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Is the feedback in these forums actually going to affect the beta?

    General discussion

  • I have a genuine question. Is the feedback in these forums actually going to affect the beta?

    I mean I don't want to be provided just lip service. Are there any actual developers and teams working on Windows 8 who are monitoring these forums and listening to the most vocal feedback and changing some core design decisions? Or are we just wasting our time? The effect of the most vocal feedback with several replies and comments, here and on the B8 blog, has to be visible in the upcoming Windows 8 beta, right? I see no way to directly interact or communicate through to any of the Windows teams at Microsoft. I see no replies from any Windows team members, developers or PMs, just support staff who are telling us to wait until the beta, they can't say anything concrete as to what will change.

    I am, for some technical fault in the Developer preview, unable to send feedback using the Send Feedback Tool. It tells me to install the Live ID Sign in Assistant even though Windows 8 already has one built-in. I did try installing the downloadable one still no go. At this point, I cannot do a restore/refresh/reset or reinstall just to make the feedback tool working again without any guarantee that it will work.

    Wednesday, November 30, 2011 6:45 PM

All replies

  • This is just a view based on a few days on this forum.

    The management will have an agenda over what Windows 8 will look like and what it must achieve (the way in which it works). The development team must code Windows 8 to achieve those aims and no outside influences will sway this direction. I get the impression that any desktop improvements from W7 are minor compared to the real aim of introducing a common OS and user interface for phones, pads, laptops and finally desktop computers. Microsoft will then control all software applications. It could be argued that the desktop is an exception to this but bear in mind that most current software needs to be certified and it is but a small step to charge for this.

    Developing in accordance with management's wishes is no easy task and that is where Windows Developer preview comes in. What it is meant to do is test the creation and implementation of Metro style apps. Discussion about that seems to be minimal compared with general discussion about the UI of Windows 8 and the interaction between Metro and the desktop. So the developers have created the cause and will be looking for the effects, some of which may not have been anticipated. IMO then, there may well be some changes based on users reactions provided these do not interfere with the management agenda.

    Do not forget that other effects being monitored are those in the computer itself. Should common errors be experienced by a significant portion of the user base, then those errors will also be being dealt with.

    Sure we need to, and I think we have, got our opinions across and it remains to be seen whether it makes a difference. Now I think I will wait for the beta.

    At the end of the day if nothing changes I can always stay with W7.

    Wednesday, November 30, 2011 9:16 PM
  • Probably not.  Someone please correct me if I'm wrong but Win8 is supposed to be feature complete by beta 1.  It's expected that Microsoft will announce Win8 beta 1 at CES 2012 and CES 2012 is only a month away. They're unlikely to make any significant changes this late in the game.
    Wednesday, November 30, 2011 10:04 PM
  • Some changes are already being discussed at the blog Building Windows 8 An inside look from the Windows Engineering team.
    Irfan
    Thursday, December 01, 2011 1:56 AM
  • I've been following that blog for quite some time.  It purports to be an open dialogue between Microsoft and its customers, but it's anything but.  If you bring up any legitimate concern, it just gets ignored.

    • Edited by I-DotNET Thursday, December 01, 2011 2:03 AM Grammar
    Thursday, December 01, 2011 2:02 AM
  • If you're that curioius, you can ask Steven Sinofsky. Go to blogs.msdn.com/b8 and select "Email Blog Author."
    Thursday, December 01, 2011 3:19 AM
  • The immediate purpose of WDP is not only to give a chance to the developers to develop metro-style applications for Windows 8 but also to utilize this opportunity to get feedback from the early installers via error reports and the many comments that users have to make on its performance. Why else would any software manufacturer release a Beta and RC versions of its software and distribute it for free if not to get valuable feedback on the same? I have noticed remarkable improvement in the performance of Windows 7 since its release as a Beta.

    If you read blogs at blogs.msdn.com/b8 carefully, you will notice Microsoft takes into account immense amount of feedback data it got from the end users as well as experts, it may come from the error reports, blogs, seminars and from direct interaction with the hardware vendors. In fact, I am impressed by the vast statistical data they have at their disposal to base their decisions on.


    Irfan
    Thursday, December 01, 2011 9:09 AM
  • Why else would any software manufacturer release a Beta and RC versions of its software and distribute it for free if not to get valuable feedback on the same? I have noticed remarkable improvement in the performance of Windows 7 since its release as a Beta.

    If you read blogs at blogs.msdn.com/b8 carefully, you will notice Microsoft takes into account immense amount of feedback data it got from the end users as well as experts, it may come from the error reports, blogs, seminars and from direct interaction with the hardware vendors. In fact, I am impressed by the vast statistical data they have at their disposal to base their decisions on.


    Irfan
    My personal experience for Windows 7 and Vista is that Microsoft only takes feedback into account to fix minor bugs. Feedback isn't used to make design changes in the OS when something is designed totally wrong or influence management decisions. Which isn't ideal.

    To give some examples, take the case of the ribbon in Explorer which most people disapprove of from the 1000+ comments on the Explorer blog post and the blogosphere. Or the whole Metro UI being the default on desktops/laptops.
    Thursday, December 01, 2011 9:19 AM
  • Hi xpclient,

    why do you think Microsoft is trying to take the risk to make a shift to the Tiled/ Metro version despite the immense success of the traditional desktop version of Windows7? Do you think it was not a calculated risk based on solid market feedback ?  We all are  aware of the growing market for Touch Screens in Tablets, phones and cloud based applications. Every decision is data based and data can only be had through actual feedbacks from millions of Windows users and market surveys.  


    Irfan
    • Edited by Irfanfare Thursday, December 01, 2011 2:05 PM to complete the reply
    Thursday, December 01, 2011 9:42 AM
  • As you can see Microsoft Support Engineers and other people from Windows Team are monitoring this forum and answer questions. Design and buid Windows 8 is complicated task and will done with reviewing many things and analyze and design and requirement elicitation. Issues here will be monitor but there is NO guarantee that they would effect, but if it makes scense it might consider. There are several sources that been use when it comes to Windows 8 Development , this forum is one of them and others are feedbacks from other Microsoft Customer, Partners and other people and other forums .
    Thursday, December 01, 2011 2:03 PM
  • I have a genuine question. Is the feedback in these forums actually going to affect the beta?

    I mean I don't want to be provided just lip service. Are there any actual developers and teams working on Windows 8 who are monitoring these forums and listening to the most vocal feedback and changing some core design decisions? Or are we just wasting our time? The effect of the most vocal feedback with several replies and comments, here and on the B8 blog, has to be visible in the upcoming Windows 8 beta, right? I see no way to directly interact or communicate through to any of the Windows teams at Microsoft. I see no replies from any Windows team members, developers or PMs, just support staff who are telling us to wait until the beta, they can't say anything concrete as to what will change.

    I am, for some technical fault in the Developer preview, unable to send feedback using the Send Feedback Tool. It tells me to install the Live ID Sign in Assistant even though Windows 8 already has one built-in. I did try installing the downloadable one still no go. At this point, I cannot do a restore/refresh/reset or reinstall just to make the feedback tool working again without any guarantee that it will work.


    The obvious answer is that "Microsoft is monitoring this board and values your input and will take the feedback into consideration".  However, in reality if I had to guess, I'd say they are not that interested in what you or I think and user feedback isn't that important in the design and functionality of Windows 8.  It seems they value "telemetry" data more than real world user feedback and my guess is that almost nothing will change when the beta, and then RTM, come out that there still will be no usable Start Menu in the Desktop interface, you won't have to option to boot into the Desktop Interface and still be forced into using Metro.  Metro will still be as ugly and boring as it is right now with giant, flat 2d squares as your menu system.  Metro apps will get suspended if they are not in the foreground.  You won't be able to run a Metro app in a window.  Aero won't be fully implemented into the Desktop Interface.  And Windows Explorer will continue to be as dumbed down as it is now.

    I do have hopes that things will improve with Windows 8 though, but I see little reason to continue to post concerns here or give feedback as it just seems to go into a black hole.

     

    Thursday, December 01, 2011 2:37 PM
  • As you can see Microsoft Support Engineers and other people from Windows Team are monitoring this forum and answer questions.

    They are certainly not answering this one.
    By that I mean giving an indication as to if or what might be changed.
    • Edited by d r h Thursday, December 01, 2011 3:02 PM
    Thursday, December 01, 2011 2:58 PM
  • As you can see Microsoft Support Engineers and other people from Windows Team are monitoring this forum and answer questions.

    They are certainly not answering this one.
    By that I mean giving an indication as to if or what might be changed.

    Ha! When are they going to answer this one?

    http://social.msdn.microsoft.com/Forums/en-US/windowsdeveloperpreviewgeneral/thread/b4bbd63f-b4e0-4be9-974f-cd969fefaec1

    It's been two months and still no answer.

    Thursday, December 01, 2011 3:27 PM
  • I doubt this, see the ignorance of Sinofsky in the b8 blog:

    "We've seen some small amount of visceral feedback focused on "choice" or "disable"—a natural reaction to change"

    With the experience of Win7 and older Office Betatests, I think he ignores still feedback as he always did.


    "A programmer is just a tool which converts caffeine into code"

    Thursday, December 01, 2011 3:48 PM
  • It's the condescending attitude that gets me.  Nevermind his argument makes no sense, that early adopters don't like change.  If we don't like change, why are we early adopters?  Shouldn't we be late adopters?

    Thursday, December 01, 2011 5:37 PM
  • This indifference is not peculiar to Microsoft but is common to many companies.

    It is born of 'commercial confidentiality' and 'need to know'. Seemingly the staff of Microsoft are also under NDA's.

    Thursday, December 01, 2011 7:11 PM
  • @xpclient

    Have you tried the "Email Blog Author" link on the blog?

    Thursday, December 01, 2011 8:07 PM
  • @WindowsVista567 (because you ask twice, I reply, otherwise I didn't want to)

    Yes I have tried that I have got blocked/tuned out by Steven Sinofsky. When I sent some strongly worded and persistent (but polite, certainly not abusive) feedback about Explorer deficiencies and the GUI to the B8 blog email address and related UI experience ppl at Microsoft, Steven Sinofsky blocked me out completely saying "my passion was getting the best of me". I sent it persistently because there was no assurance that certain issues will be fixed, nor any acknowledgement that these issues exist with Explorer). They won't reply on whether any action will be taken on them and then blame me for repeatedly querying about my genuine concerns. I also sent emails to the team members directly associated with various components because everything was in the dark. Like some shell people for Explorer problems. And then one day I was blocked (some time in August) and directed me to "vent out my passion" in the forums.

    Sorry to say but I don't believe my passion was getting the best of me, Microsoft's Metro-Mania is getting the best of them. Way to go, blocking out your most passionate users who find the most glaring bugs in your software. Just because they found fundamental design flaws in your beloved OS and had the balls to speak out strongly against them. Microsoft misunderstand the needs of power users from Windows, they continue to remove features to simplify the OS and also misunderstand that our intention is to make it powerful/configurable - only to improve the product and serve all markets, not troll just for the sake.

    Either way, I used to get very rude and insulting replies from that blog email. If you don't want to get blocked, heap false praise on the product and don't criticize it sharply (although I was always polite).

    • Edited by xpclient Thursday, December 01, 2011 8:29 PM
    Thursday, December 01, 2011 8:15 PM
  • Probably not.  Someone please correct me if I'm wrong but Win8 is supposed to be feature complete by beta 1.  It's expected that Microsoft will announce Win8 beta 1 at CES 2012 and CES 2012 is only a month away. They're unlikely to make any significant changes this late in the game.


    Win8 beta 1 is now rumored for late Feb.  That's a little later than I expected.  I wonder if they're falling behind schedule.  My understanding is that they wanted this out by mid-to-late summer in time for the shopping for school season.

    http://thenextweb.com/microsoft/2011/12/01/the-public-windows-8-beta-will-be-released-in-late-february/

    Thursday, December 01, 2011 10:42 PM
  • I have a genuine question. Is the feedback in these forums actually going to affect the beta?

    It never has before, in any substantial way.  Many of Windows 7's problems, such as weirdities with Explorer, were found early in the public beta, yet they weren't addressed - hell, some of them still persist in Windows 8!  Surprisingly, alarmingly little changed based on public feedback!  Just small things.

    I think the mindset at Microsoft is that any one (or one hundred) users commenting here are but a mote of dust compared to the hundreds of millions of potential users, 97% of which have no idea what they're doing, and who will just use whatever Microsoft codes.  Short and blunt:  It's much harder to please geeks than the general public.

    Unfortunately I think Microsoft may be making one fundamental mistake, however, and that is that when Apple blazed the "make it simple" trail it was not only with out-of-the-box thinking but with products that actually work exceptionally well.  Just going through the same motions but without the "to work" options in place is no guarantee of success! 

    Make no mistake, just "tacking on" metro to the Start button without thinking the integration through and having an "apples vs. oranges" desktop vs. Metro presentation isn't "bold reimagination", no matter how many times it gets repeated.

    Much as we all hate to think it, the realization is slowly dawning that Microsoft doesn't seem to want to continue to make a serious OS for serious computer users - they seem to just want to move to making toys.  A whole bunch of Windows Experts might ought start to thinking about what OS they want to become expert in next...  Or just Metro app designers.  Angry Zombies anyone?  Plants vs. Aliens?

    -Noel

    Saturday, December 03, 2011 4:15 AM
  • Steven Sinofsky blocked me out completely saying "my passion was getting the best of me". I sent it persistently because there was no assurance that certain issues will be fixed, nor any acknowledgement that these issues exist with Explorer). They won't reply on whether any action will be taken on them and then blame me for repeatedly querying about my genuine concerns.

    that's the way Sinofsky always reacted to feedback.


    "A programmer is just a tool which converts caffeine into code"

    Sunday, December 04, 2011 5:11 PM