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When will IOT Core support real x86 hardware such as Intel Compute Stick? RRS feed

  • Question

  • The forum title is click bait but the question remains.  I could spend $150 on a board and wires in a box or buy a complete, ready-to -ship Compute Stick that is perfect for IOT applications.  When, if ever, does the IOT dev team see adding support for x86?

    Updated: For individuals looking for Windows IOT support on Compute Sticks -- good news.  Microsoft updated their licensing model to price Windows IOT Enterprise based on processor type (i.e. Atom vs i5) instead of display size.  This difference results in a substantial price decrease for compute sticks and returns viability to Windows IOT on Compute Sticks

    • Edited by S Tonstad Wednesday, August 3, 2016 3:38 PM
    Friday, January 22, 2016 9:00 PM

Answers

  • Couldn't it be possible to build a custom IoT Core Image with Windows ICD? You'd just need a custom BSP config file and the appropriate drivers from Intel. Might be worth sending a mail to Intel, and report to us how it goes. :) Could be interesting.
    Tuesday, January 26, 2016 6:27 PM
  • For individuals looking for Windows IOT support on Compute Sticks -- good news.  Microsoft updated their licensing model to price Windows IOT Enterprise based on processor type (i.e. Atom vs i5) instead of display size.  This difference results in a substantial price decrease for compute sticks and returns viability to Windows IOT on Compute Sticks

    • Marked as answer by S Tonstad Wednesday, August 3, 2016 3:39 PM
    Wednesday, August 3, 2016 3:37 PM

All replies

  • Hi S Tonstad,

    Why would you want to run Windows IoT Core when it comes with a full version of Windows included?

    See http://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/compute-stick/compute-stick-product-brief.html

    What does IoT Core get you on this platform that full Windows does not?

    Sincerely,

    IoTGirl


    Saturday, January 23, 2016 6:02 AM
    Moderator
  • Hi IoTGirl!  I appreciate your engagement on this topic!  Seriously, this is a big deal for me and I appreciate your consideration.  The Intel Compute Stick comes with Windows 10 Home.  This version does not allow Kiosk mode and for this reason it is nearly impossible to provide an embedded "IOT" solution without Windows features getting in the way.  (i.e. OneDrive pop-ups, Notification Center, Start Menu Overlays).  I could buy Windows 10 LTSB Enterprise for Kiosk mode -- but that is 2X the cost of the entire compute stick itself! 

    People that are serious about shipping commercial IOT applications love the compute stick because for $99 you get WiFi, solid state storage, Bluetooth, HDMI and a case ready assembled. 

    I truly like IoT Core -- it is the only version of Windows that enables only one UWP application to run at a time.  That is awesome and it is perfect for IOT!

    So now without IoT Core on Compute Stick my only option is license Windows LTSB (which is a deal killer) or lock down the Windows Home license through insane registry hacks.  I am having to do the latter step.  That process adds about two hours to every compute stick I ship for my popular IOT software ("Signcast").  I am hoping to grow the business and the unavailability of an OS solution for x86 IOT ("Kiosk Mode") is a genuine barrier for me.  I hope this explanation helps!

    Shaun


    Tuesday, January 26, 2016 4:06 PM
  • I have the same question for the same reason.
    Tuesday, January 26, 2016 5:20 PM
  • Couldn't it be possible to build a custom IoT Core Image with Windows ICD? You'd just need a custom BSP config file and the appropriate drivers from Intel. Might be worth sending a mail to Intel, and report to us how it goes. :) Could be interesting.
    Tuesday, January 26, 2016 6:27 PM
  • Hi Goran,

    As a student you likely have access to MSDN. Please take a look at the blog discussed in this thread for more detail on building a custom image.

    https://social.msdn.microsoft.com/Forums/en-US/67fe27a5-f533-4d71-ab98-b1c9e1c4ba2d/build-custom-windows-10-iot-image?forum=WindowsIoT

    Sincerely,

    IoTGirl


    Tuesday, January 26, 2016 6:38 PM
    Moderator
  • Hi Shaun (& Brien),

    It sounds like IoT Enterprise is actually the correct version for your scenario. You say you don't want to use it due to the cost rather than it not being the correct OS.  I would reach out to Microsoft Marketing and Sales for the reasoning behind the costs.

    As to the question regarding the Compute Stick in particular, Goran hit the nail on the head.  The Compute Stick is an Intel Product and they decide what version of the OS best meets their customer needs and the target user of their platform.  You would need to justify the costs to Intel to support another version of the OS on that platform to make it cost effective for them to offer it.

    For IoT Core Edition, Intel chose to support MBM as it has a more sensor focus for IoT scenarios and better extensibility for bus architectures like I2C therefore a better fit than the compute stick.

    Sincerely,

    IoTGirl

    PS: For insight into the purpose of each IoT Edition please see the Windows 10 IoT Editions section at https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/WindowsForBusiness/windows-iot. 


    Tuesday, January 26, 2016 6:48 PM
    Moderator
  • Thank you for your response!  Truly awesome to understand this better.  Honestly, I didn't expect a course change from Intel or Microsoft on this topic. ... so how realistic is Goran's approach of building a custom IOT image for an x86 system like a compute stick?  I suspect that if we build it they will come (deployments of IOT Core on Compute Sticks)....

    Tuesday, January 26, 2016 11:12 PM
  • Hi Shaun,

    For Intel, the port would probably be pretty easy as they already have the Windows 10 drivers from the Windows 10 Home version. Barring any special driver dependency, you, not being from Intel, could start from the MBM BSP and see how far you get but you could be stopped short by a GPU, Video, Networking driver incompatibility and then you are unlikely to get any further without Intel's help.

    Sincerely,

    IoTGirl

    Tuesday, January 26, 2016 11:39 PM
    Moderator
  • Note: Just found this on Intel's site so they seem to be pretty receptive to allowing access to an Atom BSP! https://downloadcenter.intel.com/download/25618/Intel-Embedded-Drivers-for-Microsoft-Windows-10-IoT-Core-32-bit-
    Wednesday, January 27, 2016 5:39 AM
    Moderator
  • Thanks IoTGirl! I opened up the package and I am seeing GPIO, UART, I2C, and SPI drivers which look like the MBM drivers.    I didn't see a BSP configuration file or drivers specific to the Atom chip here, but I am a total newbie at this.  I'll keep reading and learning.  Thank you for assisting me!
    • Edited by S Tonstad Wednesday, January 27, 2016 3:59 PM
    Wednesday, January 27, 2016 3:58 PM
  • Why not just load Windows on there, and enable embedded mode?

    http://ms-iot.github.io/content/en-US/win10/EmbeddedMode.htm

    Wednesday, January 27, 2016 11:56 PM
  • Hi Shaun & Morten,

    I don't know if embedded mode works on Home edition but it could be worth trying.

    Sincerely,

    IoTGirl

    Thursday, January 28, 2016 5:34 PM
    Moderator
  • Hi Morton!  That would be an ideal solution but the Home SKU definitely does not support assigned access or Kiosk mode.  I used SysInternals to identity registry and file system changes on the Professional SKU when Kiosk mode is enabled.  The volume of file system and registry changes is too much to recreate, I think.
    Friday, January 29, 2016 8:37 PM
  • @IotGirl

    You wrote, "Hi Shaun (& Brien) ... You say you don't want to use it due to the cost rather than it not being the correct OS" 

    I didn't see anyone mentioning licensing costs, that's most def not a concern of mine.  It's more about having control over the user experience. 

    ...But thanks for the response anyways.  I like where this IoT Core thing is headed.  For me the Dragonboard 410C seems like the best option.  I tried the Raspberry PI, it wasn't anywhere near as fast.  And Dragon is ~2 watts running under load (with a camera attached).  That's great!



    • Edited by Untitled86 Monday, February 1, 2016 10:42 PM /
    Monday, February 1, 2016 10:41 PM
  • Hi Brien,

    In the case of the DragonBoard, you can see a related Qualcomm communication here: https://www.qualcomm.com/news/releases/2015/03/18

    It says it will run both IoT Mobile and Core images. Not sure at the licensing costs but you do have the choice of a Mobile image with a shell on that platform as well.

    Sincerely,

    IoTGirl

    Tuesday, February 2, 2016 7:25 AM
    Moderator
  • I am interested if Windows Iot can be installed on any pc - or is it limited to just the specified hardware raspberry pi... etc?

    An ideal platform would be a intel stick pc? There are many of these x86 pc coming on the market that are very cheep at around $100 a unit, they have cherry trail pc, 4gig ram, and 32-64gig hard drive and are perfect for Iot scenarios. They generally come pre-installed with windows 10 home that is not well suited to Iot scenario, could these be re-deployed using windows Iot core??

    We are looking to develop a platform that is based on one of these units, as they are very cheep - but very powerful - but are concerned about what operating system I should use as it's not clear the windows Iot core is designed for it??


    matvdl

    Sunday, March 13, 2016 2:58 PM
  • Hi,

    Windows 10 IoT Core is only compatible with a few dedicated systems.

    IoT is designed to run on mostly headless systems for recording sensor data or doing other low-level, "simple" stuff. I think your case would be perfectly work with Windows 10 Embedded, etc. 

    Kind regards, Toby


    Best Regards. When you see answers and helpful posts, please click Vote As Helpful, Propose As Answer, and/or Mark As Answer. This helps us build a healthy and positive community.

    Sunday, March 13, 2016 3:38 PM
  • Thanks for the reply, I don't think windows 10 embedded exists?

    matvdl

    Sunday, March 13, 2016 4:09 PM
  • Windows Embedded Overview

    but i assume this is more interesting...

    Windows 10 IoT Core Commercialization

    and

    WindowsForBusiness

    regarding Tobias "Windows 10 IoT Core is only compatible with a few dedicated systems."

    you could create your own Image for Windows IoT Core and Pro but you need the BSP for your board...

    Sunday, March 13, 2016 4:24 PM
    Moderator
  • I've just to honor your answer cyberh0me. :) I missed to provide the related links. Thanks for it.

    Best Regards. When you see answers and helpful posts, please click Vote As Helpful, Propose As Answer, and/or Mark As Answer. This helps us build a healthy and positive community.

    Sunday, March 13, 2016 4:32 PM
  • So results are that Windows 10 embedded does not exist -yet? And I think may never as Iot replaced it? The pc stick comes with fully licensed window 10 home, this cost about $20, total cost of stick of including this is about $120, so $ 100 without license. There is a Windows Iot enterprise that cost about $200, twice as much as the hardware that it would be installed on, but should work - http://www.msembedded.biz/en/embedded-software/windows-10-iot-enterprise/ Then there is core, free but basically does not work with the bsp, and then the expertise to creat it. There appears to be a gap here? Or have I missed something??

    matvdl

    Sunday, March 13, 2016 5:09 PM
  • It's so confusing.  I would think someone at Microsoft would be paying attention to the IoT and embedded space.  It seems like they're not.  The compute stick would be perfect for IoT Core.  It looks like Intel just went ahead and skipped Windows IoT Core for their Windows IoT example using their compute stick.  Pretty sad.  Intel claims 60% of the users are targeting IoT applications...

    http://www.crn.com/news/components-peripherals/video/300080024/intel-harnesses-compute-stick-for-digital-signage-iot-solutions.htm

    Are you sure about IoT Enterprise costing $200? That also seems ridiculous. Better not be true.

    Wednesday, May 4, 2016 10:22 PM
  • Just want to call out that it has been six months and there have been no improvements on this front.  

    To summarize: RP2 with IOT Core offers a competitive price point for scale-out IOT but it does not support needed features, namely GPU acceleration.  Conversely, feature rich compute stick solutions which are also price competitive support GPU acceleration ... but they do not run IOT Core and they require prohibitive software licensing which is two times the price of hardware.  My thesis here is that MS's IOT story is missing the mark.  Meanwhile, Google's Chromecast ecosystem continues to grow...  


    • Edited by S Tonstad Thursday, July 28, 2016 4:56 PM
    Thursday, July 28, 2016 2:42 PM
  • Hi S Tonstad,

    The focus of this thread was x86 hardware and compute stick.  You can get an Intel compute stick with Windows 10 Home edition for $80 according to my search. https://www.bing.com/search?q=intel+compute+stick&src=IE-SearchBox&FORM=IENTSR&toHttps=1&redig=E97D80C78BC94752AD2D9507EB576E52.  This is a far richer feature set version of Windows 10 and does offer streaming so a far better comparison to chromecast that IoTCore targets.

    To discuss your specific need and license requirements you would be best to reach out to a licensed reseller available through the WindowsforBusiness link above.

    Sincerely,

    IoTGirl

    Thursday, July 28, 2016 4:37 PM
    Moderator
  • Hi IoTGirl!  Thank you for your response and consideration!

    I'm using Intel Compute Sticks to ship an IOT product in volume to hundreds of clients.   It's a UWP app -- but we have to jump through hundreds of hoops and configuration challenges in Windows 10 to get the UWP app to be the only one running.  Registry changes, disabling bundled software, etc.  The ideal solution is Windows IOT Core (or Windows IOT Enterprise with a price point that isn't 2X the price of the hardware itself).  I reached out to two license resellers for pricing of Windows IOT Enterprise -- I can't justify spending $200 in software licensing per unit for an IOT device.  I stand by my thesis that MS doesn't understand how uncompetitive their current hardware/software offering really is compared to the competition.


    • Edited by S Tonstad Thursday, July 28, 2016 5:01 PM
    Thursday, July 28, 2016 5:01 PM
  • Hi S Tonstad,

    The hardware choice was yours and you can certainly build a relationship with your hardware vendor to meet your need.  Have you reviewed the Intel BSP for MBM or reached out to Intel regarding using their Compute Stick as an IoTCore target?

    Take a look at the Certified for IoT devices list at https://azure.microsoft.com/en-us/documentation/articles/iot-hub-tested-configurations/ You will see a number of  IoTCore devices there that are not RPi or MBM.  These are manufacturers that have created IoTCore images for devices https://www.windowsforiotdevices.com/.

    Sincerely,

    IoTGirl




    Thursday, July 28, 2016 5:12 PM
    Moderator
  • Thank you IoTGirl for the list of certified IoT devices! Been looking for something like that. Do you have any idea what is holding these manufacturers to provide their own images for IoT Core?

    Friday, July 29, 2016 6:23 AM
  • Hi VonHatte,

    I believe you do get the IoTCore image when you purchase their device.  What do they say when you ask them?

    Sincerely,

    IoTGirl

    Friday, July 29, 2016 5:29 PM
    Moderator
  • For individuals looking for Windows IOT support on Compute Sticks -- good news.  Microsoft updated their licensing model to price Windows IOT Enterprise based on processor type (i.e. Atom vs i5) instead of display size.  This difference results in a substantial price decrease for compute sticks and returns viability to Windows IOT on Compute Sticks

    • Marked as answer by S Tonstad Wednesday, August 3, 2016 3:39 PM
    Wednesday, August 3, 2016 3:37 PM
  • That's great. ...So how do I actually install IoT Core on a Compute Stick?  Without an MSDN subscription?  Obviously if this proof of concept works well we would purchase whatever is needed. But I presume I can get started without spending $$$
    Monday, January 30, 2017 10:41 PM
  • Hi Brian,

    Note the updated comment from S Tonstad says "Windows IoT Enterprise" not "Windows IoT Core". Compute stick doesn't really seem to be a sensor gateway to server style of device that would really be an IoT Core target (GPIO?) but it could easily meet the need of a Windows IoT Enterprise target.

    Please take a look at the portfolio and their respective targets at https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/WindowsForBusiness/windows-iot

    Sincerely,

    IoTCore

    Monday, January 30, 2017 11:55 PM
    Moderator
  • Where is the link for this pricing? Where do I go to get the license? Why is this so hard? Is Microsoft on purpose pushing developers to Linux by making this so hard? Going through resellers seems to be to much of hassle, they only want to deal with large volume? Half the contacts don't even reply..
    Monday, September 4, 2017 12:47 AM
  • IoT Core is free.

    IoT Enterprise has a royalty that is scaled on the type of CPU you are using. Microsoft has used distributors for decades to help with selling Windows Embedded/IoT. There are resellers and there are embedded distributors. You can reach out to someone like Avnet - who can get you pricing. https://www.avnet.com/wps/portal/silica/products/manufacturers/microsoft-windows-embedded/  


    Sean Liming - Book Author: Starter Guide Windows 10 IoT Enterprise - www.annabooks.com / www.seanliming.com

    Monday, September 4, 2017 5:53 PM