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Silverlight uses bad programming practices

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  • Silverlight uses bad programming practices, in firefox it sets the process priority to above normal and it calls that set function more then every second, the person that coded that part of the code should be fired and burnt on a stake, why they hired him in the first place is also a good question !

     

    So let me spell it out in simple terms so microsoft / silverlight programmers can understand:

    Do Not Mess With The Process Priority Level !

     

    Especially not without the users consent and especially not without providing a setting to turn it off !

    Setting the process priority to above normal is a cheap and VERY bad way to steal cpu time and give the look like its fast / snappy when in fact it's not.

     

    Wednesday, March 03, 2010 2:00 PM

All replies

  • Hi Carlssonson,

    Thanks for reporting this issue. We will take your suggestion into consideration.

    Sorry for any inconvenience.

    Friday, March 05, 2010 12:53 AM
  •  Your not even following your own guide lines, so you change it now, in a hotfix, craplight have been crashing and causing problems in firefox for months now, always this problem so please no standard we-will-ignore-your-issue-so-f-off message:

    "Thanks for reporting this issue. We will take your suggestion into consideration."

     

    So please do something about it,

    i'm a developer and i know how long it will take to fix this, about a few minutes to an hour at most,

    so cant one of your developers at least spend this little time to fix an issue that a lot of users have ?

    I'm hating microsoft more and more for how they treat their customers. I can understand why people dont buy microsoft products anymore and use pirate versions instead or use open source product, at least if its open source you can fix the problem yourself !

    My microsoft hating rant for today is done. That felt good.

    Saturday, March 06, 2010 2:20 PM
  • Hi Carlssonson,

    I understand it’s frustrating that FireFox keeps crashing for months. Could you tell me what version of FireFox you are using? What the “hotfix” that causes this problem is? Could you tell me how to reproduce this crash? I’d like to set up a VM to test. BTW please disable other FireFox add-ons to isolate this issue first.

    By the way, I sent the email to Production Team after my first reply to your thread, it will take some time for Production team to reproduce and investigate the issue.

    Monday, March 08, 2010 1:42 AM
  • Hi Carlssonson,

    Here is a feedback I got:

        This isn't a bug, but a choice we made to improve the reliability of media decode/playback.

    But since you mentioned it makes FireFox crash, it would be very helpful if you can provide some details (as I mentioned in previous post) on how to reproduce the crash, I'd like to reproduce and test it. Thanks.

    Monday, March 08, 2010 2:23 AM
  • Silverlight uses bad programming practices, in firefox it sets the process priority to above normal and it calls that set function more then every second, the person that coded that part of the code should be fired and burnt on a stake, why they hired him in the first place is also a good question !
     

    Carlssonson,

    I'm using Firefox 3.5.8 and, when loading a Silverlight application, its priority is always set to Normal. So I think it is something else that makes it above normal.

    Try to disable all the plug-in modules in it to see where is really the problem.

    Patrick

    Monday, March 08, 2010 2:27 AM
  • Patrick, Just loading a page that use silverlight is not always sufficient to get firefox priority level molested by silverlight.

     How to replicate:

    1. Go into this page:

    Link: http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/vcsharp/bb798022.aspx?wt.slv=topsectionimg
    2.  Now when you press play button in silverlight player BOOM priority level gets changed.

    And the even more horrifying thing is that when i try to change it back to normal with process explorer, silverlight changes it make up again instantly.

    The next part is from my memory:

    Go to a silverlight page:

    Good silverlight crashing sites is the msdn “How Do I?” pages.

    It crashed for me on those pages several times so it's a good place to do your tests.

    Several ways to crash firefox with silverlight.

    1. Go to a silverlight page, but before it loads 100% ( that red progress bar ) close the tab.

    2.  Go to a silverlight page,press play and while it buffers the video close the tab.

    3. Have several silverligh pages open, some that are "idle" ( not pressed play button) and some that are buffering and one that is playing

    Og boy there are so many combination that can make silverlight crash. Just use you bug hunting side of you brain and you will find them.

    Better yet, do a code review of the silverlight code, oh and the silverlight team should not be involved in that code review for obvious reasons !

     

    Sorry if i'm a bit direct and act a bit like a pitbull on drugs, well what can i say i've had a lot of bad experience with microsoft products, a few examples:

    1 .office craching, lost e-mails

    2. Harddrive fat to ntfs conversion utility hanging and since it hanged i lost over 250 gigabytes of precious data, and i didnt get a refund from microsoft either ( windows xp ) or any other kinds of helpful gesture.

    3. Lots and lots of bsod's, one of the newest one: try running chrome v3 or v4 on a windows xp pro 32 bit with service pack 2 installed.

    Windows will randomly crash, sometimes it will take hours sometimes minutes ( a kernel bug ) fixed or worked around in service pack 3.

    4. No support from microsoft when e-mailed, posted microsoft help forums, feedback channels, etc

    Example 4 is one of the big ones i get most angry about, i mean i thought that microsoft wanted bug reports and help getting the problems fixed but nooo, my help was ignored.Angry

     

    Monday, March 08, 2010 1:27 PM
  • Hi Carlssonson,

    Sorry for my misunderstanding, Thanks for posting the steps to reproduce the issue.

    I do notice the priority issue, as I mentioned before, the feedback I got is that it's by design. I will forward your opinion to production team.

    Then I try to reproduce the scenario which makes FireFox crash as following:

    1. I picked up some websites on silverlight showcase page and open them, before it loads 100%, I close the tab, FireFox works well and I didn't see the crash

    2. I went to msdn “How Do I?” page, click on a video, while it still buffers I close the tab, FireFox works well and I didn't see the crash

    3. I'm listening the video on msdn “How Do I?” page, then I open several other silverlight pages from showcase, FireFox works fine. But I do notice that for some wesites it takes long time to dowload silverlight application and during the downloading I cannot switch to other tabs, but once the dowloading is complete, everything goes well.

    All the test is using FireFox 3.6 on Windows 7. Maybe I miss some scenarios from your side? Could you please try to disable other add-ons and then see if silverlight still makes FireFox crash in above situations? In this way, we can isolate the issue and find if silverlight is conflict with any add-on. Thanks.

    Tuesday, March 09, 2010 4:24 AM
  • Of course when i want it to crash it refuses to, still the problem remains, i'm guessing it's one of those rare crash bugs that only occurs at full moon on a sunday.

     

    Now that i think about it, i did upgrade firefox, so Mozilla team might have made a workaround to prevent craplight from crashing since microsoft refuses to fix their own products, even mozilla team thinks microsoft should do a better job at supporting their own products !!

    Have you gotten any updates from the dev team ?
    Will they fix the very bad priority hack or are they going to walk the same path as office and totally mess with it's user base by poluting their computers with more badly and incorrectly coded low performance products? (Yes office IS bloatware, just run a performance test before and after office installation)

     

     Microsoft can't even make a simple text program correctly (notepad) and that is just sad.

     

    If you can make silverlight work and have good performance the correct way then just don't release the product in the first place !

    This quote comes to mind: "If you can fit the key into the keyhole without hammering it in then it's probably the wrong key."

     

    Saturday, March 13, 2010 1:43 PM
  • Do you ever suspect that it's only you who has a problem, and that perhaps you should calm down? Seriously, if you don't like Silverlight, don't use it. The rest of us will continue to do so.

    Saturday, March 13, 2010 2:41 PM
  • Patrick8639:

    I'm using Firefox 3.5.8 and, when loading a Silverlight application, its priority is
    always set to Normal. So I think it is something else that makes it above normal.
    Try to disable all the plug-in modules in it to see where is really the problem.

    Hi Patrick,

    You're 98.999% right... :)
    I have both IE 8 and Firefox 3.6 installed on one of my laptops... An old Presario 1500 I use
    for testing...
    I have launched several Silverlight 3 apps on Firefox 3.6, 3.5.8 and even on Firefox 3.5.4
    and in most cases, like you said the TM priority level has always remained set to Normal...

    Though there were a couple of occasions like the two links below - which are both
    are running videos on SLV video players -
    http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/vcsharp/bb798022.aspx?wt.slv=topsectionimg
    http://www.silverlight.net/learn/videos/silverlight-videos/getting-started-with-silverlight-development/

    where I've noticed the TM priority level of Firefox indeed jumped from Normal to AboveNormal.
    I had no problem watching those videos and Firefox never crashed in either cases...

    Thanks Frank for the reply about the reliability of media decode/playback.
    Now I know why... But don't worry...I won't make a big case out of it :)

    Saturday, March 13, 2010 4:45 PM
  • Hi Carlssonson,

    As I mentioned, the priority is not a bug, it's a design choice. And the crash you encountered is for some other reasons we don't know because we cannot reproduce it according to your steps. Silverlight does have some bugs and we're trying to make it better and better, and in my opinion, this is the process with all of the programs and technologies.

    If there're some other scenarios that I missed to reproduce the crash issue, please let me know and I will try to reproduce it, thanks.

    Sunday, March 14, 2010 8:42 PM
  • To Tim Dawson:
    "Do you ever suspect that it's only you who has a problem"
    Yes i do have a problem, a big problem with microsoft due to a long list of things that microsoft have done over the years and still continuous to do.

    "perhaps you should calm down"
    In fact i'm a very calm person, to the extreme some say.

    I sometime do tend to go nuclear when talking about microsoft things, long story short: Crap piles up and when no one removes crap once in a while, well you get the idea, i hope. ( Bugs and hacks never gets fixed, etc..)

    "Seriously, if you don't like Silverlight, don't use it."

    If i only could i would be a happier man indeed but no i can't because sites i visit use it (for some strange reason, insanity comes to mind, among other things) so here we are, i'm forced to use craplight and thats why i complain.

    One obvious example is the "How do i?" section in msdn, silverlight videos. whats wrong with ex. html5 (or flash if you have to) ? oh right internet explorer doesnt support it right ?)

    (Still not following? ok read on)

    I complain because i want the bugs and hacks to get fixed and i also want microsoft to fix their damn teams (very short version: stop hire dumb people already)

     

    I go nuclear because I'm stuck with products like silverlight and all bugs and hacks included that never gets fixed and are tagged as "by design".

    As a joke it would be funny:

    User: "Silverlight makes firefox crash"

    Support: "Oh that's by design use internet explorer instead"

    but it's not a joke, it's by design.

     

    To Frank Lan:

    Yes, yes, as i said i can't reproduce the crashes anymore.

    I will notify you if...when i get the crashes again.

    About the priority level thing:

    Still an option to disable this "by design" thing would be nice.

    Btw over use (spamming) of this set priority level function is very bad. ( I mean what would you say if a product you where forced to use spam-called a settings function (bad example: changed system wide font or DPI settings ))
    Flash does this too but they only set the priority level once at start up and that enables me to manually turn it down to normal proper level again.

    It's funny and sad that even adobe can do this better then microsoft. ( We all know how much adobe pdf reader sucks )

     

    A side question: why did you create silverlight ? We have flash, other tech exists too and html5 was coming so why reinvent the wheel ?

    Is this another blue-ray vs hd-dvd thing ? You just had to invent something similar (but with less quality) just to earn some cash ? (And piss of every movie lover out there)

     

     

    Anyway now i've pointed at some of the problems so at least now you can't say you "didn't know about it".

    Monday, March 15, 2010 12:50 AM
  • Nevermind

    I don't know why i still bother reporting bad behaviors when you always refuse to fix them, even security holes you refuse to fix, that is until somebody starts to use that hole for bad things.

    Also you poked the bear with "by design"

    Monday, March 15, 2010 1:09 AM
  • Hi Carlssonson,

    Thanks a lot for your concern on silverlight and the priority issue. I'm sure production team will consider it:)

    Monday, March 15, 2010 2:02 AM