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A Troll Hunt May be in Order RRS feed

  • General discussion

  • When I say a "Troll hunt may be in order" I am saying that the troll-like behavior, which has been present in the forum in small doses for a long time, has reached a head and can no longer go without consequence; at least in my estimation...

    Now, let us be clear; here is the definition of Troll being used in this context:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_(Internet)

    Most people have no reason to click the link... anyone who spends time in modern forums should have a general idea of what a Troll is.  But just in case there is any question, there is an official definition for use in this thread.

    Up until now I didn't think there was a need to formally address this, but the number of issues is climbing and it seems that the community as a whole cannot reach a resolution.  The next step would have to be an email to the forum admin, requesting that repeat offenders be suspended for a period of time with a warning about their behavior and a reminder of the AUP of the site.  But does it need to go that far?

    Now maybe, just maybe, with a clear definition available, people will say to themselves "could the text I am about to post be considered trolling?" and then press cancel instead of submit when appropriate.

    If you decide to participate in this discussion, do not point fingers, call names, or start issues with other forum members directly.  Speak only in generals and address contributors as a whole.

    The topic is "should there be a troll hunt?" or in other words, has the level of trolling become intolerable to the community as a whole?


    Reed Kimble - "When you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all"
    Saturday, January 7, 2012 1:43 AM

All replies

  • When I say a "Troll hunt may be in order" I am saying that the troll-like behavior, which has been present in the forum in small doses for a long time, has reached a head and can no longer go without consequence; at least in my estimation...

    If you decide to participate in this discussion, do not point fingers, call names, or start issues with other forum members directly.  Speak only in generals and address contributors as a whole.

    The topic is "should there be a troll hunt?" or in other words, has the level of trolling become intolerable to the community as a whole?


    Reed Kimble - "When you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all"

    Well, if you mean by contributors as people who is providing help only, then that is not fair.
    Once I posted an answer of 6 lines, the OP makes 3 mistakes (50% error) and he even could not get the variable that holding his datatable, ofcource my response to him was not pleasant. If he is not helping himself, then don't blame my response.

    As my opinion of "should there be a troll hunt?", I 100% agree on it, as I see it will put a kind of thinking twice before posting either question or answer.

    IMO, the best site that handle this is codeproject, where they have <I agree> <I disagree> or <UP arrow> <Down arrow> as in DaniWeb. It is as every one is saying his opinion in every posted answer. If the <Down arrow> or <I disagree> or <-> is getting to much hits, then it mean "Troll" somehow

     

    Saturday, January 7, 2012 8:33 AM
  • I would say there is much less of this activity then there was five years or so ago.  It seemed back then many posts were answered by people arguing vb6 versus vb.net relevance. 
     
    I don't read every post on this forum, but I know you are quite active, and would see more of the tone of the group than I would. 
     
    For clarification, do you see this increase in other groups as well, or only in the vb-general group?
     
    I do feel that if there are posts falling into this category, then there should be a way of handling it for the good of the comunity.

    --
    Mike
    Saturday, January 7, 2012 12:35 PM
  • Reed,

    i have recognized in the last few months an increase of some kind of flame war, which had resulted in hijacking the original thread.

    As a side effect this also has lead to calling names etc. I would agree with warning these forum members to stop doing this.


    Hannes

    If you have got questions about this, just ask.

    In a perfect world,
    users would never enter data in the wrong form,
    files they choose to open would always exist
    and code would never have bugs.

    C# to VB.NET: http://www.developerfusion.com/tools/convert/csharp-to-vb/
    Saturday, January 7, 2012 12:50 PM
  • Trolling is a deliberate act - inciting emotion in others for your own enjoyment. I think we're getting flaming rather than trolling - heated discussions that get out of control. I think rather than addressing trolling, you should just ask that regular contributors act like professionals.

    That said, my friend is a doctor in the UK, and is a member of several medical internet forums. I just asked him if these forums ever descend into flame wars and he said "All the time - it's appalling! Sometimes they even start personal attacks saying "I know who you are", and the moderators have to come in and lock the thread!". 

    Should there be a troll hunt? I expect it's very similar to policing levels in society. When the police have a crackdown on xyz it usually has an immediate effect but after a few months things go back to how they were before the crackdown.

    I'd welcome a bit more moderation on the forums, I don't like the threads that get out of control - they look bad and aren't helping anybody. New visitors to the site will be put off by them. I just ignore them.

    Do super-moderators have arguments about how to moderate moderators? I wonder...

    Saturday, January 7, 2012 3:49 PM
  • Reed,

    i have recognized in the last few months an increase of some kind of flame war, which had resulted in hijacking the original thread.

    As a side effect this also has lead to calling names etc. I would agree with warning these forum members to stop doing this.


    Hannes

    If you have got questions about this, just ask.

    In a perfect world,
    users would never enter data in the wrong form,
    files they choose to open would always exist
    and code would never have bugs.

    C# to VB.NET: http://www.developerfusion.com/tools/convert/csharp-to-vb/


    This is another good point... there have certainly been some flame wars, and though I've been absent for a little while, I don't see any active wars going on.  I was asked via email to address a hot one several weeks ago, and haven't heard of anything since.

    It seems to me that the quality of posts, and therefore the overall value of the forum, has declined in recent years.  I guess the recent trolling complaints I've seen, as well as occurrences of the act itself, are what made me focus on trolls with this discussion, but you're right in that it is really overall forum etiquette that needs to be addressed.


    Reed Kimble - "When you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all"
    Saturday, January 7, 2012 5:17 PM
  • Hi Reed and other Forum members

    what a way to start off the new year with a bang! This should be a lively discussion, to say the least. But I'm glad someone has addressed the issue.

    The last couple of months I have been really busy with a huge project at work and have not been on the Forums much, so I can't comment on the immediate past. However based on the definition in the link provided:

    a troll is someone who posts inflammatory,<sup id="cite_ref-1" class="reference">[2]</sup> extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, chat room, or blog, with the primary intent of provoking readers into an emotional response<sup id="cite_ref-PCMAG_def_2-0" class="reference">[3]</sup> or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion

    I must say a few months ago it got to the point where I was losing interest in participating because of the behavior of some Forum members.

    There were too many threads I read where members would go off on a completely irrelevant track and the thread would degrade from there, with extremely inconsiderate responses, and absolutely no intention of helping the OP solve the problem. It would turn into a personal battle.

    The poor OP, who in many cases was posting for one of the first times here, must have been bewildered, to say the least. And likely began searching for another place to get answers to problems.

    I think that is an unfortunate reflection on us as a whole and a tragedy for those looking for help.

    We are here to help people solve coding issues and anything that takes away from that purpose should be addressed appropriately. In that sense I agree we need to have some type of mechanism in place to attempt to ensure all responses posted in a thread address the specific issue stated by the OP.

    We all have different opinions and levels of knowledge, and usually will approach a solution from a different angle. That is what makes these Forums such a wonderful place and such a helpful tool. But that does not mean we need or have the right to be disrespectful.

    Saturday, January 7, 2012 5:20 PM
  • Hey Jo0ls,

    As I said to Hannes, I agree that there has also been a flaming problem, but the trolling is occuring as well; in the reference defintion provided, the emotional response comes from the reader(s) not the troll.  This defintion does not attempt to assume what motivates the troll to post inflammatory content, it only states that the posts themselves are meant to offend another reader or throw the thread off topic.

    There are instances of posts where the primary content has nothing to do with the thread topic, and one or more comments are agressive and highly opinionated with no other purpose than to offend another reader.

    I have also seen instances where it was responses to the initial troll post that sparked a following flame war.

    So let's revise the topic here a bit then and say more generally:

    Has the overall quality of the forums suffered due to the lack of regulation on etiquette?


    Reed Kimble - "When you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all"
    Saturday, January 7, 2012 5:32 PM
  • Has the overall quality of the forums suffered due to the lack of regulation on etiquette?

    This is a true statement for life in general, at least where I live.  Parents need to control their kids, and moderators need to regulate forums.

    --
    Mike
    Saturday, January 7, 2012 5:42 PM
  • I would say there is much less of this activity then there was five years or so ago.  It seemed back then many posts were answered by people arguing vb6 versus vb.net relevance. 
     
    I don't read every post on this forum, but I know you are quite active, and would see more of the tone of the group than I would. 
     
    For clarification, do you see this increase in other groups as well, or only in the vb-general group?
     
    I do feel that if there are posts falling into this category, then there should be a way of handling it for the good of the comunity.

    --
    Mike


    I'd agree that several years ago when VB2008 really started to bring in new people, the forums began to expand into a generally public community - beyond the niche community it began as.  And when this happened, the public forum problems began to appear.  In the early days, say, prior to 2007 and going back before MSDN absorbed windowsforms.com, this was never a problem.  That's why it's sad that a discussion like this is even necessary.

    My understanding is that this kind of behavior is on the rise everywhere.  Jo0ls' story would seem to indicate this as well.

    I think it's a worthy goal to try to keep places like this a resource for information, and not let them become a pit of opinion and illogical nonsense (have you ever tried to search for information on a major news network forum? lol).


    Reed Kimble - "When you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all"
    Saturday, January 7, 2012 5:47 PM
  • Has the overall quality of the forums suffered due to the lack of regulation on etiquette?

    This is a true statement for life in general, at least where I live.  Parents need to control their kids, and moderators need to regulate forums.

    --
    Mike


    Aye, but that's an issue that cannot be addressed on any forum... lol I wish it could though! Wouldn't it be great to flag a government as "abussive" and have it banned by some almighty admin?! ;)

    The thing I really wanted to comment on here was "moderators need to regulate forums"; in these forums, moderator power is primarly constrained to house-keeping duties (that is, moving threads, marking answers, etc.).  We can see abuse flags, and can clear them if there is no actual violation (sometime people just get mad and click the abuse flag lol).  But we have no way to contact a poster directly or issue any kind of warnings.  All we can do is post a thread in the moderator forums or contact the specific forum admin.

    Unfortunely, the moderator forum has digressed into an unending ban user request list.  So while I could request punitive action against the worst offenders, there would not likely be any discussion or measures taken to prevent further offense.

    I'm open to suggestions which we might put forward to the site features team about how to handle these kinds of issues.


    Reed Kimble - "When you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all"
    Saturday, January 7, 2012 5:57 PM
  • That's exactly how I see it jwavila.

    Getting three different, but valid, solutions to one question has always been one of the great perks of these forums.  And we all are capable of making mistakes so having several knowledgable people look over the same proposed solution is supposed to lead to the best overall answer... now it tends to just lead to a fight about why one answer is "dumb", or why the question shouldn't be asked in the first place.

    And given that a lot of the really good contributors have mostly stopped posting here, you can bet that you are not the only one who just got tired of all the drama.  So not only is this making it hard on new members, it is driving away some of the best old ones.


    Reed Kimble - "When you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all"
    Saturday, January 7, 2012 6:02 PM
  • Has the overall quality of the forums suffered due to the lack of regulation on etiquette?
    Reed Kimble - "When you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all"


    That is an excellent summation of what I see as the most disheartening trend occuring on these MSDN Forums.

    I will say this - there have been a couple of times where what I posted could have been perceived as a slam against another poster. And actually the two specific ones I remember happen to have involved two of the members on this thread - Cor and Reed. It was not intended as it came out - they were done late at night after a hard day at work. But that is no excuse to write things in an unfriendly manner. Fortunately after re-reading my post later I realized how it sounded and took steps to make amends.

    Everyone here is human and can (and will) make mistakes. But I see these instances as different than the purposeful malignant behavior exhibited by some. Unfortunately, as Mike said, it is present in everyday life.

    Since it doesn't sound like much can or will be done on an "official" level, we may not get far with that course. And since this is a members Forum, it is likely up to us to make the Forums what they are supposed to be. I think if a thread started going off-topic with the type of comments all of us have seen, maybe if a number of members who read it post something about that type of dialogue is inappropriate on this Forum and to please stay focused on the question...

    Then again, I have seen that done and those involved don't seem to get it.

    Saturday, January 7, 2012 8:22 PM
  • I think rather than addressing trolling, you should just ask that regular contributors act like professionals.

    I think it is reasonable to ask for this, to point out when it's not happening, and enforce it where appropriate.  It is the responsibility of the regulars to set the tone.  Newcomers and casuals will often step outside the 'rules', but invariably adjust quickly and the impact is minor and short term.

    But regulars who post a lot have no excuse for not conforming to a professional standard.  There will always be cases of threads wandering off topic, and discussions getting vigorous - that's part of the interactive process.  But there is no room for flaming and name calling.

    The worst possible situation is that it becomes a closed group of self-appointed 'experts' that is unwelcoming for those seeking assistance.  If that happens, there is no purpose in being here.

    Saturday, January 7, 2012 8:57 PM
  • I think rather than addressing trolling, you should just ask that regular contributors act like professionals.

    I think it is reasonable to ask for this, to point out when it's not happening, and enforce it where appropriate.  It is the responsibility of the regulars to set the tone.  Newcomers and casuals will often step outside the 'rules', but invariably adjust quickly and the impact is minor and short term.

    But regulars who post a lot have no excuse for not conforming to a professional standard.  There will always be cases of threads wandering off topic, and discussions getting vigorous - that's part of the interactive process.  But there is no room for flaming and name calling.

    The worst possible situation is that it becomes a closed group of self-appointed 'experts' that is unwelcoming for those seeking assistance.  If that happens, there is no purpose in being here.

    -Acamar


    I agree.  I see it as my responsibility here to set the tone that newcomers will eventually adopt.  If I saw falming happen in a thread I was part of then I see it as my responsibility to call it out for what it is (with the intention to get it to stop) but not become personally involved with it.  If it continues then maybe it could be flagged...   which begs the question I guess comes round to the orginal question by Reed:  Should flaming be marked as abusive (if persisted after warnings) so that the moderators can deal with it?  @Reed, Is this kind of what you were asking about?
    Monday, January 9, 2012 4:46 PM
  • I will say this - there have been a couple of times where what I posted could have been perceived as a slam against another poster. And actually the two specific ones I remember happen to have involved two of the members on this thread - Cor and Reed. It was not intended as it came out - they were done late at night after a hard day at work. But that is no excuse to write things in an unfriendly manner. Fortunately after re-reading my post later I realized how it sounded and took steps to make amends.

    -jwavila


    Yeah, I've done the same a few times and when I was called on it was greatly embarrased by my actions and made ammends to apologize where necessary or to gracefully back out of the converation.  And there's where the critical point of behavior occurs.  If I was not trying to uphold a level of professionalism that I think this forum warrants then I could have easily just sniped back thus starting the flame war.  I feel that the regulars need to be paragons for the behavior we would like to see around here.  That is really all we can do and still be responsible.
    Monday, January 9, 2012 4:51 PM
  • ...

    It seems to me that the quality of posts, and therefore the overall value of the forum, has declined in recent years.  I guess the recent trolling complaints I've seen, as well as occurrences of the act itself, are what made me focus on trolls with this discussion, but you're right in that it is really overall forum etiquette that needs to be addressed.


    Reed Kimble - "When you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all"

    Forums will always devolve to the lowest common denominator, unfortunately.

    Further, to raise the quality of answer upwards, one has to correct incorrect answers. But no-one likes being corrected. Flame war ensues. The answer (right or wrong or whatever) is lost.

    'Being nice' doesn't correct bad 'responses', whether it's a wrong answer, flame war or personal attack.

    I've been here, before, though, on this forum some years ago. I don't know what has prompted this thread, but it's likely to be trollish posts by someone with a 'record' as this forum measures such things. Those [trolls] with no 'record' can be quite painlessly disposed of.

    From my personal opinion, this forum seems to value mediocre to poor answers. I do think there are far better places to get a much more superior answer or help. While I can agree that there can be multiple solutions to a problem, people in general are too hooked on the 'there are no wrong answers' feeling, when quite clearly there are good ways of doing things and bad (and atrocious) ways of doing things. Ignoring the latter, and letting it stand really drives down any kind of benefit such a forum has.

    However, I don't think it's indicative of this specific forum, but an external endemic issue, coupled with a systemic failure of the global education systems. There are too many people 'thinking outside the box' who really have no idea where the box is: they don't even know there 'is' a box.
    Stephen J Whiteley
    Monday, January 9, 2012 10:04 PM
  • Forums will always devolve to the lowest common denominator, unfortunately.

    The forums are set up so that those who are posting the queries have the primary input to the assessment of the responses they get.  OP's opinion of the value of the responses is worth three or four other opinions.  The system encourages responders to provide answers that solve the problem.  If OP is working at the level of the lowest common denominator, the answer that is perceived as most useful is likely going to be at that same level.

    In other words, the forums are set up to solve problems rather than to be a centre of excellence or a resource for examples of best practice. There are other places where standards are applied and quality is appreciated and valued.  While it is sometimes disturbing to see the type of code that gets posted, or the non-standard ways in which people are advised to do things, if it solves the problem it is, by definition, the right answer.

    I'm not suggesting that poor practice doesn't deserve a comment, that examples of good practice have no place, or that participants should not be encouraged to create quality code, especially when the original post seems to invite such suggestions.  But too often the OP is abused for not complying with some perceived standard, or responses are posted that are obviously way above OP's level of competence, or are not appropriate for the application.  And too often it is the discussion about what is wrong with OP's code or design that drags the thread off topic.

    Perhaps these forums ought to be part of the fight against the dumbing down of the global education system.  But the message I get from the way that MS has organised the forums is that they are all about getting usable answers to the question that was asked.

    Monday, January 9, 2012 11:07 PM
  • I agree.  I see it as my responsibility here to set the tone that newcomers will eventually adopt.  If I saw falming happen in a thread I was part of then I see it as my responsibility to call it out for what it is (with the intention to get it to stop) but not become personally involved with it.  If it continues then maybe it could be flagged...   which begs the question I guess comes round to the orginal question by Reed:  Should flaming be marked as abusive (if persisted after warnings) so that the moderators can deal with it?  @Reed, Is this kind of what you were asking about?


    I guess what I'm really asking is whether or not we can address this as a community and bring a stop to it, or if the general concensus is that some adminsitrative action must be taken (or at least requested).

    This thread is getting good contributions from valuable contributors, and that's the secondary goal... maybe if its said in enough ways by enough folks, it will start to sink into those hard-to-reach places.


    Reed Kimble - "When you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all"
    Monday, January 9, 2012 11:45 PM
  • From my personal opinion, this forum seems to value mediocre to poor answers. I do think there are far better places to get a much more superior answer or help.
    Stephen J Whiteley


    I can't argue with this at all...

    But it wasn't always like that.

    And it makes me sad because you are one of the voices I miss around here.

     


    Reed Kimble - "When you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all"
    Monday, January 9, 2012 11:47 PM
  • In other words, the forums are set up to solve problems rather than to be a centre of excellence or a resource for examples of best practice....


    I have always worked toward the opposite of that as my goal in participating.  =P

    These forums used to be full of people who felt it was important to understand why one solution was superior to another and would encourage the abandonment of any inferior path when the true objective called for it.

    But Stephen is right... most of those people were driven away because the OP would too often take the easy answer when one was supplied and basically blow-off the free wisdom they were given.  Rather than become the most popular resource for quality programming assistance, the forums have become the most popular resource for easy answers... I guess I see that now.

    Such a shame... I owe so much to what used to be "this community".

    Perhaps the forum as evolved out from under me and I am the one out of place as some others has proposed.  Maybe that is the ultimate purpose of this thread... to show me that I am the one who no longer belongs here.  =P


    Reed Kimble - "When you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all"
    Monday, January 9, 2012 11:56 PM
  • Maybe that is the ultimate purpose of this thread... to show me that I am the one who no longer belongs here.  =P
    Reed Kimble - "When you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all"


    What nonsense!

    Reed - pick your chin up out of your lap. Your "conclusion" is horribly flawed; if anything I would think that the assessment should cause you to arrive at exactly the opposite conclusion -- cause TO be here.

    My thoughts of course, you are free to have your own as everyone else here, but I very much disagree with that bit you put there.

    Tuesday, January 10, 2012 1:04 AM
  • Reed,

    You obviously need someone to talk to.

    As a moderator, you do know this is Visual Basic General Forum right? As a moderator, you should move this to the Dear Abby forum.

    The decline of quality of any forum is a direct result of the poor/incompetent moderation. Hell, you're probably the only one left here that speaks native English. Furthermore, there's only about 5 Americans in this entire forum. Morein, there's probably only 3 Americans that work at Microsoft.

    Do you see a pattern? Chung Li is asking "how for to code" and Habeesh Mashad is responding "for to code practices best, first to do study."

    Still confused on why this forum is taking a nose dive?


    Already reported as abusive
    Tuesday, January 10, 2012 1:28 AM
  • Perhaps the forum as evolved out from under me and I am the one out of place as some others has proposed.  Maybe that is the ultimate purpose of this thread... to show me that I am the one who no longer belongs here.  =P

    That might be so if the way that I interpret the purpose of the forum is correct. And if that interpretation is reinforced by the reactions of those who are asking the questions, then MS has judged their audience correctly, and the feedback provided to those who answer questions is effective in creating the product they want.  It would be nice to have a non-marketing statement of the real expectations, but I don't think that's going to happen.

    I can remember the first time that MS announced the support forums would be in-house instead of in public forums (and that's way back, in the Bulletin Board days) and the concerns that were expressed then about the declining standards of the responses, so it's not a new issue.   

    I think most participants accept that many of those posting questions here have little interest in the standards they are working to.  When you have a problem and a deadline, it's difficult to go past what works. And it is easy to just adopt the culture of the workplace or educational institution.

    There's no doubt that the response I like best is "Thanks, that solved it, but why did you do it that way?"  That tells me the answer was useful, but just far enough outside OP's experience to prompt an enquiry. 

    Of course we can complain about standards and attempt to encourage excellence, but that should happen in the context of an understanding of the expectations of those who are looking for answers.  Promoting appropriate standards should be an addendum to the principal task of providing a solution.

    Tuesday, January 10, 2012 2:00 AM
  • lol thanks for the support Frank, but that isn't what I meant...

    Adam also got it wrong - it's not a "dear abby" comment... have I really come off as the type to be so self-indulgent?  gosh...

    No, that was an introspective comment; the logical conclusion of the ideas put forth by Stephen and Acamar.  My choice of words gets me into trouble all the time =P  I was putting myself in with the group who want the more inquisitive questions seeking good answers, and was saying that as one of the last (if not the last) hold-out from that camp, maybe my dissatisfaction with this forum was due to my own out-dated vision of what these forums were supposed to be.  I was acknowledging an enlightening thought, not whining... make sense?

    Now, as Adam did adequately point out, the international versions of the forums seem to be pointless because the US forums are overrun with broken English (of course, not all of that comes from people foreign to the US, which is even sadder), so I would be hesitant to completely leave.  I still do a pretty decent job (most times) of understanding what the OP is really trying to ask, even given some of the most god-awful explanations.  And a number of times I have come across a simple question which is being drug out only because the people responding don't understand English well enough to get the question.

    Plus, every once in a while, there are still fun questions to answer.  =)

    If I was going to give up on anything at this point, it would be the troll hunt.  Let the trolls troll I guess and we moderators will just move threads and mark answers, removing abuse flags that are inappropriate and leaving the rest to whatever fate they end up with... and anyone who doesn't like the junk-filled threads can use another forum.  I don't really like it, but that's what I'm hearing: "Yes, there's a problem, but it is the nature of the beast".


    Reed Kimble - "When you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all"
    Tuesday, January 10, 2012 2:53 AM
  • If I was going to give up on anything at this point, it would be the troll hunt.  Let the trolls troll I guess and we moderators will just move threads and mark answers, removing abuse flags that are inappropriate and leaving the rest to whatever fate they end up with... and anyone who doesn't like the junk-filled threads can use another forum. 

    I don't think that follows.  Troll hunting, capture and extermination is still important in ensuring the forums operate as intended, even if that operation is not the form that we might prefer.

    But I think your question really comes down to "How do we go about it?".  The very issue of trolling is that attempts to stamp it out often make it worse.  Accusing someone of trolling is a very good way to get an emotional, off-topic, inflammatory response!

    Letting the trolls troll is often the best way to kill it off, or at least let it die a natural death.   But I think there is a point where a response is required.  Judging when that point is reached is very difficult and very personal.  But I will put a handful of absolutes out there: 
     - The warning is polite, unemotional and specific
     - one warning only per thread
     - no discussion
     - no 'me-too' replies (we are not taking a vote)   
     - escalate the issue if the behaviour continues

    Tuesday, January 10, 2012 5:24 AM
  • My answer to trolling...delete the abusive posting and offer no response. I've run several forums over the years. Trolls don't like a text response and more often than not take it as patronizing which, in turn, causes more trolling as some sort of payback.

    Simply delete the abusive post and forget about it. Trolls are well aware of the result because it was driven by their intent. Pointing out the intent does nothing more than compound the problem.

    JMO


    Already reported as abusive
    Tuesday, January 10, 2012 12:53 PM
  • Acamar wrote...

    Of course we can complain about standards and attempt to encourage excellence, but that should happen in the context of an understanding of the expectations of those who are looking for answers.  Promoting appropriate standards should be an addendum to the principal task of providing a solution.

    Give them enough rope to hang themselves then ask why they need it? :P

    Stephen J Whiteley
    Tuesday, January 10, 2012 7:15 PM
  •  

    This thread is interesting, It goes around the main reasons that make me lose any hope of still be heplful on this forum.

    I still read a few thread on the morning before going to work, but this post is the first I made since a while.  

     

    ..... And my english is not too good neither

    Tuesday, January 10, 2012 8:57 PM
  • Ah but Pennie you've always been a valuable contributor and your English, while broken, is certainly understandable.

    Thanks for joining the conversation; it is good to hear from you.  =)

    I'm finding it quite interesting to see the people who are stopping in to say, "this is why I don't visit these forums very much any more".


    Reed Kimble - "When you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all"
    Tuesday, January 10, 2012 10:17 PM
  • I have always thought it best not to "feed the trolls", as was said already, just remove the posts and move on. It becomes a matter of moderators then, are there enough available to scan through all the forums?

    What I have seen here in my short history is mostly differences of opinion becoming personal and occasionally pretty nasty. I don't see all that many instances and the users involved can be warned, threads locked, etc.

     To me, a troll is far removed from a "hothead"

    What I haven't seen personally and would love to see personally is constructive criticism of others submissions. I have posted dozens of code snippets and I am 100% sure that few of them if any are "perfect" - I would welcome anyones suggestions anytime. After all, we are all still learning, no ? Of course, that can and should be done politely.

     

    Wednesday, January 11, 2012 2:58 AM
  • I have always thought it best not to "feed the trolls", as was said already, just remove the posts and move on. It becomes a matter of moderators then, are there enough available to scan through all the forums?

    What I have seen here in my short history is mostly differences of opinion becoming personal and occasionally pretty nasty. I don't see all that many instances and the users involved can be warned, threads locked, etc.

     To me, a troll is far removed from a "hothead"

    What I haven't seen personally and would love to see personally is constructive criticism of others submissions. I have posted dozens of code snippets and I am 100% sure that few of them if any are "perfect" - I would welcome anyones suggestions anytime. After all, we are all still learning, no ? Of course, that can and should be done politely.

     


    Two things:

    First, about "just removing the posts"...

    This is one of the big things that people don't understand.  Moderators on this forum are different than most every other.  I wish you could read the guide... lol

    We help get questions answered.  That's it.  We don't do, or aren't supposed to do "admin" work - such as dealing with abuse.  We move threads, close threads, and change thread types.  We try to steer people onto the right path.  We can point out poor behavior and ask for it to stop, but to no greater degree than anyone else.

    The only thing we can do with abuse is see what was marked and why, then remove it if it is trivial nonsense lol or more accurately, if it doesn't actually violate the TOU.

    We are actually NOT supposed to just delete someone's post because it is trolling.  A blatent flame will violate the TOU and under extreme circumstances and with great discression (lol its darn near worded that way in the guide) we can delete those posts.  But we are generally discouraged from using that delete button.  Those kinds of issues are supposed to be handled by the admins.  There is an army of moderators, but each forum has a small team of admins.

    I think these are the people who seem to be missing from regular activity.  So I guess we either need a delegation of authority, or more administrative interaction with the community.

    Ok, with that point made lol, the best part of your post is the call for constructive criticism.  Boy do I miss that!

    The old forums were full of it.  And that's really how I learned .Net.  I would read questions looking for ones that sounded fun.  I had no idea how to solve the problem, but I would attempt a solution.  When I got something that appeared to work, I would post it as a possible solution.  Then shortly after someone who really knew what they were doing would come in and say "no, that sucks, and here's why...", followed by a proper example of how to do it.

    Now of course my pride injures as easily as the next person, but I would pick my chin up, admit that its not the first time I've failed, acknowlege that it certainly won't be the last, and then learn from the experience and move on.  Even if the other guy was an @$$ about it, I try not to stab back; afterall, he was right.

    So not only do I second the motion, I will also remember that not only is your skin thick enough to withstand a correction to any solution you might propose, but you welcome the input.

    Maybe what we need is a peer-rating system...  put multiple categories on every profile, ranging from knowledge to people skills, and let every other member pick a star rating or something.  Titles like Moderator, MCC, and MVP don't really indicate anything about the person making the post, but something like this which is truly community driven just might... with an option to filter out all posts by anyone with one of the three titles but below a certain rating might neatly solve the problem.  They can post all they want, but we could easily choose not to see it.

    Hmm... this has been an interesting thought-train to ride, thanks Devon!


    Reed Kimble - "When you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all"
    Wednesday, January 11, 2012 3:32 AM
  • What I have seen here in my short history is mostly differences of opinion becoming personal and occasionally pretty nasty. I don't see all that many instances and the users involved can be warned, threads locked, etc.

    What I haven't seen personally and would love to see personally is constructive criticism of others submissions. I have posted dozens of code snippets and I am 100% sure that few of them if any are "perfect" - I would welcome anyones suggestions anytime. After all, we are all still learning, no ? Of course, that can and should be done politely.

     

    Well said, Devon

    Yes, it is very discouraging when they become personal attacks. Nobody learns from that, and since we are all still learning, everyone loses.

    It is a fine line between constructive and destructive criticism sometimes. And some people just don't seem to know or see where that line is.  What I see to be beneficial to the community as a whole is rather than just saying "that's wrong", is to point out the part of the code that is viewed as less than ideal with an explanation of why it may not work or cause problems.

    A small code snippet may work by itself. However there may be issues when a part of an entire app. This is where the wisdom of experience comes into play. The trick is to pass that on in a friendly way so that both the corrector and correctee - are those real words ? -  can exit the thread with dignity.

    And Reed included one of the best ways to learn in my opinion. That is exactly what I did and still do. Read through the threads, find ones that had some interest to me, and try to solve the problem. Then compare my solution to others. I learn so much more than the original problem that way. It is one of my favorite answers to the questions like "how do I learn VB?".

    Wednesday, January 11, 2012 6:22 AM
  • Irony. I don't know if other users can see edits/abuse flags, but here's a little secret: moderators can see all deleted posts. :/ as well as any edit timestamps and abuse marking.

    I'll agree that 'titles' and 'ranking' means very little, but many seem to put a lot of stock in it. I believe that the titles should push people to be a bit more professional and questions and replies, but in no way marks that person as necessarily experienced or knowledgeable. That can only bee seen by looking at their actual history - something no-one is going to do if they are new and just need an answer.

    The other issue/theme common to this thread is language - not swearing but the English language in general.

    There are a few realities; this IS an English language forum. There are other non-english language forums, however they are pretty much barren in comparison (admittedly, I didn't delve too deeply because I cannot read any of the other languages). So, the best chance of help is through an english forum when they are less than fluent in English.

    The result is a wild range if incomprehensibility all the way up to minor typographical and grammatical errors.

    The best way to get a good answer is to communicate the problem clearly and succinctly.

    If the question is unclear then the responses will be unclear, or people will 'guess' what the answer should be, with those guesses coming from other non-English speakers.

    [Side note, this reminds me of the old World of Warcraft joke 'How I Mine for Fish']

    This is more and more prolific making it harder to really get involved in a thread where perceptibly the participants have little consideration for others. That is, if a poster cannot take care and consideration to clearly explain the issue, why should a potential responder take time, care and consideration in the reply?

    But as noted, this isn't just from non-English speaking people but native speakers (or, their only language is English).

    I do believe this is why so many windows/web based programs are complete and utter carp. The care (or rather lack of it) in communication is also present in the program. Coupled with a lack of education and an ignorance of basic programming techniques also lowers the overall standards for programming, and the quality of forum posts.

    To that end, 'trollish' posts are hard to identify and deal with. Obvious trolling, I think, is thankfully quite rare. I've deleted a few, but if the response is even partially relevant, regardless of the tone or language, I've let it stand. As a moderator, what is the moderators job? The moderators forum is useless in getting help or developing moderator skills to a higher level, to help improve the forum quality. Also, the theme of 'moderation' is to get threads marked as answered. This has no relation to answering the question, or even getting an answer.

    The forums have no standard applied to them (even though some have seen the general 'nettiquette' posts that have been around for decades). If one doesn't chastise or correct lower quality posts, of have a mechanism which does so (which Microsoft does not!) then you end up with, well, what is here. Indeed, the reverse is true: correction or chastisement, no matter that it is justified, is considered abusive. The 'abuse' system - such as it is - being abused. Political correctness gone rampant.

    I've kind of resigned my self to the fact that it's better to get paid to correct the programmatical atrocities, than to nip it in the bud and attempt to stop it from even beginning. This will be the way of the future: the few programmers who are really good architects will survive and get paid well for what they do, while those who code with a slew of Microsoft sanctioned qualifications and a degree or two in  new-modern-computer-science will be left in the cold wondering why, and squealing about it not being fair.


    Stephen J Whiteley
    Wednesday, January 11, 2012 2:07 PM
  • Stephen,

    Irony. I don't know if other users can see edits/abuse flags, but here's a little secret: moderators can see all deleted posts. :/ as well as any edit timestamps and abuse marking.

    as a "normal" user i can see that a post is "allready reported as abusive" but i can`t see the reason which would be the way i would like to see them.

    The other issue/theme common to this thread is language - not swearing but the English language in general.

    There are a few realities; this IS an English language forum. There are other non-english language forums, however they are pretty much barren in comparison (admittedly, I didn't delve too deeply because I cannot read any of the other languages). So, the best chance of help is through an english forum when they are less than fluent in English.

    The result is a wild range if incomprehensibility all the way up to minor typographical and grammatical errors.

    The best way to get a good answer is to communicate the problem clearly and succinctly.



    I totally agree with this. I am not a native english speaker, but i try my best. If i can`t express myself clearly i either use other words or i just use my dictionary ;-)

    Btw, the reading of the language isn`t that problem, but the spelling, grammar, finding the right english words...........


    Hannes

    If you have got questions about this, just ask.

    In a perfect world,
    users would never enter data in the wrong form,
    files they choose to open would always exist
    and code would never have bugs.

    C# to VB.NET: http://www.developerfusion.com/tools/convert/csharp-to-vb/
    • Edited by Heslacher Wednesday, January 11, 2012 2:26 PM
    Wednesday, January 11, 2012 2:26 PM
  • Stephen ...

    What can you expect from Microsoft?  They dont even control the quality of their own post.

    Have you look at the code samples, .. I am not saying that they are all bad, but many of them, if not buggy, uses very low quality standard.

    Also, are you reading the blogs? Here again many are good, but also many seems to have be writen in a hurry while drinking a beer

    Wednesday, January 11, 2012 2:38 PM

  • I totally agree with this. I am not a native english speaker, but i try my best. If i can`t express myself clearly i either use other words or i just use my dictionary ;-)

    Btw, the reading of the language isn`t that problem, but the spelling, grammar, finding the right english words...........


    Hannes

     

    your language syntax, I must say, is better than many of the native English speakers. And I, for one, appreciate that, Hannes.

    Perhaps you can start an on-line course to teach Americans how to write a proper sentence. I'm American, by the way, and am frankly appalled by the atrocious spelling and grammar exhibited in these posts from those who speak English. I can cut some slack to those from other countries since translation always loses something and is not always equivalent. At least some of them acknowledge this and write something like "sorry for my bad english".

    Sometimes the hardest part of providing help here is just deciphering the question and figuring out exactly what the problem is. The written description of the problem/question does not match the code sample provided. It can get frustrating when, after reading the post numerous times, you come up with what you believe the issue is, spend some time writing some code to solve the problem, post it...  and the OP says that is not what they meant.

    But I apologize for getting off-topic since this thread is about trolling. Funny how these discussion threads can go off in so many different directions.

    Wednesday, January 11, 2012 5:10 PM
  • Irony. I don't know if other users can see edits/abuse flags, but here's a little secret: moderators can see all deleted posts. :/ as well as any edit timestamps and abuse marking.

    ...


    Stephen J Whiteley


    LOL almost makes ya wanna post a few screen shots, doesn't it?  =P

    For all of the non-moderators reading this, the gist is that pretty much all of the issues being discussed in this thread have actually occured in this thread.  "Case-in-point" has become an understatement.


    Reed Kimble - "When you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all"
    Wednesday, January 11, 2012 5:37 PM
  • I totally agree with this. I am not a native english speaker, but i try my best. If i can`t express myself clearly i either use other words or i just use my dictionary ;-)
    Hannes, you understand and type English very well for it being a second language. You have helped very much a few times, and I am grateful.

    Wednesday, January 11, 2012 7:14 PM
  •  

    But I think your question really comes down to "How do we go about it?".  The very issue of trolling is that attempts to stamp it out often make it worse.  Accusing someone of trolling is a very good way to get an emotional, off-topic, inflammatory response!

     


    So at this point, do you think that we should try to compose a post which can be made a locked-sticky, that somehow tries to explain how trolling is viewed/handled?
    Reed Kimble - "When you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all"
    Thursday, January 12, 2012 12:08 AM
  • Hi everyone!

    Little late to drop in ?

    I haven't read all the posts but I've got the point so far. I am not regular anymore.. for like 6 months or so.. so I don't have much idea about current level of trolling either.

    Only thing I can say right now is, yes, it hurts. and answer to "should there be a troll hunt?" would definitely be yes. Do it.

    When I was active here, quality of posts, willingness of others to help was just too good. This place was great, I preferred it. If trolls are ruining it, please do something to save it :-)

    just my 2 cents.. don't have much to troll :-P

     

    and happy new year folks ! 


    Thanks

    Social lounge for MSDN forum users :-)
    Living on Earth may be expensive, but did you know that it includes a free trip around the sun? Isn't that worth it?
    Thursday, January 12, 2012 12:50 PM
  • your language syntax, I must say, is better than many of the native English speakers. And I, for one, appreciate that, Hannes.

    Thanks ;-) but don`t think i had been fishing for compliments.

    ...

    Sometimes the hardest part of providing help here is just deciphering the question and figuring out exactly what the problem is. The written description of the problem/question does not match the code sample provided. It can get frustrating when, after reading the post numerous times, you come up with what you believe the issue is, spend some time writing some code to solve the problem, post it...  and the OP says that is not what they meant.

    Exactly. But the worst case is always if, after you have spent time to solve the issue, the OP tell that it won`t work and then the OP start to tell the missing information which belongs to the problem ( somtimes again not everything ).
    Hannes

    If you have got questions about this, just ask.

    In a perfect world,
    users would never enter data in the wrong form,
    files they choose to open would always exist
    and code would never have bugs.

    C# to VB.NET: http://www.developerfusion.com/tools/convert/csharp-to-vb/
    Thursday, January 12, 2012 2:11 PM
  • Thanks for the kind words.
    Hannes

    If you have got questions about this, just ask.

    In a perfect world,
    users would never enter data in the wrong form,
    files they choose to open would always exist
    and code would never have bugs.

    C# to VB.NET: http://www.developerfusion.com/tools/convert/csharp-to-vb/
    Thursday, January 12, 2012 2:11 PM
  • Hi Omie,

    long time not seen here.

    Happy new year !


    Hannes

    If you have got questions about this, just ask.

    In a perfect world,
    users would never enter data in the wrong form,
    files they choose to open would always exist
    and code would never have bugs.

    C# to VB.NET: http://www.developerfusion.com/tools/convert/csharp-to-vb/
    • Edited by Heslacher Thursday, January 12, 2012 2:12 PM
    Thursday, January 12, 2012 2:12 PM
  • OT: and at (only) 45 posts, the Microsoft forum begins to choke. Does anyone else have this issue with some longer, but not excessive, threads?
    Stephen J Whiteley
    Thursday, January 12, 2012 7:44 PM
  • OT: and at (only) 45 posts, the Microsoft forum begins to choke. Does anyone else have this issue with some longer, but not excessive, threads?
    Stephen J Whiteley


    If you mean interminably long page load times - to the point that you think MIE has locked up - no, you're the only one Stephen.

    ;-)

    Thursday, January 12, 2012 8:06 PM
  • Someone from Microsoft posted a few month ago that they were aware of the problem but didn't judge it bad enough to take immediate action
    Thursday, January 12, 2012 8:23 PM
  • Stephen, You should try this one http://social.msdn.microsoft.com/Forums/en/Vsexpressvb/thread/182fd761-2a4d-41e6-afc9-b0fc9dffc01e there are 181 posts in it. I guess it will take 5 minutes to load ;-) I won't try it, i guess my phone would just die ! I have also read like pennie ( btw hi pennie) that they try to fix it. They are allready trying this for i guess 4 weeks.
    Hannes

    If you have got questions about this, just ask.

    In a perfect world,
    users would never enter data in the wrong form,
    files they choose to open would always exist
    and code would never have bugs.

    C# to VB.NET: http://www.developerfusion.com/tools/convert/csharp-to-vb/
    Thursday, January 12, 2012 8:38 PM
  • Hi Hannes

    ------------------

    Here are some thought (That I will post before this thread gets completly choked)

     

    -- THE PROBLEM OF THE OP THAT DONT KNOW HOW TO ASK A QUESTION

        Well, ... Is there something to do about it except to laugh.   We certainly cannot educate every devloppers and every amateur programmer in the word on how to ask a question and how to write an intelligible english.

     

    -- THE PROBLEM OF THE TROLL LIKE ATTITUDE

       In my understanding of the problem, it is mostly caused from the fact that some just have bad temper, or lack some self control.

    One good solution to this:

       Why cant we, regular of the forum , have a private forum where we can talk together without being on the public place. May be something similar to the Moderator forum

    this way, we could yell at each other, if it has to be ... and we could also exchange constructive idea, without spamming the OP threads.

    Thursday, January 12, 2012 9:56 PM
  • It seems to be jquery being slow: it takes 100% of a processor core for /ages/ on threads with many posts - if I stop the script (Firefox throws up a dialog asking if I want to continue or stop the script http://ajax.googleapis.com/ajax/libs/jquery/1.6.1/jquery.min.js:18) then the user name details in the <div>s with class="head" aren't filled in (except for where it says "Moderator").

    IE9 fares no better. Maybe someone would like to use the profiler in the IE9 dev tools to see what's taking the time?

    Yay! for thread drift :)

    --
    Andrew

    Thursday, January 12, 2012 10:07 PM
  • -- THE PROBLEM OF THE TROLL LIKE ATTITUDE

       In my understanding of the problem, it is mostly caused from the fact that some just have bad temper, or lack some self control.

    One good solution to this:

       Why cant we, regular of the forum , have a private forum where we can talk together without being on the public place. May be something similar to the Moderator forum

    this way, we could yell at each other, if it has to be ... and we could also exchange constructive idea, without spamming the OP threads.

    Pennie,

    this is an idea i would appreciate if this forum would reside inside the msdn forums, so i don`t have to monitor another forum. Just add it to My Forums and see all the posts in My Forum Posts. Yeah, i know i could use the bridge to use some kind of newsreader but i am used to the webbased style.

    But i just guess that is not what microsoft want. :-(


    Hannes

    If you have got questions about this, just ask.

    In a perfect world,
    users would never enter data in the wrong form,
    files they choose to open would always exist
    and code would never have bugs.

    C# to VB.NET: http://www.developerfusion.com/tools/convert/csharp-to-vb/
    Friday, January 13, 2012 7:16 AM
  • One good solution to this:

       Why cant we, regular of the forum , have a private forum where we can talk together without being on the public place. May be something similar to the Moderator forum

    this way, we could yell at each other, if it has to be ... and we could also exchange constructive idea, without spamming the OP threads.


    Great idea !

    a number of us did have something like that a couple years ago. One of our members set it up.

    And I'll tell you this - never had so much fun.  Some of the jokes and back-and-forth banter were hilarious. Plus, it was a great way to unwind from all the seriousness of answering questions on the Forums. We also had a technical room for coding stuff.

    But, having it part of the MSDN Forums then begs the question: define "regular". And who would make the decision on who gets admitted and who doesn't if it is to be "private"?

    I think that would only work if someone set it up on their own, and then privately informed certain members.

    Friday, January 13, 2012 8:59 AM
  • One good solution to this:

       Why cant we, regular of the forum , have a private forum where we can talk together without being on the public place. May be something similar to the Moderator forum

    this way, we could yell at each other, if it has to be ... and we could also exchange constructive idea, without spamming the OP threads.


    Great idea !

    a number of us did have something like that a couple years ago. One of our members set it up.

    And I'll tell you this - never had so much fun.  Some of the jokes and back-and-forth banter were hilarious. Plus, it was a great way to unwind from all the seriousness of answering questions on the Forums. We also had a technical room for coding stuff.

    But, having it part of the MSDN Forums then begs the question: define "regular". And who would make the decision on who gets admitted and who doesn't if it is to be "private"?

    I think that would only work if someone set it up on their own, and then privately informed certain members.


    jwavila,

    i guess it had been Omie who set the forum up.


    Hannes

    If you have got questions about this, just ask.

    In a perfect world,
    users would never enter data in the wrong form,
    files they choose to open would always exist
    and code would never have bugs.

    C# to VB.NET: http://www.developerfusion.com/tools/convert/csharp-to-vb/
    Friday, January 13, 2012 9:47 AM
  • One good solution to this:

       Why cant we, regular of the forum , have a private forum where we can talk together without being on the public place. May be something similar to the Moderator forum

    this way, we could yell at each other, if it has to be ... and we could also exchange constructive idea, without spamming the OP threads.


    Great idea !

    a number of us did have something like that a couple years ago. One of our members set it up.

    And I'll tell you this - never had so much fun.  Some of the jokes and back-and-forth banter were hilarious. Plus, it was a great way to unwind from all the seriousness of answering questions on the Forums. We also had a technical room for coding stuff.

    But, having it part of the MSDN Forums then begs the question: define "regular". And who would make the decision on who gets admitted and who doesn't if it is to be "private"?

    I think that would only work if someone set it up on their own, and then privately informed certain members.


    jwavila,

    i guess it had been Omie who set the forum up.


    Hannes

    If you have got questions about this, just ask.

    In a perfect world,
    users would never enter data in the wrong form,
    files they choose to open would always exist
    and code would never have bugs.

    C# to VB.NET: http://www.developerfusion.com/tools/convert/csharp-to-vb/

    Yes, Omie.  In fact, I think Jwavila and I (at least) are still admins on that forum.  If Omie hasn't read this already we can reach out to him and see if the forum is still operational and has a home.  He did a fantastic job creating it.
    Friday, January 13, 2012 1:19 PM
  • @ Dig-Boy: Omie has allready seen this thread.

    @ All: Pennie has startet a new thread to continue : http://social.msdn.microsoft.com/Forums/en-US/vbgeneral/thread/eefe4885-2e2a-4fd5-8fa0-bb589c93958a

     


    Hannes

    If you have got questions about this, just ask.

    In a perfect world,
    users would never enter data in the wrong form,
    files they choose to open would always exist
    and code would never have bugs.

    C# to VB.NET: http://www.developerfusion.com/tools/convert/csharp-to-vb/
    Friday, January 13, 2012 1:23 PM
  • Yep - it's still running.  Though it's been dormant for at least 6 months.
    Friday, January 13, 2012 1:24 PM
  • I hate to say this but the other day, Reed criticized me for misspelling his name. I retorted that I don't care how his name is spelled which I don't. My point is that perhaps a party like SJ might be better. I must admit think Reed usually keeps his nose pretty clean but at least in one case can be considered a personal attack.

    Renee


    "MODERN PROGRAMMING is deficient in elementary ways BECAUSE of problems INTRODUCED by MODERN PROGRAMMING." Me

    Friday, January 13, 2012 2:53 PM
  • When I say a "Troll hunt may be in order" I am saying that the troll-like behavior, which has been present in the forum in small doses for a long time, has reached a head and can no longer go without consequence; at least in my estimation...

    Now, let us be clear; here is the definition of Troll being used in this context:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_(Internet)

    Most people have no reason to click the link... anyone who spends time in modern forums should have a general idea of what a Troll is.  But just in case there is any question, there is an official definition for use in this thread.

    Up until now I didn't think there was a need to formally address this, but the number of issues is climbing and it seems that the community as a whole cannot reach a resolution.  The next step would have to be an email to the forum admin, requesting that repeat offenders be suspended for a period of time with a warning about their behavior and a reminder of the AUP of the site.  But does it need to go that far?

    Now maybe, just maybe, with a clear definition available, people will say to themselves "could the text I am about to post be considered trolling?" and then press cancel instead of submit when appropriate.

    If you decide to participate in this discussion, do not point fingers, call names, or start issues with other forum members directly.  Speak only in generals and address contributors as a whole.

    The topic is "should there be a troll hunt?" or in other words, has the level of trolling become intolerable to the community as a whole?


    Reed Kimble - "When you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all"

    Does this accorur in Firefox 11.0 Win 7

    Paul B Walker

    Tuesday, April 24, 2012 9:14 PM

  • "Does this accorur in Firefox 11.0 Win 7"

    That makes absolutely no sense to me at all (not because of the spelling error)

    Wednesday, April 25, 2012 12:19 AM