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Expression Web 4 too slow RRS feed

  • Question

  • I have the trial version of the EW4. Whatever the reason is, it is running very slow. I waste a lot of time for the program to respond even when I am moving from one line to another(15 sec). Saving files, opening and closing files takes even longer(30-45sec). I am running MS Vista (64 bit) with plenty of memory. I did not had this problem with MW3.
    Sunday, July 25, 2010 11:00 PM

All replies

  • What processor and what AV program?
    Expression Web MVP
    Monday, July 26, 2010 12:33 AM
  • Pentium-Dual-core T4200 @ 2.00 GHz  AV?
    Monday, July 26, 2010 2:58 AM
  • AV - Antivirus

    --
    _____________________________________________
    SBR @ ENJOY (-: [ Microsoft MVP - FrontPage ]
    "Warning - Using the F1 Key will not break anything!" (-;
    _____________________________________________

    SBR @ ENJOY (-: [ Microsoft MVP - FrontPage ]
    Monday, July 26, 2010 8:22 AM
  • Norton Internet Security.
    Monday, July 26, 2010 12:46 PM
  • Expression web 4, upgraded from Expression Web 3. EW4 running too slow for me also.

    Windows Vista Home Premium SP2; 64bit
    Intel Core Duo T8100 @ 2.10GHz
    4GB RAM
    AV=AT&T Internet Security Suite powered by McAfee [Sec Center=9.15; VirusScan=13.15; PersonalFirewall=10.15 (version#)]

    Took 2.5 minutes to create a new page from a fairly simple .dwt.
    Moving from line to line in code very slow (sometimes). You have to wait for screen to catch up, like in olden times with a 300 baud modem.
    Editing CSS was the worst, slow enough to make me go back to Expression Web 3, which was only slow at startup. (compared to original Expression Web, patched current)

    yeah, yeah. more features, more bloat, but usability still has to count for something.

    Saturday, July 31, 2010 1:45 AM
  • EW4 runs fine for me.  Takes some time to load the program on my oldest machine, but that's all.  It runs plenty fast on both machines: Windows XP Home on one, Vista Ultimate 64bit on the other.
    Saturday, July 31, 2010 1:58 AM
  • Maybe you can try disabling (temporarily) those utilities to see if response improves;I've heard a lot of criticism of Norton products (and McAfee also); they are heavy on system resource usage and hinder performance.

    One suggestion is to look for an alternative AV like Microsoft Security Essentials which is much lighter on the system resources, and it still does its job quite effectively.


    Andrew M


    http://www.murraywebs.com

    "Nothing spoils numbers faster than a lot of arithmetic"
    -- Peppermint Patty (Peanuts, Charles M. Schulz)
    Saturday, July 31, 2010 9:32 AM
  • Your problem is exactly what I am having to contend with. Sometimes you have to wait a long time before the screen catches up.

    Is there someone from Microsoft that can help us. I am not going to purchase the product if I do not get a resolution to the problem or support.  I am planning to go back to 3 also.

    Sunday, August 1, 2010 1:58 AM
  • Thank you for your response.

    I have turned off the AV and it did not had any effect on EW4 running slower or any faster. There got to be someone in Microsoft that we should be able to call that might have a fix. SO far I have not been able to get in touch with anyone since I am on the trial version. I am not going to purchase the product if it runs this slow.

    Thanks again !! 

    Sunday, August 1, 2010 2:03 AM
  • The don't purchase it. It isn't slow on my computer and this is a user to user forum. If you want to get your bug to the product team go to http://connect.microsoft.com and file a bug under the Expression Studio feedback group.

    I'd check video card drivers and make sure that WPF is working correctly  as well as dotnet 4 since those are the things that impact performance.


    MS MVP Expression Tutorials & Help http://by-expression.com
    Sunday, August 1, 2010 3:04 AM
  • ozflorida: Keep in mind that EW isn't, in all likelihood, the problem here. It's the victim of a flaw in your system, and there is nothing MS can do about it because EW is acting properly. Logic says that if EW runs on a bajillion other computers just fine (as it indeed does), then the flaw is in your computer--bad/old video drivers, mouse drivers, etc.

    A perfect example of this is the problem with Kaspersky Internet Security causing EW4 to crash. EW4 was performing exactly to spec, doing nothing wrong, but Kaspersky's code misinterpreted what EW was doing and crashed it. It was all Kaspersky's fault, and they have acknowledged it and released an update to their program. Even though EW crashed, it was the victim of a system flaw, not the bad actor. There was nothing MS could do or should do.

    It's going to take some poking around, but your problem could be many places, even a bad .NET installation.


    So a skeleton walks into a bar and orders a beer. And a mop.
    Sunday, August 1, 2010 3:38 AM
  • Bill Pearson: When did Kaspersky release the update so Kaspersky and EW4 can work together? I installed Kaspersky 2010 two days ago and EW4 can’t load. I see that this forum proposes removing two elements from EW4 to solve this issue.

    Sunday, August 1, 2010 5:16 AM
  • "When did Kaspersky release the update so Kaspersky and EW4 can work together?"

    See the "Before Posting post".

    Sunday, August 1, 2010 5:44 AM
  • I do not understand your post KathyW2.

    Bill Pearson in his post, just above mine stated:

    A perfect example of this is the problem with Kaspersky Internet Security causing EW4 to crash. EW4 was performing exactly to spec, doing nothing wrong, but Kaspersky's code misinterpreted what EW was doing and crashed it. It was all Kaspersky's fault, and they have acknowledged it and released an update to their program.”

    When I installed Kaspersky 2010 three days ago it did self-update upon installation and I believe I have the most recent version.

    Since I am in the situation Bill Pearson was describing, I thought it was a legitimate question to ask him when the upgrade was released.  

    This is the second time you rewarded me with the strange no-answer post KathyW2.

    Sunday, August 1, 2010 10:16 PM
  • When I installed Kaspersky 2010 three days ago it did self-update upon installation and I believe I have the most recent version.

    Please note that Kaspersky 2011 was released more than a month ago.

    Regarding to update for the bug,  was made available since Wednesday, July 21, 2010 in  the Kaspersky Global web site.

    In order to install Critical Fix 1, perform the following actions:

    Download Kaspersky Internet Security 2011 version 11.0.1.400 from the Kaspersky Lab official site: http://www.kaspersky.com/kis_latest_versions

    Run the downloaded file

    Install the latest product version over the current version

    Restart your computer

    Sunday, August 1, 2010 10:52 PM
  • How much clearer can I be?  See the "Before Posting" post. It has your answer in it. (You should read it before any posting.)

     

    As to my first answer, it was, as several other's were, to point out that it's not EW4 that is inately slow.  In other words, we can't tell you why it's slow on your machine.

    Sunday, August 1, 2010 11:23 PM
  • There's a link right in the BEFORE POSTING thread directly to the Kaspersky critical update. That's why kathy pointed you to it.

    The name is in bold. Can't miss it.


    So a skeleton walks into a bar and orders a beer. And a mop.
    Monday, August 2, 2010 1:12 AM
  • Bill, I still say that thread should be renamed. Something along the lines of "POSTING GUIDELINES. READ **BEFORE** YOU POST! YES, THIS DOES MEAN YOU"

    Sorry, but it just gets so bloody bedamned tiresome having to refer again and again to that thread. I honestly feel that something more imperative than "BEFORE POSTING" is needed. Just MHO...  ;-)

    cheers,
    scott


    C'mon, folks. This isn't rocket science, nor neurosurgery. It's "Expression" (singular) "Web" (singular), in that order, followed by a version numeral if you wish to be specific. It is often abbreviated "EW." It is not "Web Expression," "Expressions Web," "Web Expressions," or plain "Expression" or "Expressions." Not using the correct name indicates either ignorance or laziness. Most folks would rather avoid the appearance of either.
    Monday, August 2, 2010 2:49 AM
  • At the top of the first page of this forum there is a sticky thread titled "Before Posting" and there is another with Installation issues/fixes. The sticky threads are the FAQs for Expression Web. Read through them and see if the solutions and advice in those posts solve your problem. If not, post back and include what you tried as a fix for your problem.
    MS MVP Expression Tutorials & Help http://by-expression.com
    Monday, August 2, 2010 3:07 AM
  • Scott: Yeah, I know, but this forum is littered with hundreds and hundreds of references to that name and if I change the name, the references no longer mean anything to people who come along later. I did change the last part of the name a few months ago, as you suggested, but I thought I'd be shooting us all in our feet if I changed the whole name.

    Let me cogitate on it a bit.


    So a skeleton walks into a bar and orders a beer. And a mop.
    Monday, August 2, 2010 3:25 AM
  • I do understand that, Bill, and I have thought about it too. But the problem, as it appears to me, at least, is that no one is bothering to follow those hundreds of references anyway, especially those that are buried shoulder-deep in the old posts. At least with a more imperative subject title we might get the newbies on their first venture into the forum to at least scan it enough to read the User FAQs.

    The thing is, the current title doesn't indicate what it actually is. No mention is made of posting guidelines. Even those with experience in other forums might not realize that that is where the posting guidelines and forum FAQs are located. If we can indicate in the subject that here are the posting guidelines, and the forum community expects you to read and heed them, we might have more folks who actually take the time to at least open the thread.

    Or, maybe not. Hel, I don't know. But it might be worth a try, and in any event I'd feel less awkward saying, "You need to read the Posting Guidelines," instead of, "You need to check the BEFORE POSTING post at the top of the thread list."  ;-)

    cheers,
    scott


    C'mon, folks. This isn't rocket science, nor neurosurgery. It's "Expression" (singular) "Web" (singular), in that order, followed by a version numeral if you wish to be specific. It is often abbreviated "EW." It is not "Web Expression," "Expressions Web," "Web Expressions," or plain "Expression" or "Expressions." Not using the correct name indicates either ignorance or laziness. Most folks would rather avoid the appearance of either.
    Monday, August 2, 2010 4:26 AM
  • Okey Dokey. Made some changes to the Title and edited the contents this evening to make them a little easier to read.

    We'll see if that helps.


    Some see the glass as half full. Others see the glass as half empty. I see a glass that's clearly twice as large as it needs to be.
    Tuesday, August 3, 2010 3:58 AM
  • I have been having this same problem for months, yet EW3 is just fine.  I Read the Before Posting, cleared cache, downloaded EW Cleaner, turned off Anti-Virus, damn...I tried everything.  Nothing helped.

    Then I re-read the Before Posting section.  I then noticed an insignificant note, at least I assumed it was insignificant.  THE SOLUTION: To open a site, use the Site menu, not the File menu as in previous versions.

    Its amazing how a complexing and frustrating problem can have such a simple solution.  Works beautifully!

    Friday, August 6, 2010 2:37 PM
  • IndyDog,

    Your post made me laugh. Thanks for the last two sentences.


    MS MVP Expression Tutorials & Help http://by-expression.com
    Friday, August 6, 2010 3:25 PM
  • Sorry, but it just gets so bloody bedamned tiresome having to refer again and again to that thread.
    Looks like you feel obligated to do that.
    Friday, August 6, 2010 11:41 PM
  • Cliff:

    The smart-___ comment you reference was that poster's way of saying that this is a user-to-user forum. We don't care whether somebody buys any MS product or not or threatens to use a competitor's product (many of us also use Dreamweaver). As users, the hollow threats are just chaff to be winnowed through, sails to have the wind taken out of, etc. On top of that, anybody who has a retail version of EW3 (as the OP did) gets to upgrade to EW4 for free, so it really was even more pointless for him to threaten an economic boycott.

    WPF? Windows Presentation Foundation--Google it for more details.

    Video card drivers? Yup, Mouse too. EW makes new demands on the graphic subsystem. Not like playing Duke Nuke 'em or WoW, but it hooks into specific display methods that need to be accommodated. On my last computer I could play Asheron's Call (an MMORPG) with no problem at all, but Hasbro's Scrabble brought it to its knees. Scrabble! Unplayable, and only because of the way it interfaced with my video card.

    So, yeah, EW runs fine on the huge, huge majority of systems; a few it balks on. The problem is not EW (or everyone would have the same problem, logically), it's something in your system that's not playing well with EW. Think of it as a system problem, not a program problem. When Kaspersky AV cause EW4 to crash, there was no problem with EW4; it was doing everything as it should have. The problem was Kaspersky's, and they had to fix it. EW just showed the flaw in the Kaspersky code and was a victim of it. Kaspersky issued a fix and everything's fine now.

    Unfortunately, that doesn't make it easy for you to find the problem. Go through the BEFORE POSTING thread at the top and try some of the fixes there (start with FPCleaner). Update everything, disable certain things, etc.

    Good luck.


    Silence is Golden. Duct tape is Silver.
    Monday, September 6, 2010 10:44 PM
  • "Video card drivers?  WTF?  and what's a WPF?"

    As Bill said, WPF stands for Windows Presentation Foundation. WPF places demands on the video subsystem that were not present before. I used MS Blend 2 for a time just to check out Silverlight, and it was recommended that users with older cards and drivers update their video subsystem. Now that EW 4 (and EW 3) use WPF, that recommendation makes a lot of sense.

    --P


    Columbia, CA. USA The Gilded Moon-Sierra Nevada Photography
    "If you want nice fresh oats, you have to pay a fair price. If you can be satisfied with oats that have already been through the horse; that comes a little cheaper."
    Monday, September 6, 2010 10:52 PM
  • Here's my deal with EW4 so far.
    I received it in the mail last week, loaded it on a new $298.00 emachine ( gift ) from Walmart after I downloaded net 4.0.

    Loaded just fine, didn't take long, it activated automatically. Opens fast, runs fast and have no issues with it. I spent some time poking around with it sorta getting oriented to it. I opened a site in it and did an upgrade and published it with FPSE...no problems. I opened another site in it and did an upgrade and used Filezilla to ftp the changes to the server and had no problems and it went up fast.

    I'll get more into as time goes on but so far I'm well pleased with EW4 and the $298.00 machine I have it on. It seems to be as fast to me as EW2 is on an older machine with XP.  I've had no Norton or any other kind of issues with it so far and today I spent 8 hours working in EW4.

    Just my 2 cents worth

    Tuesday, September 7, 2010 12:58 AM
  • Listen to what you're saying.  I buy and load a software application and my computer more than satisfies the prerequisites, but it runs slow, but nothing else runs slow, even Design 4 or EW 1 or EW 2, but EW 4 is more dependent on MFP (for some reason), so therefore my drivers are bad or old or something; but you say it's not the way EW 4 was designed.  If EW 2 is fine and everything else is fine, but EW 4 is not because MS changed the design, then the problem is the design and not my computer.  And no one can tell me where to start looking for the problem.  Look, let's start a checklist; if EW 4 runs slow (open/save/scroll/and so on):

    1.  Repair the dotnet platform 4 installation.  Then uninstall/reinstall EW4.  

    2.  Go to System Mechanic and Norton or whatever and turn off all the automatic gadgets you do not need.  What other services or applications should one look for?

    3.  Always open a site from the Site Menu (for some bizarre reason that seems anti-thetical to UI guidelines and MS's Manual of Style). 

    4.  Try installing MS Visual Web Developer 2010 Express. 

    4.  What else? 

    Cliff

    Tuesday, September 7, 2010 1:49 AM
  • EW3 was virtually a complete rewrites of the code, EW4 is an upgrade to it. EW1 and EW2 were not based on WPF, and they carried over a lot of FP and Office code. So any comparison of them is moot. EW 3 and 4 may as well be two entirely different programs, just as the new Camaro has absolutely nothing in common with the last car that bore that name. You can't compare 1 & 2 to 3 & 4.

    Kathy's answer above, which you seem to object to, was exactly to the point. She pointed that person directly to the answer. What purpose would it serve to spoon feed it to him and type all the instructions over again? We're all volunteers here, taking a few minutes break now and then to try to help. No sense in wasting time that is freely given. If you had looked around, you'd see that there are few people here who have helped more people than Kathy has. And she doesn't need a lesson in ettiquette.

    The folks from MS who do drop in have been stumped by the few reports of this slowness. They don't doubt it exists, but they can't replicate it (none of us regulars can either). It seems to be as elusive as the old Windows XP BSoD that were caused by a video card makers's third-party driver software; once that was discovered, over 75% of the BSoD problems vanished. There are tens of thousands of people running EW just fine; that's what makes it vexing.

    I wouldn't start with dotNet, just because it's a major hassle to uninstall it and make sure it's all cleaned out then reinstall all the pieces (I wish MS had done a better job with that process). I'd just start by updating all drivers (from the manufacturer), drop video hardware acceleration down a few notches (that'll be different on each system, set color depth to 16-bit, make sure you're running native resolution, etc. I'd kill all unnecessary processes (and Norton) one at a time and see what happens.

    Not good news, but you may be the one who finds the cure.


    Silence is Golden. Duct tape is Silver.
    Tuesday, September 7, 2010 2:37 AM
  • What is it about this forum that induces logic lock (akin to vapor lock, only of the reasoning process)? Thousands upon thousands of users install and use EW without issue. I did, and do, and have for every vesion from EW2 on. My experience, and that described by slewfoot above, and those of hundreds of other habitués of the forum, including all of the regulsr contributors, is that EW4 installs and runs and functions as expected.

    That clearly is not possible. We all must be imagining things, obviously, because a small number of users have problems either installing or running EW4, therefore EW4 must be buggy and be the source of the problem they're having. It couldn't possibly be that they have a program, driver, or device that is interacting with EW to produce the symptoms they are observing.

    Somehow, those who experience these issues steadfastly refuse to see how logically inconsistent that is. If the problem were inherent in EW, everyone would experience it, not just a handful.

    Not that EW doesn't have an issue or two. Any program of the size and scope of EW will be bound to have a glitch or two. Those that have been found are documented in the BEFORE POSTING and Installation Issues threads. As it happens, the most widespread and pernicious issue to come up with EW4 was not EW4's fault. It was caused by third-party security software, and has been acknowledged by them and a fix issued, by them.

    Unlike Apple, which controls with an iron fist its hardware platform and peripherals, and a good deal of its software, neither Microsoft nor any other PC software vendor can possibly test on every conceivable variation of hardware and software combinations extant on the PC platform. There simply aren't the resources, even if it were possible to ken all of the possible ways a PC might be configured. And even if there could be found the resources, and some magical process enabled determining all the ways in which a PC might be rigged, there isn't time enough to do it. If PC software underwent such testing, we'd still be waiting for Windows 95 and Photoshop 6.

    Something, some hardware, software, driver, something is interacting with EW on those machines experiencing problems. There is nothing Microsoft can do about it absent a reproducible case that they can replicate in their testing labs. Every single time that such a case has been brought to them, they have acknowledged it and tried to fix it, either in a service pack or in the next version. Every time! Paul has more than once issued a personal guarantee that if a reproducible case can be provided, he will see that the necessary resources are put on it to see that it is resolved.

    I know it must be frustrating to have these issues and be unable to get them resolved. But, blaming the software without having a firm, reproducible instance of where it is at fault is footless and achieves nothing. Provide the necessary information and MS will be happy, even eager to work on resolving the problem. Whine and moan and complain about the software and you accomplish nothing.

    cheers,
    scott


    C'mon, folks. This isn't rocket science, nor neurosurgery. It's "Expression" (singular) "Web" (singular), in that order, followed by a version numeral if you wish to be specific. It is often abbreviated "EW." It is not "Web Expression," "Expressions Web," "Web Expressions," or plain "Expression" or "Expressions." Not using the correct name indicates either ignorance or laziness. Most folks would rather avoid the appearance of either.
    Tuesday, September 7, 2010 2:58 AM
  • Bill,

    Regarding problem with EW 4 running slow (open, close, scroll).

    I installed MS Visual Web Developer 2010 Express.  Fixed the problem without making any other changes.

    Thanks for the note.

    Cliff

    Since installing MS Visual Web Developer 2010 Express, EW 4 is a dream to work with, meaning that it moves with me; I don't have to wait for it.  Before installing VWD, every time I opened or closed EW 4, every time I opened  or closed a file, and every time I moved the scroll bar or used the cursor movement/space/backspace/delete keys, EW 4 lugged and jerked and took forever to do the simple tasks mentioned (and without a flutter from the system resource monitors).

    EW 4 is now the tool that I needed and expected from MS.  EW 4 is even faster than EW 1 or EW 2.  (I tried and returned EW 3 because it was so slow and I waited for the release of EW 4.)  Now I have what I paid for.

    Cliff

    • Proposed as answer by Bill Pearson Tuesday, September 7, 2010 4:09 AM
    • Edited by Cliff_Sutherland Wednesday, September 8, 2010 11:23 PM iteration of detail
    Tuesday, September 7, 2010 3:18 AM
  • I use some very expensive CAD software also and before I do an upgrade or change machines I always check out the CAD forums and read what if to see what any issuses may be with the program and see if I may have a problem with a driver, etc....not go to a forum and cry with no knowledge of the program. . I did the same on EW3 and decided to wait for another upgrade.  I waited, read this forum then said aw shucks and bought EW4.

    When I got ready to install EW4 I was "loaded for bear" for any issues because of reading this forum and was actually not expecting any problems because I had checked this new machine and made sure it was ready from reading this forum. I worked in EW4 all day today and never had to reboot my computer. If I was unsure about something then I read the HELP FILES and they answered my questions.

    When I upgraded to Adobe Photoshop cs4 I kept reading about it being a memory hog so I upgraded the memory on the machine it runs on and have had no bogged down memory issues because I took the time to read other's reviews on it.

    Thank you guru's for your support in this forum...you kept me from being a frustrated bum when I decided to go with EW4 because I took your advice and was ready for the upgrade.

    Tuesday, September 7, 2010 3:36 AM
  • Cliff:

    That's great! It sounds, then, as though VWD overwrote a file that both programs share (at least on your computer). I clicked Propose as Answer so that it might catch the eye of some folks from MS who wander by from time to time.


    Silence is Golden. Duct tape is Silver.
    Tuesday, September 7, 2010 4:13 AM
  • IndyDog,

    Your post made me laugh. Thanks for the last two sentences.


    MS MVP Expression Tutorials & Help http://by-expression.com


    I can not laugh anymore about that!

    First the anger with the plugins in VBA not supported anymore, plus the need to redesign it all in C# and then from EW2 to EW4 in every single version on always other machines the effect that one of these versions run fast and the others not. And now the solution to not use drag and drop or File->Open but Site->Open is beautiful!

    Another thing I tried out without any "3rd party software": Install into Virtual PC 2007 a naked xp-32bit sp3, no updates!! and then into that EW4. Especially good when you have an x64 windows and more than 1 physical CPU. You will never get it running as fast as that when you start it outside the VM, I tried it out with naked vista x64 sp1 + ew4 (then feels like reacting half as good as inside the VM after limiting to 1 cpu  .. but it works ..). After installing vstudio08+vstudio10 and a handful of office and other stuff, -just microsoft products!!!- the fun is over and switching between code and design view in ew4 with a vanilla empty html-page takes around 5-7 seconds. All done with dual x5472 and 12GB RAM. I admit, after installing Norton AV and a ton of other tools it is still getting slower, then it takes always over 8 seconds to switch from design to code. The highlight was (in my eyes) 10 seconds for pressing TAB in the code-view until it reacted.

    What I do not understand, after reading paladyn's logical and coherent explanation, is that all the other tools I installed were working properly and were not getting slower. EW3 + EW4 are really the only tools I ever had on this machine that got slower. And now it runs almost 60% as fast as inside the VM when I use the site-menu to open something. Are you really sure this is not a problem of EW4??

    Why do other tools have no such problems, like starting one instance after the other of visual-studio '08 with eleven 3rd-party plugins, AV and local iis, db-server and 200+ processes active?

    Monday, September 13, 2010 10:14 PM
  • " EW3 + EW4 are really the only tools I ever had on this machine that got slower."

    And yet, they are not slow for me, on two systems, with Visual Studio, Office, assorted server tools, and dozens of other programs installed.

    The logic still applies: whatever is going on with your system is not consistent on all (most) systems, and if you can get a reproducible case to Microsoft (on the MS Connect site, not on this user forum), I'm sure they'd be happy to see if they can reproduce the problem and chase it down.

    Monday, September 13, 2010 11:30 PM
  • The logic still applies: whatever is going on with your system is not consistent on all (most) systems, and if you can get a reproducible case to Microsoft (on the MS Connect site, not on this user forum), I'm sure they'd be happy to see if they can reproduce the problem and chase it down.

    I think that Connect Site is a dead backwater. All the bug reports prior to August have disappeared and one question asked where they went and no one has answered. I suspect that no one is paying any attention to it. How can they just delete all the bug reports? Like should we re-post all the bugs we know about that did not get fixed in version 4? There should be a way to find the status of bug reports that we are following!
    Monday, September 13, 2010 11:50 PM
  • It looks like they've redesigned the Connect Site. So, it may be that the tickets are all there and that just some poor schmuck has messed up the display aspect. Maybe this work has been outsourced to India.
    Tuesday, September 14, 2010 12:07 AM
  • I think that Connect Site is a dead backwater.

    I think so too. Nevertheless I did as suggested and posted this case again.
    Tuesday, September 14, 2010 8:39 AM
  • I think that Connect Site is a dead backwater. All the bug reports prior to August have disappeared and one question asked where they went and no one has answered. I suspect that no one is paying any attention to it. How can they just delete all the bug reports? Like should we re-post all the bugs we know about that did not get fixed in version 4? There should be a way to find the status of bug reports that we are following!

    The Expression Web team switched from using Product Studio to using TFS to manage its bug reports.  Unfortunately, this broke all of the old connections to Connect.  New bugs filed to Connect are being linked to the team's TFS database and should be processed just as they have been all along.  The old bugs were migrated from Product Studio, as well, but that migration could not replicate the link to Connect.  The team is definitely paying attention to any and all issues that are filed via Connect.


    Paul Bartholomew
    Wednesday, September 15, 2010 3:46 PM
    Moderator
  • Kathy,

    I do not understand why you believe Microsoft's customers should have to research and create reproducible cases for the manufacturer of the product.  We all understand that you do not have the problem, so it's not a problem for you.  I'm happy for you. 

    I worked twenty years for IBM (and I have often thought of Microsoft as much more competent and responsible than IBM) and I can tell you from experience that nothing is more frustrating and challenging than an intermittent bug. 

    This is a bug for EW 4, even if it is not within the EW 4 code (but I think at least one bug is in the code or in the installation).  The fact is, there may be two or more overlapping bugs and Microsoft does not seem very interested in pinning down the problem.  I know you don't care and I know why, but that doesn't help us.  The new version of the foundation may have a bug, EW 4 may have a bug or more, and you have already identified factors like some security software (not identified in the requirements) that may cause a problem.  I believe that some machines, when presented with a confluence of bugs in the foundation and EW 4, have a problem with glacial performance.  The problem is intermittent, not necessarily in a single machine, but across a population of machines because of this overlap of previously unrelated bugs and machine conditions (that is, unrelated or unrecognized by human dsesigners and testers). 

    It takes time and discipline to separate these factors because they may interact in different ways on different machines.  I don't expect you to do it, but Microsoft can and should invest the effort before more of these problems further complicate the effort to troubleshoot them.

    EW 4 continues to perform very well for me, but I still cringe every time I start it.  Have I "fixed" the problem?  Or, will it return with the next release of the foundation?

    Cliff

    Wednesday, September 15, 2010 6:23 PM
  • " do not understand why you believe Microsoft's customers should have to research and create reproducible cases for the manufacturer of the product. "

    Because how else is MS supposed to debug cases that only occur for a few people and not everyone, and not themselves?  If they can't reproduce it, how can they chase down the problem?  Paul (who is from Microsoft) has repeatedly asked for help with things like this.

    Note that there is a difference in meaning between what I said, "if you can get a reproducible case to Microsoft" and what you said I said, that "customers should have to reasearch and create reproducible cases".  I implied no obligation.  But I pointed to a way that could help Microsoft find the problem.

    Wednesday, September 15, 2010 6:50 PM
  • FWIW, they have found and fixed at least half a dozen cuases of slowdowns in Expression Web but they have not been able to fix all of them because they are frequently caused by problems that only occur in specific combinations of hardware and other software installed on the computer.

    I haven't experienced the slowdowns reported on any of the 7 computers I've used Expression Web on with 4 different operating systems (if you include systems running Windows via Parallels on a Mac). What you can't reproduce you can't fix. That is why MS has asked if anyone can reliably trigger the slowdown problem on their machine they want to know about it. The problems that were fixed were due in large parts due to folks who did provide files and error logs.

    Unlike Apple programs there is a wide variety of hardware/software combinations that can cause issues since MS doesnt dictate hardware used. This is both a pro and a con. A pro because it means systems are widely available at reasonable costs and a con because MS can't control what hardware & drivers are used.


    MS MVP Expression Tutorials & Help http://by-expression.com
    Thursday, September 16, 2010 6:30 PM
  • Cheryl,

    I understand too well how difficult such problems can be, but a software application should be independent of hardware and firmware; if not, the result can be a nightmare for maker and user.  (I have a plain vanilla Dell Studio XPS with twice the required resources.)  I also support proprietary operating systems and applications with carefully defined interfaces.  How else to get reliability and meaningful error messages?  (I stay away from strangeware and expect only MS products to play well together.  Some may hate Dell and MS, but I try to steer away from problems.)

    In any case, I also understand the need for support from the user community and I promise to try to document any problems with EW 4 so that MS can fix them.  (The thing is that I tried to avoid the problems I saw in EW 3 by sticking with EW 2 until EW 4 came along.)  I use to document and teach disaster recovery for mainframe systems, but problems like this one are actually much more difficult in many ways.  I'm glad you're on board to help because...well, I used to work on my own cars until I lifted the hood and recognized nothing. 

    Cliff

    Friday, September 17, 2010 12:19 AM
  • Modern software is rarely hardware independent, especially those applicaitons that rely heavily on the video subsystem. Expression Web starting with v3 is heavily reliant on the Windows Presentation Foundation which does have minimum video requirements. If your system won't run Aero for example (Vista/Win 7) the odds are better that you will have problems with EW 3+. It is also reliant on dotnet 3.5 for v3 & 4.0 for v4. This is used by other parts of Windows and seems to get corrupted on some systems. That's why reinstalling dotnet fixes some issues. Another poster found that installing Visual Web Developer Express 2010 "fixed" his issue since some dlls are shared between the two applications and installing it appears to have overwritten the dll that was causing issues with a clean copy.

    You should see the hardware requirements some of my kids games require. I'm talking serious video requiremens with some requiring a full gig of dedicated video ram. System requirements for Expression Web are not that high. (fortunately)


    MS MVP Expression Tutorials & Help http://by-expression.com & Expression Web forums
    Friday, September 17, 2010 1:33 AM
  • Cheryl,

    I run Vista Aero; never had a problem running Vista or anything else on my year-old system.  I have never quibbled with the necessity of exceeding the hardware or foundation requirements for my software.  I always expect products developed by the Intel/Dell/Microsoft cabal to play well together when I comply with the published requirements. 

    You make an interesting comment about "modern" software not being independent of modern hardware

    Are you telling me that after the last half-century of progress (segregating the software from the hardware) that Microsoft is intent on moving us back to that old nightmare of "here's the software, now try to make it work?"  That is anti-progress, unnecessary, and wrong.  Of course, hardware manufacturers have much to be ashamed of when it comes to maintaining drivers, but that should be another issue.

    Cliff

    Saturday, September 18, 2010 5:28 PM
  • Drivers are a big issue with hardware and was the primary problem in the early days of Vista.

    More and more software applications are relying on hardware acceleration and subsystems whether you like it or not. The speed differences are pretty impressive when you do video rendering or other things that need graphics power.


    MS MVP Expression Tutorials & Help http://by-expression.com & Expression Web forums
    Saturday, September 18, 2010 7:12 PM
  • Well, chalk up another slow instance of EW4.

    And I will have to say that it is ironic. EW1 and EW2 also had issues, where they could peg the CPU, particularly if you had spell checking on. I never had any such issues with EW3. But with EW4 it's back, and this time Code view seems to take the biggest toll. And you talk about drivers, etc etc. Fact is: the process that pegs one of my CPU cores is Expression Web.

    The machine runs Vista Ultimate SP2 x64, has an AMD processor and nVIDIA driver. Anti-Virus is Kaspersky, and yes, I was hit by that bug. I don't have Visual Web installed, but I installed VS2010 prior to install EW4.

    Too bad that MS cannot repro it. Well, if there is anything I can help them with I am available.

    I don't have any pressing need to run EW4, I still have EW3 around. I recently filed two bugs for EW3, but I check: they are in EW4 as well.

    And no matter what you say, this is a flaw in EW4 - there is nothing else on my machine that behaves this way.

    (Hm, possibly relevant. I still had EW2 on the machine, but I uninstalled it later. I think I also swept out one of the Silverlight SDKs.)
    Erland Sommarskog, SQL Server MVP, esquel@sommarskog.se
    Links for SQL Server Books Online:
    SQL 2008: http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/sqlserver/cc514207.aspx
    SQL 2005: http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/sqlserver/bb895970.aspx
    SQL 2000: http://www.microsoft.com/sql/prodinfo/previousversions/books.mspx
    Tuesday, September 28, 2010 10:12 PM