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MSDN & Expression (Billr17) - 12/4/2006 5:08 PM PST RRS feed

  • Question

  • By: Billr17

    Will the Expression toolset find its way into MSDN subscription downloads? If 
    so, which subscriptions will have it available? 
    
    General comments... Like the new UX. Noticed that some of the event delagate 
    methods are not being generated correctly in Visual Studio Pro & Team 
    Edition. Specifically several of the value changed events for the slider 
    where generating an method with only an single object parameter (ie: They 
    where missing the routedeventarg<T>). I can't be specific, because I don't 
    have Blend installed on my home machine yet. Otherwise looking more solid 
    then the previous release. But the pricing, god. Luckily I was sitting when I 
    read it. Looks like no hobbyist Blend development for me. At least I'll get 
    to play at work (But is that really playing?) :-/
    Tuesday, February 19, 2008 6:37 PM

Answers

  • By: Unni Ravindranathan (MS)
    The slider event handler issue is something we found too late to be fixing
    for the first Beta. We will address this for our next Beta.

    Thanks,
    -Unni

    "Billr17" <Billr17@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
    news:BCB8B2EA-7E14-4651-A597-487123F700B9@microsoft.com...

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    Tuesday, February 19, 2008 9:11 PM

All replies

  • By: Unni Ravindranathan (MS)
    The slider event handler issue is something we found too late to be fixing
    for the first Beta. We will address this for our next Beta.

    Thanks,
    -Unni

    "Billr17" <Billr17@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
    news:BCB8B2EA-7E14-4651-A597-487123F700B9@microsoft.com...

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    Tuesday, February 19, 2008 9:11 PM
  • By: Steve White (MS)
    I believe the plan is not to include Expression into MSDN and one rationale
    is that MSDN is a developer collection.

    Thanks for the heads-up about the generic argument not being generated - I
    can repro that.

    "Billr17" wrote:

    Click to show or hide original message or reply text.

    Tuesday, February 19, 2008 9:12 PM
  • By: Billr17
    @ Steve & Unni

    I was thinking that would be the case. Oh well. Hopefully work will pay up.
    Else I'll be doing lots of hand coding of XAML in 180 days. Thanks for the
    quick responses, and the heads up on the event issue.

    - Bill

    "Steve White (MS)" wrote:

    Click to show or hide original message or reply text.


    Tuesday, February 19, 2008 9:13 PM
  • By: Pavan Podila
    I don't completely agree that Blend is only for designers and not for
    developers and hence not included in MSDN. In my opinion it should be part of
    MSDN regardless.

    --
    the approach rather than the solution


    "Steve White (MS)" wrote:

    Click to show or hide original message or reply text.

    Tuesday, February 19, 2008 9:14 PM
  • By: Shawn B.
    >I don't completely agree that Blend is only for designers and not for
    > developers and hence not included in MSDN. In my opinion it should be part
    > of
    > MSDN regardless.

    Even moreso when you consider that people who buy Express Suite will
    supposedly be getting a copy of Visual Studio with it... if they arent'
    developers then why provide them a developer tool? But those who pay $4k or
    even $11k for Team or Team Suite subscriptions don't get the Expression
    tools?

    It makes sense when you consider the market they are going after. MSDN
    targets developers. Team suite targets teams (as if developers aren't a
    part of a team) and Expression target Adobe CS2 users. MSDN subscibers
    already paid MS and are already support Microsoft's agenda. Adobe CS2
    non-Expression users are new customers, new money, new oppurtunities to
    chase after. MS has no incentive to make their already loyal, paying, happy
    customers happier.

    Money, Money, Money... forget about the developers.



    Thanks,
    Shawn


    Tuesday, February 19, 2008 9:14 PM
  • By: Tor Langlo
    Hi Steve,

    > I believe the plan is not to include Expression into MSDN and one
    > rationale is that MSDN is a developer collection.

    Why is Office be available on MSDN, and not Blend (and the rest of
    Expression)? Are MS Word and MS Project developer tools more than Blend?

    Tor.

    Tuesday, February 19, 2008 9:16 PM
  • By: tlong@documentum.com
    Steve White, Please think about this --

    How did most of us find out about Expression and XAML in the first place?

    By attendng MSDN developer events.

    I will expect to see Expression Studio (if that's the same name and doesn't
    change next week) in my MSDN download area somewhere since it a tool that can
    be used to create web sites and web site content. It's has integration to
    Visual Studio projects so let's ensure we are aware of this and do the right
    thing.

    Please ensure that the right people are informed of this and make this
    available on MDSN Universal Subscriptions.

    Thanks,

    Tony





    "Steve White (MS)" wrote:

    Click to show or hide original message or reply text.

    Tuesday, February 19, 2008 9:16 PM
  • By: Steve White (MS)
    I was probably out of line with my 'one rationale' comment - it was as much
    my own personal rationale as anything else. I ought to stick to attempting to
    answer the technical questions! We'll happily pass along your feelings to
    those who make these decisions and if we can get a more official comment then
    we'll relay that to you.

    -Steve

    "tlong@documentum.com" wrote:

    Click to show or hide original message or reply text.


    Tuesday, February 19, 2008 9:17 PM
  • By: Richard Clark
    I understand that Expression Design is not included in MSDN. But I
    really don't understand for Blend (why OneNote?)
    Just one test:

    "Is there someone in this newsgroup which is not a developer?"

    (Unni, you're not allowed to answer ;-))

    --
    Richard Clark - MVP .NET
    http://www.c2i.fr
    http://www.project-hoshimi.com


    "Steve White (MS)" <SteveWhiteMS@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in
    message news:9DF09DE5-49C5-470F-9D3B-BD9E845F8392@microsoft.com:

    Click to show or hide original message or reply text.

    Tuesday, February 19, 2008 9:18 PM
  • By: Maglez
    Yes, Blend is mostly targeting designers, but what Microsoft is trying to
    achieve is to make designer and programmers to work more closely and better
    by allowing designer to focus on design and programmers to focus on
    programing.

    The most usual scenario for Blend users is to design an UI for programmers
    add the code behind. Now designers and programmers can be working on the same
    project, physically.

    If Blend is not included on MSDN, then Microsoft will be breaking what they
    have been building, it doesn't make sense.

    One minute pause... Oh guys, I think I have seen the light at the end of
    the tunnel, let play both case scenarios, Blend being include on MSDN and
    Blend being not included on MSDN and let see what may happen :)

    Blend is included on MSDN. Then programmers will have the tool they curretly
    lack of, an application to design UIs. Because they got the tool, they will
    use it doing their own UI design. This may not be desirable... yes, I am a
    designer.

    Blend is Not included on MSDN. For those companies that let their
    programmers to design the UI, they may continue doing so, but now that they
    know that there is a better way to work with designers, they may consider to
    hire a designer to work with them using Blend. For those companies that
    already let a UI designer to do the UI, they will take advantage of the new
    application and they will work better.

    Umm, I don't know, Microsoft probably shouldn't include Blend on MSDN.

    Please, no one get offended for me insinuating that programmers cannot design.


    Miguel Gonzalez.



    "Steve White (MS)" wrote:

    Click to show or hide original message or reply text.


    Tuesday, February 19, 2008 9:19 PM
  • By: Joe Mamma

    No offense.
    I am a developer who can do a little design. I can't color match to save my
    life though.

    The issue to me is the one man projects, which to my knowledge is the
    greatest in terms of numbers of projects being developed.

    From the learning I have done so far with Blend/WPF I don't think the
    workflow has been thought through or realized yet. The developer CAN NOT
    start developing without knowing the needs of the UI. The designer is not
    going to get very far without having data sources to bind to. So, we
    (developers) will build up fake XML data sources to get the designers jump
    started and then the two might be able to work independently. But I
    seriously doubt if it will as smooth as hoped. I see many times where the
    developers are going to be waiting on the designers for requirements, and
    then the designers waiting on the developers for binding data. In reality,
    things will be as they are now; some up front UI design guesses, 1 person
    (or group) switching between both roles through the development phase, and
    MAYBE some final eye candy designer work at the end.

    As a developer, I want to start developing projects for my clients using WPF
    and .Net 3.0. But I do not believe the tools that will included in visual
    studio will be adequate AND I do not want to code UIs by hand in XAML
    markup. So I really want to use Blend, and it is going to cost me extra.
    Now in the long run $600 isn't a whole lot, but at the same time, it is not
    a whole lot of lost profit either for MS to just include it in MSDN.

    I'm on the fence as to whether or not I'm unhappy with the studio bundling
    and exclusion from MSDN. Or more correctly, how much I am unhappy. Front
    Page was part of MSDN, now Expression Web, which is just an update to front
    page, contrary to what I read and thought it was going to be, is not part of
    MSDN. It doesn't make sense.

    And finally - I personally do not think WPF is anywhere near ready for prime
    time anyhow. Like VB3, initially we will have to depend on third party tools
    to make usable apps. The very large high budget development efforts will be
    able to use WPF, but general line of businesses will not. Not until WPF V2
    anyhow. After years of development, you can tell, someone said, "finish what
    you got, we need to ship it." WPF is a great idea, but it needs some real
    world use maturity added in.



    "Maglez" <Maglez@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
    news:81DEE318-AFC3-4059-9504-5A2F67B0EE4D@microsoft.com...

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    Tuesday, February 19, 2008 9:20 PM
  • By: Shawn B.
    > As a developer, I want to start developing projects for my clients using
    > WPF and .Net 3.0. But I do not believe the tools that will included in
    > visual studio will be adequate AND I do not want to code UIs by hand in
    > XAML markup. So I really want to use Blend, and it is going to cost me
    > extra. Now in the long run $600 isn't a whole lot, but at the same time,
    > it is not a whole lot of lost profit either for MS to just include it in
    > MSDN.

    You bring up a good point. I pay (out of my pocket for my own personal
    reasons/uses) $4k for an MSDN Team Developer edition. My company does not
    even provide me with a Team edition, only VS 2005 Professional. But as a
    professional developer, I like to have decent tools since I write enterprise
    applications that need scale to millions of requests per day and sometimes
    hour.

    If for some strange reason the artistic in me screams to escape, after
    paying $4k for the year I need expression studio, I'm not going to spend
    $600 some-odd for another tool that really should be included with the MSDN.
    Thus, if I *need* to spend the money, I might just go with the proven
    industry leader and use Flash or CS2/Flex. Or I might just get the MSDN
    Premium without Team and then drop the extra $600 some-odd for Expression
    Suite. Which ever choice I make, Microsoft loses money from me because
    either I get MSDN Team and spend more money on a competitor and go the route
    of a direct competitor, or I purchase a lessor MSDN and spend money on
    Expression but the money spent on that option is less than if I renew an
    MSDN Team edition each year.

    Of course, if they bundled Expression Suite with MSDN Team or higher or
    something like that, they wouldn't make extra money from me having to pay
    for extra software, but I do get exposure to the tool and will use it and in
    turn take advantage or their nextgen graphics technology which quite
    frankly, right now, as an independant, I was starting to get into but I'm
    stopping and won't go any further with WPF since the means to do so costs
    more money than I have at my disposal. Will my skills fall behind for this
    reason? Possibly, but if the mojority of people/devs/shops are feeling the
    same pains I am than the market will progress slowly to adoption and I won't
    really be behind overall. If there is mass adoption and I can't land
    employment/contracts as a result, than I might just pony up but thus far
    I've never been forced to use Flash/Flex so I don't see how WPF will be
    different.

    I think the market will perceive WPF/e and WPF as a Flash Killler -- er,
    competitor -- and treat it as such. Only time will tell.

    Developing for Microsoft isn't as fun, interesting, or fullfilling as it
    used to be. First they do away with the concept of Universal and devide you
    up into developer/team members and now designers. The galling audicity is
    that for those of us who pay $4k for a subscription, don't get Expression
    because we aren't categorized as designers by Microsoft, yet it looks like
    when you purchase Expression Suite you'll be getting VS 2005 with it but why
    do they need it if they aren't developers?



    No Thanks,
    Shawn


    Tuesday, February 19, 2008 9:20 PM
  • By: Joe Mamma

    you kinda scared when I saw the comment about pricing. It wasn't as bad as
    you made me think it was going to be.

    But I agree on the "no hobbyist Blend development for me", with limited
    personal funds it doesn't look like i'll be spending any more personal time
    learning WPF. Thanks MS for making me less valuable in the market. I'll
    remember your kindness when the next client asks what platform he should use
    for his new development project. Gate's knew it was the developers driving
    the market. Balmer seems to have ignored that (or has Raike's taken over
    finally?)

    If you really want it, the angle I see on it is; buy the Web upgrade from
    any front page for $99, then the studio upgrade when available for $349 -
    total approx $450 as opposed to $599 for studio. Amazon is listing web with
    approx a 10% discount - so it may even be a little cheaper.

    It looks like they are pushing studio - cant say I blame them BUT I'm either
    a desktop developer or a web developer - I really would prefer a choice to
    buy or not buy both tools.


    "Billr17" <Billr17@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
    news:BCB8B2EA-7E14-4651-A597-487123F700B9@microsoft.com...

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    Tuesday, February 19, 2008 9:21 PM
  • By: Ralf Ehlert
    The price is in my opinion too much - larger companies can pay the price but
    single developers or students/hobbiest not. I have to say that Microsoft
    products are in my view really cool but then I read the price it is a shock
    for me as a student witz no income... The same goes to VS - the features for
    VS 2005 Professional compared with the standard version aren't so much but it
    costs ca. 600$ more. The team editions have more features compared to the
    professional version but unit testing, code coverage or code analysis can you
    found as freeware in the i-net so my question: is the price for a singel team
    edition with ca. 3500$ (price without MSDN subscription for one year)
    justified?

    Ralf

    "Joe Mamma" wrote:

    Click to show or hide original message or reply text.

    Tuesday, February 19, 2008 9:22 PM
  •  
    Expression Newsgroup Migrator said:

    By: Maglez


    Yes, Blend is mostly targeting designers, but what Microsoft is trying to
    achieve is to make designer and programmers to work more closely and better
    by allowing designer to focus on design and programmers to focus on
    programing.

    The most usual scenario for Blend users is to design an UI for programmers
    add the code behind. Now designers and programmers can be working on the same
    project, physically.

    If Blend is not included on MSDN, then Microsoft will be breaking what they
    have been building, it doesn't make sense.

    One minute pause... Oh guys, I think I have seen the light at the end of
    the tunnel, let play both case scenarios, Blend being include on MSDN and
    Blend being not included on MSDN and let see what may happen :)

    Blend is included on MSDN. Then programmers will have the tool they curretly
    lack of, an application to design UIs. Because they got the tool, they will
    use it doing their own UI design. This may not be desirable... yes, I am a
    designer.

    Blend is Not included on MSDN. For those companies that let their
    programmers to design the UI, they may continue doing so, but now that they
    know that there is a better way to work with designers, they may consider to
    hire a designer to work with them using Blend. For those companies that
    already let a UI designer to do the UI, they will take advantage of the new
    application and they will work better.

    Umm, I don't know, Microsoft probably shouldn't include Blend on MSDN.

    Please, no one get offended for me insinuating that programmers cannot design.


    Miguel Gonzalez.



    "Steve White (MS)" wrote:

    Click to show or hide original message or reply text.




    For the 10 years I have worked in development none of the companies I have worked for have ever had a Web Designer. At most you will have a marketing team who may mockup pages, or go externally to get pages mocked up which you then have to create. My last company was a LARGE ISP so not just small companies.

    I cannot complain as at present as my current company is under the Empower ISV programme so have gotten the premium subscription for a very low rate, and have to say the whole experience has been fantastic.

    The Expression Web tool, even with a few issues that need ironing out has revolutionised the way I create Web UI projects. Coming from a background where my specialism is Middle / Data tier development (SQL and Oracle), working in a small company means I am Manager / Architect/ DBA / Developer / Designer / Support. So any help creating websites/graphics and anything else is a godsend. I have tinkered with blend but I cannot envisage at this stage building end to end XAML sites, and have failed to see how xaml components can be integrated into existing websites. Web does not support an XAML control. Maybe I need to go through some more examples like the fabrikam but time is of the essence.

    To cut a long story short because Ive bored myself now!! I understand that in an ideal world there should be designers and developers as I know I am not great at design but unfortunately in the real world it tends to be Developers working alongside marketing/MD's that become developers/designers. Its the same old story as Developers develop and testers test. But how many small companies employ a seperate test team??

    So thanks for adding the Web and Blend to MSDN Web has been a dream, but it would be usefull if MS could now also add the whole package as it seems bizare not to go that extra yard!!

    Thanks

    Paul
    paul
    Friday, April 11, 2008 10:50 AM