No Blend 5 for SL5? The end of road for SL development?

Question

I've been hearing rumors about the death of SL over HTML5, and given Windows 8 with IE10 defaults to a mode that doesn't allow SL applications to run (gotta switch to "Desktop" mode as that is NOT the default).  Also, given that mobile devices, such as the iPhone's iOS and some Android devices don't support SL and never will support SL ... .

Then I see some rumor about SL5 working on iOS ... read deeper an one finds out that it's really NOT SL5 running on iOS but reality is that is automated transmuxing of video on the IIS server to be compatible with iOS.  This IS NOT SL5 working on iOS.

It appears that Microsoft have released an update for Blend 4 that will allow it to work with SL5.  However Blend 5 will NOT work with WPF or SL, only works with HTML5, CSS, JavaScript.  It would seem to me the picture Microsoft are painting here is that SL is a dead end road?

To say I'm "pissed off" is probably an understatement.

Answer 1

I'm not entirely sure what you're looking for. It sounds like you'd be interested in the Expression Blend Preview for Silverlight 5. If that's not what you want, please ask specific questions and we'll try to answer them as best we can.

http://www.microsoft.com/download/en/details.aspx?id=9503

Answer 2

I would think Blend 5 Final release would support both SL and HTML 5. My assumption is that there are separate groups working on BLENDHTML5 and BLENDWPF&SL and they will have to integrate before the final release. They have not integrated yet.

 

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Creativity Flows

Answer 3

Pissed off at Microsoft introducing something then abandoning it?

How new are you to Microsoft?

I assume you dont remember FrontPage, OLE, OLE2, Document/View, NetMeeting, etc etc etc etc ...................

Answer 4

"However Blend 5 will NOT work with WPF or SL, only works with HTML5, CSS, JavaScript."

 

If your question is targeted to the point, whether Expression Blend 5 is going to be a UI design tool to create metro style apps for Windows 8, I guess, your above quoted assumption is not correct. As fare as I understood the information provided by Microsoft, there will be at least two different alternative ways in order to build windows 8 metro style apps.

1st is using HTML5, CSS and JavaScript.

2nd is to create metro style apps using XAML, C++, C# and VB.

The documentation for the second alternative seems to suggest that Expression Blend is going to be provided as a design tool to create UI for windows 8 metro style apps. If you take a look at the documentation I linked to, you will notice that there are source code snippets with xaml like the following:

<UserControl x:Class="WindowsBlogReader.SplitPage"
    xmlns="http://schemas.microsoft.com/winfx/2006/xaml/presentation"
    xmlns:x="http://schemas.microsoft.com/winfx/2006/xaml"
<strong>    xmlns:d="http://schemas.microsoft.com/expression/blend/2008"
</strong>    xmlns:mc="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/markup-compatibility/2006"
    Loaded="Page_Loaded" Unloaded="Page_Unloaded"
    <strong>mc:Ignorable="d"
    d:DesignWidth="1366" d:DesignHeight="768"</strong>>

Or:

' Visual Basic
Public Shared Sub ShowDetail(collection As IEnumerable(Of Object), item As Object)
    Dim page As New DetailPage()
    If _sampleData Is Nothing Then _sampleData = _
<strong>       New Expression.Blend.SampleData.SampleDataSource.SampleDataSource(page.BaseUri)
</strong>    page.Items = collection
    page.Item = item
    Window.Current.Content = page
End Sub

So it is likely that Microsoft is currently working on the Expression Blend templates, that will provide the ability to use Blend as a design tool in order to build metro style apps using XAML with C++, C# or VB. For Visual Studio 11 there allready are such templates. And whether the likely upcoming new Blend templates will be build for Blend version 4 or version 5, isn't important in my opinion.

Regarding the rumors you mentioned about a propable death of silverlight over htmls 5: I guess you will have to differentiate. Everything I am reading says to me, that Microsoft is still working on the final version of silverlight 5. So in my opinion, Silverlight 5 final will be there is the near future. But the task of Silverlight is not to display metro style apps, and the tools to build silverlight apps (Blend and VS) doesn't exist to build metro style apps in silverlight. But that doesn't exclude, that the tools (Blend and VS) will provide templates with which we are going to be able to build metro style apps. Silverlight has ever been a browser plugin technology. As such, Silverlight 5 competes or will compete with HTML5, CSS and JavaScript as two different technologies to display rich content in the browser. And I can not imagine that, concerning this, there will be a difference in the future.

BTW: Where did you get the rumors from, you mentioned?

Answer 5

Martin,

I have no interest in "Metro Style" apps, my primary interest is SL5 for Business applications. 

Information sources are from Microsoft -- see Blend Preview for SL5 http://www.microsoft.com/download/en/details.aspx?id=9503.  Take a look at the version number for Blend 4.1.1xxx ... this is NOT Blend 5.  This is a modified version of Blend 4 to support SL5. 

Expression Blend 5 for Windows Developer Preview is a true Version 5.x of Blend (not a 4.1.xx) and only supports HTML5, CSS, JavaScript ... it does NOT support XAML (WPF nor Silverlight).  Info http://blendinsider.com/news/build-html-5-apps-with-expression-blend-for-windows-developer-preview-2011-09-14/

And finally, show me a single reference to SL6?  SL5 is due out before year end so they've long been into "wrapping it up stage" and if an SL6 were to exist it would have already completed design/feature specification but not a single mention of SL6 anywhere ... do a search, if you find anyone even hinting SL6 has been spec'd or is on a Microsoft road map for release, then please share that source.

SL5 will not work on iOS and only works on Windows Phone 7 which Ballmer has admitted isn't successful and "disappointing".  But HTML5 does worlk on these mobile devices.

So based on the above information it's pretty obvious that it's end of road after SL5 is officially released.  And with Blend 5 (the real version 5) Microsoft appear to be focused on HTML5.

Sorry but SL is a dead end ... all the signs are there that SL5 is end of road.  Which is a real bummer because SL5 has almost everything I want with OOB (no forward/back in browser which has to be the worst UI concept ever) full trust and a user friendly environment that works well for full scale business applications.  But with NO iOS support (and blame Apple for this, but it is what it is) and other mobile device support it's missing a KEY feature.  So rather than make SL6 work with iOS, it appears Microsoft are yet again suggesting we learn yet another technology HTML5 and the rebirth of JavaScript and CSS.

My only hope is that Microsoft provide some automated migration tool that will convert SL5 projects over to HTML5 projects WITHOUT requiring a ton of work on my part ... but that's unlikely to happen given Microsoft history where they never really thought about "migration" and just keep pushing out "new technology" telling everyone that we need to scrap all our existing work or start over from "new".  A philosophy that just doesn't sit well with my needs ... believe it or not I actually have a progression path for my products/applications that doesn't include having to learn a new flavor of development every couple years just because project managers at Microsoft IGNORE migration paths.

So yeah, pissed, frustrated, and often wonder why I even bother using Microsoft development tools at all.

Rob

 

Answer 6

Quoting Steve White from another thread you were involved with:

http://social.expression.microsoft.com/Forums/en-US/blend/thread/d5b6d33e-bed0-48af-bfda-252877994f0d/

"It was announced at //BUILD/ that Blend will continue to be a xaml platform tool, just 'not yet'."

Answer 7

In fairness To Microsoft, FrontPage was pretty out-dated and generally bad, and something which was really replaced by the likes of Dreamweaver. OLE(2) has been replaced, as far as I'm aware (I may be completely wrong) with a totally new, and much-improved system. NetMeeting? Loads of more modern equivalents. And so on. I can appreciate where you're at, seeing as I regularly mourn the loss of managed DirectX (XNA is hopeless for non-game applications). But that's the only thing I can think of, and not really many people used it where they wouldn't have with XNA.

Answer 8

Is there an estimated date for the Blend 5 Release?

Answer 9

A few months late on this ... I'm pretty sure there will be no Blend 5.  I stopped using Blend because of the code (XAML) it generates and it was just too slow (even on a very powerful computer).  It looks like VS 11 is going to be native 64bit (finally) so if Microsoft were smart, then would dump the cost and headache of having two products that do the same activity and combine them into a single product (aka VS 11) -- the 64bit address space should give them plenty of room to do this.

I'm not exactly sure who's been feeding Microsoft the "Design" vs. "Code" should be separated "cool-aid", but clearly those folks appear to have that "luxury" that most other software companies don't.  But in either case, a simple VS 11 UI template could solve the problem of having a UI for designers only vs. a UI for those that code business logic (web services) and back end vs. those that do both (like me) -- keeping a single product (this is how it's handle in other applications, one application multiple UI templates).

But I can assure you, the code (XAML) that Blend creates is HORRIBLE!  It's incredibly inefficient and will quickly bloat a project and slow it down to a crawl.

Microsoft have dropped SL5 like a hot potato ... no body seems to be discussing it much and you'll be lucky to get any responses in the SL forums (empty void).  Everyone appears to be jumping on HTML5, which is unfortunate because HTML5 clearly can't do things SL5 can ... such as "full" access to a client's local storage (HTML5 is partial access only like it was in SL4) and no OOB in HTML5 which again is a HUGE issue for me ... who can afford to support all the Browser combinations???  OOB is a MUST have for anyone writing business applications that doesn't want to spend the rest of their life supporting end user Browser issues.

Anyway, once again Microsoft drops the ball THEY started and moves in another direction.  At least SL5 is supported in Win 8 desktop mode and given HTML5's current limitations I can't see it surviving too long except for brain dead applications that don't do much.  The smart approach from Microsoft would have been to develop SL6 so that it can be configured to require a "plug-in" (keeping all the power and flexibility of that approach) or configured to run without a "plug-in" -- but that would have been the smart thing to do and the PO's at Microsoft don't appear to be very smart about "direction" only about how to ensure they get a nice bonus for rushing a "new world order" to market quickly even if only 70% done.  That's the Microsoft way.

 Rob.

Answer 10

hmmm,

frontpage 98 or 2000 is well known version.

And at this time, Dreameaver 4,MX,MX 2004 really beat Frontpage.

I think not much people know the latest version of frontpage is 2003, so it is right time to abandon the next version.

But now, from Visual web developer 2005 to VS for web 2012.

I am glad to see Microsoft make a great , FREE wysiwyg html editor to everyone (web designer or programmer)

Anyways, Frontpage is classic, it help me to build up my interest on web design when i was 18 years old. I love it.

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My Blog : http://tatmingstudio.blogspot.hk/

Answer 11

Will Blend for SL 5 ever get out of Preview ?
Or we are really doomed with the ugly VS designer ?
Doing animation and great apps is 80% faster and easier in Blend than in VS !<

Answer 12

Good news:

http://blendinsider.com/technical/announcing-visual-studio-2012-update-2-ctp-2013-01-30/

http://blogs.msdn.com/b/bharry/archive/2013/01/30/announcing-visual-studio-2012-update-2-vs2012-2.aspx

Also, in case you didn't know, the same team and technology is behind both Blend and the designer in VS.

Answer 13

The Expression Blend will be integrate to Visual Studio 2012 update 2 and free for use.

I don't worry about blend , but i worry about future of silverlight since http://www.sliverlight.net is migrate to MSDN.

In my opinion, silverlight 5 is really flash killer because the new PathListBox control.

It easy to create motion guide animation.

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My Blog : http://tatmingstudio.blogspot.hk/

Answer 14

I take it that this is going to be the way forward for anyone currently using the Blend Preview for Silverlight 5 on VS 2010?

Answer 15

Details here:

http://www.microsoft.com/expression/

See the section on Expression Blend.

Answer 16

What is the upgrade path for Expression Studio Ultimate?  How does one get to VS2012 now that Expression Blend has been rolled into VS2012 and terminated in all other product releases?  Why has marketing at Microsoft changed course and how does this course change jive with previous product offering promises?  How does one get past the dead end that is Expression Studio Ultimate v4?

Answer 17

I forwarded your other question on to someone who can hopefully answer it for you earlier this morning. I'm not in a position to answer those questions (I'm a developer on the Blend team).

Answer 18

The Expression Blend will be integrate to Visual Studio 2012 update 2 and free for use.

I don't worry about blend , but i worry about future of silverlight since http://www.sliverlight.net is migrate to MSDN.

In my opinion, silverlight 5 is really flash killer because the new PathListBox control.

It easy to create motion guide animation.

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My Blog : http://tatmingstudio.blogspot.hk/

Don't worry.  Silverlight is alive and is going to be there for a long time. Enjoy !

Answer 19

Awesome.  At last I just have one Blend and it suppots Silverlight.  What a breeze to right click your xaml in VS 2012 and open in blend which now works....
I can't thanx enough the team working on it....

Answer 20

Ops I just lost my precious OPEN IN BLEND option in VS 2012.  Where it is ?
What I did is unstalled all previous Blend version keeping only Blend for VS 2012

Please advise

Answer 21

Ah, well, Maybe I did uninstall too much.  I did a REPAIR on the Blend  + Sketchflow Preview for VS 2012 and it solved the problem.

Answer 22

Me again :)

Weird, I have full of errors on my existing project about PathListBox not being found.
Don't know what that means yet.  Investigating...