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Windows 8 is not all about Tablets, it’s about the future

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  • That post has a lot of mistakes. Apparently, this guy can't spell "tying" and has a few things to learn about comma placement.
    Saturday, February 18, 2012 6:25 PM
  • On Sat, 18 Feb 2012 18:25:37 +0000, WindowsVista567 wrote:

    That post has a lot of mistakes. Apparently, this guy can't spell "tying" and has a few things to learn about comma placement.

    "This guy" is a Microsoft Distinguished Engineer and a former GM at
    Microsoft. I'll take his insights over yours any day of the week, spelling
    or grammar errors notwithstanding.


    Paul Adare
    MVP - Forefront Identity Manager
    http://www.identit.ca
    You have junk mail.

    Saturday, February 18, 2012 7:40 PM
  • I must say I found the comments more interesting reading than the article but even those I gave up on halfway through.

    If I could run the same program on a computer, pad and phone then there would be some sense to a common OS. But I can't. Each has its place and purpose. Even if in a few years time a pad had the power of an i7 computer it would still need to allow the attachment of dual monitors, couple of 2Tb hard drives, blu-ray burner and (dare I say it) mouse and keyboard.

    ADDED

    Did I forget Printer, scanner, router and 5.1 speaker system?


    • Edited by d r h Saturday, February 18, 2012 9:46 PM
    Saturday, February 18, 2012 9:04 PM
  • @Paul Adare

    I didn't know that.

    As for the post, there's nothing "natural" about Metro. Metro with the mouse has to be one of the most unnatural user interfaces I have ever seen. It just isn't right.

    Saturday, February 18, 2012 11:42 PM
  • I must say I found the comments more interesting reading than the article but even those I gave up on halfway through.

    If I could run the same program on a computer, pad and phone then there would be some sense to a common OS. But I can't. Each has its place and purpose. Even if in a few years time a pad had the power of an i7 computer it would still need to allow the attachment of dual monitors, couple of 2Tb hard drives, blu-ray burner and (dare I say it) mouse and keyboard.

    ADDED

    Did I forget Printer, scanner, router and 5.1 speaker system?


    The win 8 tablets will come with docks.   There is actually no technical reason why these docks couldn't include HDMI outputs, additional diskspace and, in time, perhaps even additional horsepower.  As a matter of fact, I'm 110% positive that those docks will be more then just a stand to put the tablet on.  They WILL provide additional features and capabilities.

    Windows 8 is the perfect hybrid system in such a context.

    You'll have your tablet and that tablet will ALSO be your laptop and desktop.  Or at least: could be.

    So instead of having to buy a desktop, a laptop, a tablet and a phone...  You might actually be able to settle for ONLY a (dockable) tablet and a phone.

    I call that epic win, but that's just me.

    Sunday, February 19, 2012 1:58 PM
  • "New Dynamic", "future".

    Meh.

    For tech people I know, and even lightweight technology minded, their tablet experience went like this:

    Stage 1:  "This is the coolest thing ever, I can't believe I wasted money on that laptop last year, I should have waited".

    Stage 2:  "It has its place, and I sure enjoy not being tied down to a desktop, but my laptop is getting more use these days as the consumption of data does not define "computing", and I still need to "compute".

    Stage 3:  "I use the tablet for so little now, I wish I would have saved my money and upgraded to a better laptop, maybe one with touch, maybe not.  But I still find I get most of my real work done on my desktop machine with its bigger (and or multiple) display, the mouse is better than cleaning off greasy finger smudges, and I have enough power and screen space to get several things done at once.

    For those with no desktop or laptop, the tablets are a great toy for consumption of media, no doubt.  There will be millions and millions sold.  Some will be happy as consumers, some will have that spark ignited where they have a desire to get real work done, which, no matter what the "future-bots" think, will still be done on desktops and laptops. 

    Some laptops will be touch enabled, but when you have a keyboard and a mouse (or traditional touch pad) you'll find users simply do not want to reach up to touch the screen to perform actions like font changes, row/column selections, even to expand the size of an image or window.  Why finger-smudge the screen when you don't have to?  Along with the font selection, set print area, all of the "traditional" uses for mice and pointers, these work fine with tightly packed objects, introducing touch means you MUST spread things out, and this kills productivity by forcing more layering of menu functions than we already have using today's mouse pointer activation.

    Some desktop screens will be touch capable, but strictly were it makes sense; in the same places it's been used for years, point of sale equipment, kiosks, and other purpose built, task specific work.  But for productivity, not a chance. 

    If we take the above at face value, we can see that tablets will have a market, but that market shoud not be confused with "computing".  Given that "computing" will exist forevermore, there will always be the need for laptops and desktops.  Some initial suffering in the laptop and desktop markets will happen as it will take time for people to learn the difference between consumption and productivity.  As time passes, enough will come to understand the stark differences, and laptop and desktop sales will hold at some steady rate (attrition from failures, those in search of better hardware and software, and of course those inspired by getting close to computing via tablets and taking the leap to actual productivity).

    Meanwhile, there will always be tablet sales, but not as some hope as a "new dynamic" but as media consumption devices.  You can have all kinds of external keyboards, displays, docking stations, mice (sorry to offend!) and all of the peripheral equipment you can envision, and it will still be left behind in terms of ease of use by the "old" laptop meme. 

    I can dock may laptop and have a near desktop experience (except raw power and capacity), and when I need to travel, I undock it, put it in the carry case, make sure the power supply and mouse (sorry again!!!) are in the case, I'm good to go, with nearly full capability of productivity on the road.

    What's that look like for a tablet owner?  Pack the dock, mouse (sorry!), power supply, external drive(s), tablet, keyboard and maybe even a produtivity supporting in terms of size display before they hit the road.

    A tablet is a tablet.  Yes, you can with relative ease form an entire industry segment to make that tablet act like something its design wasn't meant for.  I get that.  But it still won't be, at least in "full productivity form" as self-contained as a full-featured laptop, and no matter the strides in processor computing power and energy savings, will it ever be a suitable surrogate for a desktop computer.  

    In other words, I reject "Metro" as having any meaningful place on a desktop.  Trying to be flexible and turn a courteous ear towards those that still think a media consuption interface has a place on laptops, I yield, but please know even if I'm forced to buy a touch-enabled laptop by market edict, I won't be using touch, and I don't want my laptop applications having their menus spread out to accomodate those who will.

    Tablet?  I can see owning one when the price gets down to $200 or so.  Then I could see browsing during breakfast before I leave to get real computing done, I could see watching movies and traditional "consumption" tasks, but there is no way in h3ll I'm going to be paying for a data package in order to be able to consume anywhere, anytime.  And that's the killer.  I know people that spend over $200/month for their smartphone bills and data plans.  Then they pay well over $100 for cable or satellite TV.  I know many who EASY exceed both of these figures too, but let's just stick with the $300 right now.  That's $3600/year for entertainment.

    Not bloody likely you'll find me paying anywhere near that, I have a huge (conceptual not financial) problem paying $60/month for basic cable and internet access.

    I can afford most anything I need.  I can afford most anything I want.  But I cannot afford to consider entertainment as something I can't live without.  I've seen 6-8 kids walking through the mall together (prefaced I'm sure by a text "lets hang out at the mall") but no one is paying attention to one another, they're all busy "keeping in touch" with others not there with them, and while not reading their screens to be certain, I can be pretty sure the outbound messages read something like this: "You should be here man, me, daryll, dennis, todd, gretchin, sam, and kevin are all hanging out having an awesome time".  Passing by the same group some time later after have bought what I came to the mall for, all of those same kids were in essence still ignoring one another, but still engaged in "socializing" with those completely out of site. 

    And their mothers are sitting at home, happy to know their kids are out with their friends like they used to do when they were younger.

    How sad is THAT?

    DAS

    Tuesday, February 21, 2012 3:44 PM
  • Win7tester,
     
    >"New Dynamic", "future".
     
    >Meh.
     
    All I can say is that I have had a tablet for quite some time and still
    like and use it.
     
    I even bought a new Windows tablet to use in place of a laptop when
    traveling.  (Samsung Series 7 slate, i5 processor, 4G of RAM, and 128G
    SSD)  I love it.  I can use it as a totally portable device, just the
    slate itself, for meetings and quick support for my users, or I can use
    it in full desktop mode, docked with keyboard, mouse, for working in a
    hotel room.  I work with this machine and don't just consume media,
    though it isn't bad as a movie player for when I don't have something
    better to do.
     
    My i7 laptop has been relagated to desktop duty and it probably wont be
    replaced with a laptop, but another desktop.
     
    The controller and VP of the company I work for no longer carry
    laptops, they just carry iPads when traveling.  It's a lot easier for
    me to support them that way and they get something that is a lot less
    weight... (it was their suggestion after watching me use an iPad for
    support, not mine)
     

    Bob Comer - Microsoft MVP Virtual Machine
    Tuesday, February 21, 2012 4:01 PM
  • @Win7Tester: Your post was too long; didn't read it to the end.  But you're right about the fact that tablets are used primarily for consumption, not production of content.  But I'm an original iPad owner and I still use it everyday, and am looking forward to getting an iPad 3.
    Tuesday, February 21, 2012 4:31 PM
  • In essence, you repeated what I said, in order to be effective while on the road now you have to pack the dock and keyboard as well, leaving you stuck with the small display which is part and parcel of the portable experience.

    Meanwhile, I can close the top on my laptop with it 16.4 inch 1920x1080 display and lighted keyboard, multiple USB ports, ESATA, IEE1394, multi-card reader, expansion ports, GB enet and N/G wireless, and BlueTooth for my mouse; make sure the power brick is in the bag and I'm off.  Oh, I might want to toss in a few Blu-Ray discs if I'm expecting free time.

    Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to imply what you have doesn't work for you, but to replace your laptop you have to carry all manner of things to replace the functionality of a laptop and its power supply.

    My fear is there will become a plethora of companies seeking to turn tablets into workstations, people buying item after item to replace the missing functionality, and killing laptop development to some degree because people aren't willing to recognize that they now have to carry 6 more things along to get CLOSE to a laptop.

    And thats my point.  When used for what its design and ultimate portability are meant for, thats fine.  When you try and morph it into something its design and ultimate portability are actually hinderances for, now you've got the proverbial sow's ear masquerading as that silk purse.

    To each their own. 

    DAS

    Tuesday, February 21, 2012 5:15 PM
  • I understand "what" Microsoft is doing, but no amount of blogs or posts justifying "why" it was done will change my opinion of what I'm seeing in Windows 8 at this stage.  i.e. - All the justification on why the Start Menu was removed from the Desktop Interface. (counting pixel distance for using a mouse???  Seriously?!)  Or why Metro apps are the wave of the future.  (I can play angry birds all day long on my current cell phone and browse the web and get my email if I want.  And I still haven't heard definitively if you can run "all" your current Windows apps on an ARM processor device with Windows 8?  If not, then what's the point of ARM tablets & Windows 8 if you completely loose application compatibility within your enterprise?)

    We are a 99% desktop/laptop enterprise and the Metro interface does NOT work for us.  We also are not interested in running any Metro apps from what we've seen so far.  Most our users run 2-5 apps at the same time, with multiple windows open at the same time and Metro just doesn't seem to be designed with multitasking in mind.  (Not to mention how much money does Microsoft think everyone has to re-purchase existing apps as Metro apps or re-write the thousands of in house apps that might exist?)  For me personally, I see zero incentive to upgrade my home pc from Windows 7 to Windows 8.

    At this early stage, with what we're seeing, Windows 8 is a non-starter for us when I've spoken to some of my managers.  We realize someday in the future Microsoft won't give you an option by terminating support for Windows 7, but until then, Windows 7 is significantly better for us with a lot less turmoil and headaches to deal with.  Heck, we haven't even completely switched from XP to Win7 and now Win8 comes along and changes everything?  Sorry, but re-training, user frustration, etc. all cost money and we're not seeing the benefit to go down that road right now, when we haven't even finished traveling the Windows 7 road.

    I have hopes for the upcoming Consumer Preview release of Windows 8 will make it more appealing, but my hopes aren't too high.  If Microsoft would have just listened to the feedback and put a damn Start Menu in the Desktop Interface and give us the option of what interface to boot into, all our concerns would go away.  (Who exactly would it hurt to add these two "options" into Windows 8?)  But since that doesn't appear as if it will happen, our opinion isn't likely to change.

    Tuesday, February 21, 2012 5:17 PM
  • And I still haven't heard definitively if you can run "all" your current Windows apps on an ARM processor device with Windows 8?  If not, then what's the point of ARM tablets & Windows 8 if you completely loose application compatibility within your enterprise?)

    Windows on ARM (WOA) will only be able to run Microsoft Office (Word, PowerPoint, Excel and OneNote) in desktop mode:

    "Third party Win32/Explorer style applications--that is, all applications sold and made today, will not work on WOA systems. They cannot be ported to WOA, and cannot be made available in any way to WOA users. In WOA, Microsoft is only providing the basic desktop features from Windows 8 (file management, task manager and so on), the desktop version of Internet Explorer 10, and special versions of key Office 15 applications (see below).

    "Furthermore, WOA systems will not support running x86-based applications in emulation or virtualization (and Hyper-V is not part of the WOA versions of Windows 8). Get the message? Only a tiny subset of desktop applications will work on WOA, and all of those will ship with WOA systems, from Microsoft only."

    http://www.winsupersite.com/article/windows8/woa-windows-8-arm-revealed-142242

    Tuesday, February 21, 2012 5:27 PM
  • I-DotNET, my Aunt still has to remind herself to use the I-Pad.  I asked her what that meant. 

    She said she loves browsing and reading email on the pad, but if she wants to comment on a news article or reply to an email, she fires up the laptop or desktop.

    Why?  Well of course a phone-like onscreen "keyboard" is nothing like the real thing, especially so for her as a bona-fide typewriter speed demon.

    So, what's her option otherwise?  Dock the pad and use a keyboard?  Huh.  Sort of a shame you have to "build it out" to be truly functional on a day to day basis.

    Great for those who consume, not so great for even minimalist productivity.  And therefore, this touch-centric "new dynamic", "new future" has no place on a desktop, and limited functionality in genuine need of improvement on a laptop.

    The danger is of course ruining the "traditional computing" experience in order to cater to the touch-centric, especially as it applies to making everything bigger in that there be enough room for the finger to play the part of a mouse pointer tip.

    DAS

    Tuesday, February 21, 2012 5:31 PM
  • If Microsoft would have just listened to the feedback and put a damn Start Menu in the Desktop Interface and give us the option of what interface to boot into, all our concerns would go away.  (Who exactly would it hurt to add these two "options" into Windows 8?)  But since that doesn't appear as if it will happen, our opinion isn't likely to change.

    My impression is that Microsoft intends on dropping the desktop completely from Windows.  Removing the Start Menu in Windows 8 is just the first step. 
    Tuesday, February 21, 2012 5:32 PM
  • >In essence, you repeated what I said, in order to be effective while on
    > the road now you have to pack the dock and keyboard as well,
    >leaving you stuck with the small display which is part and parcel
    > of the portable experience.
     
    Not quite, I can do anything I need without being docked to, it's just
    a little slower than docked is all.  The small display isn't much of a
    difference from an ultralight laptop, and perfectly workable.  When you
    need portable, you need portable...
     
    >Meanwhile, I can close the top on my laptop with it 16.4
     
    I'd **NEVER*** carry such a beast around, it's too heavy.  It would be
    relegated to just a desktop for me.
     
    >Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to imply what you have
    >doesn't work for you,
     
    Actually that's what you are doing saying your way of working is the
    only way to go and there is no room for a tablet other than as a
    consumption device.  The *best* you can say is it doesn't fit the way
    you work, nothing else.
     
    >but to replace your laptop you have to carry all manner of
    >things to replace the functionality of a laptop and its power supply.
     
    Huh?  I don't need to carry anything more than you and mine weighs a
    lot less.  My dock and power supply isn't much bigger than your power
    brick, nor does it weigh more.  My keyboard weighs just a few ounces
    and connects via bluetooth, but I don't have to carry the dock or the
    keyboard with me, it can go in the checkin luggage because it isn't
    necessary for usage.  Same for a mouse.  I don't need to carry my
    external DVD writer at all, just a couple flash drives or SD cards is
    all I need for work or entertainment.
     
    >My fear is there will become a plethora of companies ...
     
    The market will decide what it wants, and the companies will fill that
    role when it becomes clear -- for now, they're trying new things to see
    how they're liked, and given the number of iPads sold, I think they're
    liked pretty well!
     

    Bob Comer - Microsoft MVP Virtual Machine
    Tuesday, February 21, 2012 5:33 PM
  • Well of course a phone-like onscreen "keyboard" is nothing like the real thing, especially so for her as a bona-fide typewriter speed demon.

    So, what's her option otherwise?  Dock the pad and use a keyboard?  Huh.  Sort of a shame you have to "build it out" to be truly functional on a day to day basis.

    Have you seen Lenovo's IdeaPad Yoga convertible tablet?

    http://www.engadget.com/2012/01/09/lenovos-ideapad-yoga-convertible-tablet-runs-windows-8-is-set/

    At 3.3 lbs, it's a bit heavy for a tablet, but this is just a first generation convertable.  I expect future generations to be lighter and thinner.  In fact, laptops are starting to get so thin and light, they may replace tablets.

    Tuesday, February 21, 2012 5:42 PM
  • Well, you see Bob, I have actual things to accomplish on my laptop and that includes multiple apps open (and running) at the same time, plenty of power to run compiles, plenty of power to run virtual machines, in fact its my desktop and test bed on the road.  It HAS TO BE.  I can't go out to solve a problem with a toy in tow and let the customer know I'll have to get back to my hometown before I can get anything done.

    I especially like your knee-jerk justification of "just a little slower".  My original post on this thread, h3ll, even this one would be a giant PITA with an on screen keyboard.  Even my Aunt recognizes its worth firing up her laptop to respond to an email even if it nothing more than a couple of sentences.

    Half of the tablet crowd wants a bigger phone interface and little more, yet they'll still be typing CUL8TR all because they came from texting (silly me, I thought our ability to communicate would mean we'd be churning out literary geniuses, instead LOL, CUL8TR, and all the rest pass for "communication" these days.  They wanted more room to see more and be able to fit that on screen keyboard so they don't have to use a stylus to activate keys that are dwarfed by a dry green split pea.

    Too heavy?  I guess for some, but when I'm on the road with a full-blown development system, home entertainment center, and full-hd display, I think I can afford the weight knowing I need the machine, the power brick, and a enet patch cable to do everything I could possibly need to.  And after my work is done, I can relax, put a Blu-ray disc in the optical drive, and watch a movie while my devolpment system is churning away in the background.

    Lastly, judging the "market" by the number of I-Pads sold IS the danger.  You will have FAR more people wanting a pad/tablet for consumption than those needing to get actual work done.  The danger is correlating tablet sales to PC/Laptop sales as an excuse for a valid metric.  Is that OK?  Maybe in the end that would be great for MS, I'm pretty well sure they're in it to make as much money as possible, and if selling OS's for tablets is easier and more profitable then we can be pretty sure the direction they'll be taking. But traditional computing will never go away just because lots of toys are being sold, you can bank on that.  Do you really expect the corporate America model to be  tablets, docks, external drives, external optical drives, keyboards and (God forbid, I know) mice? 

    What about those of us who develop custom hardware and software for industrial controls?  Just provide a dock-esque connector and a tablet plugs into the enclosure that shields the equipment from molten balls of steel and sparks?  Traditional computing cannot die just because people needed a bigger phone app.

    If MS wants out of traditional computing, Windows 8 so far seems to be the correct path for them.  Before long all servers, industrial controls, and scientific data logging will be done under Linux.  If thats what MS wants, I surely don't have the right to even protest, they don't want my business anymore anyway so what possible good could come from my objections?

    DAS


    • Edited by Win7Tester Tuesday, February 21, 2012 7:08 PM
    Tuesday, February 21, 2012 6:18 PM
  • See, now were getting somewhere.

    What did they add?  A keyboard.  Anything else?  Wow, looks like they added a touchpad.

    So what you have is a laptop, and instead of the screen swiveling around like the 200 series, it auto-orients the display as it folds over backwards for what is probably a much nicer and more durable method that twisting all those wires (our leadership has had problems with too much swivelling rendering the display useless until repair).  But once they're done at their dog and pony shows, they go back and get their real work done on their desktops!

    Your post could not have been more appropriate for this conversation.  The tablet was too limited, so Lenovo took what many "futurists" will describe as a "step backward" by making a tablet into a laptop.  Couldn't possibly have made my point better, thanks.

    Then you go on to say laptops are getting light and thin enough that they stand a good chance of replacing tablets.  EXACTLY.  Tablets are tablets, and if you want to get anything of any consequence done, you need a laptop at a minimum, and if your workload is high, a desktop.

    See the dividing line now?  When your tablet needs to get real work done, you either start hanging stuff off of it to make it mimick an actual productive machine, or you buy an actual productive machine.  The danger is ruining the interface for actual productive machines by saddling them with the requirements of the toy interface.

    Thanks for working through that with me, we make a great team for pointing out the hazards of assuming a toy could actually replace the functionality of "ancient technology".

    Maybe someday people will get paid for surfing and watching youtubes in a social setting, until then, laptops and desktops will be the tools of those actually responsible for getting things done.

    DAS


    • Edited by Win7Tester Tuesday, February 21, 2012 6:56 PM typos
    Tuesday, February 21, 2012 6:50 PM
  • >Well, you see Bob, I have actual things to accomplish on my
    >laptop ...
     
    And I don't?  I'm also a PC developer, in addition to an AS/400
    developer and IT Manager.  Like I said, my slate can do everything I do
    on my laptops, and weigh a whole lot less.
     
    >I especially like your knee-jerk justification of "just a little slower".
     
    That's no kneejerk reaction, it's real world experience.  I can type on
    a virtual keyboard  just as I do on a real keyboard.  It's not quite as
    fast like I said, but it's workable if I don't have a keyboard with me.
     
    >Even my Aunt recognizes its worth firing up her laptop to respond
    >to an email even if it nothing more than a couple of sentences.
     
    What can I say, I, the company VP, and controller, all can do email on
    a virtual keyboard.
     
    >Half of the tablet crowd wants a bigger phone interface and little
    >more, yet they'll still be typing CUL8TR all because they came
    >from texting
     
    Yep, there are bunches of those, but that's not where I'm coming from,
    I need a real PC.  Even when I had just my iPad as the only tablet, I'd
    remote into my desktop PC to do real work.  Anyway, those bunches are a
    valid market to sell to too...
     
    >Too heavy?  I guess for some, but when I'm on the road with a
    >full-blown development system, home entertainment center, ...
     
    I have all that and a lot less weight..
     
    >I think I can afford the weight knowing I need the machine,
    >the power brick, and a enet patch cable to do everything I
    >could possibly need to.
     
    That's fine for you, but for me it's way different, I don't want to lug
    that kind of weight through airports or to meetings.  I'm not saying
    for you to change at all, I'm just saying that your way isn't the only
    way and there's room in the market for more than one approach.
     
    >The danger is correlating tablet sales to PC/Laptop sales as an
    >excuse for a invalid metric, and saddling pc/laptops with the
    >inherent limitations of a toy will kill what has been MS's
    >core business.
     
    Slates are *not* toys, they're just as much computing devices as any
    other, and if Microsoft bets wrong this time, it wont kill them,
    they've bet wrong before, and they will again, nobody knows exactly
    what the market is going to buy. I happen to think they're going to
    sell a boat load of tablets, and laptops, and even desktops still get
    bought these days...
     
    >Do you really expect the corporate America model to be  tablets,
    >docks, external drives, external optical drives, keyboards and
    >(God forbid, I know) mice? 
     
    Tablets are already here in corporate America, though we don't use the
    docks, external drives, mice, and physical keyboards all that much --
    don't need them for most stuff.
     
    >What about those of us who develop custom hardware and software
    >for industrial controls? What about those of us who develop
    >custom hardware and software for industrial controls?
     
    I would expect you to keep on doing what you do. And I'll keep buying
    those PLC's and control systems and such to keep the plant going.
     
    >Traditional computing cannot die just because people needed a
    >bigger phone app.
     
    Ahh, they crux of your argument I assume, well, traditional computing
    isn't going away, just the variety of devices is getting more diverse,
    as it should be, as some form factors do some things better than
    others.  The slate isn't the harbinger of the death of traditional
    computing...
     

    Bob Comer - Microsoft MVP Virtual Machine
    Tuesday, February 21, 2012 6:53 PM
  • laptops and desktops will be the tools of those actually responsible for getting things done.

    Your next desktop might be your phone:

    http://www.ubuntu.com/devices/android


    Tuesday, February 21, 2012 7:35 PM
  • Bob,

    Your last paragraph is the focus:

    MS is marrying a tablet OS to a traditional OS and telling us traditional users to deal with it.  All I want is to not be hamstrung by the requirements of the tablet interface.  I'd prefer to not even know Metro exists unless I specifically want it.  And full-bore simultaneous multitasking "wouldn't be nice", it is of paramount importance.  I understand I won't be able to use a "ancient" start menu, although getting rid of it seems to be a heavy-handed blowback for the feedback MS received from the DP.  Almost feels like a "in your FACE" response for those of us who "just don't get it". 

    We're getting pretty close to the CP, I'll run it as I do now in a VM and be able to tell in minutes if they forced me to walk the plank or not.

    Oh, and while I do use some PLCs, most of my stuff is custom designs with A/D, D/A conversions, strain guages, spool valve controls, linear motion actuators and all the rest.  I wouldn't have a job if it was just writing ladder logic for off the shelf PLCs, plus I'd be bored to death...

    DAS

    Tuesday, February 21, 2012 7:47 PM
  • >MS is marrying a tablet OS to a traditional OS and telling us
    >traditional users to deal with it.
     
    That's a whole 'nother argument than what I was talking about, I wasn't
    talking about Windows 8, just slate in general.  I personally dual boot
    my slate in Windows 7 and windows 8, plus run some VM's on it in either
    OS, but I hadn't mentioned what I thought about the new OS...
     
    >All I want is to not be hamstrung by the requirements of the
    >tablet interface.
     
    And that's fair, and maybe the market will decide that, and maybe they
    wont.  Personally, the UI in Win8 isn't my favorite, there would have
    to be many changes on the tablet side of things for me to "like" it,
    but on the other hand, I think it's serviceable, on both the slate and
    my laptops and desktops.  Gaudy maybe is a good description, but I'm
    not going to be wiping it off of any PC's I get before rolling them out
    to users, nor am I going to buy PC's just to get Win8 either!  I expect
    Windows 7 will be my favorite OS for quite some time, but I'll be
    running every version of Win8 in the meantime until I decide to move to
    it.
     
    >Almost feels like a "in your FACE" response for those of us who
    >"just don't get it". 
     
    That's nothing new for Microsoft unfortunately, yet they keep going...
     
    >We're getting pretty close to the CP, I'll run it as I do now in a
    >VM and be able to tell in minutes if they forced me to walk the
    > plank or not.
     
    Ahh, give it a bit more chance than that.   Who knows, you may get used
    to it in time. <g>
     
    Seriously, I'd really suggest installing it on hardware at least once,
    so you can get past any VM particulars that make something look slower
    than it really is.  I do all my OS testing on both VM's and real
    hardware...
     
    >Oh, and while I do use some PLCs ...
     
    Interesting, almost everything in our plant is controlled by PLC's,
    even though we have a lot of different kinds of sensors. Our
    electricians are the one's that program the PLC's as well as fixing the
    hardware.  We're a wool combing mill.
     

    Bob Comer - Microsoft MVP Virtual Machine
    Tuesday, February 21, 2012 8:12 PM