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Windows 8 apps going html5, wtf - part 2

    Question

  • In response to http://forums.silverlight.net/forums/t/230502.aspx.

    This was shut down to trolling activity? Fair enough... but guess what... this is 2011 and us developers are louder than ever. (this is a good thing).

    The OP in the above post was dead on.

    Is silvelright/wpf (the natural progression for windows development) being marginalized by an oh so trendy markup and browser scripting language? Is windows development going DHTML? Or will Silverlight/Wpf be first class citizens?

    So, the people have spoken, msft, what's the answer?

    (signed, proud .net developer)

    Friday, June 03, 2011 3:46 PM

All replies

  • As stated in the previous thread

    • None of us at Microsoft can say anything until //build/ in September. No one likes that, including me. That's all we can do, however.
    • Speculation from people outside of Microsoft is just that, speculation. I know it's going to happen, but keep in mind that it's probably not correct.
    • This thread needs to stay civil, and keep the flamebait and trolling out. I'm especially watching people who just joined the Silverlight.net community in the past day.
    • Be respectful, and don't give bile a permalink.

    Pete

     

     

    Friday, June 03, 2011 3:54 PM
  • I mean, come on, how to call KINECT APIs inside a H5/JS programs? Are they gonna add private "EEE-stylle" tags to H5 for that purpose? No gonna work.
    It's already done. Bing it.
    We will see later this year/next year if MS has managed to write Excel or Powerpoint in HTML5+JavaScript.
    Done: http://office.microsoft.com/web-apps/
    Try to write a C# compiler (or a javascript interpreter when you feel C# is really no longer needed) in HTML5+javascript.
    Done and done, see earlier in thread and
    http://jsc.sourceforge.net/
    http://michaelsync.net/2007/10/29/script-c-to-javascript-converter
    Here's a tool that converts C/C++/Objective C source code to JS
    http://emscripten.org
    Here's a tool that converts any OpenGL / OpenAL based game to HTML5
    http://www.mandreel.com/
    You can even build virtual machines that run native code on JS, here's a linux running in the browser:
    http://bellard.org/jslinux/
    As for the SQL server, etc, there's NodeJS that is just the ideal platform for servers, you can forget about the browser inconsistencies there, and don't worry, they're porting it to Windows.
    So there's no reason for the trash talk on JS.
    I suggest we declare truce with the language wars here, and focus on our work, like Pete said.
    I think you'll find that HTML5 being a first class citizen in W8, HTML5 + Silverlight is a good place to be, and as for the strong leader thing, I think MSFT is showing exactly that with this. I understand you're worried about your livelihood, but no one is asking you to give up anything, you can still live with the comforts of C# and SL. In one case you'll just be compiling to JavaScript, but hey, that's the life we chose as programmers, but in the other you can keep doing it as you were. But one thing is for sure, no one can destroy SL, you can keep using it 'til the world ends even if MSFT throws in the towel, which is highly unlikely.

    I mean, come on, how to call KINECT APIs inside a H5/JS programs? Are they gonna add private "EEE-stylle" tags to H5 for that purpose? No gonna work.


    It's already done. Bing it.


    We will see later this year/next year if MS has managed to write Excel or Powerpoint in HTML5+JavaScript.


    Done: http://office.microsoft.com/web-apps/


    Try to write a C# compiler (or a javascript interpreter when you feel C# is really no longer needed) in HTML5+javascript.


    Done and done, see earlier in thread and

    http://jsc.sourceforge.net/

    http://michaelsync.net/2007/10/29/script-c-to-javascript-converter


    Here's a tool that converts C/C++/Objective C source code to JS

    http://emscripten.org


    Here's a tool that converts any OpenGL / OpenAL based game to HTML5

    http://www.mandreel.com/


    You can even build virtual machines that run native code on JS, here's a linux running in the browser:

    http://bellard.org/jslinux/


    As for the SQL server, etc, there's NodeJS that is just the ideal platform for servers, you can forget about the browser inconsistencies there, and don't worry, they're porting it to Windows.


    So there's no reason for the trash talk on JS.


    I suggest we declare truce with the language wars here, and focus on our work, like Pete said.


    I think you'll find that HTML5 being a first class citizen in W8, HTML5 + Silverlight is a good place to be, and as for the strong leader thing, I think MSFT is showing exactly that with this. I understand you're worried about your livelihood, but no one is asking you to give up anything, you can still live with the comforts of C# and SL. In one case you'll just be compiling to JavaScript, but hey, that's the life we chose as programmers, but in the other you can keep doing it as you were. But one thing is for sure, no one can destroy SL, you can keep using it 'til the world ends even if MSFT throws in the towel, which is highly unlikely. Especially if this group holds the act together, and keeps developing great applications on it.

    Friday, June 03, 2011 3:56 PM
  • Fair enough. If anything... you have to admit... this response was amazing.

    If at any time MSFT was to gauge the interest in silverlight/wpf interest, 5.5MIL+ views should be eye opening.

    Silverlight, for me, and those whom I train, the 'a-ha' moment. We have spent years with bubble gum and tape (html/js) and the thought of going back to this world would be heart breaking for more people than you realize.

    Can't tell you how many times us devs wished that MSFT would remain unified, tie it all together.

    The story would have been ground breaking to us silverlight/wpf devs if you just came out and said. "Your apps you build today, will be available on the new win 8 app store, and run across windows 8, phone, tablet, xbox and media center."

    This has been the vision since day 1 of .net. time to cash in on this vision for once.

    Friday, June 03, 2011 4:05 PM
  • We spent 2 years developing a WPF project, and after all what I have seen, I am defiantly going html5 + JavaScript.

    I am not targeting all browsers, that is an overkill, I am targeting Google Chrome, one browser only, I may target IE9 but again, why targeting the any horse when you can target the fastest horse :-)

    Before you start a large project, test the technology, test Silverlight, push it to its limits, let’s say, put 10,000 text boxes in a page with a stack panel and try to open it.

    Repeat the test with html and IE9

    Results: Silverlight is unable to open the page! No way. IE9 renders the page in less than a second :-)

    It is a meaningless test, but in real life you will always hit some limit somewhere, and you will start looking for workarounds.

    Nice test, IE9 renders the 10,000 controls in no time, Silverlight just can’t, why?

    <input type=text value="ddd"/>
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    Friday, June 03, 2011 4:08 PM
  • So you are worried about being able to render 10,000 controls, but you're not worried that you are exclusively targeting a browser that has less than 20% of the market??????

    Friday, June 03, 2011 4:13 PM
  • None of us at Microsoft can say anything until //build/ in September. No one likes that, including me. That's all we can do, however.

    But someone at Microsoft DID say something.  They said HTML5/Javascript ( http://gizmodo.com/5807615/windows-8-and-its-incredibly-cool-new-touch-interface & http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/features/2011/jun11/06-01corporatenews.aspx ).  Why can't any clarification be made about Silverlight in regards to that statement by Microsoft?  Or, if this information isn't correct regarding the HTML5/Javascript focus for Win8 apps, can't someone clarify that at least?


    Vote!

    http://dotnet.uservoice.com/forums/4325-silverlight-feature-suggestions/suggestions/1894125-main-language-for-the-windows-8-development

    Friday, June 03, 2011 4:14 PM
  • Chrome + HTML/JS doesn't fly where I work. (a global bank)

    It's IE + Security.

    If i were to drop the logic we require into javascript (easily hacked) I would be fired.

    Silverlight is an enterprise dream. The rich ui of a desktop app + the ability to distribute the app over the web to 10k+ users.

    Stop de-railing the topic.

    Friday, June 03, 2011 4:21 PM
  • So you are worried about being able to render 10,000 controls, but you're not worried that you are exclusively targeting a browser that has less than 20% of the market??????

    Targeting a specific browser is like targeting a .NET framework version, you target .NET 3.0 and you feel relaxed, no need to recompile the thing under 1.1 and fox bugs, 2.0 and fix bugs, 3.5 and fix bugs and compatibility issues.

    It is the same with the browser, when I build a business application that will be used inside a company, the business application have minimum system requirements, and in this case, one of the requirements is Google Chrome.


    Friday, June 03, 2011 4:24 PM
  • So you are worried about being able to render 10,000 controls

    It is performance that I am worried about, IE9 can render them in less than a second, Silverlight 4 cannot at all, and it speaks a lot about how the technology handles performance!


    Friday, June 03, 2011 4:28 PM
  • That first link is a gizmodo article. Nowhere in there is a microsoft person saying that HTML/Javascript are the exclusive way to write applications. It's a new way, it's an exciting way, and, let's face it, a way that is likely to be hugely popular with web developers.

    News outlets make assumptions. I can't respond to that, neither does MS PR for reasons I don't entirely fathom.

    The press release shows only what we showed that day and is carefully worded to state as much. It doesn't speak to Windows 8 as a whole.

    I'm not a PR person. I don't know why we word things the way we do, or why we show certain things. I'm just asking folks not to make assumptions here (one way or the other) based on information we haven't actually shared.

    We can't say anything else until September. Trust me that the previous thread was visible at some of the highest levels inside Microsoft (one reason I edited to remove the trolls and insulting that was a problem and obscuring the message the thread was sending)

    To be very clear: I'm not saying anything here other than "wait for //build/" and our press release is the official word until you hear otherwise from PR or top Microsoft leadership. There are no promises being made here. I'm not stating support or lack of support for any specific technology or group of technologies.

    Pete

    Friday, June 03, 2011 4:30 PM
  • Before you start a large project, test the technology, test Silverlight, push it to its limits, let’s say, put 10,000 text boxes in a page with a stack panel and try to open it.

    I wonder how you define a "large project". It seems to me all you've mentioned are UI related - the presentation layer.


    Friday, June 03, 2011 4:40 PM
  • Before you start a large project, test the technology, test Silverlight, push it to its limits, let’s say, put 10,000 text boxes in a page with a stack panel and try to open it.

    I wonder how you define a "large project". It seems to me all you've mentioned are UI related - the presentation layer.


    don't feed the troll. he is ilogical and has no willingness to particiapte in a debate.

    Friday, June 03, 2011 4:41 PM
  • don't feed the troll. he is ilogical and has no willingness to particiapte in a debate.

    Illogical? Why anyone who does not agree with you is illogical?


    Friday, June 03, 2011 4:45 PM
  • I wonder how you define a "large project". It seems to me all you've mentioned are UI related - the presentation layer.

    Yes, the presentation layer, I have not seen Silverlight used on the server layer :-) and yes, presentation layers can be large as well :-)



    Friday, June 03, 2011 4:47 PM
  • don't feed the troll. he is ilogical and has no willingness to particiapte in a debate.

    Illogical? Why anyone who does not agree with you is illogical?



    The first part of testing something... to confirm your tests are VALID. (think about it)

    Friday, June 03, 2011 4:48 PM
  • The Silverlight and WPF performance bothered me so much, try this and let me know why:

    Visit any web page in Google Chrome, and click Ctrl+Shift+J, it will open the developer tools.

    In the page, select “inspect element”, or try to put a break point, or navigate the elements tree, or change things on the fly.

    It is unbelievably fast! And yes, this code is written by Apple and some of it by Google and it is out there free on the internet :-)

    I have seen something similar last year in the VS.NET 2010 debugger when debugging WPF, but it tools literally half a minute to open, and 4 to 5 seconds to switch between elements in the tree.

    Why can Apple and Google build something that fast html5 and JavaScript (which should be un-typed and slow languages) and Microsoft built something slow and unpractical in C# which is typed and the best language?


    Friday, June 03, 2011 4:55 PM
  • 5.5MIL+ views should be eye opening.

    I think it sure is, and it didn't go unnoticed.

    Silverlight, for me, and those whom I train, the 'a-ha' moment. We have spent years with bubble gum and tape (html/js) and the thought of going back to this world would be heart breaking for more people than you realize.

    I can imagine, and I can't see that scenario happening.


    The story would have been ground breaking to us silverlight/wpf devs if you just came out and said. "Your apps you build today, will be available on the new win 8 app store, and run across windows 8, phone, tablet, xbox and media center."

    We, the JavaScript people share that dream of a unified place, where you can use the language and toolset you most prefer. That's why this "a is demise of b" should end, there is no one language to rule them all, we are all different people, have different problems and make different solutions. And that's why, for example W3C, whose activity I'm part of, is being very strict about HTML5 not being just for JavaScript, the bigger picture is a place where the programming language doesn't define what you can't and can do.


    The best to you all in all your efforts,

    Jussi

    Friday, June 03, 2011 5:02 PM
  • @g.t.

    Dude SERIOUSLY!

    You make architectual choices based on the fact that a browser plug-in, designed to do one thing well is faster than a debugging environment that will debug from a button click, across a server, into a web service, into a sql procedure and back again?

    bah... with all do respect... you don't get it.

    Friday, June 03, 2011 5:04 PM
  • Of course he doesn't get it.  He comes here to tell us that HTML/Javascript is so awesome, and then proceeds to inform us that he doesn't even use the only real strength of the platform (the fact that it runs on pretty much EVERY browser) because he requires all of his customers to ONLY use the Chrome browser to save him the hassle of having to deal with cross-browser issues (otherwise known as web development).

    How would someone like that be able to understand the power of being able to write enterprise desktop quality code and then immediately have it available on every major browser of the Windows or Macintosh platform without having to do anything but a very minimal amount of cross-platform testing?

    I currently work for a very small company that creates consumer products.  There is NO way we would have had the budget to create both a Windows and Mac version of our software if it hadn't been for Silverlight.   Because of Silverlight, we got it for free, and we honestly didn't find a single issue on the Mac even though we didn't have time to look at it until the very end of the project.  

    Without Silverlight, we just wouldn't have been able to support Mac at all, which would have been a shame.

     

    Friday, June 03, 2011 5:27 PM
  • @jussi

    I appreciate your comment. +1

    Here is the thing... I have nothing against js/html and so on. I lived and died by this framework for far too long.

    The thing about silverlight is that MSFT 'GOT IT'. From the ground up they answered EVERY complaint we had with typical js/html development. They did so in spades. If you have never developed in this environment OR would like to see what it's like to 'hit all the marks' you should.

    It's not about speed, it's about a framework that turns spaghetti into a coehesive solution. To this day... and from the days moving foward... html/js will be playing catch up.

    The rub is simple, should the 'buzz' kill silverlight, i would blame no one else other than microsoft.

    It's just that good. (if W3 can do what SL does, i have no problem jumping ship).

    -cheers

    Friday, June 03, 2011 5:32 PM
  • Guys, don't make it personal. It's heading down the same road as next time.

    Keep it to issues on topic. Keep it civil. Don't be mean. Be respectful. Remember, we're all peers here, not enemies.

    Pete

    Friday, June 03, 2011 5:33 PM
  •  Nowhere in there is a microsoft person saying that HTML/Javascript are the exclusive way to write applications. It's a new way, it's an exciting way, and, let's face it, a way that is likely to be hugely popular with web developers.

    Nobody is actually complaining about what we can do with HTML/JS on Windows 8, it's more about what we can't do with Silverlight. But then you are right, it's pure speculation right now. However, it's not our fault that MS is making a mess all the time when it comes to PR and Silverlight. It's treated like an unloved child.

    Friday, June 03, 2011 5:39 PM
  • I wonder where ASP.NET MVC comes into this? Its not silverlight but it marries HTML, CSS and C# and can host silverlight.

    Friday, June 03, 2011 5:44 PM
  • I just joined this forum.  I do not normally ever post to this sort of thing, but feel compelled to do so...

    I cannot imagine that Microsoft, a company I have always respected for its emphasis on developers and whose early strategy was predicated on winning our hearts and minds, could so suddenly turn its back upon the community that helped deliver their initial success.  If not for the apps we created for this platform, they would not be in the position they have enjoyed to date.  Adopting HTML5/JS is fine.  Not telling us what they plan for their most loyal developers is not fine.  Perhaps, there is some presumption built in that we are in their hip pocket and no matter what they do, we are a captured user base?

    On the HTML5 front, Microsoft adoption makes perfect sense.  There are a TON of developers out there with apps that Microsoft wants to pull on to their platform.  HTML5 will further their reach.  Clearly, going after touch, tablets, and phones means that MS should reach out to that community and provide them a strong on ramp to the Microsoft platforms.

    I get that.  But, back to the deafening silence.  The position Microsoft is taking on this actually makes me sad and have a bit of compassion for psychlist1972.  Would you like his job?  It doesn't fundamentally matter to me if the news is good or bad, I just need the news to plan my future direction.  The silent treatment is the WORST treatment for your allies and partners.

    Lets evaluate the scenarios:

    1. Deprecation of SL - My nightmare scenario.  Not gonna happen.  Microsoft has a stellar track record for sustaining APIs and technologies for a very long time.
    2. Sustaining investment in SL - SL is not mature enough to leverage as if for my needs.  I have to exit the platform.
    3. Minor growth investment in SL - Great.  I stand pat and leverage a great technology
    4. Massive investment in SL - Great.  I stand pat and leverage a great technology

    What harm does letting me know the Microsoft position on Silverlight?  I see no downsides for Microsoft.  There are obvious downsides to remaining silent.  They are creating FUD for their own platform and people will delay adoption or exit.  If they are truly killing it or mothballing it, its better to rip the bandaid now or they will just build more enmity in their user base for those folks they pulled along while they were being silent. 

    I am a loyal Microsoft partner.  Please treat me like one.

    Friday, June 03, 2011 6:11 PM
  • We spent 2 years developing a WPF project, and after all what I have seen, I am defiantly going html5 + JavaScript.

    What's a value converter?

    Friday, June 03, 2011 6:18 PM

  • neoearth:

    Here is the thing... I have nothing against js/html and so on. I lived and died by this framework for far too long.

    The thing about silverlight is that MSFT 'GOT IT'. From the ground up they answered EVERY complaint we had with typical js/html development. They did so in spades. If you have never developed in this environment OR would like to see what it's like to 'hit all the marks' you should.

    It's not about speed, it's about a framework that turns spaghetti into a coehesive solution. To this day... and from the days moving foward... html/js will be playing catch up.

    The rub is simple, should the 'buzz' kill silverlight, i would blame no one else other than microsoft.

    It's just that good. (if W3 can do what SL does, i have no problem jumping ship).


    neoearth: That is exactly right. 

    I think what everyone is feeling right now is total disbelief.  How could MS come so far down the road with a product that is this good and then leave it at the alter?  Unfathomable.  Somebody, somewhere, way up high at Microsoft didn't get the memo.  There needs to be a cleansing, a purging with fire in Redmond.  I can't even imagine what the SL development team is feeling right now.   
    Wayne Gretzky is famous for saying he always skated to where the puck is going to be.  That is the situation we are in now.  We know where the puck is.  We need to go to where the puck is going to be.

    Friday, June 03, 2011 6:22 PM
  • We spent 2 years developing a WPF project, and after all what I have seen, I am defiantly going html5 + JavaScript.

    This makes zero sense to me and seems reactionary rather than a well-thought-out architectural decision.

    You saw that you can write WPF apps for Windows 8. "Existing apps will run". TBD if they can use the new shell, but they do run in classic mode at a minimum.

    While I'll be happy to be proven wrong, I'm going to go out on a limb here and say the majority of internal business applications are not going to make use of the new tile interface in a big way. Why? From my own informal surveys and 15 years in consulting (I've been at Microsoft just over 1.5 years), most business users, developers, and managers, are still stuck in "500 fields and a 100 column datagrid" mode when designing apps. It's rare to find a team with a real UX pro involved up-front and who have the capability, skill, desire (and time/funding) to move beyond that. In addition, many businesses still run XP, or they run Windows 7 and will continue to do so for a long time. Windows 8 won't be released for some time, and 7 is a very good OS with long legs. I've even seen businesses that require their users to stick with the classic Win2k style shell no matter what OS.

    That all said, we're squarely targeting WPF at ISV type applications, and Silverlight at business developers. I've been saying that one for a while now. That has no bearing on what we're doing for Windows 8. Whether or not you can target the tile interface using anything beyond HTML/JS/CSS is a question for the //build/ conference to answer.

    Silverlight 5 is still in progress. WPF v.next is still in progress. Both are scheduled for release. Both are real products with real features that real developers find really useful :)

    Finally, we don't have the full story. Making future architectural decisions based on assumptions from demos is irresponsible. Saying we should tell you more does not change the fact that you are making a decision based on a very minimal amount of evidence.

    Pete

    Friday, June 03, 2011 6:32 PM
  • Strictly speaking peers can be enemies.

    But point taken.

    PS. At least I didn't start that with "Well, actually..." Smile

    However, I think there is useful information for Microsoft in the reaction (this is worth noting since most of the public reaction to the reactiion has been patronising at best).

    1) Silverlight developers who have very good reasons for preferring the combination of their chosen language(s) + Silverlight are (at least in significant proportion) unimpressed at the prospect of what appears to be a logic choice for the new platform being ignored in favour of HTML/JS
    2) This attitude extends to .NET developers in general, who several years ago (circa PDC 2003 especially) were urged by Microsoft in the strongest terms to bet their money and professional careers on .NET - and many would otherwise have gone the Java route...although the lack of love for .NET from the Windows team and others has been evident since Vista at least.
    3) There is a cultural point here which is more apparent to developers outside the corporate bubble than to executives: many of those who currently shun Microsoft technologies in preference for web-only ones (among other things) do so at least in part not for technical reasons, but because they despise Microsoft and all its works (whatever we think of that attitude, it exists). Microsoft will not win those people over. Ever.
    4) After loudly proclaiming that "Every Silverlight developer is now a mobile developer", despite the dubious accuracy of that statement (since programming for a mobile device is *not* the same as coding for the desktop), Microsoft has left Silverlight Windows Phone devs bewildered by proposing a platform that very much resembles Windows Phone on numerous levels, but on which Silverlight is just an also-ran that seems at best to be supported as a side-effect of maintaining browser compatibility. Yes I know that probably bodes ill for the future of Silverlight as the dominant platform for Windows Phone, and I'm not impressed by that either.

    The emotion generated is not simply an indicator of immaturity or instability, and after the bets we've been asked to make on Microsoft technologies over the years we deserve a decent response. 

     

    Friday, June 03, 2011 6:38 PM
  • >>I'm not a PR person. I don't know why we word things the way we do, or why we show certain things. I'm just asking folks >>not to make assumptions here (one way or the other) based on information we haven't actually shared.


    Pete this is not directed at you because I understand your situation.  However if you have a crib sheet with extension numbers to offices in Redmond you may want to use it right about now and tell those fellas that the "HEAD BURIED IN THE SAND" STRATAGY ISN'T WORKING.   I could be wrong but I think MS is going to be relentlessly and mercilessly assaulted by the media and the development community until they come clean.  Who knows, we might even see some decline in stock price.  I mean what shareholder wants to pay for the kind of talent it takes to develop Silverlight only to see their investment FLUSHED at its fruition?  Again,  I could be wrong.

    Friday, June 03, 2011 6:41 PM

  • neoearth:

    Here is the thing... I have nothing against js/html and so on. I lived and died by this framework for far too long.

    The thing about silverlight is that MSFT 'GOT IT'. From the ground up they answered EVERY complaint we had with typical js/html development. They did so in spades. If you have never developed in this environment OR would like to see what it's like to 'hit all the marks' you should.

    It's not about speed, it's about a framework that turns spaghetti into a coehesive solution. To this day... and from the days moving foward... html/js will be playing catch up.

    The rub is simple, should the 'buzz' kill silverlight, i would blame no one else other than microsoft.

    It's just that good. (if W3 can do what SL does, i have no problem jumping ship).


    neoearth: That is exactly right. 

    I think what everyone is feeling right now is total disbelief.  How could MS come so far down the road with a product that is this good and then leave it at the alter?  Unfathomable.  Somebody, somewhere, way up high at Microsoft didn't get the memo.  There needs to be a cleansing, a purging with fire in Redmond.  I can't even imagine what the SL development team is feeling right now.   
    Wayne Gretzky is famous for saying he always skated to where the puck is going to be.  That is the situation we are in now.  We know where the puck is.  We need to go to where the puck is going to be.

     

    Entirely correct. I think .NET in general (and Silverlight in particular)  represents a great shining example of Microsoft "getting it" from a programming perspective, and I see no logic in not building on that basis for the future.

    Friday, June 03, 2011 6:44 PM
  • The full picture that has been developing over the last couple years with Azure, SQL Azure, Silverlight, and RIA Services has been incredible.  It's like a full fledge desktop application framework that can be built once, run anywhere, deployed instantly, with a sweet UI to boot.  This is the holy grail for LOB application developers.

    The only thing that was needed to push this past the event horizon was to support 1 more platform (Android).  Case in point, look at the top request on Uservoice.

    This wouldn't be so frustrating if Microsoft hadn't been so close to pulling it off.

    I don't think Microsoft has a full grasp of the damage they are doing to their developer base and the Silverlight platform at the moment.

    You can spin it how you want, but MS at any given time has their favorite child that seems to get all of the new toys.  WPF got it for awhile, then it was on to Silverlight, now we're on to HTML5.  If all we have to look forward to is the current effort being put into WPF, then let's call a spade a spade.  This puppy is dead.  SL can sit in the Microsoft museum right next to the XBAP display.

    All it needed was support for one more platform...

    Friday, June 03, 2011 6:45 PM
  • It's actually quite interesting. Smart phones and potentially pads/new tablets seem to have a somewhat different technology life cycle. Anyone has a 5 year old phone they still use? Anyone expecting their $1.00 app to still be working on the latest platform in an other five years? Anyone will try to track down the author of the $1.00 app and try to convince them they have to upgrade the application to the new platform for minimal to no cost?

    I know that our business clients come back when their 1 million dollar app doesn't work with the latest browser. Even when we don't deal with all the different browsers in an intranet scenario and require IE only, we still have a wide range of different browsers to support. Most are still on XP, but some on Windows 7, so you get IE 6 through IE 9 to support. Throw on top of that all the service requests related to browser settings that can mess up an application (security zones, caching of SSL secured pages, ...) and you have quite a bit of support work that is not even related to what the application does: it's just infrastructure in the end.

    Business want the ability to run different apps across different OS versions. And I enjoyed SL for that purpose. Doesn't matter if you have IE6 or IE10, it looks the same. Doesn't matter if you are on XP or W7, it looks the same. Not to mention the sharp intake of breath and the 'Wow! This is so 2000+now!' responses for SL compared to the 'oh no, an other web app with all of its headaches' responses to web apps.

    Not to mention that businesses don't update their apps that fast. New money makers have a priority above rewriting exisitng money makers. So most of our current HTML apps won't see HTML5 for at least an other 7-10 years.

    Since the business market for tablets/pads is still wide open, I am sure MS will recognize the importance of making existing LOB applications work as first class citizens on their new platform.

    Friday, June 03, 2011 8:03 PM
  • Here is my opinion, and it's worth exactly what you're paying me for it.

    There are several reasons why Microsoft is mum about a lot of things, and they all revolve around the fact that Windows 8 is really half baked right now.

    1. They had a primary goal of porting Windows 8 to ARM, and delivering the primary development tool for the OS, which is HTML/JS/CSS.  Agree or disagree(and I agree), this was a really smart move, and one the all of us will eventually thank them for when the market share jumps, and we can sell more, or work more into it.
    2. They are probably working hard to get the secondary development environment(XAML/C#/Silverlight), and don't know at this time if it will make it in time to launch.

    Why would item 2 be the case?  Well, the most important thing to have happen is to get this product to market ASAP!  When that happens, we all win, and guess what.  It's not like we can't deliver some apps built in the "Glue" language until the real stuff comes along.

    I don't like the quiet, it's a departure from Microsoft's normal behavior, but one thing has been demonstrated, dispite what some are saying.

    In my experience, I've seen very little of Microsoft dropping basic technology.  I could be wrong, but I think we have to give them the benefit of the doubt, and the development time to bring all of this to closure.  As quiet as it's kept, this is no easy task.

     

     

     

     

     

    Friday, June 03, 2011 8:10 PM
  • Yes, the presentation layer, I have not seen Silverlight used on the server layer

    Actually, one of the brilliant features of Silverlight is the ability to compile code that can be used on both the client (browser) and the server. Same source code, one compile, one dll, and re-use in both locations. It makes managing codebases *much* easier.

     

    Friday, June 03, 2011 8:58 PM
  • There are several reasons why Microsoft is mum about a lot of things, and they all revolve around the fact that Windows 8 is really half baked right now.

    1. They had a primary goal of porting Windows 8 to ARM, and delivering the primary development tool for the OS, which is HTML/JS/CSS.  Agree or disagree(and I agree), this was a really smart move, and one the all of us will eventually thank them for when the market share jumps, and we can sell more, or work more into it.
    2. They are probably working hard to get the secondary development environment(XAML/C#/Silverlight), and don't know at this time if it will make it in time to launch.

    Why would item 2 be the case?  Well, the most important thing to have happen is to get this product to market ASAP!  When that happens, we all win, and guess what.  It's not like we can't deliver some apps built in the "Glue" language until the real stuff comes along.

    Following your assumption, I think this is nice strategy.

    We still don't know if ARM-based Windows 8 could run .NET application (either Silverlight, WPF, or Win Form) as there will not be any emulator. Porting full .NET stack to ARM-based devices is probably not going to be easy, and Microsoft can't delay Windows 8 thay long.

    Using HTML5/JS/CSS means that we can write applications that can run on both platforms immediately.


    I don't hate HTML5/JS much anymore since I know JQuery. However, comparing HTML5/JS model to XAML-based application model which, IMO, a piece of art, is another story. Can't wait for BUILD event.



    Friday, June 03, 2011 9:07 PM
  • Using HTML5/JS/CSS means that we can write applications that can run on both platforms immediately. XAML-based application model is a piece of art and I don't think Microsoft will just abandon it.

    I agree. I like Javascript as a functional language and I like the possibility of using it to develop visually interesting thin UX with HTML5 for use on various browsers and platforms (backed by .NET servers). I understand Microsoft wanting to tap into the general web developer base, so I understand their focus on this community as of late.

    I don't think Microsoft will abandon their immense investment in Silverlight (through v5 and into Windows Phone, including the Nokia deal). I would like to be able to develop phone apps that could easily be turned into Tablet apps or possibly desktop apps. While often times these different types of systems would use different types of apps, some apps are good candidates for use across all the platforms (e.g. admin apps to track, monitor, and administer business operations).

    That all said, their silence is deafening.

    Friday, June 03, 2011 9:23 PM
  • None of us at Microsoft can say anything until //build/ in September. No one likes that, including me. That's all we can do, however.

    That is simply unacceptable.  It was that same strategy of silence which enabled the "Death of WPF" and "Death of Silverlight" rumors to spiral out of control and ultimately become self-fulfilling prophecy.  It does not matter if a rumor is sensical, because once enough people start to accept it as fact, it has the power to shift an entire industry.

    Pete, I know you're as tired as anyone of the constant rumormongering, but it goes with the territory.  As they say, if you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen.

    Microsoft has the world's largest developer base, and many of us have invested heavily in platforms like .NET and Silverlight. We trusted that these investments would pay off.  Unfortunately, the volatility is becoming untenable--Microsoft seems to change direction every other year, leaving us twisting in the wind.  This has been a recurring theme for the past few years; how long do you think developers are going to tolerate it?  In less than two years, I have gone from being a die-hard Microsoft platform evangelist to a refugee.  Well, I will no longer cast my fate with a company that cares more about secrecy and media impact than its own developers.  I will not adopt another Microsoft platform as long as these trends continue.  You have lost all credibility, and this cone of silence is a smack in the face to all of us.

    Friday, June 03, 2011 9:25 PM
  • Hi guys,

    Please check out this open letter that makes our case:

    http://forums.silverlight.net/forums/p/230744/563049.aspx

    An Open Plea by Silverlight and WPF Developers to Fully Support These Wonderful MS .NET Platforms in Windows 8 in Addition to the New HTML5 Platform

    ...

    Friday, June 03, 2011 10:09 PM
  • Actually, one of the brilliant features of Silverlight is the ability to compile code that can be used on both the client (browser) and the server. Same source code, one compile, one dll, and re-use in both locations. It makes managing codebases *much* easier.

     

    Yep, that is exactly what we did with our client/server game.   All of our networkable objects are using the same codebase on both the client and the server (we wrote custom serialization using sockets).  Write the object once, use it in both client and server code, just have to call Serialize() on one end and then Deserialize() on the other.  Works brilliantly.

    It isn't officially "Silverlight" on the server because Silverlight is a UX framework.  You would have no reason to use Silverlight on a server.  You would never use ANY GUI framework on a server, because server code doesn't  have UI.  But the point is that it is C#, and it is the EXACT SAME CODE running on both client and server with not a single change.  And if you link the file to both projects (or compile it to a DLL and link it in to both projects) you can change it in one place and it gets updated in both client AND server, meaning you never get accidently out of sync.  I can't even count how much time and money that has saved us.

    Friday, June 03, 2011 10:49 PM
  • I have a simple question. Is is possible with current or future Microsoft technology to write a single application that runs on both a Windows 8 tablet and a Windows Phone 7?

    I find it strange that Microsoft almost simltaneously announced two different incompatible technologies for the Windows Phone (Mango) and Windows Tablet (HTML/JS). 

    Note that neither Apple nor Android have differing developement stories for Tablets and Phone.


    Friday, June 03, 2011 11:17 PM
  • I have a simple question. Is is possible with current or future Microsoft technology to write a single application that runs on both a Windows 8 tablet and a Windows Phone 7?


    My gut feeling said yes, but as you can see from the past two days, nobody really knows yet.


    After thinking more about Windows 8 strategy (and turn off my panic button), I think this will benefit us, .NET, XAML developers in the long run. Silverlight and WPF are not going away for sure as Windows 8 is still Windows.

    However, as much as we love Microsoft stacks, we have to realize that there is still another side of the world that is bigger than us (HTML/JS). Both tools/platforms have pros and cons.

    Microsoft needs both groups to embrace Windows 8. The more Windows 8 developers (either HTML5 or XAML), wil lead to more competition which means better quality applications and so on.


    Good night!

    Saturday, June 04, 2011 12:20 AM
  • I think there's been too much nonsense on this topic. I think Silverlight is awesome. But if I have to use HTML/JavaScript for "fancy" apps, so be it. It'll be more difficult and obnoxius, but then again, so was VB 3.0 compared to today's tools, and I managed.

    But I will say: I'm not developing more apps for WP7, not until Magngo is out and I can use HTML5 there too.  I always assumed Win8's marketplace would work with Silverlight, and I actually have been waiting patiently for MS to announce a Silverlight-based XBOX marketplace already. I assumed any SL apps I write for WP7 now (have 2 in the marketplace, working on 3rd) would become available in the XBOX+Win marketplaces with little to no work (a la app store). 

    But I guess those things aren't happening, or at least I have no way of knowing when those may or may not happen for a few months, so the app I was working on is on hold and I'll come to XAPFEST tomorrow empty handed. Oh well.  I'll make the next killer app some other year. :)

    By the way, Pete, I got to meet you at MIX11 and you're a great guy. You don't deseve to be put in the middle of this.  Your company has placed you in a horrible position and I think you've handled yourself extremely well.

    Saturday, June 04, 2011 12:32 AM
  • 1.5 years ago, when my company began working on an online project I was the biggest advocator of Silverlight in my team, and did put up a fight for choosing it, actually believing WPF/SL UIs were the future of Windows. Switched to .NET in 2005, and just couldn't switch back due to the awesome tools and great proposed (and believable) future. When MS started to ---- us, I still held on long, just couldn’t believe it could be dropped for something like HTML and JS. Now I actually feel like it's over. I know, Silverlight/WPF will be available in Windows 8, great thing. We all know HTML5 is getting way bigger development budget, and sensible companies will either go with completely native UI for performance critical apps, or HTML5 for availability and better future predictions, great thing.

    So they say Silverlight is and has always been meant for LOB, not for end consumers? What's a LOB if Office365 isn't? Is there any Silverlight in it? Was the Olimpycs broadcasting considered a LOB application as well? 

    After we publish this project, I'll still try to stay in the .NET space for a while if I can, because I really love the tools, and I have 6 years of strong experience in it. But I'll never dare to fight for the usage of any Microsoft technology again after they left us down like this, without even trying to compete with HTML5.

    Thank you Microsoft for making a technology legacy after investing and spreading it as the future for years. Next time -when forced to choose- I'll stick with the plans of Apple and Google, they do replace technologies too, but not anywhere near this magnitude in distance and direction.

    Maybe they're just better predictors.


    Saturday, June 04, 2011 12:52 AM
  • Truly depressing. My partner and I have a project that must be done and ready to sell by August 1st. "Wait until September" is some kind of cruel joke. We accepted the previous levels of uncertainty, but now? I'm having a brutal time making the Silverlight case to myself anymore. Can't really. Not for any technical reason, but because of old fashioned "risk management". If Microsoft doesn't care to go all out to support their toolset, and has apparently put a gag order until September on the one visible Microsoft employee in these threads (not meant as a criticism of him personally of course, only noting he can't say anything more than he has), then Silverlight is simply too risky for us to use as the founation for our new venture. :-(

    Saturday, June 04, 2011 2:57 AM
  • Yep, this "wait till September" stuff is just going to KILL anyone trying to push Silverlight as a platform right now.  Microsoft has shoved a knife (for the second time in the last few months) in the back of anyone trying to evangalize for Silverlight development.

    Personally, we made the decision to go Silverlight several years ago (back when Microsoft actually seemed committed to this mutli-platform thing) so we're committed now.  We can wait the 3 months to find out if I have to change our client code over to something else if Microsoft refuses to properly support Silverlight moving forward.  But for anyone trying to make the decision right now it is just brutal.  I mean, right now there would be NO WAY I would currently support a company decision to move forward with Silverlight as a platform given the messaging we are getting from Redmond.  And i LOVE Silverlight.  It's been one of the best programming experiences of my career.  But Microsoft is making it career suicide for developers to support Silverlight as a platform. 

    Saturday, June 04, 2011 3:51 AM
  • I wrote an open letter saying what my hopes for SL are, and how to make it competive against HTML+js. http://forums.silverlight.net/forums/p/230750/563061.aspx

    Saturday, June 04, 2011 5:35 AM
  • I am not sure if an open latter will do anything about performance, you can see many complains about WPF performance submitted years ago on connect.microsoft.com

    It is about competition, Google Chrome is releasing a new browser version every 6 or 8 weeks, and every new release has new API and performance improvements, in their 11th release or 10th release, the Google V8 script engine improved performance by 50% from the release earlier :-)

    Microsoft Internet Explorer has to compete with that or go out of market, there is no third option, and now html5 in IE9 and IE10 beta are actually good, not as in Chrome, but they are getting very good!

    Silverlight has no one to compete with, Flash? , it is enough to be stable and not to crash and you already victories again Flash :-)

    I wish that Microsoft released a performance update to Microsoft C# every few weeks, that would have bean great, or even once or twice a year, they just did not care.

    Look at VS.NET 2010, it is one of the first real WPF product, and it is the most expensive to date and the slowest to date!

    Because of Apple and Google, html5 + JavaScript today is the best user interface technology out there, they made it do everything that everyone one loves, you want typed variables you can enable strict mode, you don’t want them typed you disable strict mode, you want classes there is classes (yes, in JavaScript 5 there are classes, well a bit different but there are), you don’t want classes it is fine, do not use them, you want compiler, there is compiler (Google Closure), you don't want compuler? it is ok, it can work without it, feel free, relax and concentrate about your project.

    You want to reuse code? Extract it in a separate JavaScript file and call it anywhere you want, it is as simple as that :-)

    Serialization? All the memory is available to you as a text file, you can get JSON from any object at any time, or convert any JSON text to an object at anytime, performance during serialization? Incredible, WCF just cannot compete there, no way.

    They now have multi threading (background workers) as well, Windows services? Yeh, background applications in Google Chrome, yes it is like a Windows service that is written in JavaScript and runs on Mac, Linux, and Windows.

    In the last 2 years, Google create a fully functional application environment in a browser, which is way faster than anything out there, there are emulators written in JavaScript, as well as 3D games, something that was unbelievable a few years ago.

    This should have been Silverlight! unfortunately it was not :-(

     


    Saturday, June 04, 2011 7:56 AM
  • Silverlight has no one to compete with, Flash? , it is enough to be stable and not to crash and you already victories again Flash :-)

    Silverlight now has to compete against MSIE HTML+js. And I'm sad to say it is losing.

    Saturday, June 04, 2011 8:52 AM
  • You want to reuse code? Extract it in a separate JavaScript file and call it anywhere you want, it is as simple as that :-)

    Unfortunately, it's not that simple. No one wants to put their intellectual property into easily viewable source code files (or a company's proprietary business logic). With Silverlight there is no simple browser menu option for viewing the source code like there is with Javascript. This means putting this logic on the server and making server-side calls to it whenever it's needed. This is *much* slower than executing the code locally in Silverlight. Plus, with Silverlight, you only have to write the logic once (in C#, not C# and Javascript).

     

    Saturday, June 04, 2011 9:20 AM
  • g.t.

    You r such a TROLL.

    You are the reason the last thread was closed down. We are having a serious discussion and the only thing you do is come in and spout off Googles work with javascript and say some of the dumbest $hit I have ever heard like "I wish they would release service packs to speed up C#".

    You have been reported.

     

    Saturday, June 04, 2011 9:27 AM
  • Hey Guys,

    The thing I more hate of being a Silverlight Developers, is having to live with the HTML 5 behaving like excited teenagers, last time they start shouting Silverlight was death  Ms announced Silverlight 5.

    Now non Ms Developers have as well available HTML 5 as desktop technology that's great, now let's see if they can do good app's, and let us choose to use what we want, if technologies like Flex or Silverlight wouldn't popup HTML 5 wouldn't never popup.

    On the other hand I hate dumb people bragging about HTML 5, and using seesmic, tweet deck o metro tweet, or power point 2010, or Visual Studio, or... please start using your HTML 5 app's.

    Cheers

      Braulio

     

    Saturday, June 04, 2011 9:28 AM
  • I never felt the need to post on these forums until now. I've been doing Windows development for 15 years. This has to be the worst news I've heard in my entire carreer. 

    To the people saying that you can compile C# to JS: you could probably compile C# to rule 110 cellular automaton since it's Turing complete. That doesn't make it right.

    Microsoft has a winning platform in .NET; the fastest evolving language  C#; it has has F#, which is a thing of beauty. Now they want to impose on us the mess of HTML5+Javascript only because Windows division has an engine that can render that.

    I signed up today to declare that if this is Microsoft final choice, then my choice will be to:

    1) not renew my MSDN subscription

    2) never buy a Windows 8 product 

    3) at work, recommend against using Microsoft technologies 

    4) in my private life, avoid anything that would generate revenue for Microsoft

    My job is designing medical imaging devices. I need a robust, statically typed language for that. I can't afford to discover errors at runtime. I want the succinctness of F# for my math. And I want multitouch and gestures.

    But perhaps Microsoft will recruit a huge army of HTML loving kids, who will flood the app store with stock ticker apps and pick up line generators. If that's the brave new world, I want no part of it.


    Saturday, June 04, 2011 10:29 AM
  • SilentObserver:

    I agree 100%. I've been working for the last 8 months on a class library for high-precision image processing (medical imaging applications in particular). The routines are numerically intensive and I need to pay attention to data types for the sake of the numerical accuracy of the SDK's results. Doing this in anything other than a strongly typed language is madness. The library makes use of many of .NET's great features (pervasively threaded, callable from C#/VB/F#/etc, GPU-accelerated), so I was anticipating rolling up the functionality into a .NET component (maybe Silverlight, maybe WPF) for use by firms targeting tablets as a medical imaging processing/viewing platform and have it ready by the time Windows 8 is released. I can't imagine doing this over again in HTML5/JS just to get it to work on the Windows 8 tablet UI. I just can't. Like others here I'm stunned at this development.

    I can only come to the conclusion that folks at Microsoft focused on the toy-model approach of apps on touch tablets and simply didn't aticipate someone would target the interface for a "big gun" application. What now I wonder?

    Lionel Keene, Ph.D

    Saturday, June 04, 2011 11:00 AM
  • ...

    No one wants to put their intellectual property into easily viewable source code files 

    ...

    Have you SEEN Redgate Reflector or other IL decompilers?  I hope you are obfuscating your SL code because otherwise, it is all there for people on the client to peruse.

    Saturday, June 04, 2011 11:56 AM
  • Psychli, you are useless in this forum.  Microsoft gave a sneak peek at the next gen of windows and they announce support for HTML5/Javascript for the new UI why didn't they just say HTML5/Javascript/Silverlight and WPF.  We would not have an issue.  Please stop shuting down post because you don't want to hear for the community.  You should spend time getting answers from your bosses for us.

    Saturday, June 04, 2011 12:10 PM
  • Could someone explain what 'building W8 apps in HTML5/JS' means?

    Could building W8 apps this way be done with the 'pure' HTML5/JS stack, or will it require
    W8 'native' extensions ;-)?

    If plain HTML5/JS can be used, the such produced apps would run anywhere HTML5/JS is supported,
    and can therefore no more be described as W8 apps: they are just HTML5 apps: W8 becomes
    a detail in the story.

    If HTML5/JS has to be extended for W8 apps then everybody will agree that......... HTML5 is DEAD, finally :-)!

    If no one at MS can answer those simple questions before BUILD, why having mentionned HTML5 for W8 months
    before this event?

     


    Saturday, June 04, 2011 12:25 PM
  • Go easy on Pete (Psychli).  He is one of the few WPF / Silverlight evangelists left, and is definitely on our side.  You're not going to help anything by insulting him.

    Saturday, June 04, 2011 12:26 PM
  • Psychli, you are useless in this forum.  Microsoft gave a sneak peek at the next gen of windows and they announce support for HTML5/Javascript for the new UI why didn't they just say HTML5/Javascript/Silverlight and WPF.  We would not have an issue.  Please stop shuting down post because you don't want to hear for the community.  You should spend time getting answers from your bosses for us.

    Nobody is satisfied with "we have nothing to say" attitude from MICROSOFT here while they are telling people something about HTML5/JS so proudly somewhere else. But your comments is absolutely unfair to Pete.

    Saturday, June 04, 2011 12:37 PM
  • ...

    No one wants to put their intellectual property into easily viewable source code files 

    ...

    Have you SEEN Redgate Reflector or other IL decompilers?  I hope you are obfuscating your SL code because otherwise, it is all there for people on the client to peruse.

    Yes, which is why I used the word easily : )

    I'm not aware of any easy, reliable, non-bug causing obfuscators for Javascript, but it's been awhile since I've looked.

     

    Saturday, June 04, 2011 12:44 PM
  • OK, but I would argue that in the Mobile Tablet/Phone space HTML/JS is and will remain a minor player compared to Apple's Objective C and Android's Java. For HTML/JS t be viable for me I need to be able to interact easily with .NET dlls

    Saturday, June 04, 2011 1:18 PM
  • I'm guessing the idea could be to use HTML5 / JS for the front end and write any back end logic on Azure in C#.  It certainly aligns with the strong cloud push MS has been making.  For any more complicated client applications, one possibility will be to use the fallback (non-tiled) WP8 interface. 

    There are a few things that give me pause concerning this approach:

    We've seen examples of HTML5 / JS stumbling as the native development platform for both the early iPhone and WebOS devices. In both of those cases the development experience had to be extended with Objective C and C++ respectively.      

    Windows Phone 7 currently uses Silverlight for application development, how will these applications transfer to the Win8 tile interface?

    What about 3D applications?  Windows Phone allows mixing of SL and XNA content - how will these scenarios be achieved with HTML5 / JS in the Win8 tile interface?

    I'll attend the Build conference in September, and I think it's important to remember that we don't have all of the information as of yet, so I'm willing to take a wait and see approach.  That said, we're going to pump the brakes on using SL until Build in Sept.

    Saturday, June 04, 2011 1:38 PM
  • We all hoped that Jupiter is going to be the new App model for Windows 8. When I read the article from Mary-Jo about Jupiter, a statement like this made perfect sense:

    "Jupiter is going to be a new user interface (UI) library for Windows, built alongside Windows 8. It will be a thin XAML/UI layer on top of Windows application programming interfaces and frameworks for subsystems like graphics, text and input. The idea is Jupiter will bring support for smoother and more fluid animation, rich typography, and new media capabilities to Windows 8 devices. (Not surprisingly, the more fluid UI capabilities also are on the feature set list for Silverlight 5.)"

    However when revisited the articel yesterday, I found an upadate and a response from Soma.

    "Update (January 7): Soma Somasegar, Senior Vice President of Microsoft’s Developer Division, responded directly to me on Friday with a comment on this post. He reiterated that Microsoft is not yet ready to talk about the next version of Windows, but did say that “some of the information in this post is not right and out of date, not reflecting Microsoft’s current thinking.” When I asked for more information about which parts of this information were incorrect, Somasegar declined to comment."

    So obviously the "some of the information" - part is related to XAML and aligns well with statement from Mike Angiulobit. 

    "This Application Platform ist based on html5, js and CSS. The most widely understood programming languanges of all times."

    In the end I don't believe that Jupiter is what we hoped so badly. But I don't think Silverlight is dead. It just sit's on the bench and we have to wait till the new player fails on the field. As the previous posts mention, it's not the first time that HTML fails as primary development platform for devices. They have chosen the wrong captain for the team.

     

    Saturday, June 04, 2011 2:28 PM
  • and we have to wait till the new player fails on the field. As the previous posts mention, it's not the first time that HTML fails as primary development platform for devices. They have chosen the wrong captain for the team.

    bitdisaster:

    You are right, but I'm tired of waiting for their bad ideas to be proven wrong by history. And when one bad idea fades away ( COM), another one (HTML+Javascript) comes along. Also, people take dependencies on this crap, so once in, it can never be taken out.


    P.S. congratulations: your original thread has now over 7 million views. 




    Saturday, June 04, 2011 3:30 PM
  • P.S. congratulations: your original thread has now over 7 million views. 

    Yeah but it's sad that only bad news can produce such a traffic. I guess the "our strategy has shifted" thread had similiar attention.

    Saturday, June 04, 2011 4:10 PM
  • The silence is the easiest way to respond.Ok let HTML/JS be the first class citizen in Windows 8. Like John Lennon sing - "Let it be!" But what about WP7.I'm Android/WP7 dev and yes I like it more  WP7 over Android. But now I'm upset with Microsoft's "But yes, of course things will change!".

    In Build conference you'll see a huge brainwashing hype (a.k.a. BUILD your heads) from Mr.Sinofsky (a.k.a. Silverlight who?)  how HTML/JS is so cool and it is best way you do it. And the stupidest of all you will do HTML but with Microsoft's tags(HTMLified). 

    In september I expect to see in Pete's blog articles like "The Present of  Silverlight and WPF!" and "A lap around HTML5!"

    P.S.: All I want is straight commitment about WP7 and WP8 and Silverlight!This summer I will write Android apps, because I must wait till september!

    P.S.: You can delete this or whatever, because I'm troll!:)

    Saturday, June 04, 2011 4:32 PM
  •  You r such a TROLL. You are the reason the last thread was closed down 

    I searched the internet and I found that a troll is a big, fat, stupid and ugly guy; who sent you my pictures :-)  ? I am also not stupid, just a slow learner :-)


    dumbest $hit I have ever heard like "I wish they would release service packs to speed up C#"

    Well, Google Chrome (the Microsoft competition) is releasing an improvement to their html5 + JavaScript application platform every 6 or 8 weeks, http://googlechromereleases.blogspot.com/ it has been happening for almost a year, and millions of people love that!

    Microsoft Internet Explorer struggled to match that, and for the first time in Microsoft history, Microsoft released IE9 final, and IE10 beta a few weeks after it, they just have no choice, they either make things better or the developers will look for something else.

    Not only that, Google went ahead and published the tasks they are working on, this is what is coming or already happened in Chrome http://www.chromium.org/developers/web-platform-status, Internet Explorer is now releasing new IE API every few weeks as well for the developers to review http://html5labs.interoperabilitybridges.com/


    @neoearth, the market wants performance, Microsoft ignored it, the competition came and give the market performance, this is not trolling, this is the plain truth!

    JavaScript is also easy to read, the same like C#, here is a link to one file from (Google Chrome source code), and of course Microsoft IE 9 did not release any source code as usual.

    http://www.google.com/codesearch/p#OAMlx_jo-ck/src/third_party/WebKit/Source/WebCore/inspector/front-end/DataGrid.js&d=2


    Saturday, June 04, 2011 5:10 PM
  • I just saw this in twitter and want direct it to Microsoft Money Makers - "Don't try to be different. Just be good. To be good is different enough".

    Saturday, June 04, 2011 5:26 PM
  • You guys are are sounding a little insecure..

    As developers you should take new technologies and store them in your toolbox.  Not blast them!  The world moved on after it was apparent MS was dropping Winform & C++/CLI.

    In my opinion, Silverlight (in-browser) and flash are only meant to do what plain html couldn't..and that is to display rich content.  Now, with the gap closing, Microsoft's strategoy makes perfect sense.  Who wants to download any runtime to run a simple application? 

    Besides, who's to say that you can't host a silverlight app in your html5 widget on win8?

    Saturday, June 04, 2011 5:31 PM
  • If you want to make a difference here , then take aim at Sinofsky, not "Microsoft". It is clearly Sinofsky and windows who are driving this decision: they have always hated .NET ever since Windows failed to use it properly in Vista.

    And yes, they are now chasing HTML5/JS miracles to save them from Steve Jobs, and they don't mind if they take down all of Microsoft's enterprise story along the way, as long as they get a few more apps for their appstore.

    So the argument is directly with Sinofsky: no one else at Microsoft. Go to BUILD and make it personal. The wrong decisions in this area can reduce the earning potential and productivity prospects of hundreds of thousands of enterprise devs and drag programming back to the stoneage.

    Saturday, June 04, 2011 5:51 PM
  • Yes, Sinofsky ( a.k.a. ".NET? Are you kidding me?") has a huge guilt.

    I think the problem is internal,the two teams (Windows and Dev Team) must cooperate with the keynotes (messages) and the technologies they make.

    It looks like the different teams in Microsoft are different companies, they don't talk each other.

    You see when Sinofsky make a statement, Dev team take a kick in the ass. And guys like Pete try to calm down us.

     This pleiad here just mirror how the Micorosoft devs work.

    Saturday, June 04, 2011 6:06 PM
  • In my opinion, Silverlight (in-browser) and flash are only meant to do what plain html couldn't..and that is to display rich content.  Now, with the gap closing, Microsoft's strategoy makes perfect sense.  Who wants to download any runtime to run a simple application? 

    Besides, who's to say that you can't host a silverlight app in your html5 widget on win8?

    That actually makes more sense to me now. I think about SharePoint 2010 that most pages are HTML/JavaScript, but there are several places that it utilize Siverlight if the plugin exists.


    In this case, when you create Siliverlight application on Windows 8 , Visual Studio could add special HTML5/JS project in the solution that can act as a host if you want to utlize widget capabality on Windows 8. This should be similar to when you have WebForms project hosting Silverlight on the Web Server.

    Brilliant!

    Microsoft, please tell us if this is true.

    Saturday, June 04, 2011 6:11 PM
  • If you want to make a difference here , then take aim at Sinofsky, not "Microsoft". It is clearly Sinofsky and windows who are driving this decision: they have always hated .NET ever since Windows failed to use it properly in Vista.

    We know who the bad guys are. The builders of the OS that you know and love. The OS that you've been troubleshooting, rebooting, reinstalling time and again.

    I bet people here are not that attracted to Windows.  As for myself, all I care about is C#, F# and a decent vector based UI framework built on these languages. The fact that these come bundled with Windows has been so far a mere annoyance. With Windows 8 it becomes a major problem.

    Saturday, June 04, 2011 6:15 PM
  • You guys are are sounding a little insecure..

    As developers you should take new technologies and store them in your toolbox.  Not blast them!  The world moved on after it was apparent MS was dropping Winform & C++/CLI.

    In my opinion, Silverlight (in-browser) and flash are only meant to do what plain html couldn't..and that is to display rich content.  Now, with the gap closing, Microsoft's strategoy makes perfect sense.  Who wants to download any runtime to run a simple application? 

    Besides, who's to say that you can't host a silverlight app in your html5 widget on win8?

    Yeah, the world moved on, not backwards.

    Most people complaining JS here do have Javascript developement experience (which is bad compared to their SL/.NET experience), while those Javascript supporters don't have much .NET and XAML experience to make the comparison. (just my feeling, no statistical data...:))

    I am not particularly in favor of Silverlight after seeing its more integration with OS. Cross-platform should be the way it goes. Otherwise, Microsoft should just fix WPF and make it native to whatever platforms they want to. Of course, I am not saying I am against Silverlight. It's still a solid choice in many cases.

    But, if Microsoft is going to trash XAML, or even the whole .NET framework, I will be leaving for good too.


    Saturday, June 04, 2011 6:45 PM
  • If you want to make a difference here , then take aim at Sinofsky, not "Microsoft".

    haha. I almost said the following yesterday - " That "HTML5/JS" thing sounds more like a personal victory announcement from somebody against somebody...".

    It's just too personal and won't help.

    Now I said it anyway. Hopefully I won't get banned soon...

    Saturday, June 04, 2011 6:55 PM
  • People are often puzzled when they learn that Apple spends way less than Microsoft on research. You'd think all that research ought to translate into great products. Where are they?

    Well, those products are the language innovations:  LINQ in C#, F# , Async in C#, TPL , Rx, compiler as a service etc.

    But why can't we see the benefit of these in consumer products?

    Well, because the consumer product is Windows and the Windows division has sworn on the bible that they will never use any managed code in the operating system. 

    They would rather use javascript.  

    They could have chosen to advance the field of programming.

    Instead, they chose to hold it back.

    The reason? To stick it to DevDiv.

    And that's how the world was condemned to two more decades of javascript.



    Saturday, June 04, 2011 7:03 PM
  • Trust me that the previous thread was visible at some of the highest levels inside Microsoft

    If you are listening I suggest you release a clarification post ASAP.

    September is way too long away to calm us Silverlight developers. We need to make decisions on what technogies to use for future products/sections as soon as we get information about them.

    All of the information points to HTML5/JS. Which as you can tell makes many of us feel sick.


    So if there is any chance Silverlight is planning for a v7 we need clarification ASAP.

    Saturday, June 04, 2011 7:23 PM
  • @ bitdisaster

    Quote: it's not the first time that HTML fails as primary development platform for devices. They have chosen the wrong captain for the team.



    It's not the first time MSFT switching gears / shifting strategies. I lived through the days when they moved from MFC to .Net and VB6 to VB.net. There's transition pain but in either case they were moving FORWARD to a BETTER solution so the pain didn't matter. This time - going for HTML5 - is a leap backward to stonage. It's scary for many reasons.


    This is not some rocket science difficult situation that one could be excused to make a mistake. All it takes is for the senior management @ Redmond to put 2 and 2 together to see that Html5+JS+CSS makes no sense, and yet they are not able to. Who are they trying to fool with statements such as  "This Application Platform ist based on html5, js and CSS. The most widely understood programming languanges of all times"?


    If HTML5 package is anywhere as capable as it's hyped up then ChromeOS should be fighting head to head with Win7 now and yet it's not. Google could not even ship their ChromeOS netbook on time (promised to be out during last holiday season). Those who test-ran it found it underwhelming. Google Docs would be chasing Office in the market and yet it's barely useful enough to attract people. The paid users of GDoc are so few Google would not even publish the numbers.


    If HTML5 could really provide "immerse" UX then who still buys Windows? Just download a Linux and then throw some cross-platform H5 Apps at it, and you'd have a desktop as immerse as Win7/8 for free. That's not happening. If it's not happening then the only conclusion you can draw is that H5 is not so capable as H5 salesmen want you to believe IN.


    And that's just among many signs I can point out that HTML5 is not a capable solution. If me, an average Joe developer, can figure it out easily and yet the brass @ Redmond cannot then it's clear the decision is not reached on technical merits but something else.


    Another troubling thing about is to see MSFT not believing in themselves. It's one thing Apple or Google rejecting SilverLight presense, respectively, in their iPhone and Android environment, which is all political bull and we understand it. It's completely another MSFT quiting it on their own and then turning around to embrace a HTML5 pretender.


    Like many web devlopers having pointed out the other day at C9 web site that they do HTML/JS merely b/c it's the only option not b/c it's good. They came on board of SilverLight b/c finally there's an attempt to make a solid framework for web development. Now a 180 degree reverse back to HTML5 stonage.


    Boy this is so pathetic.

    Saturday, June 04, 2011 8:27 PM
  • While Microsoft tells us developers to wait until September before jumping to any conclusions, the press certainly seems to understand what Microsoft is saying just as well as we do:

    "Note that these two generations of user interface will exist side-by-side only on PCs. Windows 8 will also run on devices powered by ARM chips made by a company called ARM Holdings. Traditionally, these chips power smartphones and tablets, and the slim operating systems designed for these mobile gadgets. Windows 8 will run on ARM devices, but the old interface will not be supported. ARM devices will run only the Metro UI, and the apps written for that platform.

    So both your PC and tablet will run Windows 8, but only your PC will be able to run your current version of Office or QuickBooks. On the tablet, you'll have to wait for new, Metro-specific versions to be created. " (my emphasis)

    And what will these applications be written in? The article already made this quite clear:

    "The interface is so new that applications will have to be re-written for it from the ground up, just like DOS applications had to be re-written for Windows. These new applications will have interesting qualities. For example, they'll be written in either HTML5 or JavaScript"

    The above is quoted from Mike Elgan's article on Computerworld:

    http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/9217296/Shock_Windows_8_optimized_for_desktop_tablets

    This certainly does not bode well for the future of Silverlight as a potential Windows 8 application platform.

     

    Saturday, June 04, 2011 10:55 PM
  • In my opinion, Silverlight (in-browser) and flash are only meant to do what plain html couldn't..and that is to display rich content.  Now, with the gap closing, Microsoft's strategoy makes perfect sense.  Who wants to download any runtime to run a simple application?

     

    I don't think the issue is the display. All though I like the richness of XAML, I am not particularly sold on XAML. MS hoped at some level that XAML would be HTML5 ... it's not. I think the issue is how adequate HTML5+JS+CSS is for writing not so web based applications. JS was originally added to HTML for 'view logic'. I shiver at the thought of having to write large apps in JavaScript : that was called classic ASP and it was horrible.

    Serious Android apps are written in Java. Serious iPad apps are written in Objective C. Serious Windows 8 apps are written in HTML5+Javascript ... really? 

    Not to mention that a browser is really a not so great hosting environment for an application. IE is one of the most unstable components I use within Windows each day. And one reason for moving to Silverlight was that I was getting sick & tired of all the unpredictable security issues, settings issues and unpredictable changes across different browser versions. Wait until hackers figure out how to leverage the access IE now has to the OS for hardware accelaration. Then the security model changes, impacts your app again ... I really hope it won't be that like, but it is seldom that we don't see history repeated again.

    Saturday, June 04, 2011 11:44 PM
  • Done: http://office.microsoft.com/web-apps/

    Not nearly as smooth or functional. My wife is quite handy with Office on her PC. I tried to get her to use these online versions and it caused her to just about have a heart attack working with large docs. Google Docs caused her to almost have a cow.

     

    The point is: I fully understand that javascript is a fully functional :) language. It's the HTML5+Javascript hosted inside a browser that doesn't apply to every application. I like writing compilers in C, I like writing raytracers in C++ and I like using term rewriters when I get really bored, and I like C# in SL when evaluating complex regression models. And with each of these languages there are very valid reasons for preferring one above the other. If MS likes writing their whole OS in Javascript that is fine, but if I am forced to useHTML5+ JS as the one single model for any app on Windows, I am switching my targeted OS (Java on Linux and Java on Android doesn't sound that bad).

     

     

     

     

    Sunday, June 05, 2011 12:17 AM
  • Do you guys think that Microsoft might have trouble porting .NET or even Silverlight to an ARM-based Windows 8? This is why Microsoft is trying to promote HTML5 as a new Windows 8 application model.

    Sunday, June 05, 2011 12:45 AM
  • If you can run Java on an Adroid phone ... and they already have SL running on WP7. From the little information they have provided us, the thought seems to be that HTML5+JS+CSS will allow them to access to a huge group of developers and provide cross platform support. That will give them apps in their app store and will help them sell W8 tables/pads. In reality, HTML+JS+CSS is probably one of the least well-known and most difficult to understand development environments out there. Because every hosting environment (browser) seems to handle it different. That story has only been getting better for programmers due to javascript libraries that try to hide all those differences from you.

    Too bad though that they seem to be dropping non web-based applications which are still very common in corporate environments. In fact, most of the web based apps I have seen in corporate environments are horribly inadequate (for handling large amounts of data) and backward (PeopleSoft web interface sucks for example).

    I don't see any need for dropping non web-based apps on W8. In fact, iOS and Android have non-web-based apps. So MS would actually be taking quite a risk being the only one that only supports HTML5+JS+CSS on tablets/pads.

    In my experience, people most handy with HTML5+JS+CSS are web designers. With many easier web apps, 'programming' just involves making a couple of calls into libraries, etc.  In SL there is also a clear difference between a designer and a programmer. Obviously MS will not tell us if HTML5+JS+CSS is just a replacement for XAML or if .NET is being completely retired on the client side. I think the people most worried right now are the programmers, not the designers. I think there are many more designers (the ones that actually understand feel&look and studied many years for that) that are familiar with HTML5 than there are designers that are handy with XAML. That's in fact one of the pain points: not many are handy with blending XAML. Programmers (the ones spending years learning how the derive algorithms from specs) are worried about having to convert all their C# to Javascript and no longer having all the binding goodness that MS has been promoting (like INotifyPropertyChanged) and needing to rewrite all that.

    Personally, having current experience in both SL and web based apps, I am most concerned about security (See for example http://rebuildingtheweb.com/en/html5-shortcomings/ ) and handling large amounts of data in a web app. MS has to realize at some level that Windows 8 is not only for tablets/pads/phone's but also for more traditional environments ... right? And that the most value they can provide is in making server/desktop/tablet/pad/phone a highly integrated story ... both for developers and consumers.

    Sunday, June 05, 2011 1:13 AM
  • In september I expect to see in Pete's blog articles like "The Present of  Silverlight and WPF!" and "A lap around HTML5!"

    I'm not a good Javascript developer. I dabble from time to time just with my site, but I have other people on my team who are currently doing an awesome job covering that side (Jon and Joe). Plus, if you knew me or my history in the WPF and Silverlight community (I doubt you do given your newness here), I'm not really one for party-line messaging.

    History will be the only thing that shows what I do in September. Anything else is just additional speculation.

    Until then, fire away. Going after me is easy at the moment (as a community guy, I expect this), but unfortunately that's doing nothing to further your purposes. I'm not offended, but I feel like if you'd apply that energy to a different approach, you might accomplish something.

    FWIW, With the exception of the few posts that came in afte the thread lock in the old thread (*I* think there was a race condition there, but the site dev team doesn't quite agree<g>), I haven't deleted posts criticizing me or Microsoft, just those attacking other members, and none in this new thread so far.

    Pete

    Sunday, June 05, 2011 1:52 AM
  • "The interface is so new that applications will have to be re-written for it from the ground up, just like DOS applications had to be re-written for Windows. These new applications will have interesting qualities. For example, they'll be written in either HTML5 or JavaScript"

    Unless it came directly from the mouth of Microsoft - specifically through our press releases, it's not "fact". It's "speculation".

    Unfortunately, that's what news outlets do - it helps to pull in readers when they appear to be offering additional detail. They don't have access to any more detail than the rest of the public.

    Pete

    Sunday, June 05, 2011 2:02 AM
  • Today's Microsoft are just a bunch of open-standards hugging wieners. If Bill was still in charge, no way this conferance was to be named //build/! It whould have the right name: \\build\.

    Sunday, June 05, 2011 2:58 AM
  • Unless it came directly from the mouth of Microsoft
    -

    because hardware accelerated HTML is at the basis of the Windows 8 developer platform
     

    Well, at least JavaScript isn't mentioned here. I guess the best thing one could hope for is the ability to use c# with html5.

    Sunday, June 05, 2011 3:44 AM
  • In september I expect to see in Pete's blog articles like "The Present of  Silverlight and WPF!" and "A lap around HTML5!"

    I'm not a good Javascript developer. I dabble from time to time just with my site, but I have other people on my team who are currently doing an awesome job covering that side (Jon and Joe). Plus, if you knew me or my history in the WPF and Silverlight community (I doubt you do given your newness here), I'm not really one for party-line messaging.

    History will be the only thing that shows what I do in September. Anything else is just additional speculation.

    Until then, fire away. Going after me is easy at the moment (as a community guy, I expect this), but unfortunately that's doing nothing to further your purposes. I'm not offended, but I feel like if you'd apply that energy to a different approach, you might accomplish something.

    FWIW, With the exception of the few posts that came in afte the thread lock in the old thread (*I* think there was a race condition there, but the site dev team doesn't quite agree<g>), I haven't deleted posts criticizing me or Microsoft, just those attacking other members, and none in this new thread so far.

    Pete

    That was not direct to you!I'm fully respectful to you and to your job. You and Jesse are my favourite who to follow in your blogs and in Twitter.

    I take your notes. But my notice was what I expect from the Community Management and Evangelism in Microsoft at all.

    Sorry that I mentioned your name in this - was unfair.

    Edited:

    Yes I'm new here but not new in WM and WP. And like I said I'm a troll:)

    Sunday, June 05, 2011 5:53 AM
  • After reading all these reactions I was a little worried but could not believe that Silverlight or WPF would be retired (thinking that MS will abandon .NET is like saying that Apple will not produce new iPhones or iPads). So, I started to look for more information and after some googling I found this Channel 9 video in which Steve Ballmer talks about developing for Windows 8. Interesting part starts at about 35 min.

    This is what he, IMO, explicitly says:

    • Languages for building native applications are C++, C# and JavaScript. By C# he might refer to all .NET languages.
    • There will be tools for Windows 8 for all languages.
    • And, most importantly, HTML is a rendering surface.

    What I take from it is this: there will be some kind of a tight integration between native and managed languages and HTML layer on Windows 8. I can see how XAML could be translated to “low level” HTML and JS.

    If this is true, it opens a lot of possibilities and developing for .NET and Windows just got more exiting.

    Sunday, June 05, 2011 6:43 AM
  • I couldn't watch the video because it kept stopping about when Steve was supposed to take the stage, but that doesn't mention SL.

    So maybe they are figuring a .Net language + HTML5 + SVG would do what Silverlight does so we don't need SL?

    Wish we knew instead of speculating.  Going to be a lot of interesting talk in September after //Build/...

    Sunday, June 05, 2011 8:56 AM
  • @UBIK2 - Thank you so much!!

    This was EXACTLY the clear and direct sort of message we all need to hear.  I agree with your interpretation of the video for sure.

    It makes a lot of sense.  Invest in ONE rendering methodology (HTML5-based,) and enable language support for the broad-based lowest common denominator (JS,) the high performance legacy (C++,) and the modern, evolved, productivity language (C#/SL.)

    Then it all comes back to Microsoft's deafening silence.  Behaviorally, if Ballmer has already provided his clarifying comment to the world (well at least to Switzerland,) why can't we get the rest of Microsoft to simply break the silence, remove the FUD, and allow us all to get excited about the future of wicked fast rendering in Windows8 combined with the developer productivity of Silverlight and C#?

    Unless, drumroll please... 

    (Enter the FUD produced by the deafening silence)  Ballmer's comments are no longer the plan for some unknown reason.... 

    Sunday, June 05, 2011 9:17 AM
  • You guys are outta control lol

    Silverlight isn't going anywhere anytime soon. If anyone has seen any of the videos, you'll see that there is still a full OS sitting underneath (and probably sitting with .net 4 and silverlight preinstalled). If office can run (which i assume uses MFC) then bet your butt .net/silverlight will be there as well. So what are we talking about here...using html5+JS for widgets? Sorry but this same idea has been around since windows vista (http://vista.gallery.microsoft.com/vista/SideBar.aspx)

    EDIT:

    Like i said in another post:

    VB6 was actually EOL in April 2008 and it took MS 5 years to finally drop vb6 from windows. Also, look at how many winform applications are still out in the wild? By the time MS drops silverlight on its head HTML5 will be the de facto.

    Sunday, June 05, 2011 9:20 AM
  • Honestly, and I know this won't be the general sentiment here, I wouldn't be too upset if Silverlight transitioned into something that was .NET + HTML5 instead of .NET + XAML.   Replacing the markup language doesn't upset me too much--I can easily transition to HTML as a markup language as long as .NET gives me a good way to work with it.  That isn't some giant step backwards.  What would p*** me off to no end, probably to the point that I would most likely abandon the platform,  would be being forced to move from .NET to JavaScript.

    Of course, using HTML5 as the markup language for Windows would almost invariably mean that Microsoft was "embracing and extending" because you would pretty much have to have custom stuff in there, given the glacial pace that the standards body moves at.

    Sunday, June 05, 2011 9:20 AM
  • Html5+JavaScript5+Css3 = going backward?

    I am not sure if html5 is going backward, the old html in IE6 is maybe backward, but html5 in IE9 or Google Chrome is defiantly forward.

    • I always wanted to define variables and sometimes not to define them, C# will only accept defined variables, and JavaScript 5 (EcmaScript 5) now accepts both.
    • I always wanted a relaxed markup language, html5 can be strict or relaxed, and WPF / Silverlight can’t, it is always strict.
    • The html markup irritates me a bit, WPF markup makes me happy, but I got used to the html5 markup, and I am happy that I can now introduce any markup I want in html5.
    • I always searched for performance; I never ever had a client really happy, we have 400+ people using our internal applications and we never made them happy, it is always about performance, and finally html5 +js5 are working hard to give us the best performance, WPF and Silverlight does not!
    • I am pro compiling, things must be compiled to machine language, but compiling C# to MSIL, and MSIL is like another scripting language with a fancy name, and it is still slower than JavaScript in Google V8.
    • I am pro ngen, maybe this will fix the problem, but again, how does ngen compile List<int> to machine language? Or how does reflection work in machine language? it does not, and there is so much in the new framework build on generics.
    • Ngen does not work in the browser, and you must follow strict installation instructions as an administrator, JavaScript does not need all of that, and it delivers better performance, so what is the point of ngen?
    • I want a responsive development environment, I want to write code and run it and not wait at all, I want to be able to test things, modify a bit, try again, and develop, I don’t want to be slowed down by “Compiling”, “Building”, “Attaching”, “Starting”, etc.; Don’t understand me wrong, I will compile the project later for full verification, but it does not make sense to repeat that compiler over and over again and lose thousands of hours of developers time, and JavaScript + Html5 does not have that problem.
    • F12 in IE9 or Ctrl+Shift+J are the fastest debuggers I have ever seen, that does not exist in Silverlight and C#.
    • Everything must be an object, that is C#, even the first call who is a function must be inside an object but marked as a function, and in JavaScript it is up to me, I want objects I write objects, I want function calls, I write function calls, I am free, in C#/Silverlight I am not!
    • User Interface to code behind communication, C# to Silverlight is much slower than JS to Html Dom.
    • Serialization, you have to go through a lot of complexity to transfer things from the client to the server, and the performance is still poor, try WCF, then try JSON in JavaScript, in JSON the text itself can be treated as an object directly, incredible de serialization!
    • Many additional technologies are introduced to html5, 3d graphics in WebGl, GPU acceleration, local file system, local database, web workers “multi threading”, background apps “windows services”, and much more.
    • Anytime you want to add more features to JavaScript, for example, if you want to get all Windows 7 API to JavaScript; then write a small plugin in C++ to marshal the calls both ways, and you got full access to Windows, no different than any C# or WPF application, it is the same there.

    Is really html5 going backward?

    Sunday, June 05, 2011 9:23 AM
  • I don't really think this is primarily about a technology comparison.

    Its about openness of communication to your partners, roadmap discipline, and long term vision.

    A good partner openly communicates roadmaps when the information is not business sensitive.  Silverlight support on Windows 8 is not business sensitive.

    Strong technology partners, driven by a uniform vision for their business commit to technologies and roadmaps and DO NOT waver in them because doing so absolutely crushes the momentum you have and devestates TRUST. 

    We can compare HTML5 versus SL versus JS versus whatever all day long, but silence, lack of vision, and roadmap schizophrenia are NOT the traits I want to see out of my favorite technology supplier.

    Sunday, June 05, 2011 9:55 AM
  • My company is doing a huge enterprise solution for the past years written in .net only (WCF and NHibernate on the server, WPF for the clients). I’m the leading architect of the client software and therefore invested a lot of time in WPF/XAML. Right now we plan to realize a web portal for our solution using Silverlight. Regarding the latest news we really have to overthink that idea.

    The past days I thought on how I would realize the portal using HTML 5 and JS. I have to admit, that we could do a lot of things like animations, input validation and so on, too.  On the other hand, I think there a lot of things we will not be able to do. Maybe I don’t get the whole story yet. HTML 5 and JS for the Presentation Layer? Maybe. JS for the UI Logic? I don’t think that would work. Silverlight/WPF is much more than a rendering technology. We have Triggers, Databinding, ValueConverters, MarkupExcentions and a lot more.

    @g.t.: I have to agree with you in some points. In fact more than I like to! Since I’m not a HTML5 or JS crack, I cannot figure out how I would build a big LOB with HTML 5 and JS only right now. Maybe I should (have to) change that in the near feature. :)

    Sunday, June 05, 2011 9:57 AM
  • I always wanted to define variables and sometimes not to define them, C# will only accept defined variables, and JavaScript 5 (EcmaScript 5) now accepts both

    I've never heard of any plans about introducing optional static typing in javascript. Care to provide the source?

    MSIL is like another scripting language

    This phrase sounds like trolling, but whatever. MSIL is an assembly language of sorts, and during program execution it usually compiles to native code. Modern javascript languages do almost the same. But all of that has little to do with the language performance. There have been lots of efforts aimed at making javascript faster, but there are limits as to how far you can push the performance of a dynamic language. Luajit and Javascript demonstrate them, in some tests they (lua in particular) are almost as fast as c++, but in others they utterly fail. Javascript optimizations are brittle, and if you don't write the code in the anticipated way, then the assumptions they rely on cease to exist, so the optimizations just won't kick in. Statically typed languages don't have such problems.

    It's WPF that is slow, not dotnet or c# in particular. C# is (almost) perfectly fine in terms of performance. Here is a link for you:

    http://shootout.alioth.debian.org/u32/benchmark.php?test=all&lang=v8&lang2=csharp

    Sunday, June 05, 2011 10:24 AM
  • Sorry.  Moving from .NET to Javascript is a HUGE step backwards.  I can see how someone who hasn't worked in C# or even C++ wouldn't understand this, but it is.  I'm sure back in the day there were a lot of VB6 developers who thought VB was just as good as C++ as well.

    As for Silverlight performance, if you aren't getting performance out of it, you are doing something wrong.  Our customers have been thrilled with the performance.  We had a few issues in Silveright V2, but they've all been addressed now.  The most common comment we get is "this is so much better than what we usually see on the web--it's like running a native desktop application". 

    Sunday, June 05, 2011 10:31 AM
  • I found this Channel 9 video in which Steve Ballmer talks about developing for Windows 8. Interesting part starts at about 35 min.

    This is what he, IMO, explicitly says:

    • Languages for building native applications are C++, C# and JavaScript. By C# he might refer to all .NET languages.
    • There will be tools for Windows 8 for all languages.
    • And, most importantly, HTML is a rendering surface.

    HTML is a rendering surface...Here's an interpretation that would make everyone happy and make Silverlight instantly cross-platform. Allow for compiling Silverlight apps to HTML5/Javascript. If they could make it work, it would be a brilliant stroke by Microsoft. And it's not that far out there.

    We already know some C# can be compiled to Javascript via Script#. We also know the gap between what Silverlight can do visually is being bridged by HTML5. Instead of a Silverlight plug-in, Silverlight apps get deployed as HTML5/Javascript where Microsoft writes all the Javascript libraries to handle the implementation details.

    No more plug-in and instant ability to run on Android, iPhone, Windows Phone, and any other HTML5/Javascript capable device. This would be a move that seems to fit within what we've been hearing and could give everyone what they want. Of course this is pure speculation.

     

    Sunday, June 05, 2011 12:10 PM
  • From a marketing aspect, I am also wondering if associating W8 with IE that strongly will have a positive effect. In my experience, IE doesn't receive a lot of love. Most people just view IE9 is MS catching up, not as IE9 being the new shiny example of what a browser should be. Granted, not as bad as calling W8 'Vista 2', but it might be close.

    Previously it was pointed out thatthere is a gap between XAML and HTML5  (pointed out by MS themselves, for example http://www.nikhilk.net/HTML5-Thoughts.aspx ). Granted, HTML is a widely acccepted standard, XAML is not :). But for my apps, I just want to render a UI. I don't care about the semantics of the UI as a hypertext document (and if you ever read up an the semantic web, you know HTML and its latest iteration HTML5 have somewhat questionable semantics, see http://www.alistapart.com/articles/semanticsinhtml5 ).

    In the end MS, we just wanted to know where things are heading, so we don't make a decision right now to put million dollar investments in technology that will be left in the dust next year. Similar stuff happened though when we transitioned to .NET: the guidance that came out of MS was confusing and insane (some of the worste advice came from the MS sales reps).

    IMHO SL didn't get really interesting for LOB until SL4. Since it now looks like SL5 will be the last SL ever, that is ironic. Lets wait another couple of years until a development environment becomes mature enough to actually build things in (.NET 1.0 and .NET 1.1 were also really not that good, it wasn't until .NET 2.0 that I had something like 'You know. This is shapening up to something that's actual useful and helpful.'). When you then also take into consideration that WPF looks like it is being impacted by the HTML5 paradigm shift, then in the meantime we'll just have to make do with the one dev environment from MS that is still standing: ASP.NET.  

    Sunday, June 05, 2011 2:07 PM
  • I think it's too late for Silverlight now. September will be beyond hope of bringing any life back to it. 

    I work for a close MS partner, and I'm being told by the CEO and CTO that since MS is moving away from SL to HTML5, we need to also. How many other places is this happening now? From what I hear, an avalanche.

    Several years of fine honing skills in MS SL and .NET down the drain ... I will not be learning any MS platforms from here on out. Going to focus on Droid and iPhone now and hope these companies never maroon me like this.

    Sunday, June 05, 2011 2:08 PM
  • Exactly, the main concern I have, is moving from C# to Javascript. If I do need to shift to javascript, then, there is nothing Microsoft has to offere me, I have an open field of competitors to look at.

    Sunday, June 05, 2011 2:38 PM
  • Why doesn't the Silverlight.net home page get updated as often as it used to?

    The blogs keep coming, but what about the News, Community Samples?  There used to be loads of samples now theres about 5 a month if were lucky.

    The showcase hasn't been updated for ages, there used to be 10+ new showcases every 2 weeks or so, what's happened to that?

    Silverlight has a future I'm sure, I just wonder what exactly it is.

    Sunday, June 05, 2011 2:41 PM
  • Why doesn't the Silverlight.net home page get updated as often as it used to?

    The blogs keep coming, but what about the News, Community Samples?  There used to be loads of samples now theres about 5 a month if were lucky.

    The showcase hasn't been updated for ages, there used to be 10+ new showcases every 2 weeks or so, what's happened to that?

    Silverlight has a future I'm sure, I just wonder what exactly it is.

    I curate a fair bit of this stuff. Here's an explanation

    Community Samples: They need to be written by the community. They're just not coming as quickly as they used to. This is both because what's there already covers almost all the easy scenarios, and because many Silverlight devs are doing WP7

    Showcase: I took it upon myself to start weeding out old stuff, and to raise the bar for new submissions. Showcase needs to be showcase-level material, not a dumping ground. While I'm not yet where I want to be there, we have certainly rejected a lot more things than we had before. If the submission doesn't meet the bar and they're willing to include source code, I ask them to submit to the community samples.

    Even blogging has slowed down. That's partially because it's the summer, partially because folks are waiting for the next release, and partially because many Silverlight devs are doing WP7 work.

    FWIW, we're also working on the next version of this site. Check it out at http://beta.silverlight.net

    Just some insight :)

    Pete

    Sunday, June 05, 2011 2:53 PM
  • Html5+JavaScript5+Css3 = going backward?

     

    • I always searched for performance; I never ever had a client really happy, we have 400+ people using our internal applications and we never made them happy, it is always about performance, and finally html5 +js5 are working hard to give us the best performance, WPF and Silverlight does not!
    • I am pro compiling, things must be compiled to machine language, but compiling C# to MSIL, and MSIL is like another scripting language with a fancy name, and it is still slower than JavaScript in Google V8.
    • I am pro ngen, maybe this will fix the problem, but again, how does ngen compile List<int> to machine language? Or how does reflection work in machine language? it does not, and there is so much in the new framework build on generics.

     

    I don't program in SL and I've registered here just for you. Take it as advice from a friend: If you're truly serious, LEARN immediately something about compilers, assembler, interpreters etc.

    I can't believe you work as a programmer. My God!

     

    Especially this:

     

    how does ngen compile List<int> to machine language? Or how does reflection work in machine language?

    Tell me you're trolling, man! Just a clue: Everything is machine language at the end.  No processor understands a string of "List<int>" (or a string for that matter).

    Sunday, June 05, 2011 3:35 PM
  • Just a quick reminder for folks to keep it civil. I've seen a few posts that are starting to lean a little too far over the edge. Let's keep language wars out (you won't resolve anything), and no personal attacks.

    Thanks.

    Pete

    Sunday, June 05, 2011 3:43 PM
  • But at the core (no matter if it is true or not): this has caused a tremendous amount of damage to MS based development. The hall way rumor has been for the last year that SL is dead. I am sure next week the hall way rumor is that XAML is completely dead. So .... for example: if you ar laying out a multi-year program for replacing a huge number of apps that are critical and need to be supported for at least 10-15 years across whatever happens during that time period, do I stick my neck out right now and say 'Go MS!' or do I say 'Go JAVA!'. Up until Friday my plan was to say 'Go MS!'. Right now ... not so. Believe me, Oracle/JAVA are a strong force out there and MS is not helping itself right now in that space. Give the corporate entities what they want: stability (so they can manage skillsets, reduce maintenance cost,etc) & evolution (not revolution).

    Sunday, June 05, 2011 3:45 PM
  • @Pete I hope the response to this is not more silence. The simple way to quell the whole thing is to provide clear guidance. The most perplexing part of this is to blab HALF a story (html5) and then rationalize away the other half (Silverlight/.net) by claiming a policy of silence. Many companies, particularly those in the tools space share their direction in order to provide the stability and time to plan for their partners (as mr2 says above.). Again, it's perplexing to hear information shared for a new target user in the html5/ms crowd and nothing for your installed user base other than a brief nod to classic app compatibility. To your point though, I would have rather had just a demo of Windows8 and absolute silence on dev tools and languages until you were ready to tell the whole of that tory. Half stories are far worse than no story. Dave
    Sunday, June 05, 2011 4:01 PM
  • Here is what MS has got themselves into. There are companies who today are creating significant (i.e. expensive to develop) mobile applications. Many of them want to use their existing .net code and technological knowledge. Unless there are assurances that this code and technology will run on ARM Windows 8 devices they may very well opt for a Java Android or other non MS solution. Any kind of virtuol mode or penalty box for these applications is of course an unacceptable crock. Not to mention totally different development strategies for phones and tablets is bizarre. If MS truly believes in HTMlL/JS for mobile devices why didn't they go that way with Windows Phone 7?

    A pretty, elegant or easy to use shell UI is can be a nice selling feature to end users. It does nothing for developers.

    Sunday, June 05, 2011 4:24 PM
  • Many companies have been postponing jumping on the iPad wagon because we mentioned that from a corporate dev standpoint iPad did not provide the story we wanted. If W8 won't provide that story either, lets roll in the iPads :) . I know the users love their iPhone's/iPad's.

    Sunday, June 05, 2011 4:44 PM
  • A pretty, elegant or easy to use shell UI is can be a nice selling feature to end users. It does nothing for developers.

    And here we get to the crux. That demonstration video was not for developers. //build/ is for developers. HTML was mentioned as pretty much everyone gets it, even non-developers. And, quite frankly, that's pretty cool that we're doing that; a company that has gotten (in some cases, deserved) flak for not adopting standards is now incorporating one into the heart of their flagship product.

    Yes, we mentioned HTML, but no one showed code. If it was meant for developers, you *know* we'd have had someone up there with an IDE open.

    So: that demo, the walk-through video, and the related press release were all for non-devs, //build/ is for devs.

    Pete

    Sunday, June 05, 2011 5:06 PM
  • I can see one potential benefit: JScript.NET might get some love again.

    MS could have gone the other way just as well. Figure out how to render HTML5+CSS+JS inside Silverlight, and have one compact, cross platform, application platform. Wouldn't they in many ways be dealing with the same issues trying to get IE10 to go cross platform (WP7, W8 on PC, W8 on ARM) as they dealt with trying to get SL to go cross platform?

    I might just go to //build/ to see what they will tell us then.

    Sunday, June 05, 2011 7:49 PM
  • I too am the biggest evanglist for SL in my company. We have, I think, a real kick-butt UX. Many current and potential clients have complimented us on it, and that it's so different (hopefully that means better :) ) than competitors and other types of apps.

    Silverlight allowed:

    • to leverage existing .NET experience
    • to style pretty much every part of every component
    • us to utilize the tight integration of RIA Services 
    • not to worry about everything looking and working the same on all browsers/platforms
    • not having to use 3rd party plugins to do "core" functionality

    All made this possbile to come to market quite a bit quicker than if it was in straight HTML/js/ajax.

    ***

    A co-worker who plays a big part in our product came to me and the other SL supporter and said in October that "even MS said that HTML5 is the way to".

    Next at MIX, SL took a huge back seat to the HTML5 hooplah.

    Now in the Win 8 previews, HTML5 is a first class citizen, with nary a mention of .NET other than it being included in the, effectively, legacy support.

    ***

    Granted Win 8 is still has a ways to go, and there hopefully be more information before/after "Build". I'm guessing that .NET will be supported on ARM, in that it's in the group of "Win 7 apps that can run in Win 8".

    I'm excited by the new interface -- it looks like a big step forward, keeps up with the times and I see why Ballmer said it was risky. I can see our app utilizing the tiles.

    It will take a while before Win 8 has the market acceptance. Hopefully by then HTML5 will have been fully ratified and is fully implimented across the board by then.

    Sunday, June 05, 2011 9:27 PM
  • @ubik2: "After reading all these reactions I was a little worried but could not believe that Silverlight or WPF would be retired (thinking that MS will abandon .NET is like saying that Apple will not produce new iPhones or iPads). So, I started to look for more information and after some googling I found this Channel 9 video in which Steve Ballmer talks about developing for Windows 8. Interesting part starts at about 35 min.

    This is what he, IMO, explicitly says:

    • Languages for building native applications are C++, C# and JavaScript. By C# he might refer to all .NET languages.
    • There will be tools for Windows 8 for all languages.
    • And, most importantly, HTML is a rendering surface

    ..."


    Cool,

    so now point I can any new costomer to channel zero video and make him listen to SB so then I can say: looook, here at minute 42:42 it is, you can code still in C# and it will be great future of programming software development it does like look. Not scared you need be. He said word in two seconds. We will now do our 1/5 milltion EUR deal based on that, and 3 mothns later see we will if screwed up he has or not and if 1/5 million EUR went down toilet has or not.

    Hamlet would so be proud of such a sweet legacy.

    Best regards,

    Kasimier Buchcik

    Sunday, June 05, 2011 9:43 PM
  • You guys are outta control lol

    Silverlight isn't going anywhere anytime soon. If anyone has seen any of the videos, you'll see that there is still a full OS sitting underneath (and probably sitting with .net 4 and silverlight preinstalled). If office can run (which i assume uses MFC) then bet your butt .net/silverlight will be there as well. So what are we talking about here...using html5+JS for widgets? Sorry but this same idea has been around since windows vista (http://vista.gallery.microsoft.com/vista/SideBar.aspx)

    EDIT:

    Like i said in another post:

    VB6 was actually EOL in April 2008 and it took MS 5 years to finally drop vb6 from windows. Also, look at how many winform applications are still out in the wild? By the time MS drops silverlight on its head HTML5 will be the de facto.

    The world has changed, carter. Unfortunately our costomers are nowadays able to read news about what MS is up to in the future. So, in contrast to the naive old days, most of us will have a hard time to code using a technology that is doomed to run out in the next 5 years. Most of the customers just don't what that. They want their apps to live forever. It's silly but this is how it works. Any sight of death or even rumors are veeeery hard to sell to customers. This is why I'm currently worried about the currently promoted half-baked HTML/JS and the potentially doomed .NET. It's a paradox. You can't do real LOB application currently with HTML/JS, and you don't know if you are allowed to do .NET. So just take a break, do some woodwork, try not to use the hard drugs and wait for MS to resolve the paradox. Wear a t-shirt: "I'm in paradox-mode".

    Best regards,

    Kasimier Buchcik


    Sunday, June 05, 2011 10:16 PM
  • "What if we say no, and that that's simply unacceptable? I for one am willing to withdraw my app from the marketplace. Anybody else?"

    Jackbond:

    I'll join you in delisting my WP7 marketplace app. It has more than 10,000 downloads, 50+ reviews and a 4.5 / 5.0 rating.  I put it up for free without ads.   Therefore, just as Microsoft has a choice to send destructive messaging, I too have a choice to not build software on their platform.  Let me know the planned date and I'll remove it from the marketplace.

    As of 12AM CST, WP7 "Free Pop" users have played 296,419 games and amassed 356 days, 10 hours of play time.

    Monday, June 06, 2011 12:37 AM
  • If silverlight is not cross platform then in order to create rich animation and ads we have to use flash, once i use flash why the hack should i even know silverlight? If we have to write in javascript to create a cross platform RIA we have a world of tools for that, eclipse,dreamweaver, and many other html/js designers. If we want to create RIA for an already popular desktop and tablet device we have MAC,IPads and Objective-C; again using eclipse, which is surely better then javascript. so the only reason we kept developing/ paying money for tools and actualy using windows was because there was something magical there, and its name is C#/WPF/Silverlight.

    Silverlight is dead for rich animations for the web, Microsoft said that clearly. from Microsfot's messaging we see clearly that silverlight's purpose is for WP7 and WP7 only. not for the web. we dont yet know Microsoft's capabilites as it relates to HTML&Javascript, so far JS and HTML design support they are doing a poor job compared to others.

    So again, if i need to learn other technologies to do what is flashy and clients want, then why the hack should we developers even look at Microsoft's side?

    Monday, June 06, 2011 1:51 AM
  • @Pete: I think Microsoft can avoid embarrasment and developer anger by giving a little more thought before doing demos. Whether its a first demo or second, a technology that Microsoft has been touting as the best (such as Silverlight and .NET) for the past 3 to 10 years respectively deserves more respect than what was given! The message from Microsoft should be simple and clear: WE 100% support .NET and Silverlight as FIRST CLASS development platform/tool for Windows 8. Period. How hard was that to say? Why should it even be an issue for you guys to say that?! HTML 5 and Javascript?! Are you guys really working for Microsoft?! Neither HTML 5 nor Javascript is your product. While I understand you want to attract a broader audience of developers, you guys are blatantly ignoring your core developers - the ones that make your product (Windows) popular. Javascript is not even a proper programming language - its a crappy scripting language. How can Microsoft even think of using it as a app development tool for Windows 8?!!

    Microsoft has wasted the potential and the power of Silverlight. Another dream down the drain...

    Monday, June 06, 2011 2:03 AM
  • I have an idea for Microsoft, maybe they should create an option "View Source" when right clicking on a silverlight application and open a notpad window showing XAML code and C#, maybe those Web Developers who are yearning for "Open Source" maybe if they actualy "see the code" they will see "the beautifull XAML and C# code" maybe they will embrace it as the next Web language? hmm maybe we can have a future of browsers with real code in it?

    http://dotnet.uservoice.com/forums/4325-silverlight-feature-suggestions/suggestions/1905605-allow-viewing-source-of-silverlight-code?ref=title

    Monday, June 06, 2011 2:15 AM
  • I hope that the highest levels inside Microsoft read this, understand our P.O.V.s and reach a conclusion what they did and what must be done.

    Let Steve B. be in charge of all this thoughts and explain us in BUILD how Microsoft (will) position HTML/JS and .NET.

    And if Mr. Sinofsky say that Silverlight(WPF) is strategic product for Microsoft, that will be one small step for a man, one giant leap for devs.

    Monday, June 06, 2011 3:41 AM
  • Having really looked at this situation over the weekend (and indeed the last 7 months) I feel that the problem is down to the whole developer v designer issue.

    MS tried and failed to engage designers with the Expression suite of tools and we are all paying the price of not having creatives on board in Microsoft land. Design is always seen as the last thing we do from a developers perspective and its seen as easy. Its not respected by us (witness the amount of dev's who still think developing apps in VS2010 rather than Blend for silverlight is cool).

    At the end of the day the creative minds from the design field are the ones who are creating the "killer apps". They are designing the Spotify's, the Instagrams, the Angry Birds, the Call Of Duties, the BaseCamp's etc..

    Designers or developers with good taste in design are making iOS, Adobe Flash, the Web etc.. relevant. They are designing the new user experiences that are making customers actually "fall in love" with programs and not just treat them as raw utilities.

    MS needs to engage with those people. Thats why Html5 / JS is important. Its what "those" people know. Designers are opposite to us. They HATE learning new stuff. They want to concentrate on their core design skills and keep their core tools (Adobe CS 5 suite). They aint changing. MS couldnt get them to do it with Expression.

    The desire for us as dev's to keep Silverlight is based on the fact that it makes our lives easier. But we tend not to make the tools that would make Microsofts life easier. We dont make these amazing looking killer apps that the iOS guys do. We dont respect that side of the game. So in some ways we have ourselves to blame.

    WPF/SL/Xaml has not inspired any killer consumer facing apps in its 5 + year history. Nothing made with those tools would make joe public reach for their wallet. There is nothing compelling. I'm dissapointed, but I can see why MS are pivoting.

    At the end of the day in my industry (Finance) I dont see SL going anywhere. If WPF is still comanding jobs for £500 + a day in the City then I cant see the City boys given up on SL unless MS offically says its over. Its too useful a LOB tool. But SL as a consumer facing multi platform front end tool was dead from 7 months ago. I cant see WP7 Silverlight surviving either.

    Finally, the reason why everyone is stressed is MS are the only company who do this. They have killed so many languages, tools etc.. or political reasons or other (J#). They have previous. Developers know whats going to happen because they know MS. Thats why their scared. No ther company shafts people like MS. Livelyhoods are at stake here. If you have spent 3 yrs learning one "ultra complicated" tool and cant get a job, its over. Its hard to retrain or be out of the market for a while in programming because no recruiter believes you can do the job anymore. We take huge career gambles as developers (far more than any other career) by having to pick a tool set. I can see my many dev's are upset.




     





    Monday, June 06, 2011 7:34 AM
  • I can't wait javasript version of adobe photoshop.
    It must be great on win8! Surprised

    Monday, June 06, 2011 9:34 AM
  •  That is good news if it actually means MS is continuing support.  Not sure though that is what it means. Granted, I understand the movement toward HTML5+CSS+Javascript. But unless the world has changed drastically without telling us, there are always going to be different application stacks. The move to HTML5+CSS+Javascript is going to be slow though. With the number of applications out there, they are not all going to be supporting HTML5 anytime soon. In fact, some of the last vendor provided applications that still required IE6 are only just being flushed out. Many companies are right now standardizing on W7+IE8. With the incompatibilities that IE9 introduced, it will probably be a while before IE9 or IE10 get accepted. In a world like that, I still find the argument for a plugin that allows you to deliver the same user experience across different browser versions compelling. But it sounds like Silverlight might no longer be needed as a plugin. We'll just be able to very quickly deliver WPF apps (as fast or faster than we can deliver SL apps now) to run on the client side :) . 

    The only amusing thing is how happy MS seems to be with their new IE9 and hardware accelerated HTML5 (TM ?). Sorry, but marketing guys crack me up. Finally utilizing the GPU seems to be celebrated as a major milestone (although I remember already studying a TI GPU chipset in 1995 ... oh well, 16 years of progress :)). Must be because now you can tell people they have to buy new hardware more often so the GPU is supported and your browser (or with W8 your whole OS) doesn't come to a crawling halt.

     But truly: IE9 rendering outperforms their native stack rendering? If so, Windows is obviously still the same as it was 16 years ago: one of the most poorly designed OS-es out there.

    Monday, June 06, 2011 11:14 AM
  • >>>It definitely seems Microsoft’s ultimate goal is to wean developers off Silverlight
    >>I believe Jupiter is key to enabling Microsoft to continue to insist that Silverlight’s not dead (as far as a development platform) — at least for now.


    The English translation of the above is “Microsoft has abandoned their enterprise customers in favor of a programming model that is fashionable - at least for now.”  


    MS is going to get whipsawed because enterprise customers want to get away from HTML they just don’t have an alternative they can believe in.  As soon as MS dumps Silverlight, Google is going to come out with some kind of “Google RIA” and everyone will flock to it because Google is the fashionable, trendy company as of 8:57 this morning.  Apparently the software business has become like Hollywood where utility is second to appearance.  That is really the only sense I can make of this.  


    I think Microsoft’s ultimate corporate objective is to follow Google.  If they were to actually take the lead it would not fit in to their long term plan and they would not know what to do.  Obviously they can’t let that happen.

    Monday, June 06, 2011 12:19 PM
  • The decision to drop Silverlight and .NET was probably taken by people who only know how to program HTML.

    Monday, June 06, 2011 12:30 PM
  • I'll join you in delisting my WP7 marketplace app.

    That's enough for me. I will be delisting Scrabble Scorer at 10AM Pacific Time on Wednesday. This is a paid app, so I will actually be putting my money where my mouth is. Microsoft's decision to leave its loyal developers in the dark while catering to developers who have absolutely ZERO loyalty (and often outright loathing) towards the company is unacceptable. I encourage other Windows phone developers to join me.

    Monday, June 06, 2011 12:59 PM
  • i think it's time to buy MonoTouch and develop for iOS or go to Java...

    Microsoft decided to repeat the success story of Apple, but did not understand - why the success was place to be.

    Monday, June 06, 2011 1:35 PM
  • After  9 years learning .Net and several year learning WPF and Silverlight, this is the kicker for me to leave MS.  I can’t believe Microsoft!

    Upgrade Silverlight if you don’t think it’s good enough MS!

    Monday, June 06, 2011 2:10 PM
  • That's enough for me. I will be delisting Scrabble Scorer at 10AM Pacific Time on Wednesday. This is a paid app, so I will actually be putting my money where my mouth is. Microsoft's decision to leave its loyal developers in the dark while catering to developers who have absolutely ZERO loyalty (and often outright loathing) towards the company is unacceptable. I encourage other Windows phone developers to join me.
    I would also suggest boycotting //build/.  Perhaps an organized boycott with Twibbons (for Twitter) and all that jazz.

    Monday, June 06, 2011 2:31 PM
  • I'm outta here too.

    I have to stay with .net for the next couple years because thats all I know but I am not investing one more minute in silverlight or any new technoglogy related to .net. 

    No way am I going to write for Windows Phone.  I spent all day yesterday in a windows phone training session.  It was good to learn what I'm NOT going to be doing. 

    One thing I have to say about Silverlight is that the learning curve was really steep for me (perhaps I'm just set in my ways).  In any case if I'm going to continue to invest that kind of effort I better be able to do more than write apps for a device that has something like 1% of the market. 

    Microsoft I cannot beleive how badly you have screwed this up.




    Monday, June 06, 2011 3:02 PM
  • A separate thread now exists for Delisting and Build Boycott.  http://forums.silverlight.net/forums/p/230919/563821.aspx#563821

    As a community our voice will be heard.  Our goal is to obtain a candid and meaningful answer from Microsoft regarding long-term intentions for the Silverlight platform.  Please show your support.

    Monday, June 06, 2011 3:07 PM
  • In response to http://forums.silverlight.net/forums/t/230502.aspx.

    This was shut down to trolling activity? Fair enough... but guess what... this is 2011 and us developers are louder than ever. (this is a good thing).

    The OP in the above post was dead on.

    Is silvelright/wpf (the natural progression for windows development) being marginalized by an oh so trendy markup and browser scripting language? Is windows development going DHTML? Or will Silverlight/Wpf be first class citizens?

    So, the people have spoken, msft, what's the answer?

    (signed, proud .net developer)


    I'm curious how long this thread will run for... quite surprised by it all.

    I will say... I for one will NEVER drop Silverlight/WPF out of spite. The whole reason this thread exists is because Silverlight/WPF is by far the most superior stack going and MSFT should get off their *** and make it their loudest and greatest achievment yet. Built on Silverlight/WPF should be EVERYWHERE. Yet it's not... hence the drama.

    If you want to jump to php/unix/dhtml/ios and yada yada.. have fun. Good Luck. Those stack SUCK compared Silverlight/WPF. Let alone suck for your wallets...

    Here is an idea, make the biggest most badass application you can imagine.

    Monday, June 06, 2011 5:06 PM
  • This whole thing and the MS radio silence is really depressing. At my company two guys developed a whole new UI for our product in Silverlight with nearly zero problems. The whole .NET stack from the UI button down to the database access worked like a charm and they could develop very fast.

    Now we're internally facing another product which is build with these overhyped "new" technologies HTML & JavaScript. And it's hell ! There is no visible structure, there are almost zero coding patterns that you can identify, it looks like code anarchy. I don't say that you can't work in a structured way with these tools but this toy language makes it so easy to break the structure, to make this public which should be private.

    I really hope that this whole mess doesn't cause collateral damage. E. g. imagine how a genuis like Anders Hejlsberg thinks about this. He dedicated years of his life to carefully design C#, the best programming language I've ever worked with. Just to be not even mentioned with one word when it comes to the future of development on the strategically important new Windows 8. If there is really something like a raging war within MS between the Windows and Dev division then this must be resolved ASAP by the CEO.

    Monday, June 06, 2011 5:20 PM
  • If you want to jump to php/unix/dhtml/ios and yada yada.. have fun.

    The point is, we don't want to, but there is a lot of evidence to suggest that Microsoft is showing us the plank.

    Those stack <edit> are considered less desireable by Microsoft developers </edit> compared Silverlight/WPF.

    Be careful, we can't say such things. :)

    Here is an idea, make the biggest most badass application you can imagine.

    Perfectly happy to if Microsoft would officially state we're not screwed in three months. Why anyone would pay to go to //BUILD// is a mystery to me. I'm sure there are a lot of people who are pissed for paying for MIX considering what they got. OOOOOHHHHH, IE can display SVG and change colors. Thanks guys, I could have figured that out from running an ACID test.

    Monday, June 06, 2011 5:36 PM
  • Now we're internally facing another product which is build with these overhyped "new" technologies HTML & JavaScript. And it's hell ! There is no visible structure, there are almost zero coding patterns that you can identify, it looks like code anarchy. I don't say that you can't work in a structured way with these tools but this toy language makes it so easy to break the structure, to make this public which should be private.

    We are not allowed :) to call JavaScript a toy language: it is a very powerful functional language :) .

    The one thing that has killed us over and over in HTML applications is the lack of client side state. Don't tell me to use client side storage: that involves serialization/deserialization. A singleton across multiple pages, large amounts of data you need for local calcs... that is what distributed client computing is about: you leverage the power of the client machine so you don't need a bunch of oversized servers that you are constantly transfering all this data to for computation. Granted: with a tablet/pad/phone you don't have that much computing power client side (although there are still sometimes very valid reasons to utilize that computing power for more than just UI display purposes). That's why we have different programming models like web based and client based.

    I am hoping that MS really means HTML5+CSS+JS will be a presentation layer, but we will still have our current application model. But if that is their intent, why is there a programming language (javascript) in their presentation layer?   Presentation layer = Markup + CSS . As soon as you add JS, you have an application model (where the programming language can get mixed up with your presentation layer *yuck*). So I would feel slightly better if the message was HTML5+CSS with JS disabled. I can see how that could be a XAML replacement (although there are still many XAML features I would miss horribly).

     

    Monday, June 06, 2011 5:53 PM
  • Maybe! Just maybe because I'm hoping that I'm wrong. We're witnessing a collapsing of an empire. It's sad.

    Monday, June 06, 2011 7:28 PM
  • This worst part of this is not that those MS marketing ass clowns have once again angered, frustrated, and struck fear into the hearts of their most loyal user base, their platform developers. No, the worst part is that they have made it nearly impossible for those developers to convince non-developer managers and other decision makers to allow them to use Silverlight in a project.

    "Use dead technologies like Silverlight and .NET that MS is killing off? You can do the same thing in HTML5 and Javascript better, faster, and cheaper. That's what MS has been telling us for months now. If you can't, you must not be a very good developer." So sayeth the pointy haired boss.

    Monday, June 06, 2011 7:33 PM
  • This worst part of this is not that those MS marketing ass clowns have once again angered, frustrated, and struck fear into the hearts of their most loyal user base, their platform developers. No, the worst part is that they have made it nearly impossible for those developers to convince non-developer managers and other decision makers to allow them to use Silverlight in a project.

    "Use dead technologies like Silverlight and .NET that MS is killing off? You can do the same thing in HTML5 and Javascript better, faster, and cheaper. That's what MS has been telling us for months now. If you can't, you must not be a very good developer." So sayeth the pointy haired boss.

    And this sounds like an accident to you?

    The best way to kill off a product is to stop the users from using it, and then the developers don't have any choice.

    Sounds like the ARM platform will need a lot of native access to perform well, so that means C++ or API calls that go to C++ functions.  Actually, when the DEC Alpha came out, DEC asked us to port our app to their platform.  Since it was C++, all we really did was to recompile and correct a few areas where their compiler was more standards compliant than MS's compiler at the time.

    If the C++ compiler improves with something closer to approaching visual, and maybe some optional garbage collection, that could be nice.   However, the move to C++ is interesting.  Google and Apple are already there, so MS may be doing it as well for performance on the slower ARM platform.

    Another thing is the Antitrust situation.  Now that MS is out from under it, and there's no desire to hamstring an American company anymore, there's a new opportunity.  The wild west is back, and I would be shocked if anyone complained about ANYTHING in the tablet or phone space.

    In other words, you can do VERY anti-competitive things, and there won't be a significant price to pay(see Apple & Google).

    If either Apple or Google were smart, they would JUMP all over the discontent of the MS developer base and grab that oppotunity to expand their base(i.e. sell more stuff).

    I'm likely to go to BUILD, simply because it's right down the road, and Microsoft's platform is so strategic.  Who cares about the agenda being published, we know what the score is!

    Monday, June 06, 2011 9:03 PM
  • A few points if I may:

    • Not saying anything is one thing admitting it... dear god why. This isn't directed at Pete to all staff members, if you can't get involved in the discussion then avoid the discussion completely. Jumping into the fray and asking all to calm down while at the same time not offering answers is not wise. It only fuels further conspiracy theories for one and secondly it creates a focused point of frustration for all to increment geek-rage at.  Either join the discussion or don't but not half-way.
       
    • Perception vs Reality. The amount of times when we use to deal with constant battles around Silverlight mainly from a perception base vs the reality was a daily occurence so Microsoft Staff, while I admire your bravery here by jumping into the fray with "probably" correct is a diasterous way of handling the corporate communication(s). You're actually doing more harm that way and if i was sitll in the Silverlight team i'd be making moves to put a gag order on you for it - its not your motivates aren't righteous but you are actually now validating some of the speculation by keeping it half-yes half-no.
       
    • New Joins vs Trolling. On one hand its great to see new members whilst on the other hand its sad under these circumstances. The point of order here is this, Corporate Comms 101 is a tire fire right now, people are frustrated and having an outlet like this to voice such concerns is a beast that well - staff - you created. If people are joining to either remain anonymous and voice their rage or so on, so be it all you can all do is reallly just sit and listen ...that..or join the conversaton and start squashing some of the rumous / speculation mentioned earlier. Time to get involved.
       
    • Moderation. If you have a situation whereby the villagers aregoing to storm your gates, its better to marshall them into an area you can control more to the point you can isolate. Having such a firm strict hand on a forum such as this isn't smart as what you're really saying to the hordes of both positive & negative emotion is "take your fight elsewhere".  You don't want that, you want this isolated and pocketed to one area of the web as much as possible as when you do finally do your reveal in September you can then provide a much more sturdier platform to voice your smackdowns. Right now this is just plain stupid.

    Pete. Personally I am fan of your work and will often support you even when I think you're wrong because at the end of the day you work very hard to make a difference to communities like this. My personal advice to you is step aside, don't take this bullet as the Windows team have some damage to fix and as some managers in the Silverlight team used to say "If you going to break up a fight, be prepared to be punched in the face". 

    Let the horde vent their rage, its fast creating a marshalling point for you to provide some much needed corporate communication(s) to down the track.


    To the masses here on this thread: You can argue amongst yourselves all you want, to what end? all you're really doing is seeing who can bark the loudest.. the reality is this won't have impact as the decisions around this entire messaging framework if you want to call it that goes much higher than those who moderate / read these forums. At best all staff like Pete can do etc is provide a thread or snippet of quotes to execs in a "quoted" format with "Please help me help you" call to action. It's more than likely that email will be ignored.

    My advice - wait this HTML5 bubble gum pop idea out as it's one thing to say "all devs will create HTML5 apps" and its entirely another to have it happen. This is about the 4th time Windows team have tried to kickstart the HTML pipedream and what they fail to realise is that folks who do adopt Microsoft tech enjoy .NET folks who don't, just don't like Microsoft as a brand and it mainly has nothing to do with technology discussion. Can't imagine why they loose faith in the brand though? can you ;)

    -

    Scott Barnes
    Former Product Manager (well 1yr ago lol) for Silverlight/WPF :) 

    Monday, June 06, 2011 10:03 PM
  • I have been an ASP.NET developer since .NET 1.0 With .NET 1.0 and 1.1 my experience was: "Much better than classic ASP, compiled code on the server, yeah! But it's still spartan." With 2.0 and generics I had something like "They are starting to hit the nail on the head!" With each subsequent release I have been developing more and more trust in the ability of Microsoft to get it right. And for someone who had no love for previous MS products like VB, that's quite a ways to go. They gave us lambda's, Entity Framework ... Just great work by a team of developers that clearly understand programming languages, theory of programming languages (Rx team rocks!) and that is nailing it time after time.

    As an ASP.NET developer I was also daily exposed to the fact that  users expected web applications to be something that they weren't. They expected HTML (Hypertext!) to act as a full blown  native windows application. And that was an expectation you could fight as much as you wanted, no winning there. That's what they want an app (native or web) to act like. HTML5 brings applications based upon HTML closer. But it's still not a fine tuned application platform. That has been well documented over and over (to give an other example: http://blog.firsov.net/2010/04/changing-web-browser-use-patterns-for.html ).

    Please understand, I love HTML for all it's great purposes. Especially because HTML is that one environment where text meets application (an open document structure with semantics (although the semantic story could be lots better) and application functionality). Nothing else out there quite like it.

    But application programmers are now reacting in disbelief and with shattered trust now that MS is even throwing the possibility out there of HTML being the default application platform for W8. MS could at least let us know that they understand the concerns. I can't believe this  new direction is coming from the dev tools team that has showered us with so many great ideas since .NET 1.0.

    Monday, June 06, 2011 11:20 PM
  • I do believe that Silverlight and WPF and C# will be fully supported by Microsoft Windows 8, if Microsoft really wanted to break backward compatibility they could have easily continued with the courier project

    http://gizmodo.com/5365299/courier-first-details-of-microsofts-secret-tablet

    Microsoft canceled so many projects just so Windows can live! It is extremely hard to imagine that they will not support Silverlight or WPF :-) these technologies will stay in Windows for some time.

    What about the internet war?

    There is literally an internet war out there, and it is all about via whose eyes you see the internet? Microsoft “Internet Explorer” or Google “Chrome” or Firefox or Apple “Safari”?

    Every lost customer of Internet Explorer is a revenue lost for Microsoft, long time ago people wanted everything to be Microsoft; but once you switch and you start using someone else services and search engine, someone’s else ideas about internet, and eventually someone’s else operation system and office applications, then this is all lost future revenue for Microsoft, and they will do everything they can for that not to happen!

    So Internet Explorer will continue to evolve, and it will be integrated everywhere in Windows, they just cannot lose more market share!

    http://arstechnica.com/web/news/2011/06/may-browser-market-share-microsoft-and-mozillas-continuing-chrome-conundrum.ars

    html5 is a technology under development, it is years behind its full completion, once it is completed there will be no need for Adobe Flash, Microsoft Silverlight or WPF, well at today’s levels, IE9’s html5 can simply do anything that Silverlight can do and faster, it is missing some libraries, but those can be written.

    The browser is the most tested technology on earth, think about it, every user who downloads and uses the browser basically tests it, web designers test it, software developers test it, the internet is full about design ideas, workarounds, issues, etc; it is extremely well tested, the smallest issue appears immediately, I cannot say the same about WPF, it is used in corporations, and if there are bugs, the business learns how to live with them.


    I do believe that the html5 integration in Windows 8 will be the most html integration Windows ever had, it will be the only way to stop the market share from sliding any further, and Microsoft is not the only one who is doing this, have you had a look at Chrome OS?

    http://chromeos.hexxeh.net/vanilla.php

    C/C++ kernel, C/C++ browser and script engine, and html5, Css3, and JS5 for the user interface and client side functionality, it may not fly with the power users like use, but for basic users or businesses, it is like a dream come true.

    http://www.engadget.com/2011/05/11/google-teases-samsung-built-chromebox-desktop-version-of-chrome/

    Tuesday, June 07, 2011 9:14 AM
  • The browser is the most tested technology on earth, think about it, every user who downloads and uses the browser basically tests it, web designers test it, software developers test it, the internet is full about design ideas, workarounds, issues, etc; it is extremely well tested, the smallest issue appears immediately, I cannot say the same about WPF, it is used in corporations, and if there are bugs, the business learns

    The browser collected most garbage on earth! Even in simplest cases you'll enjoy different look and feel of same html. And you should test your app every day just to be sure that last browser update didn't break it.

    I wanted to use SVG in small project, but after looking at this http://www.codedread.com/svg-support.php I don't want anymore. 


    Tuesday, June 07, 2011 9:49 AM
  • different look and feel of same html

    SVG is a work in progress, it is the same like saying oh no, I am not going to build Silverlight 4 applications, they don’t work under Silverlight 2 and Silverlight 1 :-)

    People talk a lot about how html is displayed differently in different browsers, but still, CNN looks the same in every browser, MSNBC, MSN, Google News, … almost every website there.

    If you are building a business application using html5, then target a specific browser, why the double standards? Why no one is complaining that .net applications under 3.5 framework don’t look the same under Mono and Linux :-)

    Why when people build business applications their suddenly talking about how will they support every IE release and every Firefox release, and Chrome release and ….; it is all java all over again, select one or two target browsers and this is your minimum requirements :-)

    Even Silverlight 5 will have things that work on Windows and don't work under Mac :)

    Tuesday, June 07, 2011 10:02 AM
  • I do believe that Silverlight and WPF and C# will be fully supported by Microsoft Windows 8

    No, Silverlight and WPF are supported by the Developers Division.

    Windows is separate, as is Office. This structure explains a lot of the conflict that is going on behind the scenes. 

    One thing about Microsoft is that they are hyper competitive individuals. In the web browser eco system, this is particularly so. There are so many vendors, all giving their products away free, yet MS have revved up the engine and been pumping out IE8 and IE9 in quick succession. Meanwhile, dev div have to make a profit on their tools and they have cost centres and resource constraints. Guess which product is going to be better? Browser or a proprietary tool which has no competition?

    As much as I like Silverlight, it probably is better for developers in the long run that MS has embraced HTML. HTML is not going away. It is going to be like C is to systems programming. If MS chooses one day to drop the development of MSIE, we will not be left with nothing, like what happened to FoxPro and VB6.


    Tuesday, June 07, 2011 10:21 AM
  • SVG is a work in progress

    It's on progress for 10 years now! Believe me I was really huge SVG fan 10 years ago! I told everyone that is the future of graphics! It was really fantastic interactive graphics format for that moment! And now we still have not full implementation. How long you expect me to wait?

    If you are building a business application using html5, then target a specific browser, why the double standards? Why no one is complaining that .net applications under 3.5 framework don’t look the same under Mono and Linux :-)

    71% of internet enabled devices have silverlight installed

    http://riastats.com/# 

    There is no browser with the same market share. The whole reason to choose html is that it's available everywhere. Why should I choose html over silverlight if I'll have less customers for my app?

    And there is almost no different versions of silverlight - in most cases it's just auto-update to last release.

    And yes, silverlight also have small issues (actually very small, most of devs will never find one) in compatability space. But you can't compare it with html. 






    Tuesday, June 07, 2011 10:29 AM
  • "Why when people build business applications their suddenly talking about how will they support every IE release and every Firefox release, and Chrome release and ….; it is all java all over again, select one or two target browsers and this is your minimum requirements :-)"

    Html degrades gracefully. Which also means its not alway obvious what is wrong with a site. On top of that, business apps need need to 100% perfect in terms of accucracy etc.. because people are using these tools to make money. Thats why having strongly typed, OO compiled, resuable library apps that run consistently everywhere is SO IMPORTANT!

    For consumer, facebook, groupon etc.. it doesnt matter. Your site can be broken for a while, so what? When its about making money the criteria for excellence changes massively. So yes, debugging in ie6, firefox etc.. does matter because you cant always dictate what a client will have and if the thing is inaccurate that is a major problem.

    The people who are screaming about the future of Silverlight are people who work in that space. The LOB/Enterprise people are about accuracy / reproducability and maintenance.

    The guys making ie9 Tron comic demos know nothing about that type of pressure. Thats why people are so pissed off!




    Tuesday, June 07, 2011 10:39 AM
  • It's on progress for 10 years now

    I agree with that, I remembered learning it long ago, and the Adobe plug-in back there :-) I hope this time the competition between the browsers will get it right.


    71% of internet enabled devices have silverlight installed

    If the 71% runs the latest Silverlight then using it for internet applications makes sense!

    I am working on WPF corporate applications, controlled environment; it is much easier for me to choose the technology (well you have to argue with so many people), and it will be easy to switch to html5 and Internet Explorer 9, I would love to switch to Google Chrome, but until they allow the businesses to choose which updates to install and which to skip, IE9 looks attractive; unless the business switches to ChromeBox, but that is still risky, the technology is new, maybe in 2 years.


    Tuesday, June 07, 2011 10:39 AM
  • We don’t say “the federal reserve is printing money” oh no, god forbid, we say “the federal reserve is expanding its balance sheets” it makes us feel good.

    having strongly typed, OO compiled

    We don’t say “C# is encoded to MSIL”, oh no, that makes it another script language, we say “C# is compiled to MSIL” that give us the feeling of power, a compiler is something that compile from high level language to machine code, it makes us thing that MSIL is machine code :-)

    We don’t say “the US is borrowing money” we say “the US treasury is selling investments” that makes us feel safe; investing is way different than borrowing :-)

    We don’t say “MSIL are some binary encoded instructions” oh no, that makes it another scripting language, we say “MSIL is almost a machine language” that gives us the feeling of high performance, although I noticed someone posted a converter from MSIL to JavaScript :-)

    We don’t say “the federal reserve is giving free money to large business” oh no that will bring trouble to the economy; we call it “quantitative easing”, sounds effective!

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantitative_easing

    I see the .net framework as an aquarium, a very nice and transparent aquarium, there is fish inside, and they all talk like the people outside, instead of “I will swim there” they will say “I will walk there” because of some reason swimming is bad, and walking is good, so we kept swimming “Scripting”, but we just called it talking “Compiling” :-)

    Just because all the vocabulary around C# changed to make it look like C and C++, C# does not compile to machine language, it needs the .NET framework (aquarium) and that framework needs Windows, C# cannot be used to build the Windows core; no matter how transparent the aquarium is, it is still an aquarium.

    Tuesday, June 07, 2011 10:43 AM
  • "Just because all the vocabulary around C# changed to make it look like C and C++, C# does not compile to machine language, it needs the .NET framework (aquarium) and that framework needs Windows, C# cannot be used to build the Windows core; no matter how transparent the aquarium is, it is still an aquarium."

    Dude, high level languages are an abstraction for a reason. We dont want or need to re-invent the wheel. We need tools that solve the problems we need to solve. Like, returning a P/E ratioand putting it in a graph that maybe a pie chart one day, or a histogram another.

    At no point do I need to know about registers, bits, push/pop stacks, video memory etc.. I need that stuff abstracted away. Thats the whole point of managed code and high level languages. Thats what C# is about.

    HTML and JS are even more abstracted than C#!

    However, the future doesnt do away with the past. If I want to write a low level driver for Kenitic then c++ and Windows API all the way. But thats not what I get paid to do.




    Tuesday, June 07, 2011 10:57 AM
  • We don’t say “C# is encoded to MSIL”, oh no, that makes it another script language, we say “C# is compiled to MSIL” that give us the feeling of power, a compiler is something that compile from high level language to machine code, it makes us thing that MSIL is machine code :-)

    You just don't no how .Net works. C# can be easily compiled to highly optimized native code. There is NGen util in .Net Framework to do this. And msil-jit do almost exactly the same thing. You can't do the same  thing (in general case) with jscript because you don't have type information at compile time.

    having strongly typed

    it's more important for enterprise and you can't argue with this

    C# cannot be used to build the Windows core

    In fact, C# can be used for this purpose - and there is working example - singularity OS , but .net framework in current state can't (because of bad performance in some areas).




    Tuesday, June 07, 2011 11:09 AM
  • Please stop trolling about languages. It is not about language A versus language B. Right now, based upon the little info we have, MS is shifting gears in a major way (like when .NET was introduced). It is however not a new technology (HTML5 is not a new technology, there are no versions of HTML, it is HTML 'evolved') like .NET, it is an existing technology (HTML5+CSS+JS) that many people have legitimate concerns about. Why a major shift that uproots your whole dev community? Evolution is what I am looking for in a platform. Right now, Java seems like the best card in the whole deck: it is on Android, it is on the server and it is evolving (not making tailspins every time something comes along).

    Tuesday, June 07, 2011 11:29 AM
  • People talk a lot about how html is displayed differently in different browsers, but still, CNN looks the same in every browser, MSNBC, MSN, Google News, … almost every website there.

    That's because web developers put in a slew of hacks to make the website "work" in all the different browsers.

    If you are building a business application using html5, then target a specific browser, why the double standards?

    If you are targeting a single browser, there is NO reason to use HTML.  The ONLY think HTML has going for it is the fact that it is (somewhat) cross-platform, again, as long as you hack it up for every browser.   If you use HTML and target one browser, you have the worst of all worlds--no cross-platform compatibility AND the horrible HTML/JavaScript development mess.

    Why no one is complaining that .net applications under 3.5 framework don’t look the same under Mono and Linux :-)

    Why aren't people complaining that an unsupported open-source project on a platform that is 90% hard-core developers (and thus, no actual customers of the code I write) use doesn't work?   Gee I wonder.

    Tuesday, June 07, 2011 11:35 AM
  • We are not discussing if Java is dead.

    Oh, yeah. Remember JavaFX (which was answer to silverlight from Java community)? When you see Java applet last time (many people told me that is the best technology for the web ... long time ago)? Remeber panic when Oracle taked over Sun? 

    When they add features to language last time? They still have no properties, no lambdas, no delegates etc. and still argue if they need them. I don't talk about modern C# features such as linq and async.


    Tuesday, June 07, 2011 11:49 AM
  • I do believe that Silverlight and WPF and C# will be fully supported by Microsoft Windows 8

    Of course they will be.  Silverlight and .NET are user-level code.  It's not as if they're part of the kernel.  The Windows team has zero control over the future of Silverlight or .NET on Windows.  Windows has never directly "supported" .NET or Silverlight; they are not a part of Windows.  Nothing has changed.

    I can pretty much guarantee you that the C++ developers on the Windows team are not writing a new shell in HTML/JS, nor would they force the Win32 developer base to write HTML/JS applications.  Trust me, they hate the idea even more than we do.  The new shell may be able to host HTML/JS, but it will also be able to host unmanaged applications or anything else (either by hosting HWNDs, DirectX surfaces, or something similar).  Even if they don't implement direct support for hosting WPF or Silverlight, this support can be provided by the .NET team, and it will be no less "native" than the HTML/JS support (and HTML/JS apps would be running in yet another sandbox anyway: IE).

    Tuesday, June 07, 2011 11:56 AM
  • Not trying to add fuel to the fire ... but just got my email invite for //Build/:


    BUILD is the event that shows you how to take advantage of the future of Windows. Get insight on creating touch-centric user experiences, fast, fluid, and dynamic applications that leverage the power and flexibility of the core of Windows, used by more than a billion people around the world. Learn how to create powerful new apps while retaining the ability to use your existing apps. See how web-connected and web-powered apps built using HTML5 and JavaScript have full access to the power of the PC.  Explore how the full power of hardware-accelerated Internet Explorer 10 transforms your experiences with the web. See how the UI was designed to work seamlessly with a diversity of devices and form factors.  BUILD is the first place to dive deep into the future of Windows.


    If you are a contemporary developer, who thrives on the newest and coolest, who loves the freedom of the web and the power of all devices from mobile to desktop, you need to join us to help BUILD the future. Our approach means no compromises-you get to use whatever kind of device you prefer to run the apps you love. Register by August 1st and receive a $500 USD discount off your pass.

    In 1995, Windows changed the PC. BUILD will show you that Windows 8 changes everything.


    Tuesday, June 07, 2011 11:57 AM
  • In fact, C# can be used for this purpose - and there is working example - singularity OS , but .net framework in current state can't (because of bad performance in some areas).


    Singularity written in C# :-) ?

    As I remember, It has assembly, C, and Sing# which looks like C# but compiles to native and has nothing to do with the .net framework or the traditional C# and MSIL :-)

    All of the above creates the aquarium (the managed environment), and then comes the traditional C# and the framework that we know to create code inside the aquarium :-)

    http://research.microsoft.com/en-us/projects/singularity/

    http://singularity.codeplex.com/


    Tuesday, June 07, 2011 12:27 PM
  • With summer approaching, we are again suffering another Microsoft information blackout. This is the period where Microsoft ceases to inform developers about important new directions. We know the reasons; they don't want to talk about what might not be delivered, they want to withhold information from enemies (competitors, lawyers, unfriendly governments), they want to ratchet up the excitement and explode it on stage. Unfortunately, not knowing future plans has a deleterious effect on many. Some of us are headed full speed ahead in an obsolete or sub-optimal direction. Considerable resources will be expended before corrective action can be taken thanks to the blackout.

     

    Both my consulting clients and I need to know, right now, what changes are in store. We do not wish to wait three months until PDC. There are important decisions that need to be made today. We do not have access to privileged information. We need to know today if we are spilling our resources. Thus I spent a day on gathering all the details that are publicly available and trying my best to build a picture of coming changes. I've given the following report to my clients calling it an educated guess.

     

    What do I expect to hear at PDC 2011? There are two relevant core technological changes that I'm expecting. First, Microsoft will promote a new rendering engine, possibly called MoSH (Modern Shell) that will form the basis for a new UI. MoSH is implemented using HTML5 and thus constrained by HTML5 capabilities. WPF and Silverlight are still completely supported but they're future is cut off at the legs by their successor (MoSH). MoSH can be used with XAML but, significantly, will only support a subset of WPF's and Silverlight's XAML. Again, the constraining factor is HTML5 capabilities and Microsoft's abstractions of them. I expect both MoSH and WPF/Silverlight to support new device interfaces such as location, multi-touch, gyros, etc. I'm not sure if the support will come in the form of .Net 5, be built into MoSH, or as a separate cross-platform library. I believe MoSH is designated to be cross-platform (Mozilla, Chrome, Safari) in the form of a browser plugin. Marc Andreesen has predicted “The browser will become the OS”. I believe more correctly the renderer will become the OS. MoSH will become the heart of IE, Windows 8 and Windows devices (Windows TV anyone?).

     

    The second technological change is what Microsoft might be calling Native Code. Native Code is a set of technologies that enable software (applications and gadgets) and hardware (graphics) to perform at near native speed inside a container (browser). Most notably, Microsoft will supply tooling to build browser applications, principally with MoSH, without today's performance penalties. Currently browser based applications are limited by API availability (DOM), programming speed (Javascript), and slow rendering. This will all change. Internet Explorer 11(?) (IE) will expose a much richer API, possibly .Net 5.0, Visual Studio will enable Native Code development, and IE's renderer (probably same as MoSH) will directly use hardware graphics.

     

    Some issues I'm unclear on:

    • Will Microsoft port MoSH and Native Code to iOS and Android? I'm guessing that they intend to do so directly or through partnerships.

    • Will a single dll, possibly named .DLLX, run across all devices? If so, when is the code JITed?

    • Will Native Code force any syntax changes to .Net languages? I'm guessing Microsoft is working hard to limit the changes to attributes.

    • Is Native Code implemented using .Net sandboxing or with the aid of hardware as with Google's Native Client (NaCl)? This would make the difference as to whether C was supported or not.

    • Do CPU processors need changes to optimally support Native Code? Do all existing processors and graphics chips support Native Code and MoSH? I'm particularly curious about the suitability of legacy ARM support.

     

    What does Microsoft hope to gain by these changes?

    • Expose APIs to features of rich devices (touch, location, Kinect, voice commands)

    • Implement a single Windows API across devices to ease programming

    • Create a single development platform for desktop, cloud and mobile devices

    • Embrace new mobile processor architectures (ARM)

    • Capture developers attention with powerful tools

    • Expand sandboxing to new scenarios

    • Offer sandboxing security to native code apps

    • Expand base for MS applications (Office) to more devices

    • Make Visual Studio the leading development tool for all HTML5 platforms

     

    What Dangers does Microsoft face?

    • missed schedules

    • legal threats

    • threaten existing relationships (Intel)

    • technical blocks

    • internal intransigence

    • standards failure (HTML5 delays, limitations)

     

    What does Microsoft need to change to implement MoSH and Native Code?

    • Visual Studio – implement MoSH UI development

    • Visual Studio – provide framework for WPF/Silverlight to MoSH conversion

    • Visual Studio – implement Native Code throughout tool chain (major task)

    • Visual Studio – enable MoSH and Native Code debugging (major task)

    • Visual Studio – create templates for MoSH and Native Code projects

    • WPF – reduce in stature, Windows classic only

    • Silverlight – reduce in stature, Windows classic only

    • .Net languages – transparent changes to backend

    • Azure – more device support

    • App Store – retool for cross-device, possibly iOS and Android support via plugins

    • Internet Explorer – native MoSH support (no plugin required), virtual app support, new design patterns

     

    Why isn't Microsoft telling us more?

    • They want to withhold information from enemies (competitors, lawyers, unfriendly governments). They don't mind telling YOU. They just don't want a competitor to do a crazy Ivan at a vulnerable moment.

    • They want to ratcheted up the excitement and explode it on stage.

    • They don't want to talk about what might not be delivered.

     

    How will Google react?

    • Google is very slowly implementing their own Native Code technology called Native Client (NaCl). It supports C. Google recently announced that they will retool Chrome to go Native. When Google comprehended Native Client concept, it took maybe two blinks to see how Microsoft could run with it. We will all greatly benefit from Native but Microsoft will be a bigger winner than Google. Google's Native Client just doesn't have the market weight or resources to trump Microsoft's Native Code vision. A MoSH plugin must be part of the grand strategy but a Native Client implementation is low priority.

    • Mono – Obsoleted

    • Mozilla – They'll support MoSH via plugin. It's in Microsoft's best interests. I don't think they'll implement it using XUL.

    • Apple – Not threatened.

    • Android – Focused on developing their own Native tools. Development is dangerously slow.

    • Chrome – Technically able to support Microsoft's Native Code but low priority.

     

    What is the Timeline for the software release? Here's my crazy guesses:

    • August 2010 - Proof of concept of marrying MoSH, IE and Native Code, first benchmarks

    • June 2011 – Windows 8 early experience including MoSH but not Native Code anything

    • September 2011 – Betas of Windows 8, Visual Studio 2012, Native Code, .Net 5.0, IE 11

    • December 2011 – First release candidate

    • March 2012 – Windows 8 release

    • May 2012 – Office 2012 released with MoSH and Native Code support

     

    Tuesday, June 07, 2011 12:49 PM
  • @BSalita - Interesting, but you need to cite more sources , well, at least one!

    BTW, I've come to the conclusion that HTML will be a GREAT thing if it's not Microsoft only HTML, but works cross platform.

    I'm willing to give up a lot to get my stuff to run everywhere.  After all, our biggest value add is on the server, so we just want to have as many clients as possible, and if this does the job, it's a BIG win.

    I LOVE Silverlight, but if you can get me some of the structures in HTML, I'm in heaven.  Give me the StackPanel(and WrapPanel), Grid, and some controls, and it's a new ball game.

    The bottom line is that it's all in the tooling!  Great tooling can make Javascript shine.

    I do agree that in this competitive environment, MS may need to keep mum.  A good article about this environment was recently put up by Scott Barnes(MossyBlog) - Understanding why would Microsoft do that?

    Tuesday, June 07, 2011 1:52 PM
  • As a long-time participant in this forum, I read this thread (and part I) with great interest, I can't resist but to make a word cloud out of it (using Tagxedo), with words from the two threads in the shape of the Silverlight logo (bigger words = mentioned more often). Before you shout "shamely promotion!" I do have something to say ...

    I wrote Tagxedo (http://www.tagxedo.com), the tool that creates beautiful word clouds with shapes. This tool is built in Silverlight and all the computation runs on the client side.

    I found Silverlight to be the perfect technology to develop Tagxedo. C# is fast (vs. Flash or Javascript), fast enough (vs. C/C++), and the ease of development and debugging allowed me to apply some very fancy algorithms and implemented features that would be impossible to do on any other client-side technology. I used quite a bit of Silverlight goodies:

    + isolated storage, dynamic font, zip, local messaging, dynamic DLL download, threaded computation (better UX), ...

    Why Silverlight?

    Sure, it can be done on the server side (I do have a server version) but the interactiveness will suffer significantly (this is how Picnik/Fotoflexer kicked the butt of earlier Ajax-based image editor). The user wants to change things a bit, and if every time this requires a server round-trip, the user experience will suffer immensely... not to mention the burden on supporting hundreds or thousands of concurrent computations. It's just a non-starter.

    Sure, it can be done as a desktop app, or phone app, but the distribution and maintenance is much more tricky. With Silverlight I can deploy new versions at will, updating new functionalities with a push of a button. Many of my most beloved users are kids and teachers, and they simply wouldn't be able to install the applications on their computers. Despite the drawback that Silverlight will not be on many new devices, but neither are iOS, Android. Silverlight runs on most browsers, including Macs. *

    Sure, it can be done in Javascript, but I'll have to suffer immensely because the code is much harder to develop/debug/optimize. And it is slow. People who said that Javascript is "comparable to C#/C++" in performance has not done much algorithmically-intense stuff, or simply depends on functionalities (e.g. animation, Canvas) with which Javascript is merely being used as an interface rather than where the computation happens.

    So Silverlight is fast, great for development, available, easy on distribution... what's not to like about Silverlight?

    But I understand why Microsoft is doing this, and I have my own "unifying theory" about it. We'll see Silverlight again in another form. I just hope that Microsoft tries a little harder, be a bit more visionary, show a bit more respect and love to developers.

    Peace.

    * In fact, I don't understand why Microsoft didn't scoop up Miguel de Icaza's Mono/Moonlight effort and make Silverlight/.NET the predominent development framework on all devices, including iOS (MonoTouch) and Android (MonoDroid). One platform to rule them all!

    Tuesday, June 07, 2011 2:05 PM
  • BTW, I've come to the conclusion that HTML will be a GREAT thing if it's not Microsoft only HTML, but works cross platform.

    Given all of Microsoft's talk of "native HTML" and the BUILD invite stating that "web-connected and web-powered apps built using HTML5 and JavaScript have full access to the power of the PC", I think it's safe to say we're looking at another Visual J++. Meaning, the HTML will not be very cross platform and will have a lot of Microsoft specific tags.

     

    Tuesday, June 07, 2011 2:21 PM
  • fingers crossed

    Tuesday, June 07, 2011 3:01 PM
  •  

    Checkout at about the 2 minute mark but be sure to listen all the way to approx the 3:30 mark.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iI47b3a9cEI

    A question directly related to this topic is asked to Mr. Balmer.

    He states Silverlight is clearly important.  Something to the effect "we're dedicated to Silverlight with a little different concept than we originally started with".

    Everyone take a breath and relax a bit until we get the final information.  I admit I got caught up in this hype when I read the first post.  However, after having time to sort through some things, I'm starting to feel this is getting blown way out of proportion way too fast without much factual evidence. 

    On one hand it's great to voice our delight & passion with Silverlight and hopefully not only Microsoft but other developers as well will develop catch on to the things we're saying.  However at this time with nothing but conjecture, saying things like you've had it and are abandoning ship or any type of other threat is just as responsible for negativity as anything else.

    Everybody is trying to spin conjecture into the worse scenario.  However, if you dig around on the internet, you will find blogs back in Jan. where a person talks about Windows NT & Silverlight.Net everywhere and they mentioned Jupiter.  Something Ms. Foley covered in a post yesterday.

    Also, we as developers have Silverlight 5 in Beta as well as LightSwitch in Beta 2.  Even by the time Windows 8 is out, even if SL stopped, SL still would seem to be the best game in town for commercial LOB apps and a viable option for a while to come.

    At our company, I'm thankful we have taken the time to learn the principles of MVVM and have good levels of separation in our products.  Even if we have to go to something else, again with SL 5 (Unless it totally gets screwed up) we have a platform we can continue to build with and then migrate when a better alternative presents itself with minimal effort.

    Also, look at vb 6. I despise the product but there are still products being built off it to this day without support.

    It would extremely bad to not replace Silverlight with an equal or better alternative if it is phased out I have to believe the replacement will be as good or better.  HTML & Javascript without better tooling is not it.

    If not, nothing says we have to move to Windows 8.  Look at all the companies running Windows XP, Windows 2000 & 2003 server.  SQL 2000, 2005.  We're talking about products that are up to 10+ years old.

    So if Silverlight 4 or 5 works for you now, there should be no reason why you can't get 5 years out of a product.  Business is about being productive and making money.  It's not about installing the latest version of every piece of software available if the ROI doesn't warrant it.

    Even if the decision has already been made to pull the plug, the Silverlight world is not coming to an end in the next 3 months or year unless the person reading and contributing to these threads take us there.

    If we focus more on what we can do more so than what we can't, we'll be a lot more productive and happy in the long run.

    Tuesday, June 07, 2011 3:32 PM
  • I wrote Tagxedo (http://www.tagxedo.com), the tool that creates beautiful word clouds with shapes. This tool is built in Silverlight and all the computation runs on the client side.


    Wow thanks for the great post.  I love it when guys lay down the PROOF that SL is the real deal.  Bring it!

    Your site is awesome.

    Sadly this is probably just something else for Microsoft to ignore.

    Tuesday, June 07, 2011 3:33 PM
  • So if Silverlight 4 or 5 works for you now, there should be no reason why you can't get 5 years out of a product.  Business is about being productive and making money.  It's not about installing the latest version of every piece of software available if the ROI doesn't warrant it.

    You'd think.  But it dosen't seem to work that way.  There are (mis)perceptions and fears, especially among the less technical.  For example the company I work for bypassed Silverlight without even considering it's technical merits because they think it has no future (apparently they are right).  A lot of these people (non technical decision makers)  just look to see what the other guy did before making a move.  That is why it is so very, very important for Microsoft to give Silverlight credability and to explicity commit to it's future.


    Even if the decision has already been made to pull the plug, the Silverlight world is not coming to an end in the next 3 months or year unless the person reading and contributing to these threads take us there.

    Oh yes it is.  No one is going to build new products based on it.  Any develper who knows SL only is going to be doing help desk or going hungry.

    I'm starting to feel this is getting blown way out of proportion way too fast without much factual evidence. 

    The evidence is what isn't there, not what is there.  Nobody is freaking out because of what MS said.  We are freaking out because of what they didn't say.  And it's a fact they didn't say it.


    Tuesday, June 07, 2011 3:49 PM
  • Even if the decision has already been made to pull the plug, the Silverlight world is not coming to an end in the next 3 months or year unless the person reading and contributing to these threads take us there.

    And how good is that coolaid you're drinking?

    In the real world, Silverlight is DEAD in the big corporations(enterprises) for small developers.  If you're not a Tier 1 supplier, or affiliated with one, NOBODY is going to risk an enterprise app on Silverlight.  They know that we have no power to deliver the support, and guarantee a thing.

    Now the smaller customers don't even know what's going on, and when they see Silverlight, they want it in the worst way.  However, being a good partner, we have to protect them from themselves.  We NEVER use Silverlight for internet facing projects, we use ONLY HTML 4.x, not 5, and use Silverlight for the internal admin stuff, and there's always a lot of that.

    Yes, I believe that Silverlight won't drop off the face of the earth, you're right about that, so within the parameters I've outlined, we're not even considering any change of direction.

    Unfortunately, the point wasn't existence over the next few years, but existence that folks could plan around and customers could depend upon.

    I'm upset with the process, but i do believe we have to give MS a wide berth because it's cold out there, and Apple & Google are playing for keeps.  Microsoft has to get real or get lost, and this is the first step towards getting a solid answer to the mobile future we're facing.

    Patience isn't easy, but after a lot of hair pulling and anger, I've calmed down now that I've reviewed our business plan and found that it's not really impacted.  however, if this impacts your business plans, I fully understand where you're coming from.

    Tuesday, June 07, 2011 4:40 PM
  • Somehow I found the discussions about Windows 8 leak, and I think we might think about it too much?

    About Jupiter:

    http://forums.mydigitallife.info/threads/26404-Windows-8-%287955%29-Findings-in-M3-Leak?p=441473&viewfull=1#post441473 

    About HTML5/JS as an only App Model:

    http://forums.mydigitallife.info/threads/26404-Windows-8-%287955%29-Findings-in-M3-Leak?p=442463&viewfull=1#post442463

    What do you guys think?

    Tuesday, June 07, 2011 5:38 PM
  • I'm starting to feel this is getting blown way out of proportion way too fast without much factual evidence. 

    If you are available then I'll invite you to my next conversation with customers. Maybe together we can explain to them why MS is talking about HTML/JS and not about WPF/SL. What do you think, will they will reconsider when presented with arguments like "But Mr. customer, you need to convice me, you need to show me the facts that WPF/SL is dead. I know WPF/SL is not mentioned anywhere, but do you have any evidence?". What reaction can we expect? Probably they will exchange sad looks; silently write some mysterious letters into their notebooks, wish us a good day and try not to roll eyes while we're still inside the room. That was the polite version. But maybe they will just show us the finger.

    Best regards,

    Kasimier Buchcik

    Tuesday, June 07, 2011 5:46 PM
  • I might be in the minority here, but I Applaud this move in a way.

    We have to face it, open standards will never go away and MS has to address them.

    I have looked through this thread, and it seems as a some non MS developers are commenting as well.
    This is probably what MS corporate wanted all along.

    They wanted to get the attention of someone who doesn't develop apps using .Net or any of the other MS "non open" technologies.

    If I was MS, I would have done this exactly.

    To first hype Windows 8 to non MS guys and gals is a very good idea IMO.

    Why do this?

    It's simple, from a business standpoint, they already have .net developers as a base.

    The idea in any company is to grow.
    So the first line of business should be annoucing something that will "possibly" bring in "additional" developers to the space.

    After you get other non tradional MS developers excited.
    I then would head my focus towards the base.

    Because as I said,  they already have us, so why would they cater to us "first".

    It wouldn't surprise me if MS is going to actually give "options" for developing apps in the future.

    We could go HTML5/JS or SilverLight .net.

    Something like this would bring in a much larger development base.

    I just don't see them killing .Net (C# or VB).
    Seriously, their is so much demand for .net development in my area (Chicago).

    So this means companies are depended on it.

    I just can't see MS throwing that all away for HTML5 and JavaScript any time soon.
    They both can coexist.

    Sorry for any typos or errors, been up too late :)

    Thanks,
    Mark Richardson

    Richardson's Technology Group
    RichTG.com

    Tuesday, June 07, 2011 6:05 PM
  • If I was MS, I would have done this exactly to hype of Windows 8 for non MS guys and gals.

    So this is all just a game played by MS produce hype about Windows 8? Sadly, you might be right. I wish prankish children would not be allowed into executive positions of companies which have the influence to destroy the careers and the business of loyal developers. I'll stop here, because neither I'm loyal to MS, nor I'm really bound to MS technology. So have fun with your and MS' attitude. A bright future I wish you both.

    Best regards,

    Kasimier Buchcik

    Tuesday, June 07, 2011 6:20 PM
  • I will openly embrace whatever new platform this ends up as, as long is there is a conversion path, and the new technology gives me some advantage.

    The real issue here is communication.  I have a feeling Scott Guthrie warned the windows team about their message, and they ignored it.  Now they have a full on mutiny to contain.

    Perhaps they stick to their guns, and wait to Build... but alot of pressure is being put on them right now.  If we keep making noise, we might get the real story (assuming there is one).


    Tuesday, June 07, 2011 6:25 PM
  • Earlier someone pointed out a real fact.  All of the things we're involved in are add-ons to the OS.  It sounds like MS is bringing in a new environment tied very closely to the OS, and the "Scripting" for that is HTML/JS.  This is a GREAT idea, and should make the platform take off, which should then make our stuff even more valuable, but first MS has to win! The real issue is what Kevin is saying,

    The real issue here is communication.

    You always get concerned when you're talking to someone(like on an ATT iPhone), then all of a sudden...

    CRICKETS....

    Tuesday, June 07, 2011 6:44 PM
  • It sounds like MS is bringing in a new environment tied very closely to the OS, and the "Scripting" for that is HTML/JS.  This is a GREAT idea, and should make the platform take off, which should then make our stuff even more valuable, but first MS has to win!

    Yes! This is true and great! But until we all can script great apps in JS a big chunk of the developers out there will get jobless, because we can't script great apps in JS until a year or so and maybe no one ever will. When MS wins in one year or two or so, *then* customers will order new apps (they won't now, how silly would that be? shiny HTML5/JS isn't out yet) and then it'll be great. So we just need to migrate to a relatively cheap country so we can hibernate (actually a good thing) for a year or two or so, then we'll have a great comeback!

    Best regards & see you in a year or two or so,

    Kasimier Buchcik

    Tuesday, June 07, 2011 6:59 PM
  • If I was MS, I would have done this exactly.

    And, What happened in reality? Did Microsoft achieve its goal? :)

    Tuesday, June 07, 2011 7:17 PM
  • The big issue is that JavaScript has never been used (and should not be used) for business application development. The windows division does not have a clue about developing applications but for some reason they were allowed to destroy the development tools division.

    Tuesday, June 07, 2011 7:32 PM
  • @gpgpu: Both sides of reality would be scary.

    If they hoped for the rage and the hype produced by the devs than this would put them in the room of happy sadists.

    On the other hand if they didn't anticipate all that anger, then they would go into the room of lovely but please-go-upstairs-now children.

    Could be a mixture of both and more, thus multidimensional reality:

    1) trying to find out if the non-MS web devs will jump on the ship if the world suddenly turns around Win8 news

    2) whether customers will not abandon WinX because there's suddenly so much more promise (however one defines this) in the Win8 future wrt the worldwide transition and war related to the tablet/iPad/slate story

    3) whether this will have a positive effect on the stock market

    4) whether they can treat devs a little bit more cruel every year like Apple does without loosing significant support (if you become used to be treated like this by MS, then goodbye my friend; it's like in the politics: the frontier of cruelness will be expand for sure)

    5) then there's the Windows vs DevDiv story: in every company, how small it might be, humans like to play the game of our million years old ancestors: fighting for power, where intelligence and innovation doesn't count but the importance of the size of the chest, which is money nowadays.

    6) - X) is reserved for you personal pleasure

    Hmm, excuse me, I didn't want to insult your intelligence, I just did want to write down the obvious possibilities for my own fun. And no, I sooo don't care if those points are just assumptions without any evidence, because MS doesn't tell me what it's up to even if it can.

    I really wonder what's going on: "Hey, if we turn the knob like this, maybe they will do this.", "Hmm, why not telling them?", "Hey, we're much too mysterious and clever to do the straight-forward thingy... noo, *I* think if we turn that knob like *this*, they will go like *that*, but after some days they will think we thought they would go like that, and *then* they will go like *that*, and *that* is exactly how we want them to go", "Cool", "Yeah, I had the idea when I was deep into Win32 API code... you know... beautiful things... are just so inspiring".

    Best regards & have fun generating lovely rumors MS,

    Kasimier Buchcik

    Tuesday, June 07, 2011 8:12 PM
  • Hey hi there,

    I've read a few messages here and there and well, can't read them all because my old 44 years old eyes hurt
    I just wanted to say a few word before going in the world of sleep. "not the world of goo :)"

    I do Silverlight since April 2007.  Well at first it was basic but now and the future amaze me.  Microsoft Silverlight team is a very dedicated one and very talented.  Ok enough flowers.  What I very like in Silverlight is the speed at which I can develop a web application.  I did a few for customers and it pays.  They are so glad to have their application on the web at the speed they should normally use a normal application every day.

    I would like to thank you MS for Silverlight and my hope is to see it everywhere specially on a MS tablet/slate/touch screen call it whatever you want but not with a Windows OS where we drag windows and close them but rather like iPad which is fluid and I think it's the way people want to work on the future.  Keep the PC for FPS gaming :)

    Well, that's it.  By the wat I tried the Motoroal Xoom with the Honeycomb os and this thing is sloguish and laggy and I dislike their UI.

    UI : User Interface.  This is the most important thing we need as this is what we use to interact with the core.
    Make it interesting, fast and fluid.  The future I tell you !

    Thank you MS !

    Tuesday, June 07, 2011 9:11 PM
  • The big issue is that JavaScript has never been used (and should not be used) for business application development

    why?


    I am for html5/CSS3/JS5, and I used WPF since it was introduced back in .NET 3.0, this year is the first year that I am keeping the decision up to the client to choose the technology they like.

    Html5 or WPF or Silverlight, they are all the same after all, all you needed back in 1993, 1994 is a C++ compiler, resource file with the forms definitions, and a little bit of code to build a business application.

    17 years later, you need tons of technology to build the same business application, and way more time and resources.

    20 years ago I was a teenager, talking about how we will all be developing nanotechnologies, how I will simply grow my car like I grow the garden flowers, all using nano-organisms; and here we are 20 years later spending years rewriting the same Date Time Picker over and over from Windows, to Windows Forms, to WPF, to Silverlight, to Html and the loop continues :-)

    Business applications are so simple after all, about 20 to 30 different user controls on a few forms, and a place to store their data, and search, and a lot of business rules, a business application is all about business rules, they are simple, but they are just a lot.

    And still, 16 years after the introduction of Windows 95, instead of making things simple, like placing the controls on the screen and defining the business rules; it became an overcomplicated task, it is not about the business user anymore, it is all about us the developers and our nonsense ideas, like: everything must be an object, and has properties, or I hate JS it should never be used, and let’s make the user interface knows nothing about the middle tear, and let’s do the impossible workarounds so we can put all the business logic in one dll so we don’t duplicate a single line of code, and let’s make sure the applications knows nothing about the database because this is soooo coool, and let’s take the database to another server, and lets….. (You name it we have it) building an application is now the most bureaucratic thing ever.

    There is Silverlight or there is no Silverlight, I am a contractor, I present the user with his option, costs, and build his application.

    The things that I loved never came, my car or house don’t recognize me I still have to use a key, we don’t have real robotics, nanotechnologies are still almost a fiction, and we made sure our programming stays at the level of drawing lines, and creating tons of technologies that draws them differently and more bureaucratically, and argue if we have to make the property public or private, nice :-)


    Tuesday, June 07, 2011 9:13 PM
  • Casimodo72:

    That was realy funny. I just wish it wasn't so close to the truth. There is definitely some of that "holier than thou" open-standards-loving posturing. They're not gonna win over devs from the other camps - those guys won't touch Windows as a matter of religious belief. 


    Tuesday, June 07, 2011 9:43 PM
  • I am for html5/CSS3/JS5, and I used WPF since it was introduced back in .NET 3.0

    Somehow I doubt that.

    What's a value converter?

    Is it a good idea to run them on the UI thread?

    Which is better a value converter or a multibinding?

    Tuesday, June 07, 2011 9:54 PM
  • I had to join...

    Business applications are so simple after all, about 20 to 30 different user controls on a few forms, and a place to store their data, and search, and a lot of business rules, a business application is all about business rules, they are simple, but they are just a lot.

    Oooh dear... opinion is like butt, everyone's got it.

    it is all about us the developers and our nonsense ideas, like: everything must be an object, and has properties, or I hate JS it should never be used, and let’s make the user interface knows nothing about the middle tear, and let’s do the impossible workarounds so we can put all the business logic in one dll so we don’t duplicate a single line of code, and let’s make sure the applications knows nothing about the database because this is soooo coool, and let’s take the database to another server, and lets….. (You name it we have it) building an application is now the most bureaucratic thing ever.

    Over 15 years in development... heard everything but this...

    The biggest issue of the software industry is that everyone can be developer.

    Thanks god surgeon cannot say "well, atrium doesn't get blood it's all made up", or pilot "wtf why on the earth we need