What do you think about the Microsoft BizTalk certification?
- My opinion is this certification is a GOOD point, it really means real knowledge.
Why? Why I'm thinking so exactly about the Microsoft BizTalk certification not others Microsoft certifications?
Because of the TestKing and brain dumps. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brain_dump)
Try to find the BizTalk exams [74-135, 70–235] in http://www.mcsebraindumps.net.
Don't find it? It means a very good thing because if you had found it that means the exam would worth absolutely nothing.
Now, in April 2008 we are lucky, we have a good, very good measurement for the BizTalk developers, it's the BizTalk certificate.Guys, what do you think about it?
All Replies
I think it is a good measure of knowledge and some experience. With so many BizTalk releases, questions age very quickly. When I got certified before R2, you could still see some BizTalk 2004 questions that had not been updated for 2006. With the upcoming R3 release and the product refreshes ongoing for .NET 3, the range of product knowledge is very large. It might be smart to split the exam into one for general admin and configuration and one for adapter experience to provide further specialization options. I also think it would be a good idea to have an MCA specialization for BizTalk because there is a considerable amount of design required for it.
I always think the best way to block brain dumps is simulations. I think the BizTalk certification test would do well to have simulations as well because there are so many different tools and some well-worn task patterns to do in BizTalk that a BizTalk admin or developer should know. Overall, I think the tests are pretty rigorous and provide a good sampling of required BizTalk skills.
Thanks,
- Hi Ben,Good point about splitting exam. My feeling is the BizTalk administration, operations, installation, tuning up and deployment is far away from the BizTalk development. It is like system administrator and developer role. Maybe deployment is the common area for those two.BTW What about splitting the BizTalk development and solution architecture?Thanks
Actually I have to disagree with you here
I toke my BizTalk MCP few weeks ago!!
I am working with BizTalk projects since 2004,
And I take my exam just to meet my old company policy!
I reviewed my knowledge for something about a week, before the exam .. (it was a good review )
.. just to test if I was ready for the exam … I made a simple search on google , and I got one-pdf file with 50 question regarding BizTalk MCP
I made the test , with 7-mistakes .. mostly related to the BAM
Anyway … I was happy with the result , I did review few concepts for the BAM
And I went to the exam … I found 45 question repeated from my single pdf in the official exam !! !
That drives me crazy!! I really get depressed!! .. They do not have pool of question!!
This is too bad …
After that I underside all MCP Exams can be passed with full marks using test-kings
Hey !! this is really too much … I was not a big fan of Exams , but I am a big enemy for them now !!That is sad news, I was going to take the exam in few months. Now, it is useless.
Whether or not brain dumps exist is actually not a measure of the exam's success or failure. It is up to the test taker to decide not to look at the brain dumps. The question pool does get updated from time to time. It usually takes only once to determine if a test question vendor has brain dumps or legitimite questions and I understand that some companies are very misleading about whether they are using brain dumps. Sorry you were duped. Test King is definitely using brain dumps so if you want to avoid brain dumps then avoid Test King. You might search the web for whether a company is a brain dump before buying it.
Good luck searching for real questions,
Amjad Manasra wrote: Actually I have to disagree with you here
I toke my BizTalk MCP few weeks ago!!
I am working with BizTalk projects since 2004,
And I take my exam just to meet my old company policy!
I reviewed my knowledge for something about a week, before the exam .. (it was a good review )
.. just to test if I was ready for the exam … I made a simple search on google , and I got one-pdf file with 50 question regarding BizTalk MCP
I made the test , with 7-mistakes .. mostly related to the BAM
Anyway … I was happy with the result , I did review few concepts for the BAM
And I went to the exam … I found 45 question repeated from my single pdf in the official exam !! !
That drives me crazy!! I really get depressed!! .. They do not have pool of question!!
This is too bad …
After that I underside all MCP Exams can be passed with full marks using test-kings
Hey !! this is really too much … I was not a big fan of Exams , but I am a big enemy for them now !!OMG!Bad news!Hey, MSFT guys! Do you know how to google? Is it sacred knowledge? Why do you think nobody can google?Seems the questions from MS Exams go open in Internet in 2-3 months after they appeared at exams first time. I don't care how expensive is it to change these questions on regular basis. Make exams more expensive if this is about money, but right now my exam money just dumped!Ben Cline wrote: Whether or not brain dumps exist is actually not a measure of the exam's success or failure. It is up to the test taker to decide not to look at the brain dumps. The question pool does get updated from time to time. It usually takes only once to determine if a test question vendor has brain dumps or legitimite questions and I understand that some companies are very misleading about whether they are using brain dumps. Sorry you were duped. Test King is definitely using brain dumps so if you want to avoid brain dumps then avoid Test King. You might search the web for whether a company is a brain dump before buying it.
Good luck searching for real questions,
IMHODo we need to avoid to use braindums in our exam preparations when we know about braindums ? Nope.We just need to avoid this certification.I need Certificate not to get knowledge. I'd rather spent my time more productive than preparing for exam.I need Certificate for employer only. No more, no less."Whether or not brain dumps exist is actually not a measure of the exam's success or failure." - ?? Disagree.If (braindumps.Exist) {Certificate.Value = null;Certificate.IsHelpfull = false;}Ben, the certificate is not about my knowledge when there are braindumps for this certificate exam. Period.The certificate is worth absolutely nothing when there are braindumps for this certificate exam. Period.
Its helpful to have balance in understanding the "value" of certification. Certification is only ONE way of verifying knowledge and skills, as any good recruiter knows. You always need to check someone's references and experience and make sure they can actually do what their certification says they can do. A recruiter can determine the authenticity of a certification in many ways.
I know that Microsoft is not "in the dark" about the realities of certification and the fact that many people cheat. I think that many recruiters also know that people cheat on exams. This is unfortunately one of the reasons that certifications have lost some value. But it is the burden of the test taker to comply with the exam regulations and to not read the brain dumps. So the exam is valid and valuable if you are honest and are trustworthy. A certification will only hold as much authenticity or value as the person who earned it. I often find that people who cheat by reading brain dumps value the certifications the least.
So in summary, I would not try to look at the certification like an accreditation but more like a badge of honor or a feather in your hat. It is a plus but not necessarily an end-all benchmark for skills. If you disagree, answer this next question: Would you rather hire an MVP in BizTalk or an MCTS in BizTalk and why?
I still think the certificate is for our employer , and it add no real value for the one who take it .. “in the best cases it only document your knowledge” .. anyway I will try to answer your question here
"Would you rather hire an MVP in BizTalk or an MCTS in BizTalk and why?"
I do respect the 2-titles but ,
usually I consider MVP has more experience with real life scenarios of BizTalk ,
I know, many MCTS has this kind of experience too .. but let’s assume we are comparing between MCTS who did nothing else training MCP exams, and MVP.
BizTalk Development is about those points :
Trouble Shooting and Testing: be familiar with Errors and problems of BizTalk Server “this need experience” , so the MVP better in this area
Best Practices : there is a common best practices can be found in articles and blogs , this kind of knowledge is available for the MVP , and the MCTS.. but I still think with years of experience each developer will enhance this practices and develop his own best practices .. so once again this point will be for the MVP too
Good Design concepts : this one is very important , and it require High knowledge with BizTalk power and components .. this is more academic thing .. I think MCTS is equal with MVP in this point.
The most important thing here .. I will look not for the MVP , MCTS titles , but I will look for his experience …
I believe; if MVP and MCTS share the same type of experience .. there is nothing can help me to choose one of them over the other … “okie I will go with the MVP , he give a better image in front of my clients 
”
Hey ppl … I will be MCTS soon .. so please MCTS ppl “I am one of you ”
| Ben Cline wrote: | |
|
Let's assume you've got the Medal of Honor and then realise you could buy this medal for several bucks on each corner and all rear service rats usually wear these fake medals. Are you going to put on this medal to display your bravery?
| Ben Cline wrote: | |
|
IMHO
To determine the authenticity of a certificate just visit the transcript of it on the Microsoft site.
but
If (certificate != knowledge)
no reason to do it.
If (certificate != knowledge AND recruter needs to know knowledge.size)
The only way to determine the BizTalk knowledge is to interview the person with BizTalk specialist.
During TechEd, I went to a session on the forensics and exam security techniques Microsoft is currently using for reducing exam fraud. It was good to hear that Microsoft is doing a lot to curb brain dump generation and it opened my eyes to some of the problems that exist in certain places of the world. So although brain dumps exist out there, it is important to know that Microsoft is actively pursuing organizations that create them. Here is my blog post on some of the topics covered in the TechEd session: http://msinnovations.spaces.live.com/blog/cns!62E68922E47BC425!211.entry.
Thanks,
| Ben Cline wrote: | |
|
I am sorry to say but the 70-235 exam is so easy and general that will never reflect the real BizTalk knowledge of someone nor be used as a “must employ” by a recruiter. The majority of the new exams are like that. All you need is to read the Self Paced Book from Microsoft, do the labs and the exam is yours.
I stopped taking Microsoft exams because of that and because I saw junior developers (fist job and no .Net programming ever) that took 1000 points on a .Net Framework exam and have no clue about how to use an abstract class (required knowledge about that exam).
I stronlgy believe that Microsoft has to strenghten the MCTS exams and transform the MPCD exams to be like the MCA exam (interview, proof of projects and stuff).
| Radu Enuca wrote: | |
|
Now they could get several additional bucks that passed to the Certificate centers before. Let's pay them for job interviews.When you get someone in to work for you, and they have a degree, do you just believe them, or actually ask them about it, and the experience that they have applying it?
Certification isn't a shortcut to not interviewing somebody, but if it gets you in the door, or gets you airtime to be interviewed, then in the interview you prove to be a good developer which backs up the certification, then paying more for that person is fine by me. I would not seek someone based only on whether they had a certification, but if there were two very similar candidates, and one had a cert and one didn't, then I would go for the one with, then I get partner points, and benefits, which helps the whole team. By this point I have already validated that this person is probably good at what they say they are good at. That certification would probably help them to be shortlisted if the certification is supported by experience that would indicate that they do actually have the knowledge.
Those certs still are good, people abuse them by cheating, but when they can't do the job they get because they cheated, who are they really cheating? They'd get the sack immediately...
Please, get some balance with the argument!!
Martin.
MCSD, MCTS, MCPD. Please mark my post as helpful if you find the information good!
I had pages and pages of exam notes and spent X number of hours on practice exams (using SelfTest software) to get my MCTS.
I feel ripped off..
That being said though, I think the SelfTest practice exams were much harder than the real exam. Plus it provides explanations and stuff which is great.
So in my experience, I think the actual process of getting ready for the certification is the most important because thats how I knew about all the BizTalk stuff that I never used before (BAM, role links, etc...)
I am studying for the 70-235 now.
I am reading the 2933a book back and forth and doing the "14 day to certification diary" that I found online.
You know who knows what they are talking about and who braindumped.
Talking about Biztalk is not fakable.
Mark Rowe HL7/EDI/ESB IRC: chat.freenode.net Room:##BizTalk
Wait. You guys mean to tell me theres this web site where you can get the real exams beforehand??Hi Trevor,
I had pages and pages of exam notes and spent X number of hours on practice exams (using SelfTest software) to get my MCTS.
I feel ripped off..
That being said though, I think the SelfTest practice exams were much harder than the real exam. Plus it provides explanations and stuff which is great.
So in my experience, I think the actual process of getting ready for the certification is the most important because thats how I knew about all the BizTalk stuff that I never used before (BAM, role links, etc...)
Yeah, that is sad.
I think the requirement for candidates should be NOT "MS certification" but "MS courses". You cannt fake the "taking courses", or you can? Anyway it is not so easy as fake an exam right now.
We don't have other way now to filter a real BTS developers but interview with good BTS Dev (working as a Filter :) ).
Leonid Ganeline [BizTalk MVP] My BizTalk blog
I do have the "Course Certificate" though lol.
Mark Rowe HL7/EDI/ESB IRC: chat.freenode.net Room:##BizTalk
I would've loved to buy the cbt 2933a class on cd since it states it prepares you for the exams but it isn't developed yet. I found an exploring biztalk class by appdev but I read through a foundation & advanced book by apress and something tells me that I'll probably be disappointed with spending $700 on cds that I'm assuming won't be as good as going through the pro book and actual practice in a VM. What do you think?
Interesting topic and I would like to participate in this. I had my BizTalk Exam 70-235 in June 2008 and I passed with 830 Score. I gave the certification without reading any brain dumps and I made a few mistakes in questions about BAM. The questions were overall good but after 2-3 months my Bank hired 5 new BizTalk developers and after 3 months each of them scored 1000/1000. I was astonished to see that, then they showed me the Brain Dumps and they were the same Questions with the same Answers and options.
I was really depressed to see this because this was an achievement for me at that time and it was ruined after seeing that this was very cheap. They didn't even buy the dumps they downloaded free from Google.
I would agree with Ben that BizTalk is a large product and everyone has different roles in it. Their might be an architect who implements the BizTalk servers in an Organization according to their needs. A developer who develops solutions and has a good experience with all the tools. Their might be an Administrator to do all the administration tasks. So the certification exams must be distributed according to the roles. Plus I would say that simple 50 questions didn't cover the whole product. There should be some simulations and real time scenarios asked in the questions.
I would say that the product is very vast and its certification test is not upto the mark.
Abdul Rafay http://abdulrafaysbiztalk.wordpress.com/ Please mark this answer if it helps
I must say myself and all my coworkers took the 2933a class and we would have scored a 10% or less on the test. It took me almost am month after that class to get my first SQL pull working because I couldn't figure out why the elements didn't match up (the receive location NS and Root Element)
I do have the "Course Certificate" though lol.
Mark Rowe HL7/EDI/ESB IRC: chat.freenode.net Room:##BizTalk
That is a pity. I never took couses but read the book "MCTS Self-Paced Training Kit (Exam 70-503): Microsoft .NET Framework 3.5 Windows Communication Foundation (PRO-Certification)" http://geekswithblogs.net/LeonidGaneline/archive/2008/10/15/review-mcts-self-paced-training-kit-exam-70-503-microsoft-.net-framework.aspx
Not the BizTalk but the WCF but anyway this book was good addition to my WCF knowledge. Not skills but knowledge! I think the same about courses. You cannot get skils on courses only on real development work. But you definitely get some basic knowledge. Not at all with (braindumps --> exam --> certificate).
Leonid Ganeline [BizTalk MVP] My BizTalk blog
Hi Guys,Hi Abdul,
Interesting topic and I would like to participate in this. I had my BizTalk Exam 70-235 in June 2008 and I passed with 830 Score. I gave the certification without reading any brain dumps and I made a few mistakes in questions about BAM. The questions were overall good but after 2-3 months my Bank hired 5 new BizTalk developers and after 3 months each of them scored 1000/1000. I was astonished to see that, then they showed me the Brain Dumps and they were the same Questions with the same Answers and options.
I was really depressed to see this because this was an achievement for me at that time and it was ruined after seeing that this was very cheap. They didn't even buy the dumps they downloaded free from Google.
I would agree with Ben that BizTalk is a large product and everyone has different roles in it. Their might be an architect who implements the BizTalk servers in an Organization according to their needs. A developer who develops solutions and has a good experience with all the tools. Their might be an Administrator to do all the administration tasks. So the certification exams must be distributed according to the roles. Plus I would say that simple 50 questions didn't cover the whole product. There should be some simulations and real time scenarios asked in the questions.
I would say that the product is very vast and its certification test is not upto the mark.
Abdul Rafay http://abdulrafaysbiztalk.wordpress.com/ Please mark this answer if it helps
Let's separate your thread to two parts:
1. It is easy to get a braindump and fake a BizTalk exam. Do you agree this makes MCFT Certificate = Zero?
2. If MSFT created new exams (without braindumps), we need three exams: BizTalk Architecture, BizTalk Development, BizTalk Administration. I totally agree with you.
Leonid Ganeline [BizTalk MVP] My BizTalk blog
Yes Leonid I would suggest MSFT that there should be three exams related to BizTalk. Regarding the MCFT certificate, after going through the exam I thought it was tough and tricky and I really judged myself where I stand and where I need to improve. But faking any exam wouldn't make the exam zero but the participant is making a bad name for himself in the industry and of course hurting the other guys who have earned the certification with their hard work. I would like to give my university example like people who studied would never cheat in the exams but some students try to cheat and get through the exams. In this way we can't blame the exam but the way it was taken. It shouldn't give any corner to the people who want to cheat and pass.
The same way I won't say that MCFT certification is zero but if the braindumps are available and MSFT would give the same questions, I would say 90% of the people would cheat in the exams. Here I would like to add about CISCO certifications. Its all about simulations and knowledge and you get new questions and scenarios so there is no way to cheat in the exams.
I would suggest that MSFT can improve the exams with the same. I still see in the industry that many recruiters value MSFT certifications but still do not 100% rely on them. Even when I conduct interviews I have seen some candidates with 4-5 certifications but their knowledge disproved them. Therefore in this case the MSFT certifications lose their credibility whereas being certified means that MSFT verifies that the person is knowledgeable and is a Technology specialist in the field.
Abdul Rafay http://abdulrafaysbiztalk.wordpress.com/ Please mark this answer if it helps
