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MAC Font Smoothing on Windows PLEASE!!!

    General discussion

  • Hi,

    I really wish I can see the same font smoothing of the MAC OS on Windows 8 because it is REALLY sharp, bold, very black and crisp. I enjoy it a lot and that's why I have Safari installed. Even though it is a naive browser for my taste but the only good thing in it is that it makes reading much more enjoyable because Safari has the same font rendering technology of the MAC OS. I'd love Windows a lot if it has the same font smoothing technology applied in it all over the places.

    I'm sorry to say it but ClearType Technology doesn't compare at all with its competitor technology in the MAC. No need to invent the wheel. Microsoft can license it from MAC OR come up with an equivalent solution that can provide the same (if not better) font smoothing.

    Thanks in advance.


    Maged
    Monday, November 28, 2011 5:00 AM

All replies

  • Just to underestand better could you provide us screenshot of what you are explaining and do some comparison and tell us what are you expecting using some images.
    Monday, November 28, 2011 9:15 AM
  •  >  Just to underestand better could you provide us screenshot of what you are explaining and do some comparison and tell us what are you expecting using some images.

     

    The last time you said that, WindowsDefender, you vanished when you got a reply:   Windows 8 Font Smoothing

     

    I saw this thread b4 but it's not ME!

    Maged
    Monday, November 28, 2011 11:06 AM
  • Well, the screenshots below can tell the difference. The second one is taken from Safari 5.5.1 running on Windows 7 x64 using the "Strong" setting for the "Font smoothing" option under the: Preference--->Appearance section. The first one is taken from Firefox 8.0.1. The difference is loud and clear. This is true for ALL webpages. I wished if Microsoft had this thing all over Windows (e.g. Applications other than Safari, dialog boxes, message boxes, menus,...etc. - Just EVERYWHERE!!.

     


    Maged


    • Edited by magoood Monday, November 28, 2011 11:17 AM
    Monday, November 28, 2011 11:14 AM
  • Well, the screenshots below can tell the difference.
    Hate to tell you, but I prefer the FireFox one. For me me the Safari one is too black and looks slightly smudged.
     

    David Wilkinson | Visual C++ MVP
    Monday, November 28, 2011 11:35 AM



  • Done. I took new screenshots for the same area (my post) but in png this time. First shot is from FF. Second one is from Safari (LOVE IT)
    Maged
    Monday, November 28, 2011 11:36 AM
  • It's totally fine for me if some people hate it. At least, I wish to see this technology available in the first place in Windows and then anyone can choose whatever setting he/she wants (The same way apple implemented it in their Safari browser under Windows)


    Maged
    • Edited by magoood Monday, November 28, 2011 12:15 PM
    Monday, November 28, 2011 12:15 PM
  • Well, I can't honestly say I like that strong setting.

    But I'd love to have 5 options at my fingertips.  That's Safari is it?

    Yeah, it's Safari 5.5.1 for Windows. Forget about the mac pointer. I just grabbed and installed the mac osx mouse cursors and it works fine under win7 x64

    Maged
    Monday, November 28, 2011 12:55 PM
  • Is there any hope that this thread may pick someone's attention in Microsoft? OR am i just talking in space?!
    Maged
    Tuesday, November 29, 2011 11:17 PM
  • You can submit feedback using the Windows Feedback Tool from the Connect Site associated with your Windows Developer Preview program. If you’re an MSDN subscriber, the information on how to join the Connect program is included on the download page where you installed Windows Developer Preview. There’s a link to the Connect site and an invitation code that you can click on to join using a Windows Live ID account. If you’re not an MSDN subscriber follow this limited use link to join the Connect program and then follow the steps here.

    If you are prompted for an invitation code, please enter the following key. MSDN-76H9-3CFP

    https://connect.microsoft.com/site1147/InvitationUse.aspx?ProgramID=7221&InvitationID=MSDN-76H9-3CFP


    Marilyn
    Wednesday, November 30, 2011 3:13 AM
    Moderator
  • The screen grabs you put up look overly thick from my perspective.  Your monitor may be maladjusted if you feel you need it to be that thick.

    Have you run the Windows Adjust ClearType Text application?   Beyond monitor adjustments, that can be used to tune the font smoothing within Windows to be darker for you.

    That said, the thing you really SHOULD be requesting here, rather than browser-based font mangling that makes the display of the font chosen by the web designer inaccurate, is the choice of a stronger, better font by the Microsoft forum designers.  The Segoe UI being used by default for posts here is a very thin font and IE is rendering it accurately at the subpixel level.

    Note how thin Segoe UI looks, for example, at a much larger size:

    Segoe UI is just a thin font!

    Consider the font ("Arial") I have coded most of this response to use, for example.  Does it appear darker to you in IE?

    Arial is thicker.

    -Noel

    Wednesday, November 30, 2011 9:36 PM
  • Thin is clearly "in".

    I don't get your "chrome plated" comment.  It just looks like thin white text on a black background from here.  I can only guess you're seeing something weird because of oddball monitor settings.

    -Noel

    Thursday, December 1, 2011 3:21 AM
  • Well you can simply install gdipp to get OS X style rendering. Of course replacing the Windows text renderer is obviously an unsupported scenario.

    I agree. ClearType combined with too thin fonts like Segoe UI/Metro is sometimes harder to read with diminutive strokes.

    Or another thing you can try is install the XP powertoy version of the ClearType tuner. (http://www.microsoft.com/typography/cleartypepowertoy.mspx) Ignore the unsupported warning crap as it works just fine. It gives you more manual control over ClearType settings (not just a wizard to choose what looks best but manual contrast setting from darker to lighter). Set it to darkest to see if it makes some difference.

    • Edited by xpclient Thursday, December 1, 2011 4:03 PM
    Thursday, December 1, 2011 6:44 AM
  • xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

    Does Windows 8 look like the magnified screen grabs you're showing above to you through your coke bottle glasses when you look at the text at 100% original size?  Or do you put your face 6 inches from the screen due to your nearsightedness?

    I ask because for normal folks with properly set up displays it just looks like thin white text, with a consistent overall density. 

    There's no way to do sub-pixel rendering without mixing adjacent colors.  If you've thought of one, please feel free to share your ideas.

    Oh, and don't look now, but there are shades of gray in the text in the Safari screen grabs too.  ;)

    I'm not fond of the Windows 8 UI fonts being so thin - it's a poor artistic choice by Microsoft in my opinion.  I think their "style" department is apparently grasping at straws hoping for an "all new and improved" look and feel.  But it's pretty clear to me when to separate technical issues from artistic ones.

    -Noel


    Thursday, December 1, 2011 2:54 PM
  • It's good to know that you've found the brightness control.  Let's discuss gamma again one day, and how it can be right even with the brightness turned down - whenever you feel up to it.

    Regarding your obvious disdain for the "typical non-technical consumer"...  Get used to stuff being optimized for the masses, pal, and not you.  Microsoft apparently no longer gives a xxxxx about pleasing people who know what they're doing.  Our future may well be focused on something other than Windows.

    -Noel


    Thursday, December 1, 2011 5:43 PM
  • Please keep all remarks professional and on topic. Be respectful when dealing with other community members.
    You may not agree with another member's comments, but keep your responses polite.

    Sincerely,


    Marilyn
    Thursday, December 1, 2011 9:31 PM
    Moderator
  • Thank you, Marilyn.

    For those wondering about the disjointed appearance of my posts, above, I wasn't talking to myself.  Ed Nahuey in his current persona has, as he has done in the past, deleted all his responses.

    -Noel

    Friday, December 2, 2011 7:31 PM
  • @magoood

    That's not what the forums look like on my computer. Are you accessing them differently from the way I access them? I use the URL http://win8.ms/forums.

    Friday, December 2, 2011 10:21 PM
  • Not sure if you were trying to put up screen grabs, WindowsVista567, but they're not showing.  And always bear in mind that if you have tuned your ClearType smoothing for your particular system/monitor, a screen grab won't look the same on someone else's system as it does to you.

    I think there ws a forum update today, as they were down for a while, though I don't see much difference in terms of CSS.

    Regarding how a given page might look...

    Unfortunately some of the styles the forum sets up even sometimes seem to persist after navigation.  I'm not sure how Microsoft managed that, but what it means is that depending on how you get to a particular thread it can actually look different!  I've seen times when fonts look larger or smaller in the very same thread, depending on where I just was.  I haven't re-tested this today.

    Just for reference, this is a screen grab of what I see coming in through this link:

    http://social.msdn.microsoft.com/Forums/en-US/windowsdeveloperpreviewgeneral/threads

    Then clicking on the Mac Font Smoothing on Windows PLEASE!!! thread title:

     

     

    Keep in mind that all Microsoft's style choices appear to be influenced by a suggestion or mandate from within to move to thin, light text.  That's apparently what they have deemed "modern".

    For what it's worth, the Safari "Strong" font rendering setting looks dark and fuzzy to me by comparison to ClearType, which looks thinner and sharper.  I'd say ClearType does a better, cleaner job.   That's a personal preference.

    -Noel

    Friday, December 2, 2011 11:12 PM
  • @Noel Carboni

    You are right, I was trying to post a screenshot of the same thing that you posted a picture of.

    There is something strange going on in the forums - your explanation might explain why I am having problems. However, this only happens in Internet Explorer, so it is possible that the problem is with my computer and not the forum.

    When I tried to post screenshots in Firefox, the post would not update properly, and it looks like I added a bad image tag in the above post. Howeover, the forums are acting very strangely right now, and I'm not sure what is going on.

    Also, the post editor is suddenly not displaying correctly. I had to create the code for this post manually.

    I also cannot see the thread when I create a post - all I get is an HTML editor. Of course, since I couldn't post a screenshot of the forums, I can't post a screenshot of what I see right now, either.

    On the topic of the Mac font smoothing, I would say that the Safari image doesn't look as good as the image with regular font smoothing.

    Friday, December 2, 2011 11:18 PM
  • You might try clearing cookies.  I've not seen any problems here (outside the usual quirks) with the forum editor since the forums came back online earlier today.

    Speaking of which, I've always wondered why the editor uses font-family:Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif while the posted info ends up font-family: Segoe UI, Lucida Grande, Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif.

    -Noel

    Friday, December 2, 2011 11:37 PM
  • As a sample of what I was describing before, note the two different sizes shown in these two IE windows:

     

     

    They appear to pipe the same content through several different forum setups.

    -Noel

    Friday, December 2, 2011 11:46 PM
  • I see. Perhaps that explains the difference. My favorite forum design is the one used on the TechNet websites. The one used here seems to be more "Metro-style," and I don't like it as much as the ones in your most recent picture. As for the problems with the forum editor, they seem to be gone; your advice about deleting the cookies seems to have worked, and I can edit posts normally again.
    Friday, December 2, 2011 11:49 PM
  • @magoood

    To answer your question: Windows already has ClearType technology, which works very well if you tune it properly. On my computer, the Safari image you posted looks blurry compared to the other images in both instances. Besides, Windows includes the option to tune ClearType. So, will Windows 8 use Mac font smoothing? I think the answer is "no."

    Friday, December 2, 2011 11:53 PM
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    Segoe UI 9pt






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    Segoe UI 9pt


    Extracted from Internet Explorer 9 Clear Type Disable?


    @WindowsVista567, could you describe what you see with these html greyscales? Are theygrey?

    @magoood, can you post a png screen-shot of these with your Safari? Thanks.

    The grayscales are only gray when I turn ClearType off.


    • Edited by WindowsVista567 Saturday, December 3, 2011 1:15 PM Quoting Ed Nahuey in case he deletes his post
    Saturday, December 3, 2011 12:31 AM
  • Evidently, you don't. However, IE9 isn't as bad as it could be. Those "grayscales" on the black background look green in Firefox.

    Saturday, December 3, 2011 12:44 AM
  • @Ed Nahuey

    I just downloaded Safari and tried this "Strong" setting for myself. Your grayscales now look pink. I can't say I really care for the font smoothing - everything is blurry and thicker than it needs to be, even after I turn off ClearType. Evidently Safari will not upload this post? I had to copy and paste it into Internet Explorer.


    I also don't care for the "Medium" setting - I like ClearType better.


    Saturday, December 3, 2011 12:51 AM
  • @Ed Nahuey

    I did not recommend disabling ClearType in my proposed answer. When I said that those grayscales only look gray when I turn ClearType off, I was viewing them in Firefox becasue Internet Explorer would not disable ClearType. Besides, the color banding in IE is not extreme.


     

    @magoood

    To answer your question: Windows already has ClearType technology, which works very well if you tune it properly. On my computer, the Safari image you posted looks blurry compared to the other images in both instances. Besides, Windows includes the option to tune ClearType. So, will Windows 8 use Mac font smoothing? I think the answer is "no."

     That is my proposed answer. Basically, what I was saying is that Windows will not include Mac font smoothing becasue ClearType is just as good, if not better. Safari's font smoothing also causes a color to appear other than gray in the grayscale.

    Saturday, December 3, 2011 1:19 AM
  • @Ed Nahuey

    I'm not trying to discredit magoood's opinion. All I'm saying is that I like ClearType better than Mac font smoothing. All I did was point out that Windows 8 will not include Mac font smoothing because we already have ClearType. As for the two comparison screenshots, I see what you mean about IE9 based on the screenshots, but my own display does not look like what you posted in your screenshot. In the IE8 window, I have to look very closely for it to not look green. Here's something interesting: These are your black bars in Internet Explorer 6:

    Basically, what I'm saying is that the only way to remove the colored appearance is to turn off the more advanced font smoothing options.

    Saturday, December 3, 2011 1:46 AM
  • The TechNet site appears to be using smaller font size, which would explain why everything is more blurry.

    This will be the last of my comments on this topic for now.

    Saturday, December 3, 2011 2:13 AM
  • xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxNot that there's anything wrong with ClearType or IE9's implementation of it, but that you can consistently put others off to the point where they prefer to cease talking with you.  xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

    Out of curiosity, have you followed the advice in http://support.microsoft.com/kb/2638466 and has it helped things look any better for you?

    -Noel


    Saturday, December 3, 2011 3:49 AM
  • Hello everyone,

     

    We encourage everyone to treat each other with mutual respect. Please remember that this discussion was started by Magoood to discuss font smoothing. Please stay on topic and keep comments/remarks about other users to yourself.


    Steven
    Saturday, December 3, 2011 4:06 AM
    Moderator
  • Have you followed the advice in http://support.microsoft.com/kb/2638466 and has it helped things look any better for you?

    -Noel

    Saturday, December 3, 2011 4:25 AM
  • All said, Magood led us to a very informative and useful discussion. I personally learnt considerably from the discussion here.
    Irfan
    Saturday, December 3, 2011 4:55 AM
  • @Ed Nahuey

    No, I was not being disrespectful to magoood and his opinion. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion here, and I respectfully disagree with magoood's ideas. I also do not believe that Microsoft will add Mac font smoothing to Windows 8, which is why I marked that statement as a proposed answer.

    As for turning off ClearType, I apparently forgot to mention that I tested turning off ClearType with Firefox.


    Saturday, December 3, 2011 12:39 PM
  • Still no luck posting images, WindowsVista567?  I saw last night that you had tried again without success.

    Here's an experiment for those wishing to see how positionally accurate their font rendering is.   Here's the alphabet in 3 different fonts in multiple different sizes. 

    Does the difference in weights at each size appear to consistently increase?

    Do the line lengths appear consistent relative to one another (i.e., does the z of the last line fall under exactly the same character from the previous line in each case)?

     

     

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    AbCdEfGhIjKlMnOpQrStUvWxYz

    AbCdEfGhIjKlMnOpQrStUvWxYz

     

    AbCdEfGhIjKlMnOpQrStUvWxYz

    AbCdEfGhIjKlMnOpQrStUvWxYz

    AbCdEfGhIjKlMnOpQrStUvWxYz

     

    -Noel



    Saturday, December 3, 2011 1:21 PM
  • In the fonts you posted, the weights do seem to increase consistently. There are no problems that I can find.

    One more question about the screenshots you posted: how did you display the page title in the title bar if IE9?

    Saturday, December 3, 2011 1:27 PM
  • Here's an animated illustration of the screen grabs from two different browsers, just to illustrate the differences.  Note that at the larger sizes, the two are relatively consistent, but at the smaller sizes Firefox has opted to alter the font rendering in a way that causes positional inaccuracy, as well as darkening.  This is because of character pixel alignment - touted as a "feature" to increase readability, but unfortunately it comes at the expense of consistency and predictability.

     

     

    -Noel

    Saturday, December 3, 2011 1:47 PM
  • I never thought to compare it like that. I prefer the Internet Explorer 9 font smoothing - the font is slightly easier to read at smaller font sizes.
    Saturday, December 3, 2011 1:56 PM
  • Here's an animated comparison between IE9 and Safari 5 with the Strong font rendering setting, as Magoood above has proposed.

    I don't know about you, but I just don't see the small fonts as more readable in either Firefox or Safari.

     

     

    -Noel

    Saturday, December 3, 2011 1:57 PM
  • It seems to depend on the font sizes. Overall, though, I prefer Internet Explorer's font smoothing.
    Saturday, December 3, 2011 2:05 PM
  • @Ed Nahuey

    There is nothing wrong with Noel Carboni's posts that I can find. The fonts in the pictures look exactly like what appears on the page.

    It is not a put-down to disagree with someone. Even though I disagree with magoood, I respect his opinion - besides, it is possible that Microsoft will choose to modify ClearType for Windows 8.

    By the way, I have tuned ClearType for my monitor. Here is another comparison of the black bars image on MSDN vs. TechNet:
    This one is MSDN:

    Here is TechNet:

    Both images captured using Internet Explorer 9. On my computer, the black bars in TechNet do not show any color banding, but they look uneven. In MSDN, the black bars have a kind of "rainbow" effect affecting them.

    Remind me where the black bars came from? We have established that ClearType is not perfect and can affect the way fonts are displayed, but so does Safari. Neither one is perfect, and the only way to display fonts perfectly is to turn off any and all font smoothing.

    Saturday, December 3, 2011 6:36 PM
  • My screen grabs are intended only to show the differences in positional accuracy and relative weight, browser-to-browser and font-to-font, and they do that marvelously well.  Yours do that too - consider that if the browser is really doing its job there should really be no differences in line lengths, text wrap points, etc.

    Regarding how they look...  Mine were grabbed from my properly calibrated gamma 2.20 system with particular monitors on which I have tuned the font rendering process to look good to me.  I suggested all readers do such tuning in my first post abovexxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

    In addition to making different Cleartype Tuner choices, you appear to have intentionally miscalibrated your setup to gamma 1.0. 

    These things imply you have made different choices in tuning than I have - not a problem per se, but one is left to wonder why you would do so, then complain about the results.  xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

    Your repeated attempts to try to show how fonts look, weight-wise, with screen grabs from a maladjusted and/or poorly performing system (yours) displayed on a completely different system (the reader's) xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

    At first I suspected you lacked understanding of the technical issues, but I have explained them to you and it's clear you're capable of understanding.

    Then I considered that you may have poor computer display hardware, but you xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

    Eliminating these possibilities makes it appear that your intent is to do something other than help people here.  Is there another alternative that I'm missing? xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

    Your comments clearly show that mistuning your system from the expected gamma settings is for some reason preferable to you, then you claim font rendering on such a mistuned system using other than the subpixel-based Cleartype-smoothed algorithms being used by Internet Explorer looks better to you.  How nice for you, but what does it have to do with the price of tea in China?  Your argument and five dollars will buy coffee at Starbucks.

    xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

    *I* would still prefer the appearance IE9's font rendering to all others available today. 

    I'm sorry that others choices seem to bother you, but they are their choices!  Everyone's allowed to prefer what they like, for whatever reasons, and that's okay.

    It's great if you find the appearance of text in other browsers more pleasing - that's why it's good there are several browsers out there, all free.  Please, by all means, use the Safari browser - it's certainly not a bad choice.  I suggest, after performing the appropriate tuning, that if the appearance still bothers you perhaps you should even uninstall IE9 from your system so as to reduce the frustration it might cause you if Windows should bring it up instead of your preferred browser. 

    It would also be great if there were even more choices for settings in Windows that would make font rendering more pleasant for more folks.

    xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

    -Noel


    Sunday, December 4, 2011 1:52 PM
  • Edna Huey wrote:

    The nVidia default is 1.0 gamma, you xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

    ...

    You're really just a complete xxxxxxxxx xxxxx xxxx

    Thank you for being professional and respectful to others, and for making me laugh!  :)

    -Noel



    Sunday, December 4, 2011 3:34 PM
  • LOL!

    A piece of advice:  Don't propose to judge anything by what you see on a laptop display.  It is well-known that laptop displays are optimized for things other than display quality.

    -Noel

    Sunday, December 4, 2011 3:40 PM
  • When I put my video gamma to 2.2, the other browsers look too faded. 


    Perhaps I was wrong in judging that you understand your computer's display system.

    I have never said your Gamma adjustment in your display driver configuration screen should be set to 2.20.  That would imply I knew what display adapter you have and what version of drivers you're running.  I just didn't happen to be monitoring your system remotely, so I didn't know these things.

    As I have tried to inform you before, your system needs to have a gamma response of 2.20 for best overall display performance.  For that Microsoft offers display calibration dialogs, companies make professional display profiling and calibration packages, and I have provided you with at least one calibration check target (which, possibly because your laptop just CAN'T display it properly, you dismissed).

    Complaining that you don't like what you see, yet refusing to understand that it's your own fault (for using inferior hardware and/or using it improperly), and ignoring experts who try to help you improve what you're seeing just seems unlikely to lead to any kind of improvement for you.  If you want things to "just work", maybe you should be using a Macbook?

    -Noel

    Sunday, December 4, 2011 3:54 PM
  • So you're agreeing that the Segoe UI font, chosen by the forum designers here, is too thin for the purpose, and that artificially thickening it in an inaccurate rendition works around that problem and helps readability?

    I have no problem with that.  I believe I already said it, above.

    Now get up, walk across the room, and read this:

    Microsoft is clearly adopting a "thin is in" theme for fonts in its modern products and web pages, apparently as part of a "simpler is better" thrust, and to make things seem "New and Improved!".  Why on Earth else would they choose anemic fonts like these? 

    Notice how much more modern all the above looks than the line that follows:

    Try not to be duped by such an obvious marketing gimmick.

    -Noel

    Sunday, December 4, 2011 5:15 PM
  • @Noel Carboni

    I do think it is odd that Segoe UI is used in the forums. I think that the Tahoma used for editing is better for this purpose.

    Segoe UI was designed as a replacement for Tahoma in the UI of applications like Microsoft Word. Here is where Segoe UI was originally designed to be used:

    This is the Microsoft Word 2007 Ribbon, with the Segoe UI font.

    Also, the discussion here seems to ignore the existence of serif fonts. This is "Constantia," which is one of Microsoft's ClearType fonts. I have found it to be a great font for reading smaller text on a computer screen. Constantia seems like a better font for reading on a computer screen than Segoe UI. Segoe UI is called Segoe UI because it was designed to be used in user interfaces - Constantia is better for reading general text. Even though Constantia is a serif font, it is not a print font and is designed to be viewed with ClearType font smoothing.


    @Ed Nahuey

    Hello everyone,

    We encourage everyone to treat each other with mutual respect. Please remember that this discussion was started by Magoood to discuss font smoothing. Please stay on topic and keep comments/remarks about other users to yourself.

    Please.

    Sunday, December 4, 2011 6:27 PM
  • It's just a matter of preference, but I find sans serif fonts a bit easier to recognize and read on computer screens myself.

    I'm not sure that I'm reading this output correctly, but it seems to me the editor font is Verdana, not Tahoma...

    -Noel

    Sunday, December 4, 2011 8:05 PM
  • Actually, I think you might be right about Microsoft using Verdana for the editor. Verdana is just a wider version of Tahoma, so it's an easy mistake to make. Here are some interesting MSDN blog posts on the subject:

    http://blogs.msdn.com/b/jensenh/archive/2005/11/16/493388.aspx

    http://blogs.msdn.com/b/jensenh/archive/2005/12/07/501009.aspx


    Sunday, December 4, 2011 9:24 PM
  • {Moderator note: The images that were referenced here have been renamed}

    Here's an actual serious, on-topic question (not aimed at anyone in particular):

    Is it better for a browser to work around a poor font choice by a web designer, or is it better to just do an accurate job of rendering a page?

    It's pretty clear what the answer is, don't you think?

    -Noel


    Monday, December 5, 2011 10:09 PM
  • Hi xpclient

    installed the Clear Type Tuner and set the slider to the Darkest, I could see no noticeable change in the font color/clarity.


    Irfan
    Tuesday, December 6, 2011 1:21 PM
  • On my monitor I do not find the Safari rendering more readable than the IE rendering - even though your captured IE rendering is lighter and thinner than what I see rendered on my system, presumably due to differences in ClearType tuning settings we have chosen.  Nor do I agree that the PNG posted above looks noticeably sharper than the earlier GIF.

    I have nothing more to say in this thread, except to offer one last font sample in Comic Sans MS at multiple sizes that folks may want to compare in different browsers:

    • "I was with the Stooges for 12 years and it was a very pleasant association but I just don't think they were funny."
    • "I was with the Stooges for 12 years and it was a very pleasant association but I just don't think they were funny."
    • "I was with the Stooges for 12 years and it was a very pleasant association but I just don't think they were funny."
    • "I was with the Stooges for 12 years and it was a very pleasant association but I just don't think they were funny."
    • "I was with the Stooges for 12 years and it was a very pleasant association but I just don't think they were funny."
    • "I was with the Stooges for 12 years and it was a very pleasant association but I just don't think they were funny."
    • "I was with the Stooges for 12 years and it was a very pleasant association but I just don't think they were funny."

    - quote from Curly Joe DeRita

    Since this thread has become slow to open because of quirks in Microsoft's scripting, it's probably about time for it to be closed or just left alone.

    -Noel


    • Edited by Noel Carboni Tuesday, December 6, 2011 4:30 PM Corrected typo
    Tuesday, December 6, 2011 1:55 PM