Undo bug still there in Version 4 with latest Service Pack

Question

I have this bug since the first Version of Expression Web. Meanwhile I even changed form XP, to Vista to Windows 7. I tryed with Expression Web 1,2,3 and 4. It is there with all the new installations and versions. I did not have it in Frontpage 2003. I hoped that it will be gone with the latest Version. But no - nothing. I browsed all previous entries in forums. No solution. I love this programm but I can recomend to everybody to test it before buying it: Work with it a while and check if the Undo function is messed up. It is very anoying to work on a project and be put back 10 Steps pushing the Undo-Button instead of 1 step. 

Answer 1

Yes it is and it's been documented on Connect. I find that if you use the drop down for the initial undo it will normally work thereafter.

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Ian Haynes

EW - V4 Add-Ins
EW - Resources, hints and tips
EW - Design for the Mobile Web
expression(web.blog)

Answer 2

Thank you Ian. Hitting the "Undo Button" would be more comfortable but at least some kind of solution. Thank you very very much. (Edit: Or did you mean to just use the "Drop Down list" first and after that I can use the back button without a problem?)

By the way: I can not find it on connect (http://connect.microsoft.com/) searching for "Undo bug"

Answer 3

Yes, the drop down list first and then the undo button. As they say though, 'your mileage may vary'!

Some of the Connect bugs seem to drop off. It won't do any harm to post it again.

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Ian Haynes

EW - V4 Add-Ins
EW - Resources, hints and tips
EW - Design for the Mobile Web
expression(web.blog)

Answer 4

Thank you Ian for your support. 

I wrote now to connect. 

Do I have to push the drop down history each time before I want to use the undo button or just once in a session (e.g. at the beginning after I start the program)?

Answer 5

I use the drop down list if the normal icon doesn't undo. So may do it several times in a work session in the same instance of EW.

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Ian Haynes

EW - V4 Add-Ins
EW - Resources, hints and tips
EW - Design for the Mobile Web
expression(web.blog)

Answer 6

Thank you Ian. Very good to know. Let's see if this will handle it.

Answer 7

Well nothing helped. I read somewhere that it helps to uncheck the instant spelling but this just helped for a short time. So I got me finally the upgrade to Expression Web 4 and then I had the undo problem again - even with no instant spell check.  

I tryed Ian Haynes hint with the undo drop down menu. But this didn't help neither.

But what I discovered is that at one point the undo function stops to work and he is not recording anything anymore. No matter what I do. The recording function just crashes. I can go back to the point it crashed and redo to the point where I was (with one step). So let's say e.g. he puts me back 20 Steps and then in the drop down list the next step forward is the point where I stopped to work on the project. Nothing in between has been recorded. Last step ist then actually 20 Steps back and further it is normal (Step 21 back, 22 back, 23 back etc.)

I reported the issue on the 27. August to Connect but since then I got no answer. Very bad support. Shame on Microsoft. Shame on the programmers who couldn't find the mistake. Microsoft should really employ more competent people.

Answer 8

To be clear, nothing posted on Connect is a formal support request, and there is no guarantee of a reply or solution.   It's a hopper anyone can put information into, and is a way to let Microsoft know you are having a problem, but it's up to MS's team to prioritize their work using (or not) that information.

If you have a reproducible case, offering to send them all the information on your system setup, and a copy or your site files, might help, since if they can reproduce it they can chase it.  But that's still subject to their priority call.

Answer 9

This EW feature was added to encourage users not to make mistakes in the first place. Since I stopped making mistakes productivity here has taken a big jump.

Answer 10

This EW feature was added to encourage users not to make mistakes in the first place. Since I stopped making mistakes productivity here has taken a big jump.

Now that is amusing. FWIW, this one of those nasty intermittent bugs that only affect some users. The one and only time I ever had an undo bug was in one beta version. Because it was on a machine that I use for beta testing I flattened the computer, restored the OS from a clean back-up and installed EW again. No more undo bug even with the same beta version. Never had it on any other system or version and I've run every version of EW since the beta/ctp of v1 through the current version on systems ranging from XP to Win 8 (RC).

It would be lovely if MS could track it down and fix it but I wouldn't hold my breath.

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Free Expression Web Tutorials
For an Expression Web forum with without the posting issues try expressionwebforum.com

Answer 11

Heh, heh... ;)

Yeah, I have to admit that I've never run into this bug, and after reading your post, it occurred to me that I seldom ever find it necessary to use Undo to begin with.

I don't claim to be perfect, of course, but I do tend to be methodical, and to plan things out before executing them. Therefore, I very rarely ever find myself in a situation where I need to use Undo.

So, you may have hit the solution dead on the head—just don't screw up so that you need Undo...  ;-)

cheers,
scott

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Answer 12

FWIW, my most common use for "undo" is when I'm creating a tutorial and I want to repeat a step I did for screen shots or video.

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Free Expression Web Tutorials
For an Expression Web forum with without the posting issues try expressionwebforum.com

Answer 13

@Time Bandit 
very funny. But unfortunately I use it very often.  I guess many of those who want to use it will not buy this product when experiencing it in the evaluation period. 

@paladyn
I installed it on different windows systems XP, Vista and now Windows 7 and with different versions. I have Expression Web, Expression Web 3 and now Expression Web 4. I wonder if it has something to do with the fact that I have Frontpage 2003 previously installed. 

Answer 14

I also had FrontPage.   They are two separate programs so I doubt there is a connection. I don't have the undo bug as far as I can tell, but like Scott and Cheryl, I rarely need to use it.  Is it always the same site you are in, on all your installations?  Or does it happen on all sites? (Just curious.)

Answer 15

@paladyn
I installed it on different windows systems XP, Vista and now Windows 7 and with different versions. I have Expression Web, Expression Web 3 and now Expression Web 4. I wonder if it has something to do with the fact that I have Frontpage 2003 previously installed. 

It might, possibly, theoretically, maybe (but not likely ;-) have been a holdover of some kind from FP to EW at one time. However, beginning with EW3, all FP and Office code was pretty much purged from EW going forward. Granted, I've never had any version of FP on any of my systems since 2001, so I can't speak from knowledge certain, but I seriously doubt that there is a causal connection.

This has been an ongoing issue for some people since I started using EW with v.2. With every new version, there is a small complement of users who experience this issue, and a much larger group of users who do not, with no discernible predictive characteristics to determine who will fall into which category.

cheers,
scott

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Please remember to "Mark as Answer" the responses that resolved your issue. It is common courtesy to recognize those who have helped you, and it also makes it easier for visitors to find the resolution later.

Answer 16

@Kathy
No, it is with all the sites. Newly created once and older once.

@paladyn
How do you know that this problem occurs with a small number of people? Do you have an insight into the stats? I think if you keep hearing the problem again and again over the years that it might be many people. 

I think they should employ a different programmer because the last one is not competent enough to solve this issue (with this CORE FEATURE).

Just imagine you want to compare two pictures. You need the undo and redo function. Just imagine you made search and replace in the source code and can not reverse it. Then you have a big problem. 

Answer 17

Direct stats, no paladyn doesn't but we do know how often the problem crops up and the responses to make an educated guess. Between the folks who have responded in those threads, my students, other people I work with only 2 out 400 have ever experienced the undo bug on anything that wasn't beta. Not one of the systems have the same hardware and software environment. If the undo bug was common then I would have expected to see more than .5% of those 400 computers exhibit the problem. Of the 2, one did not experience it after moving from Vista to Win 7 via reformatting the hard drive and doing a clean install. That gave them new drivers and probably some change in the installed software programs beyond just a new OS.

Unlike paladyn and Kathy, I have talked to developers on the Expression Web team about it back when I was an MVP and was on the Microsoft campus. The bug is quite frustrating to them because they cannot reproduce it AND I was told that even though the bug only hit a small subset of users the devs could not find what the folks who experienced it had in common. Particularly when they couldn't get it to happen at will.

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Free Expression Web Tutorials
For an Expression Web forum with without the posting issues try expressionwebforum.com

Answer 18

@Cherly

Thank you for your response. But I had this problem an 3 different systems with 3 different computers. I don't think it has anything to do with the OS or hardware drivers.

Answer 19

FWIW

@Michael Janik

I have also been caught out with the Expression Web 'undo' bug!
I've mentioned it in some of my previous posts. It's very unpredictable and gets you just when you don't need it...

I thought it was worth mentioning, as many of the regulars here don't seem to like to admit some people have issues with some of the features. I can also see why some that make it to this forum don't bother posting their problems as posters are often shot down! :P Which would explain why the stats aren't complete.

NB. I'm a big EW4 fan - but just wish a few niggles could be sorted! :)
[Undo Bug + English Spell Check for simple starters - not too much to ask...]

Answer 20

Badgerer,

"I thought it was worth mentioning, as many of the regulars here don't seem to like to admit some people have issues with some of the features. "

I don't understand your comment.  Did anyone claim Michael wasn't experiencing an undo bug?   The very first reply was "yes, it exists".  Is it rare?  Yes.  Read Cheryl's post: it is rare.  Her reply is not based on counting forum posts.  (If it were common, MS could have fixed it.)

Answer 21

Yes I did, I'm not sure you read mine though - as I mentioned I don't believe it's as rare as some think! :)

Answer 22

"As rare as some think" is a completely unquantified statement  (how rare, who thinks?), so can't be compared to anything.  :)

Answer 23

Michael,

Nobody and that includes Microsoft knows what causes the undo bug. If they did, it would be fixed. It happens in a very, very small percentage of systems but even if my experience with over 400 computers of .5% is smaller than the incidence in the wild by a factor of 10 that would still leave 95% of users not having the issue.

It is possible that there is something in your software setup that maybe a contributing factor since I have noticed that people who have the issue do seem to have it on all of their systems. Unfortunately, the folks I've spoken to at Microsoft have not been able to reproduce it. The other bug that has the same problem in tracking down what triggers it is selecting across table cells in design view.

Edit, hiring another programmer wouldn't fix the two bugs because MS can't replicate or find the trigger. EW has many more than one developer who worked on it.

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Free Expression Web Tutorials
For an Expression Web forum with without the posting issues try expressionwebforum.com

Answer 24

@paladyn
How do you know that this problem occurs with a small number of people? Do you have an insight into the stats? I think if you keep hearing the problem again and again over the years that it might be many people.

But that's just it. I've been here for four and a half years, and in that time only a few people have reported this issue. One of the things we've learned here is that folks who are satisfied and happy with the program don't often post here. The vast majority of the people who post here are those who have issues, and compared to the many thousands of copies of EW that have been sold, only a very few people have reported this issue over those years.

Given that there is really very little in the way of other places such reports may be made, we can assume that that small number we see here represents a fairly accurate estimate of the number of people experiencing the issue. Go ahead, look around the Web. Do you see anywhere else that this issue is reported with greater frequency? We can only presume, therefore, that the percentage of users we see here represents the percentage experiencing the problem, and that is a very small percentage indeed.

cheers,
scott

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Please remember to "Mark as Answer" the responses that resolved your issue. It is common courtesy to recognize those who have helped you, and it also makes it easier for visitors to find the resolution later.

Answer 25

I thought it was worth mentioning, as many of the regulars here don't seem to like to admit some people have issues with some of the features.

Horsepucky! No one here claimed that the issue doesn't exist, or denied that some people experience it. We do all that we can do under the circumstances—acknowledge that it exists for some users, state that we can do nothing about it, and recommend that they report it to those who might be able to do so.

It is not our fault that no common thread has been found, nor has MS been able to reproduce the bug, so no resolution has been found, but somehow we become the villains in your posts. Your posts are worse than useless, contributing nothing whatsoever, but managing to fit in a slam against the regular contributors in almost every post.

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Please remember to "Mark as Answer" the responses that resolved your issue. It is common courtesy to recognize those who have helped you, and it also makes it easier for visitors to find the resolution later.

Answer 26

"...many of the regulars here don't seem to like to admit some people have issues with some of the features."

Alright, Badgerer, that's enough. You are like a broken record with that claim. I defy you to support that statement with proof. Give us the exact links to posts where many regulars don't admit that some people have issues with some features.

You are completely twisting what we have said, and you need to stop it. That is not what we have said nor what we think. You are either lying deliberately or are insufficiently able to comprehend the written word. Those are the only two options.

Good, talented people have put in too many countless thousands of hours volunteering to have you waltz in here and troll like that. Do you have any idea how much effort has gone in to helping people over the years? The "regulars" have volunteered thousands of hours and received no compensation except for some useless points from MS. And nobody needs thankless, self-righteous little prigs judging them.

Earn some points--contribute something--see how much commitment it takes. And until you do, either prove what you said or shut up.

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Answer 27

Thank you everybody for the support. I will try to life with the problem by not using the undo button even though it is hard not to. 

By the way the Undo-Bug is mentioned quite often when you type in Google "Undo Bug Expression Web"

It is even mentioned in Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_Expression_Web

Answer 28

"By the way the Undo-Bug is mentioned quite often when you type in Google "Undo Bug Expression Web"

We know that. You are not telling us anything that we don't know. What you have to keep in perspective is how many thousands--hundreds of thousands--millions--of copies of Expression Web Microsoft has sold.

And if you search Undo Bug Expression Web, the vast, vast majority of those links are not about Expression Web at all. They are for other programs or other topics. By the third page of results, the majority of links are for other programs.

Have you tried using the keyboard shortcut for Undo  (Ctrl-Z) ? I seem to remember that some people who have the bug have found that it works better.

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Answer 29

@Michael I'm with you! :)
The reviews on Amazon (and elsewhere) also mention this problem.
#blinkers here...?!

@Bill
The tips I've read I believe mostly say 'not' to use CTRL-Z (which is what I do and get caught out) but use the toolbar instead?

Answer 30

Badgerer,

You keep missing the point.

"The reviews on Amazon (and elsewhere) also mention this problem.
#blinkers here...?!"

Blinkers?  Again, who said the problem doesn't exist?  But it does NOT affect most people.  Who will  post to a forum or post a review and say the undo is buggy?  Those who encounter the bug.  Who will post to a forum or post a review to say "the undo works!":  no one.  Why would they mention it?   You can't judge the frequency of a bug by how often it is mentioned in venues where the incentive or even a main purpose is to mention bugs. Read Cheryl's post again.  It's not a bug affecting most, as much as it is a frustrating one for those who encounter it (and for MS since they can't chase it).

Answer 31

Thanks for that Kathy - I guess I'm just unlucky!

Answer 32

I think when it is mentioned on amazon, in discussion boards, wikipedia and here a few times then Microsoft should take it more serious because it is harming their sales.

And I think those Bugs are another reason why Dreamweaver is selling so well. Just works better for the most number of people. At least there must be a reason why Dreamweaver is No.1 and not Expression Web, even though Microsofts Front Page had the lead once.

I guess Dreamweaver sells so well because you can do more things like adjusting your own short cuts, menus and other stuff.

Pitty - I would like to see EW being ahead of Dreamweaver in terms of sells.

Maybe Microsoft can hire Programmers that can actually find out why things are not working and without the lame excuse that they can not reproduce the Bug. Or hire Programmers that program the undo and redo routine in another way (with different methods)

Answer 33

Hi Mickael,

I've just found your Microsoft Connect item and added my vote:

Undo-Bug with Expression Web 4
http://connect.microsoft.com/Expression/feedback/details/759719/undo-bug-with-expression-web-4

I've added the link to help others that see this problem and find this thread to vote - it's not everyone I know, I know ;)

NB. I just had a quick look through your portfolio you've got some nice sites there!

Answer 34

Michael:

If you think Dreamweaver is better than EW, then use it. If you think Dreamweaver doesn't have its own bugs, then use it.

If you think Dreamweaver is perfect, you are wrong. Dead wrong.

Dreamweaver has its own set of problems; "buggy and unstable" is one review on Amazon. I use Dreamweaver, so do 3 othe people who have replied to this thread. And one of those people runs the largest independent Dreamweaver forum on the Web. We all know of Dreamweaver's own problems, so we don't need a lecture from you on the superiority of Dreamweaver.

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Answer 35

Michael, you have it backwards. Dreamweaver has been the de facto standard for professional web design software for more than a decade. In the professional market FrontPage was a joke. It was not taken seriously by professionals or by Macromedia or Adobe as a competitor. Expression Web on the other hand has made inroads into the professional market and is considered by professionals to be a professional quality program.

Funny enough I run a mail list of over 5,600 Dreamweaver users and I see a complaints there about either bugs or things that Adobe has done with Dreamweaver that make an undo bug that hits a few people seem the minor problem that it is. Dreamweaver is a good program but it isn't perfect anymore than Expression Web is perfect. I use both on a daily basis and have taught both.

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Answer 36

And I think those Bugs are another reason why Dreamweaver is selling so well. Just works better for the most number of people. At least there must be a reason why Dreamweaver is No.1 and not Expression Web, even though Microsofts Front Page had the lead once. 

I guess Dreamweaver sells so well because you can do more things like adjusting your own short cuts, menus and other stuff.

Pitty - I would like to see EW being ahead of Dreamweaver in terms of sells.

As mentioned, DW sells so well because it has been around the longest...and because of the other software the suites contain. Both Adobe and Microsoft have proven over the years that one doesn't need to build a better mouse trap to garner the most sales.

Before you go put your eggs in the DW basket, do spend some time on the Adobe DW forum. I think you'll find enough threads on there that leave you with the thought, "Maybe Adobe can hire Programmers that can actually find out why things are not working and without the lame excuse that they cannot reproduce the Bug."

I am also a DW user on the rare occasion I need to use it.

Take care, Mike

Answer 37

@MikeWenzloff

@Cheryl

@Bill

I have both programs too and because both have been bugy in my eyes I stayed with Frontpage 2003 so far and the results worked pretty well in old browsers and in newer once (this is what counts at the end). But now came the time I have to change the software because I see that some functions are pretty cool in EW and would make my work much easier. I want to stick with EW because I feel more home than with DW and I trust Microsoft that they will deal with the bugs. For me personal EW is the better program and thats why I am so passionate about getting solutions. Web designing is my daily work. I feed my family and pay my Ex-Wife with it :-) I want to work with EW. And I think I can somehow deal with the most bugs but the undo bug is really a big burden because I need the undo function very much. I would be very happy if this is solved.  

@Badgerer Thank you for your support and compliments :-)

@Cheryl: I am talking 8-16 years ago. From Frontpage 97 (from 1996). 

Answer 38

Michael,

If you need the undo functionality and the suggested workarounds don't work for you I'd suggest getting in the habit of saving frequently. Then you can revert to the last saved version without too much loss.

FWIW, it was possible to create standards compliant sites in FP - at least in the later (post 2000) versions but you couldn't do so by going clicky, clicky on the toolbars for all your presentation. Otherwise it tended to output bloated and/or IE specific code.

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Free Expression Web Tutorials
For an Expression Web forum with without the posting issues try expressionwebforum.com

Answer 39

@Cheryl
Thanks. I will do that. But it adds time to the workflow which is a pain in the ass. 

I do not intend to use Frontpage anymore. And I didn't do clicky clicky. I use CSS as well. And the code I got with Frontpage was fine with all the important browsers. Even the older versions which is not always the case with some of the "modern" code. 

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Michael Janik