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What are we losing from expression (lee ssr) - 7/22/2005 12:00 PM PST RRS feed

  • Question

  • By: lee ssr

    I use Expression for my everyday work, it's something I couldn't do without.
    I tried using Acrylic alongside E3 but there was a problem with it, so now
    back to E3. I use the variable width facility and the ability to create my
    own strokes to give that hand drawn appearance. Will this be in the released
    version of acrylic? I.E are you adding rather than taking away from this
    fantastic piece of software?

    Lee

    Tuesday, February 19, 2008 5:57 PM
    Moderator

Answers

  • By: Annie


    The ability to create strokes and the variable width palette will remain.
    Mostly Acrylic adds to Expression. About the only thing missing in Acrylic
    is the Flash palette.

    --
    Annie
    Beta Coordinator
    a-annief(at)microsoft(dot)com
    This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no rights.


    "lee ssr" <leessr@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
    news:75B059C2-2554-4956-97C0-64557084A31A@microsoft.com...
    >I use Expression for my everyday work, it's something I couldn't do
    >without.
    > I tried using Acrylic alongside E3 but there was a problem with it, so now
    > back to E3. I use the variable width facility and the ability to create my
    > own strokes to give that hand drawn appearance. Will this be in the
    > released
    > version of acrylic? I.E are you adding rather than taking away from this
    > fantastic piece of software?
    >
    > Lee

    Tuesday, February 19, 2008 5:58 PM
    Moderator

All replies

  • By: Annie


    The ability to create strokes and the variable width palette will remain.
    Mostly Acrylic adds to Expression. About the only thing missing in Acrylic
    is the Flash palette.

    --
    Annie
    Beta Coordinator
    a-annief(at)microsoft(dot)com
    This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no rights.


    "lee ssr" <leessr@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
    news:75B059C2-2554-4956-97C0-64557084A31A@microsoft.com...
    >I use Expression for my everyday work, it's something I couldn't do
    >without.
    > I tried using Acrylic alongside E3 but there was a problem with it, so now
    > back to E3. I use the variable width facility and the ability to create my
    > own strokes to give that hand drawn appearance. Will this be in the
    > released
    > version of acrylic? I.E are you adding rather than taking away from this
    > fantastic piece of software?
    >
    > Lee

    Tuesday, February 19, 2008 5:58 PM
    Moderator
  • By: lee ssr


    Although the flash palette was kind of useless Creature House were planning
    an animation thing 'living cels' is this right? If so will you be developing
    it for future release. It would be really cool to have the ability to animate
    in the styles created in e3/Acrylic. Thanks for your response so far,


    "Annie" wrote:

    > The ability to create strokes and the variable width palette will remain.
    > Mostly Acrylic adds to Expression. About the only thing missing in Acrylic
    > is the Flash palette.
    >
    > --
    > Annie
    > Beta Coordinator
    > a-annief(at)microsoft(dot)com
    > This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no rights.
    >
    >
    > "lee ssr" <leessr@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
    > news:75B059C2-2554-4956-97C0-64557084A31A@microsoft.com...
    > >I use Expression for my everyday work, it's something I couldn't do
    > >without.
    > > I tried using Acrylic alongside E3 but there was a problem with it, so now
    > > back to E3. I use the variable width facility and the ability to create my
    > > own strokes to give that hand drawn appearance. Will this be in the
    > > released
    > > version of acrylic? I.E are you adding rather than taking away from this
    > > fantastic piece of software?
    > >
    > > Lee
    >
    >
    >

    Tuesday, February 19, 2008 5:58 PM
    Moderator
  • By: Henry Ståhle


    I am very interested in animation too! Next step: Living Acrylic?
    Tuesday, February 19, 2008 5:59 PM
    Moderator
  • By: Jarrad Hope


    LivingCels is/was a brilliant animation app, far supassing animation apps
    of today still.

    I have no idea why it was cancelled, seems pretty stupid to me.


    On Sat, 23 Jul 2005 03:44:02 +0800, lee ssr""
    <leessr@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote:

    > Although the flash palette was kind of useless Creature House were
    > planning
    > an animation thing 'living cels' is this right? If so will you be
    > developing
    > it for future release. It would be really cool to have the ability to
    > animate
    > in the styles created in e3/Acrylic. Thanks for your response so far,
    >
    > "Annie" wrote:
    >
    >> The ability to create strokes and the variable width palette will
    >> remain.
    >> Mostly Acrylic adds to Expression. About the only thing missing in
    >> Acrylic
    >> is the Flash palette.
    >>
    >> --
    >> Annie
    >> Beta Coordinator
    >> a-annief(at)microsoft(dot)com
    >> This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no
    >> rights.
    >>
    >>
    >> "lee ssr" <leessr@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
    >> news:75B059C2-2554-4956-97C0-64557084A31A@microsoft.com...
    >> >I use Expression for my everyday work, it's something I couldn't do
    >> >without.
    >> > I tried using Acrylic alongside E3 but there was a problem with it,
    >> so now
    >> > back to E3. I use the variable width facility and the ability to
    >> create my
    >> > own strokes to give that hand drawn appearance. Will this be in the
    >> > released
    >> > version of acrylic? I.E are you adding rather than taking away from
    >> this
    >> > fantastic piece of software?
    >> >
    >> > Lee
    >>
    >>
    >>



    --
    Jarrad Hope
    jhope[a.t] lungshrimp , com

    Tuesday, February 19, 2008 6:00 PM
    Moderator
  • By: lee ssr


    Hi Jarrad,

    You write as if you've tried 'living cels' was this a beta version? I've
    worked in animation for the past 10yrs and the only option we had to create
    purely from digital was Flash (really basic and restrictive)and a couple of
    other basic apps. Maybe we should lobby MS into developing this project
    further? I thought Living Cels was just a developed version of E3.


    "Jarrad Hope" wrote:

    > LivingCels is/was a brilliant animation app, far supassing animation apps
    > of today still.
    >
    > I have no idea why it was cancelled, seems pretty stupid to me.
    >
    >
    > On Sat, 23 Jul 2005 03:44:02 +0800, lee ssr""
    > <leessr@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote:
    >
    > > Although the flash palette was kind of useless Creature House were
    > > planning
    > > an animation thing 'living cels' is this right? If so will you be
    > > developing
    > > it for future release. It would be really cool to have the ability to
    > > animate
    > > in the styles created in e3/Acrylic. Thanks for your response so far,
    > >
    > > "Annie" wrote:
    > >
    > >> The ability to create strokes and the variable width palette will
    > >> remain.
    > >> Mostly Acrylic adds to Expression. About the only thing missing in
    > >> Acrylic
    > >> is the Flash palette.
    > >>
    > >> --
    > >> Annie
    > >> Beta Coordinator
    > >> a-annief(at)microsoft(dot)com
    > >> This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no
    > >> rights.
    > >>
    > >>
    > >> "lee ssr" <leessr@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
    > >> news:75B059C2-2554-4956-97C0-64557084A31A@microsoft.com...
    > >> >I use Expression for my everyday work, it's something I couldn't do
    > >> >without.
    > >> > I tried using Acrylic alongside E3 but there was a problem with it,
    > >> so now
    > >> > back to E3. I use the variable width facility and the ability to
    > >> create my
    > >> > own strokes to give that hand drawn appearance. Will this be in the
    > >> > released
    > >> > version of acrylic? I.E are you adding rather than taking away from
    > >> this
    > >> > fantastic piece of software?
    > >> >
    > >> > Lee
    > >>
    > >>
    > >>
    >
    >
    >
    > --
    > Jarrad Hope
    > jhope[a.t] lungshrimp , com
    >
    Tuesday, February 19, 2008 6:01 PM
    Moderator
  • By: Jarrad Hope


    Yes ive tried LivingCels, and you are right
    its basically expression with a timeline panel.
    Flash is good, if you can weild it(and get around some things).

    Animating with skeletal strokes is really amazing and easy.

    Your basically animating line of action and sliding multiview strokes.

    The only bad thing about livingcels was that you had to save individual
    xpr's for every
    "keyframe" so you end up with a sh!tload of xprs ... which isnt so bad as
    long as your good
    with managing files.

    To be honest I dont see why they dont add the feature in, the codes
    obviously been written
    and it works fine.(more flexible and artistically understanding than any
    other animation app out today)

    And why they took out flash export and the replay art feature...(i have NO
    idea!)
    all the features i liked!(unique, set it apart from other apps)

    I agree LivingCels functionality should definatly be included,
    or released publically.

    But it seems to me that acrylic is being geared towards profitability
    rather than a unique prodigy

    I think lobbying them is worth a shot. mind you it is microsoft and from
    experience, you more or less have to wait
    until they've finished butchering it and release it. lol I will be
    suprised if its anything different
    or surpassing expression in the end.

    Sorry im sounding abit negative, i just see no reason to delete the older
    versions :P

    my best wishes to annie tho whom is really doing a great job upfront.

    On Sat, 23 Jul 2005 16:04:02 +0800, lee ssr""
    <leessr@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote:

    >
    > Hi Jarrad,
    >
    > You write as if you've tried 'living cels' was this a beta version? I've
    > worked in animation for the past 10yrs and the only option we had to
    > create
    > purely from digital was Flash (really basic and restrictive)and a couple
    > of
    > other basic apps. Maybe we should lobby MS into developing this project
    > further? I thought Living Cels was just a developed version of E3.
    >
    >
    > "Jarrad Hope" wrote:
    >
    >> LivingCels is/was a brilliant animation app, far supassing animation
    >> apps
    >> of today still.
    >>
    >> I have no idea why it was cancelled, seems pretty stupid to me.
    Tuesday, February 19, 2008 6:02 PM
    Moderator
  • By: Henry Ståhle


    I have some experience from animating in Flash. It is OK but it is far from
    easy in animation like a walk cycle or making advanced animation.

    Recently I found Moho, and it looks very promising. Was LivingCels something
    like Moho? I have just seen some short anims and some theory about the
    skeletal strokes. I think Moho and LivingCels are about the same?

    And, yes, I agree, Microsoft must be pushed forward for releasing
    "LivingAcrylics" as soon as Acrylic is out in October.

    Henry

    Tuesday, February 19, 2008 6:03 PM
    Moderator
  • By: Jarrad Hope


    No livingcels is FAR better than moho, why?

    moho is very frigid in its design, renders poor, crappy drawing tools,
    and it can't import any vector files properly.

    its core use k-splines and thus all drawing tools use them...
    (i think thats what they are called) which are
    REALLY HARD TO DRAW AND ANIMATE WITH!!!!!

    Give it a try, i agree it is cool but when you try to do anything serious
    with it,
    you'll see what i mean.

    I have been working on a character animation system for flash because of
    this frustration
    of not having a decent way to animate. It will give flash the benefits of
    moho, i expect to
    release it within a month, email me jhope[a.t] lungshrimp , com if you
    want to be updated on
    its release(in about 2 weeks i'll release a demo video)

    LivingCels meshes traditional animation and cg animation almost too well...
    very unlike
    keyframing elements on a stage. Take my word for it, NOTHING beats it, ive
    tried alot
    of the products including toonbooms harmony.

    I even bought moho, its gathering dust on my hdd.

    Moho doesnt have skeletal strokes... it lets you put bitmaps on strokes
    which ehhhh...
    doesnt really do anything for me.


    On Sun, 24 Jul 2005 02:28:36 +0800, Henry Ståhle <henry@bildsajten.com>
    wrote:

    > I have some experience from animating in Flash. It is OK but it is far
    > from
    > easy in animation like a walk cycle or making advanced animation.
    >
    > Recently I found Moho, and it looks very promising. Was LivingCels
    > something
    > like Moho? I have just seen some short anims and some theory about the
    > skeletal strokes. I think Moho and LivingCels are about the same?
    >
    > And, yes, I agree, Microsoft must be pushed forward for releasing
    > "LivingAcrylics" as soon as Acrylic is out in October.
    >
    > Henry
    >

    Tuesday, February 19, 2008 6:04 PM
    Moderator
  • By: Estarriol


    Jarrad Hope said the following on 24.07.2005 5:00:

    > I have been working on a character animation system for flash because
    > of this frustration
    > of not having a decent way to animate. It will give flash the benefits
    > of moho, i expect to
    > release it within a month, email me jhope[a.t] lungshrimp , com if you
    > want to be updated on
    > its release(in about 2 weeks i'll release a demo video)

    Why dont you use 3DS MAX with some flash export plugin like Plasma or
    smth like that?

    Tuesday, February 19, 2008 6:07 PM
    Moderator
  • By: Jarrad Hope


    Been there done that im afraid.
    alot of problems occur.

    1. 3D vector renders are hard to get clean/perfect vectors
    2. Jittery animation, because each new frame is rendered seperatly from
    the last.
    3. Ridiculously huge(&ugly) swf files.
    4. translation from 2d to 3d...and you lose alot of cool 2d things.
    5. can easily cripple style.

    I know you can use optimaze but its still not good enough for deployment
    and its stil ugly.

    2d and 3d animation are very different games, alot of techniques have to
    change.

    So if your trying to train studio of 2d animators in 3d... its abit hard =/

    not to mention 3d takes a long while to setup, and the returns arent that
    great
    unless your highly-skilled in 3d animation

    have you seen that barbie tv show, or
    beast wars?? they are examples of animated shows done quickly. all the
    movements
    are very robotic... linear...which can work for beast wars.... but unless
    barbie is
    a poorly programmed android.

    Im sure the animators there are great , but to knock out a half hour show
    every week
    they have to cut corners and it shows alot.

    Flash is a familiar enivonment and it handles vectors well, there really
    is no need
    to deviate from it ... (with the exception of livingcels :D)

    On Tue, 26 Jul 2005 02:12:56 +0800, Estarriol
    <eNsOtSaPrArMiPoLlZ@comtv.ru> wrote:

    > Jarrad Hope said the following on 24.07.2005 5:00:
    >
    >> I have been working on a character animation system for flash because
    >> of this frustration
    >> of not having a decent way to animate. It will give flash the benefits
    >> of moho, i expect to
    >> release it within a month, email me jhope[a.t] lungshrimp , com if you
    >> want to be updated on
    >> its release(in about 2 weeks i'll release a demo video)
    >
    > Why dont you use 3DS MAX with some flash export plugin like Plasma or
    > smth like that?
    Tuesday, February 19, 2008 6:09 PM
    Moderator
  • By: Annie


    Sorry but I don't know about LivingCels. I'm not in that department. :-)

    --
    Annie
    Beta Coordinator
    a-annief(at)microsoft(dot)com
    This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no rights.


    "Annie" <someone@somewhere.com> wrote in message
    news:%23S$ecQvjFHA.3148@TK2MSFTNGP09.phx.gbl...
    > The ability to create strokes and the variable width palette will remain.
    > Mostly Acrylic adds to Expression. About the only thing missing in Acrylic
    > is the Flash palette.
    >
    > --
    > Annie
    > Beta Coordinator
    > a-annief(at)microsoft(dot)com
    > This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no
    > rights.
    >
    >
    > "lee ssr" <leessr@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
    > news:75B059C2-2554-4956-97C0-64557084A31A@microsoft.com...
    >>I use Expression for my everyday work, it's something I couldn't do
    >>without.
    >> I tried using Acrylic alongside E3 but there was a problem with it, so
    >> now
    >> back to E3. I use the variable width facility and the ability to create
    >> my
    >> own strokes to give that hand drawn appearance. Will this be in the
    >> released
    >> version of acrylic? I.E are you adding rather than taking away from this
    >> fantastic piece of software?
    >>
    >> Lee
    >
    >
    Tuesday, February 19, 2008 6:10 PM
    Moderator