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Unstable tag recognition Surface 2 RRS feed

  • Question

  • I'm curious whether or not others are having similar problems with the Surface 2 recognizing byte tags. We're using the official tags that were supplied with the Surface 1, but when we place a tag on the Surface, the Input Visualizer has trouble identifying it. It doesn't get a clear 'lock' all the time and keeps scanning the tag.

    This is concerning because the object recognization is an essential feature that must work robust!

    Friday, January 6, 2012 10:05 AM

Answers

  • Hi Serge, 

    We have a final product. But it seems our problems are over. We've run the calibration tool, and it responds normally now. The tags are also better recognized!

    Check out my blog post for more information. :)

    • Proposed as answer by Dennis VroegopMVP Thursday, January 12, 2012 6:14 PM
    • Marked as answer by Jowen Mei Friday, January 13, 2012 8:33 AM
    Thursday, January 12, 2012 5:03 PM

All replies

  • Can you please run the Environment Lighting Optimizer and check that your lighting is not interfering with the device?  There should be an icon for this tool on the desktop.

    There are instructions for the tool and more details about lighting considerations in the Admin Guide.  See "Environmental Lighting Optimizer" under "Tools and Resources".


    This post is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no rights.
    Friday, January 6, 2012 6:37 PM
  • Hm, I should have mentioned that in my first post. 

    We have the environment lighting optimized (everything is green), but that doesn't make any difference.

    Monday, January 9, 2012 8:30 AM
  • What I have notice sometimes which tags is that if you stick it under an object which is not perfectly clean and plane it can cause latency on reading the tag as well as if you place the tag under an object which is too light. have you try to place you tag on an heavier object for instance to be sure contact is made perfectly ?
    Your knowledge is enhanced by that of others.
    Monday, January 9, 2012 12:59 PM
  • I am struggling with the same problem as JowenMei.
    The Environment Lighting Optimizer shows everything green (we had to turn off all direct light sources).
    The Tags get recognized and once you drag them on the surface, they get lost almost immediately.
    To make sure the contact is made perfectly we placed the tags under a really heavy object and also used hand pressure.

    who can help?

    what else can be done to have a stable tag recognition?

    this is really an important feature we need for our client.

     

     

    Tuesday, January 10, 2012 5:18 PM
  • We also used a heavier object and used hand pressure. With the same circumstances, it did work on the first Surface...
    Tuesday, January 10, 2012 5:36 PM
  • By the way, is there somebody who received a calibration board with his/her sur40 unit?

    They told us that Samsung has mentioned that calibration shouldn't be necessary the first 100 hours of usage. This raises the questions: which variables are changing over time so that calibration is required? And to fix what kind of issue(s)?

    Tuesday, January 10, 2012 5:56 PM
  • Some more questions/suggestions for you:

    1. It sounds like the tag is attached to an object.  Is the section of the object where the tag is attached flat?  Does the whole tag touch the screen when the object is placed on it?  Please ensure that the tag is flat and fully touching the screen.
    2. What color is the material to which the tag is attached?  Some tags are partially IR transparent, and the underlying material can cause recognition issues.  You may want to try a different object/material.
    3. What does the area of the object around the outside of the tag look like?  Is there a picture there?  That can cause recognition issues.
    4. Can you check to see if the tag circles are still well defined/crisp, and the background is still solid black.  If the tag is worn, that may cause recognition issues.
    5. What color(s) are you using for your application's background/visuals?  If it's very bright (ex. white), that may be causing problems.  Try a darker color.
    6. Do you have the same problem in a dark room (no light, no sunlight)?  You should be OK when ELO is green, but if you still have problems in the dark that would be a good clue for isolating what's causing the problem.

    This post is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no rights.
    Tuesday, January 10, 2012 6:17 PM
  • 1. We've tried it with a separate tag, as well as a tag covered by an flat object (to ensure enough pressure and that the whole tag touches the screen)

    2. We've tried it with different materials, including our own hands.

    3. The area around the object is clear.

    4. We used officially supplied tags (with Surface 1). They've have never been used before.

    5. We've tried the Compare Item which is a sample from the SDK, and we've tested it with the Input Visualizer, which has a darker background.

    6. We still have the problem in a dark room.

    We've tested all these things trying to isolate the problem. Obviously, dealing with these limitations is hardly acceptable for a customer, but at the moment we can't get it working at all :s

     

    • Proposed as answer by tasovi Wednesday, January 11, 2012 2:10 PM
    Tuesday, January 10, 2012 6:31 PM
  • Ok, can you place a stationary tag on DataVisualizer (not InputVisualizer) and describe in detail what you're seeing?  Is the contact id changing?  Is the tag value changing?  I want to make sure I understand what you mean by "doesn't get a clear 'lock' all the time and keeps scanning the tag".


    This post is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no rights.
    Tuesday, January 10, 2012 8:42 PM
  • Jeroen, you should contact Samsung support with your calibration questions.
    This post is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no rights.
    Tuesday, January 10, 2012 8:43 PM
  • First of all, thanks for your helpfulness Erik. 

    The contact id changes all the time, whereas the tag value does not. 

    Wednesday, January 11, 2012 12:39 PM
  • Hi Erik,

    same over here. The Contact ID changes permanently.

    I recordet a small video, where you can see what is happening.
    http://dl.dropbox.com/u/56748944/IMG_0050.MOV

    As you can see, ELO is all Green, Tag is covering the whole surface of the object where it is placed under.

    What can we do here?

    Wednesday, January 11, 2012 2:09 PM
  • Tnx tasovi for recording a video. 

    Note: we still keep getting new id's, even when we don't move the tag (as opposed to what is shown in the video)

    Either way, it's unstable!

    Wednesday, January 11, 2012 2:18 PM
  • We have the same behavior, where even the id keeps changing when we don't move the tag (as opposed to what is shown in the video)
    Wednesday, January 11, 2012 3:28 PM
  • tasovi, thank you very much for posting the video. This helps us to better understand the issue. From what I can tell in your case the tag ID is not "locked" when you move the x/y position of the tag on the screen. Because we optimized the device for finger tracking, we do anticipate that tag tracking, sliding the tag from one point on the screen to another, may be impacted. Tag rotation, moving the tag in a clockwise or counter-clockwise fashion at a fixed location, should not be afffected.

    JowenMei the situation you describe, where the tag is in a fixed location but is still not locked, or is cycling through IDs, is not expected. Please also describe what kind of tags you're using. If you purchased them, or prehaps printed them yourself.

    tasovi & JowenMei it would be very helpful if both of you can check, and report back on the Version information currently installed on your device. This is achieved by tapping the Power Button on the side of the unit while the unit is on and running -- which should bring up the On Screen Display (OSD). At the bottom of the OSD you should see something like:

    Version:  MCU: M-SU40MWWAC-0900.0  FPGA:  2.0.21104.00  USB: 2.0.20017.06

    The results should not look exactly like the sample above, but if you can provide us with what you're seeing on your units, it may provide us with information to help us assist you further. I'm sorry that you are having difficulties you're experiencing, and with your help I hope that we can quickly address your needs.

    Many thanks,

    James

    Thursday, January 12, 2012 1:11 AM
  • Hi James,

    our Version Information is:

     

    Version: MCU: M-SU40MWWAC-01001.0 FPGA: 2.0.2.1213.01 USB: 2.0.21209.01

     

    When spinning the tag cloclwise perfectly around it's center, you are right, the tag ID is "locked".
    But this is almost never the case, because the tag will move always a little bit while rotating it and the tag ID is lost again.

    If you like I can recorde another video showing that scenario.

     

    so does this mean, that tags can not be moved at all on the surface 2?

    thanks for your help

    Thursday, January 12, 2012 9:59 AM
  • Hi James

    We've tried to use tags that we printed ourselves (using different printers), as well as official supplied tags for Surface 1. 

    Version: MCU: M-SU40MWWAC-01001.0 FPGA: 2.0.21213.01 USB: 2.0.21209.01

     

    I can't record a video at the moment, because we can't operate the Surface at all; after running the calibration tool, the cursor jumps around everywhere :s

    Thursday, January 12, 2012 1:47 PM
  • about the calibration tool: did you receive a calibration board with the surface?
    samsung told us, there is no calibration board, but the tool asks for one.
    I don't get it.

    Thursday, January 12, 2012 1:54 PM
  • we did not receive a calibration board. We've been told that Samsung will ship them in 2 or 3 weeks...

    Samsung also stated that calibration is not required in the first 100 hours. That may be, although we already heard of someone having real calibration problems.

    We didn't have calibration issues ourselves, but we tried to run the calibration tool to solve our tag recognition problems. Apparently, the tool can not cope with the situation that you don't own a board... 

    Thursday, January 12, 2012 2:01 PM
  • today we tried or 2nd sur40.

    here even rotating the tag slowly causes the problem (loosing the tag id).

     

    Thursday, January 12, 2012 2:17 PM
  • Hello, does all of you have in hand a Pre prod SUrface unit or is it the final product ?
    Your knowledge is enhanced by that of others.
    Thursday, January 12, 2012 4:47 PM
  • They are not pre prod.
    • Edited by tasovi Thursday, January 12, 2012 5:00 PM
    Thursday, January 12, 2012 5:00 PM
  • Hi Serge, 

    We have a final product. But it seems our problems are over. We've run the calibration tool, and it responds normally now. The tags are also better recognized!

    Check out my blog post for more information. :)

    • Proposed as answer by Dennis VroegopMVP Thursday, January 12, 2012 6:14 PM
    • Marked as answer by Jowen Mei Friday, January 13, 2012 8:33 AM
    Thursday, January 12, 2012 5:03 PM
  • Great news JowenMei.

    but how did you run it without the calibration board?

    Thursday, January 12, 2012 5:07 PM
  • Check out my blogpost, as linked in my previous answer. Good luck with that!
    Thursday, January 12, 2012 5:10 PM
  • Good news then. I will receive my unit end of this month only :-), I will seee if I guess same trouble.

    @JowenMei, do you mind if I translate your post in french on my blog as well ?

    In france we are alwys let in deliveries ...

     


    Your knowledge is enhanced by that of others.
    Thursday, January 12, 2012 5:21 PM
  • JowenMei,

    we tried the same aproach, but we get the error message "Error 2 -- Contact Samsung "

    did you first put on the black doormat or first the white papers?

    thx for the help

    Thursday, January 12, 2012 5:29 PM
  • @Serge: of course you can translate my post. I would appreciate it if you would include a link to it though :) 

    @tasovi: we first put on the white paper. But if should ask you for it when you follow the steps?

    Thursday, January 12, 2012 5:44 PM
  • Thx Jowen.

    Since you mentioned the doormatt as your first step in your blog, I was wondering if they made a translation Error (we have the german version), because the tool asked for white first.

    Anyway, we still get the "Error 2" message.

    We tried several big white elements and non worked. the calibration keeps failing.

    Thursday, January 12, 2012 5:47 PM
  • Hm sorry about that. I wrote it incorrect in my blog (corrected already). But the white must go first, as asked for in the tool.

    Did you make sure the entire surface was covered? That's the most important thing. You can't use a normal piece of paper obviously...

    Thursday, January 12, 2012 5:52 PM
  • yes we covered everything up perfectly. we used  lots of paper (double the sice of regular printing paper) in severeal layers(so nothing can shine through) and covered everything up.

     


    • Edited by tasovi Thursday, January 12, 2012 5:55 PM
    Thursday, January 12, 2012 5:55 PM
  • Hmm. Then I really have no idea. It seems that we had a lucky shot.

    I have no other tips... I just hope that I've inspired you to try it without the board. And I truly wish that you'll succeed!

    Thursday, January 12, 2012 5:59 PM
  • I have the same experience. The unit got delivered and we had the same problems. Then someone (not me!) decided to run the calibration tool without have a calibration board. So they stopped the calibration too soon. That resulted in a un usuable machine with virtual touches all over the place.

    I then did the calibration in a similar manner (black board and white board on the machine, making sure it was fully covered) and that did the trick.

    Jowen / Jeroen, you know you should have called me :-)


    Dennis Vroegop Destrato Microsoft MVP Surface Please mark an answer as "answered" if it does help you!
    Thursday, January 12, 2012 6:05 PM
  • Using a doormat to calibrate the unit make me laught a lot!

    Well done  :)


    GP
    Thursday, January 12, 2012 7:32 PM
  • Thx Jowen for your help so far.

    Unfortunately our office, does not have such a doormat. we user several blackboards and several layers of white printing paper, unfortunately that doesn't work and the calibration gets canceled.

    hopefully the samsung will provide the calibrationunits soon.

    Jowen, the tags now work fine? Can you drag them over the table and they don't loose the ID?

     

     

    Thursday, January 12, 2012 8:18 PM
  • I can confirm that if calibrated the tag ID's won't get lost. At least, they didn't when I tested earlier today.
    Dennis Vroegop Destrato Microsoft MVP Surface Please mark an answer as "answered" if it does help you!
    Thursday, January 12, 2012 8:54 PM
  • did you cover only the touchable screen, or the whole machine including the metal frame?
    Friday, January 13, 2012 8:02 AM
  • @tasovi: the tags work a lot better now. It doesn't work everytime, but it's acceptable now. 

    And we did cover the entire surface, including the frame, but I don't think that's necessary. Of course, you should try it just to be sure!

     

    Friday, January 13, 2012 8:33 AM
  • ok now it is really strange.

    we tried again to calibrate and today somehow the calibration process succeded. but now we don't get any touches at all.
    SUR40 won't react on any input anymore. the Lighning optimizer shows all green, even when we turn on the lights.before calibrating, it turned from green to red when the lights were on.

     

    HEEEELPPPP!!!!!!

    Friday, January 13, 2012 11:16 AM
  • tasovi, can you start a new thread on this issue?
    This post is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no rights.
    Friday, January 13, 2012 6:19 PM
  • tasovi, can you start a new thread on this issue?
    This post is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no rights.
     Hi Erik, I just did. --> http://social.msdn.microsoft.com/Forums/en-US/surfaceappdevelopment/thread/9301f173-75b2-450c-bb63-70b0c0c01a56
    Saturday, January 14, 2012 3:06 PM
  • We had a similar issue. Even if we did not move tags manually they got lost and recognized periodically. Some research in the internet and looking up resources within MSDN let us find the following:

    http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/microsoft.surface.presentation.controls.touchvisualizations.touchvisualizer.setshowsvisualizations.aspx

       s:TouchVisualizer.ShowsVisualizations="False"
    

    Adding this line to the MainWindow resolved at least the flickering since the touch visualizations were disturbing the tag recognition.

    Thanks to the Surface team. Keep up good work!!!

    Cheers,

      -- Roman

    Monday, February 27, 2012 5:46 PM
  • I set
     s:TouchVisualizer.ShowsVisualizations="False"
    but I didn't really see any difference in the tag recognition behaviour
    Tuesday, February 28, 2012 1:12 PM
  • I confirm also the behavior on 4 units we have. And I am using Tag sticker provided with Surface 1

    I do not understand why we do net get this Calibration board at same time as the unit. SO far it prevents us using Tags in real project

    regards

    serge


    Your knowledge is enhanced by that of others.

    Tuesday, February 28, 2012 6:40 PM
  • The simple reason why Samsung haven't shipped the calibration board immediately, is because they thought we didn't need it.

    They thought the Surface wouldn't require any calibration for the first 500 hours at least. Unfortunately, the units we're not calibrated correctly coming out of the factory. (btw, here in the Netherlands, some dealers already received their board)

    ... I must admit though, that after using our own calibration method, the tag recognition works fine now.

    Wednesday, February 29, 2012 8:35 AM
  • I have made a request to get that calibration board and we ill receive it next week

    Serge


    Your knowledge is enhanced by that of others.

    Wednesday, February 29, 2012 9:33 AM
  • I must admit though, that after using our own calibration method, the tag recognition works fine now.

    @ Jowen,

    can you specify that please? Will the tag be lost when dragging the tag around on the sur40?or are they stable, even when drgging, as it was on the surface 1?

    Wednesday, February 29, 2012 9:37 AM
  • The tag recognition is at an acceptable level now. Occasionally though, the tag is lost while dragging. 

    We covered this up in the software. Now, when a tag is recognized, the tagvisualizer remains visible for several seconds. This gives a more solid impression, because it removes the flickering. 

    Of course, this may not always be a viable solution.

    Wednesday, February 29, 2012 9:48 AM
  • thanks jowen, thats good news.

    could you please share some more details, on how you covered it in your software?

    what did you change? did you adjust the LostTagTimeout, or did you do more?

    thanks for sharing.

    Wednesday, February 29, 2012 11:10 AM
  • We set the TagRemovedBehaviour property to Persist. This means that the visualizer will stay visible, even after removing the tag. Setting the LostTagTimeout has no effect in this mode. 


    Thursday, March 1, 2012 9:52 AM
  • Thanks for the info.

    And when did you fade out /remove the visualisation?
    when the taglost event gets fired?

    Thursday, March 1, 2012 10:09 AM
  • No, we let the user close it. This method makes it much less error-prone. It's not our main reason to choose it, but it's a nice side effect!

    When you remove it on the taglost event, you get more "flickering"

    • Edited by Jowen Mei Thursday, March 1, 2012 10:26 AM
    Thursday, March 1, 2012 10:26 AM
  • Hello,

    I just try the calibration on the unit as I receive the calibration paper.

    Even after a succesfull calibraation process, tag regognistion behaves as before. as soos as you move the tag it changed ist ID.

    Even flickering quite a lot I would say.

    Do you have the same still or totaly lock ID ?

    regards

    serge


    Your knowledge is enhanced by that of others.

    Thursday, March 8, 2012 9:09 PM
  • Hi serge,

    Thats unfortunate to hear that the recognition still doesn't work correct.

    I'm curious how you have tested it though... when I use the Data Visualizer, the tag is not totally locked. And to be honest, I don't think this will ever be the case. However, you can cover up most of this problem in the software. For instance, by setting a small delay when the Tag has been lost. This will greatly reduce the flickering...


    Friday, March 9, 2012 9:49 AM
  • Hi everybody !

    We have been having the same problem and we have also done most of the stuff described here to fix it. I just was wondering ...  I have been reading for a while and I haven't found anything related with the physical size of the tags. I mean, Is enough to just print with a good quality the tags provided at http://www.microsoft.com/download/en/details.aspx?amp;displaylang=en&id=11029 ?


    Should these tags be printed the bigger the better?

    Will it help to print a bigger tag (in terms of tag recognition and tag tracking while moving the tag on the Samsung device surface)?

    I was wondering if the size does matter.

    As I can see in the following video that tasovi uploaded: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/56748944/IMG_0050.MOV :

    1./ These guys are using bigger size tags

    2./ They extend the dark area of the tag to the whole contact surface of the object placed on.

    Thanks in advance for your help.

    Cheers,

    Felix

    Monday, March 12, 2012 10:48 AM
  • I don't have any experience with using different sizes. I only know that the quality of printing is very important.

    There's an interesting item in this page

    "Do not use this document for printing tags because there is no way to ensure that your Internet browser is printing them at the proper size"

    This kind of implies that size does matter?!

    Monday, March 12, 2012 10:54 AM
  • we are using the original surface 1 tags. we just added more black area around it.
    the thing is, surface 2 will loose het tag when dragging around.

    you should not listen to the taglost event.
    set the TagremovedBehaviour to Wait and your result is much better.

    but never the less, don't calibrate the sur40 mcgyver style, then you can loose all touches and you can not reset it

    Monday, March 12, 2012 10:56 AM
  • [offtopic]
    @tasovi: sorry for you that the calibration didn't work. I believe here's someone who managed to reset their unit.
    [/offtopic]
    Monday, March 12, 2012 11:38 AM
  • Cool! Thank you guys for your quick answers!
    Monday, March 12, 2012 11:40 AM
  • @Jowen, we have also using the Persist option on tag visulaization but the behaviour is not acceptable anyway in the current scenario because Persist option is just here to tell that in case tag is removed keep the visualisation visible.

    What is happening in our case now is that :

    - We simple drop a taged card on without touching it.

    - The tag visulaization appear

    - Then after few seconds the tag gets lost but as perssist mode is set, the visualizer remains

    -While the card has not been removed, tten the tag is detected again and then display a second tagvisualizer.

    I do not know how to overcome this, but this is not for sure a reliable solution if the scenario request card to be always place on the table.

    Any trick in mind?

    regards

    serge 


    Your knowledge is enhanced by that of others.

    Sunday, March 18, 2012 8:02 PM
  • @Serge you should set the TagVisualizationDefinition.MaxCount property to 1. Then, you would only have a single visualizer. As I said earlier, there's a lot you can resolve in code! :)
    Wednesday, March 21, 2012 10:21 AM
  • Sure, this is what I ma done earllier but this is not what my customer request.

    he want to be able to get this single cards to be passed to users and allows more than a single tag visualizer


    Your knowledge is enhanced by that of others.

    Wednesday, March 21, 2012 1:58 PM
  • I think you should set the LostTagTimeOut property... this works together with the Persist property setting.
    Wednesday, March 21, 2012 2:49 PM