inline adjustment doesn't work

Question

I put in the editor settings everything to inline. When I changed one picture in the normal editng view he still opens the css file and change it. 

And what is very anoying is that he change it for all pictures. 

He puts this in the CSS file: 

img
{border-top-width: 0px;
border-top-style: none;
border-top-color: inherit;
border-right-width: 0px;
border-right-style: none;
border-right-color: inherit;
border-bottom-width: 0px;
border-bottom-style: none;
border-bottom-color: inherit;
border-left-width: 0px;
border-left-style: none;
border-left-color: inherit;
margin-bottom: 0px;
}

Answer 1

??  Who is "he"?  What do you mean by "Normal Editing View", Code View or Design View?

Step by step, exactly what commands are you using, what are you thinking they will accomplish, and what is actually happening?

Answer 2

Sorry - I have the German Version - "Entwurf" which is "Design View". 

with "he" I mean the program. 

Step by step: 

1. I change in Design View the settings of a picture (border:0px). 

2. Expression Web opens the CSS file to edit it

I think Expression Web should only change it inline and not in the CSS because I put everything to inline in the editors CSS settings (Menu > Extras > Site Editor Options).

Answer 3

Yes I see this.

If EW opens and edits your CSS style sheet I always close it and say 'NO' to saving changes and then re-do things as I want.

You need to be careful EW hasn't inserted numerous CSS rules within your HTM page as well - you do get used to it though :)

Answer 4

Setting EW to use all inline styles seems to defeat the purpose of using a style sheet and dynamic web template (DWT) or Master Pages.  If you set your style rules in your style sheet then apply them to your html tags you can easily change them within the style sheet rather than going thru and entire page/site and editing all the rules. It also makes the page much faster loading.  One of the first rules I add to any style sheet is

body img {
    border: 0px;
    text-decoration: none;
    max-width: 100%;
    }
which keeps the ugly blue border from appearing around any images that are hyperlinked.  The other images styles I add to every style sheet are:

.imglft {
    padding: 5px 10px 5px 0px;
    float: left;
}
.imgrgt {
    padding: 5px 0px 5px 10px;
    float: right;
}
.imgctr {
    display: block;
    margin: 0px auto;
}

I can then apply them to any images to float them left, right or center them on the page.  So create classes that you want to apply to images as well as other html tags and use them as you need/want them.

You might find this helpful Setting Up Expression Web by Tina Clarke. It is a free Ebook you can download. Make sure to get the correct one for your version of EW.

While on her site, check out her free ebook on Dynamic Web Templates.

pat

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Pat Geary - Microsoft MVP

Expression  Web Tutorials & Templates | Expression Web Blog | Migrating from FrontPage to Expression
 - Free EW Community Toolbar - Free Site Templates

Answer 5

You may find it easier to post in the German language forum for Expression Web at http://social.msdn.microsoft.com/Forums/de/expressionstudiode/threads

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Answer 6

Kathy, like many languages (and all romance languages), German is inflected, so nouns have gender. In German, masculine nouns take "der" as an article (unless plural) and feminine (or plural) take "die" as an article.

When I see a poster here use "he" or "she" in that fashion, I just presume that they are using English as a second language. Better, IMO, than those who post in their own tongue and expect us to do the translation for them.  ;-)

cheers,
scott

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Answer 7

"Better, IMO, than those who post in their own tongue and expect us to do the translation for them."

...or native English speakers who post rambling gibberish that only they can understand. (names withheld) ;- )

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Answer 8

"Kathy, like many languages (and all romance languages), German is inflected, so nouns have gender."

I speak French, and know that.

In the context of the first post, spelling out "EW" would be the thing to do, as there was no prior reference for the pronoun, gendered or neutral.  With "he" it could have been a person the OP was working with.   :)

Answer 9

Step by step: 

1. I change in Design View the settings of a picture (border:0px). 

2. Expression Web opens the CSS file to edit it

I think Expression Web should only change it inline and not in the CSS because I put everything to inline in the editors CSS settings (Menu > Extras > Site Editor Options).

First, what version of EW are you using? I know that EW 3 and 4 do not have an "Extras" menu, but I don't remember if 2 did. This information might help to figure out what is happening. That said, I have never seen the CSS file open when I make changes in the page. I don't use picture properties to style anything, but when I do just for testing, it simply generates a style section in the head of the page with an autostyle defined. I have no idea how or why a CSS file would open for editing. Can you elaborate more on your settings (maybe even a screenshot of the relevant settings)?

Jim

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'Tis the business of little minds to shrink; but he whose heart is firm, and whose conscience approves his conduct, will pursue his principles unto death. Thomas Paine

Answer 10

You need to be careful EW hasn't inserted numerous CSS rules within your HTM page as well - you do get used to it though :)

This is only true if you do your styling in design view. If you define your styles and assign them to elements (rather than directly styling each element), or if you edit directly in the code, you will never get unwanted junk inserted in the page. Your best bet is to edit in Split View. This allows you to still see a rough approximation of the page in Design View, but quickly see if you accidentally add any junk code.

Jim

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'Tis the business of little minds to shrink; but he whose heart is firm, and whose conscience approves his conduct, will pursue his principles unto death. Thomas Paine

Answer 11

@Pat 

I don't like to set up to many design rules and to choose them when I want to make small changes. I like to push the for example to push the "bold" button or to apply a color without making my style sheet longer and longer. 

@Badgerer
Thank you - Your comments are very appreciated - Makes me feel less alone.

@Cherley
Thank you - I might try that though I find  the English Community bigger and therefore more helpful. I am sorry for the language mistakes I make.

I just hope to get more answers here. 

@fcphdJim
I use Version 4 SP2. 
I like to edit in Design View. Why EW wants to interfere in that when I explicitly told EW that I don't want interference? It is a bug!!! And the most annoying is that I wanted to change one picture and EW puts a css-rule in my css file that is for all pictures. 

img

{border-top-width: 0px;
border-top-style: none;
border-top-color: inherit;
border-right-width: 0px;
border-right-style: none;
border-right-color: inherit;
border-bottom-width: 0px;
border-bottom-style: none;
border-bottom-color: inherit;
border-left-width: 0px;
border-left-style: none;
border-left-color: inherit;
margin-bottom: 0px;
}

Answer 12

Michael: EW is not designed for the work flow you describe. It is not a drag-and-drop WYSIWYG (What You See Is What You Get--I don't know if there is a German equivalent to that phrase) program. It is not made for you to work in Design View exclusively. You can do some things, but it's not made for that.

EW (and Dreamweaver) expect you to understand how to set styles for different parts of your site. In the example above, all you have to do is properly design a style for that picture and give it its own name; then that style won't effect any other picture. That is basic CSS knowledge; you might want to spend time taking the tutorials at w3schools.com to get an orientation in this. If you are producing websites for clients, they should expect to be getting a standards-compliant website.

You can press the Bold button (or similar toolbar buttons), but it should be on very rare occassions. You are expected to do virtually all of your styling in the Styles and Properties Panels (just like in Dreamweaver). That will result in a properly structured website, with the styles where they belong--on the external style sheet, separating content from presentation. 

Expression Web is a professional-level website design tool (as is Dreamweaver) that produces standards-compliant websites. It follows the accepted practices of modern website building, including putting all styles in external style sheets (where they only have to load once). Doing so is easier to maintain and more efficient and loads faster for the visitor. It is the very basis of CSS.

EW is not designed to be used like Word or Publisher (or--shudder--FrontPage), but it seems like that is what you are asking of it. When you use a program like EW or Dreamweaver you have to work within the parameters of the program. What you describe is not a bug. If you don't want to work the way EW was designed, then possibly EW is not the right program for you--neither is Dreamweaver. A simpler drag-and-drop WYSIWYG program may be more to your liking, but they will not produce standards-compliant websites.

There are only two professional-level website design program on the market--Expression Web and Dreamweaver. Four or five regular participantss in this forum use both. And I can assure you that you will experience the same frustrations with Dreamweaver if you don't work the way the program was designed. It's not a bug.

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Answer 13

Actually using the "B" button isn't wrong by itself. That should put a <strong> in your code which has a semantic meaning. It is one of those elements that is there not for presentation for screen readers to know when to add force to a word. Use it when if you were doing a presentation using the web content as a script you would make your voice deeper or louder. Using "I" adds an "emphasis" like you would do when you are speaking to indicate air quotes or other comment.

If it is purely presentational then you should use css with font weight or font style. By insisting on putting every style inline you are creating a bloated page that is far harder to maintain. The presentation you use more than once within your site should be in an external stylesheet to reduce the size of each html page and take advantage of browser caching. This is nothing new and has been the standard for more than 10 years (CSS 2 came out in 1998).  Inline CSS makes it much harder to have a consistent presentation not only within the page but also between pages in the site. If you work exclusively in design view without an understanding of HTML and CSS you will end up with display issues cross browser (and especially on mobile devices) that you will not be able to fix. Expression Web is not an application for people who are unwilling to learn HTML and CSS and just want to work in a design surface using toolbar buttons. The web has grown too complex for that approach for any but the most basic, feature limited websites. There are tools like Coffee Cup software's WYSIWYG editor that you can use just by selecting from a limited selection of options that will produce sites that hold up well cross browser. However, they accomplish that by constraining what you can do within the tool. Expression Web (and Dreamweaver as mentioned above) do not limit you to predefined bits you can do. Because they do not constrain what you can do it is possible to make a great big mess because both programs expect you to be informed enough to make your own decisions on how to create your site. With that freedom comes the responsibility to know whether or not what you are doing will work the way you intend.

BTW, I know there are or at least were knowledgeable contributors to the German list because I've met a few at previous MVP summits. So while it may not be as busy you should consider posting your questions there as well. FWIW, I compliment you on posting here, it takes effort for a non-native speaker. Despite having gone to university for a while in France my French is no longer good enough for me to comfortably ask technical questions in a French language forum.

Finally, my name is Cheryl not Cherly.

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Answer 14

@Cheryl@Bill

I never said that I don't want to use CSS. I said that I want to have full control over the code that goes in the html page and the code that goes into the style sheet. 

@Bill
Bill, please use a dictionary and look up what is a "Web Standard". Having inline code do not conflict with any Web Standard. And since we do not use dial up modems anymore a few line of extra code are not harming anyone. Especially not when I want to have just a few things inline. And writing for every little thing a css rule just prolongs the design process for small sites (1-5 pages). Time means money. If I can save time I do so. And EW should support me in this effort. My customers are very happy about my service and I am sure they appreciate the lower price because I didn't have to spend hours typing in CSS rules for every little thing and getting the same result at the end.

And I am sorry: Changing one picture in design mode should not mean for EW to put up a general css rule in my style sheet for all pictures. That is definitely a bug. 

And yes, you can adjust Expression Web to put up code inline. See picture.

So EW has clearly the option for that. So I don't know what Bill is talking about when saying: "EW is not designed for the work flow you describe." Of course it is designed for that. Why else I have the option to do that.

Answer 15

Michael,

With your Tools - Page Editor - CSS settings, shown above, when you drag an image onto the page and modify its syling with the "picture properties" menu, EW creates an inline style for the image, for me.

UNLESS:  You have an attached CSS file that already has an img element style in it.  (Even an empty style.)

In that case the only thing EW is styling is the img element itself, and it assumes you are modifying the existing img element style, which exists in the CSS file, not creating a style specific to this instance of the img element.

If you do not want to use common styling for the img element, remove the img elment from your CSS sheet.

After doing that, if you have no class or id assigned to the image, the style will be created inline. (If you assign a new id or class to your image before styling it, EW will create a style for that id or class in the <head> of the current page.) 

Answer 16

Ah, OK, now I see what you are wanting to do. As Kathy explained, EW is doing what it thinks you want it to do. If you want it to create the style inline, you have to expressly tell it to do so. The setting of "Auto" or "Manual" does not do that. Either setting still leaves the choice of external, embedded, or inline.

To do it the way you want to do it, and ensure that it goes inline for a specific element, here's what you do...

First, select the element to which you want to add the inline style, so that EW knows where the target is. Then, click the style application menu icon at the lower right, and make sure that both "Mode: Manual" and "Style Application Toolbar" are selected, like this:

When you do, you will see a new toolbar appear in your toolbars section, which looks like this:

Make sure that "New Inline Style" is selected in the "Target Rule" dropdown. (Note that it will not be available unless there is a currently selected element.) Now, you can use any of the formatting icons (font color, highlight, assigned font, size, etc.) in the Common toolbar (shown above) and watch those rules be applied in code view, inline, as they are added.

I personally work in Split View, which allows me to watch as these changes occur, so you may want to get into the habit of doing so, as well.

BTW, no one was trying to hide anything. Like most of us here, I only rarely ever use inline styling, and I know CSS so well, and EW's Intellisense is so good, that when I do, I just hand code it inline myself. I had, therefore, never had reason to investigate this capability before. FWIW, this procedure is clearly spelled out in EW's Help, which you are invited to peruse. Here it is:

To create new styles by using the Style Application toolbar

• In Design view or Code view, in your web page, switch to Manual style application mode.

• Either put your cursor in the content you want to format or select the content.

• On the Style Application toolbar, click the Target Rule drop-down box, and do one of the following:

  • To have Expression Web generate a new style for you, based on the formatting you apply, and apply the style to the current content, select New Inline Style, New Auto ID, or New Auto Class, and then format the content by using Expression Web.

  • To design a new style by using the New Style dialog box and optionally apply the style to the current selection, select Apply New Style. For more information, see Create a style.

So, now you can add inline styling whenever you wish going forward, using EW's formatting icons.   ;-)

cheers,
scott

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Answer 17

Bill, please use a dictionary and look up what is a "Web Standard". Having inline code do not conflict with any Web Standard. And since we do not use dial up modems anymore a few line of extra code are not harming anyone.

No, many of us use cellular data which is metered and charged by the mb. So you could say that it is more important to keep your file size down than back when there was slow but unmetered connections.

Inline styles have their place, primarily for specificity and the truly one off use.  Using inline for every element is not good practice.

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Answer 18

I don't need a dictionary. The way your post read (at least to some of us), it seemed that you wanted to use ONLY inline styling, and not use the external style sheet. That does go against all modern, standard practices, and EW is designed to work within the scope of modern best practices.

There are many people who come in this forum who use EW like Word or Publisher, and they push the toolbar buttons continually, and use Headings as a way to change font sizes (without understanding the semantic meaning of Headings) and they have styles overriding other styles and styles conflicting and sometimes over 150 different styles (!) in the head of one page. They are working in the Design Pane only and don't see the mess they have created in code. And as I read your question it sounded like you were going to end up like that.

You can, as I said, use the toolbar buttons once in a while. But you also need to actually learn EW4. You have complained about its "bugs" on more than one occassion when the problem (including this one) was your lack of knowledge of how to use the program properly.

So, before you cry "Bug!" again, you might ask in here if there is a way to do what you want to do that you may just not realize.

There is a very big difference between asking "Why won't this program do X?" and "Will this program do X?" And they elicit very different reactions from people.

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Answer 19

@Bill @Cherley
Again: I never said I want to use only inline styles. Why are you so stubborn on this? Of course it is not a good practice to use only inline styles and of course it makes the code to big. But to have just some inline styles do not conflict with any Web Standards and do not add Megabytes to the websites. 

@Bill @paladyn

Ok, in the future I will be more carefull about the word bug. But in this case it is still a bug because I did select "Manual mode" and "inline styling"

@Katy
Thank you Katy. Now I know what caused it. Clearly a bug because if I set it to "manual" and "inline" it should not change anything in the CSS. 

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Michael Janik

Answer 20

Michael,

Please get my name correct. You've misspelled it in two different ways. As I said, using a combination of Kathy & paladyn's posts I agree it is a bug. However, I think much of what has been said in this post is a language issue. Your early posts read to a native speaker as if you do want to use only inline styles. That's what it means when you set every line in the Page Editor Options > CSS tab to "inline".

You don't need to do that to use Scott's manual method (paladyn). I tested with my normal CSS settings (everything set to rules) and with everything switched to "inline". The fact that it is changing by removing a previous definition - in my test case "border: 1px solid #000;" indicates a real bug. One that apparently nobody else has encountered before most likely because if I want an inline style I work in the code part of split view using intellisense to add the style. I much prefer to you shorthand which MS doesn't do very efficiently when you use the toolbar button.

I typically don't put borders on by default so I'd be adding one as:

<img srv="somepic.jpg" height="100px" width="100px" style="border: 1px solid #000;" />

While MS would have:

<img src="somepic.jpg" height="100px" width="100px" style="border-style: solid; border-width: 1px; padding: 1px 4px" />

Which is an actual example of what MS did AND is wrong. I did not intend to add any padding which apparently is part of the default style defined for the "All Borders" option from the Borders toolbar button. It also omits a color which means that in some browser no border would apply. If I add a color it in the CSS Properties Panel it gets even longer.

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Answer 21

Thank you Cheryl for noticing this bug. 

When I set the Page Editor Option the CSS tab to inline it means that I don't want the Editor to interfere. It doesn't mean that I don't have a Style-Sheet where I want to put in code MANUALLY. 

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Michael Janik

Answer 22

Thank you Cheryl for noticing this bug. 

When I set the Page Editor Option the CSS tab to inline it means that I don't want the Editor to interfere. It doesn't mean that I don't have a Style-Sheet where I want to put in code MANUALLY. 

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Michael Janik

Michael, did you even try the procedure I delineated in my last post? It lets you do exactly what you are wanting to do—apply an inline style using the formatting buttons.

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Answer 23

Michael,

Reread Scott's post. He details how you create an inline style using manual style creation. You can do that without setting every element to inline style as you did in Page Editor Options. That setting is what has led to massive confusion in the thread and the belief by pretty much everyone who responded that you wanted all styles everywhere in your sites to be inline.

It is not the way to accomplish what you want to do - override previously defined properties. For that you use the manual style method that Scott provided step by step with screenshots.

The two bugs I found is that when you do use the proper method to create an inline style in Expression Web is basically the one you found - that a previously defined property/value pair is removed from a block level definition. That should not happen when you have manual style set to "inline". I also discovered that if you use the toolbar button to add a border the style created is incomplete because it doesn't include a border-color AND because it adds padding: 2px 4px by default. This maybe appropriate for a table cell but is not appropriate for an image.

I have sent an email to someone I know on the dev team to bring these bugs to their attention. I doubt either will be addressed until a new version is released but at least I know it has been logged.

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Answer 24

Thank you Cheryl and thank you Scott.

@Scott I should have responded to your post earlier which is by the way a very nice description how to do it the other way round. Thank you very much for your effort. It is highly appreciated. Thank you both for your support. I can see you dedication and I hope I can benefit from it for later questions.

I will try now and work with your solution. 

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Michael Janik