the choice a no-brainer.

    So, even if EW4 is the last version (which I seriously doubt, given MS's avowed focus on the Web and mobile technologies in both it's OS and its new hardware products), it is still a very productive, easy to use tool, the use of which for teaching Web design principles does your students no disservice whatsoever. Frankly, I see no reason not to adopt EW4 for your purposes.

    cheers,
    scott


    Please remember to "Mark as Answer" the responses that resolved your issue. It is common courtesy to recognize those who have helped you, and it also makes it easier for visitors to find the resolution later.

    Saturday, October 20, 2012 6:53 PM
  • Expression Web is now available as a free download from the Microsoft Download Center, and no new versions will be developed.  Customers who previously purchased Expression Web will receive support through the established support lifecycle"

    Instead?  What comes next (as an affordable web design tool)? Webmatrix2 or is it too lightweight?

    Thursday, February 21, 2013 7:04 PM
  • Discussions on the free download, EW4 being EW's last versions, etc. have been extensive, and done far more recently than this thread. That is not the subject of this thread.
    Thursday, February 21, 2013 7:38 PM
  • Yeah but since this was where I was slagged mostly for wondering about this, and since a quick look at the forum didn't turn up anything...

    Thanks for your help.

    Thursday, February 21, 2013 7:55 PM