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Windows 8 apps going html5, wtf

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  • Just watched the first official Windows 8 video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p92QfWOw88I. While I like the UI/UX, I don't like that we are supposed to write Windows 8 apps in html/js. Wow, thats the stupids thing I ever heard. Microsoft has a first class cross-platform application framework called Silverlight and they want us to write freaking javascript. Really!? Probably the next version of WindowsPhone will run HTML5 as well. C'mon, I'm really disappointed.

    Any thoughts?

    Did I mention that i'm disappointed. Frown HTML for text, XAML for apps, what's so complicated?

    An disappointed Silverlight developer.

    Wednesday, June 01, 2011 8:06 PM

All replies

  • Potentially TERRIBLE news. It almost puts me in a state of shock. My biggest fears coming into Windows 8 was that, as a mostly WPF+.NET developer, was that they would shift everything to Silverlight and leave the FULL platform (can you write a VisualStudio in Silverlight? of course not, not designed for that) in the dust. To my utter shock, they did something much, much, much worse.

    I say 'potentially' because, it is possible WPF and Silverlight will be able to be everywhere and do everything that the Html5+JavaScarry "platform" (replacing XAML + C#.... can you believe your eyes? I can't) can do in full integration into the slick riding OS. There is reason to hope that is the case.

    <

    4:49 pm: Where is Silverlight in all this?

    There’s still a place for Silverlight, says Sinofsky. “The browser that we showed runs Silverlight and it will still run on the desktop.”

    />

    But Microsoft reps reading this, I admonish you to make things clear in the fullest sense of the term ASAP. It's hard to not enter panic mode, when our investments in .NET look to be seriously demoted. Even worse, demoted in place of what is clearly the most hated programming language (not even object oriented! ... boy are we taking steps back). So please get on the message boards ASAP, because when Mr. Sinofsky said, 'There's a PLACE still for Silverlight,' (let's throw WPF and .NET fully into that), we would really like to know if that place is an isolated corner, or a fully, absolutely integrated "place." It will be shock and awe if the answer is no.


    Wednesday, June 01, 2011 8:56 PM
  • An disappointed Silverlight developer.

    Ok, does anyone from the "nothing has changed" crowd want to stand up and tell us again that nothing has changed?

    So what's the deal Microsoft, has .NET just been a huge mistake? Now they're not just f*****g Silverlight developers, they're f*****g WPF developers as well? The video is just another nail in the coffin for Silverlight. Only a complete f*****g idiot would start a new major project in Silverlight, WPF, or Winforms now. What are you people thinking, are you insane?

    Just so there's no confusion, when my text is edited, the *** stands for

    F - * - * - * - * - * - G

    Because we've just been F****D.

    [Edited by Pete to slightly obscure the more colorful words.]

    Wednesday, June 01, 2011 9:04 PM
  • I'm actually bummed about this, but I don't think it's that extreme.

    Apparently there are 2 app modes in Win8: let's call them "classic" and "new UI". You can write classic apps in any old dev environment, so WinForms, C++, whatever, works just fine.

    The question is how can we build those sexier and touch-friendly apps? Is it really only HTML+JS? That would be very disappointing given how painful HTML development is compared to Silverlight or other .NET stacks for that matter.  Maybe we'll be surprised with incredible tooling but I'm not counting on it, especially with Scott Guthrie focusing more on Azure these days.

    I'm going to sharpen up my Notepad skills :)

    Wednesday, June 01, 2011 9:13 PM
  • tired with all this for restful Java I cry. I do plan to learn android development, and who knows perhaps at some point objective-c

    Wednesday, June 01, 2011 9:59 PM
  • It's time to flee away from MS, they are just insane Frown Looks like Vista "success" was not enough for them.

    Wednesday, June 01, 2011 11:11 PM
  • dude calm down, it's the FIRST preview of a completely unfinished product.  Product management and marketing are a delicate skill.  They are stressing HTML 5 becasue they are trying to attract app developers (especially from large enterprises which have essentially ignored Silverlight).  Given that there has been a huge investment into silvelight development tools which work in this particular kind of environment I really doubt all that effort would just be avoided.  When WP7 tools were being announced they did not mention VB.net; guess what, you can now develop for WP7 with VB.net so chillax dude.  No need to start dropping F-bombs.  Yikes!

    Wednesday, June 01, 2011 11:23 PM
  • it's people like you guys that make companies like MIcrosoft keep quite about thier plans.  Something that ultimately hurts people like me who like to play with early bits.  Given this kind of reaction I can see why everything MS is so hush hush about every freaking thing.  Shut up and wait and listen before overreacting like this.  Sorry they did not point out every development platform you can build apps in.  No POWERSHELL!!!  OH NO!!! I HATE MICROSOFT NOW!!  What no F#!  Your a bunch of Chicken Littles!

    Wednesday, June 01, 2011 11:29 PM
  • Sorry they did not point out every development platform you can build apps in.  No POWERSHELL!!!  OH NO!!! I HATE MICROSOFT NOW!!  What no F#!  Your a bunch of Chicken Littles!

    They must explicitly support already existing developers for their platform. So they MUST say something like that: Win8 apps can be developed by using standard .Net development tools (WinForms, WPF, Silverlight) with any supported managed language. Also it's possible to use HTML5+JS.

    Wednesday, June 01, 2011 11:48 PM
  • Yeah, but the question is, why is the html/js crap the first class citizen in the new Windows 8 app model. Let Silverlight beside, why isn't it .NET in general. Sometime I'm really doubtful about the whole .NET commitment of Microsoft. 

    Wednesday, June 01, 2011 11:52 PM
  • @sipank + @bitdisa...

    dude, it is literally a 10 minute press spot where they talk about a few things.  They mention that apps can be build using an HTML 5 model.  Now lets just put aside the fact that this was probably just mantioned to position themselves in the iPad/android/playbook party as not being the "same old windows" and  ask yourself something, what does HTML 5 run in? (hmm, well a browser right).  Now ask yourself what else can run in HTML 5 on a browser? hmm...Silverlight?  Now ask yourself what other desktop widget model is HTML + Javascript based but you can build using silverlight?  hmm...gadgets.  Like I said.  Stop getting carried away.  What you should take out of this post is that MIcrosoft has shown a strong commitment to rejuvinating the antiquated UI model on some level.  Sure it still looks like ugly windows behind the scenes but who knows, perhaps they will build a file-system explorer and skins for other such apps so that on my tablet i dont have to leave the new Operating Environment they have in place.  once again, chillax and wait for PDC.  Be happy you dont have to live in a world where Apple is really running things (yikes)

    Thursday, June 02, 2011 12:50 AM
  • dude, it is literally a 10 minute press spot where they talk about a few things.

    Sorry, but your optimism seems unwarranted and my reaction isn't knee jerk. First, the shift in strategy. Then the pathetic first day keynote at Mix. Then a beta release that has almost none of the features that MICROSOFT developers are asking for. Then Ballmer down playing Silverlight. And now this. It has been clear for quite a while that the OS group avoids .NET. Why isn't Windows 8 a .NET only OS? Why isn't office 100% .NET at this point? .NET was introduced a decade ago. Microsoft used to eat its own dogfood, it's pathetic that the other divisions are lagging so far behind. And now they're going out of their way to hype up HTML5? At the very least that's yet another data point for people to present as evidence that Microsoft has no strong commitment to Silverlight. Seriously, would ANYONE be surprised if they sunset it tomorrow? I wouldn't be.

    HTML5??? Microsoft isn't eating their own dogfood, they're eating their own vomit.

    Thursday, June 02, 2011 1:21 AM
  • It may just be a very cool thing if they are brewing a way to utilize html5 + javascript **without us having to mess with javascript** (exactly what ASP.NET does on the client side). But it is NOT cool if .NET is not being fully committed to, and that is the problem.

    Let's make this very clear: The problem is that they said the 'new Windows 8 apps' will be based on Html5 + Javascript, NOT: WPF, Silverlight, and an exciting new app framework we're brewing, based on Html5 + Javascript. Where's .NET in that? That is no oversight. It is clearly the main thing on their radar screen right now, and that is a big problem.

    Jack Bond: on MS Office, no. .NET rocks, but it wasn't ever intended to completely replace all unmanged solutions. Office is an unmanaged beast if there ever was one. While I would love WPF's FlowDocument and RichTextBox to be efficient enough to work for Word, that is obvioulsy not the case. But especially with the port of VisualStudio to WPF, Microsoft has been 'eating its own dogfood'.

     

    Thursday, June 02, 2011 1:48 AM
  • Microsoft may yell and scream about Silverlight all they want but in the end the success or failure of Silverlight may well be determined by developers (Ballmer knows this quite well.  Remember the monkey boy dance). 

    MS has has been on the ropes the last several years.  They have clearly taken a defensive, reactive strategy.  This may be ok for the short term but it's not going to work for the long term.  Someone has to be the leader.  Over the long haul the market consolidates behind a leader.   Where I'm going with this is to say that SL and its supporting technologies are a knockout punch.  MS needs to quit trying to accomodate the standand and BE the standard.  There is a clear niche for SL and MS needs to grow it.

    I am a .net developer. I write .net code for a living. I've been using MS products since I was 20, I'm now almost 45. I was an IT manager for over 20 years. Over the course of my career I've been responsible for millions of dollars of revenue for MS. As a developer I've stuck with MS because honestly I'm too old to change. For several years I was very disapointed with the pace of development at MS. But the last few years MS seems to slowly be getting their act together. We now have LINQ, and Entity Framework (its getting better, really), and SL. These are awesome technologies! I love them!  

    But I will tell you this:  If I don't see some SERIOUS SL apps being introduced with Windows 8 in the next 60 to 90 days I am going to make a PERSONAL COMMITMENT to abandon every investment I have made in MS (and I have made many) and find another devlopment platform (I have no idea what it might be).  If you write .net code for a living or if you buy MS technologies for your company you need to make the same PERSONAL COMMITMENT and state it here.   MS only understands the language of money.  Lets speak to Balmer in words he understands.  Enough already.

    Thursday, June 02, 2011 1:51 AM
  • I still think Silverlight will be on the platform, but when you read stuff like this...

    "A Windows 8-based PC is really a new kind of device, one that scales from touch-only small screens to large screens, with or without a keyboard and mouse," the company said. Windows 8 will support traditional desktop apps, and HTML5 and JavaScript tablet apps that fill the entire screen when launched.

    Well, it really makes you wonder.  Having said that, HTML/Javascript represents the largest group of developers the world has ever seen, so it opens the door for Microsoft to have a really wide ranging platform.

    In short, it's a VERY smart business decision.  It will be up to us to deliver what our customers need, and prove our case.

    None of us should have a problem with that, it just looks like we don't have the partner we thought we had.

    Thursday, June 02, 2011 1:57 AM
  • BTW, I LOVE Windows 8!

    Just because the UI is IE10 based, i.e. HTML/JS/CSS, doesn't mean the apps won't be a lot of things.

    This could get exciting!

    Thursday, June 02, 2011 2:01 AM
  • Frankly the "chillax" club doesn't inspire me with confidence.

    For college kids with nothing much at stake, who just write occasional fun apps in their spare time, "chillaxing" until PDC/Build might make sense. For professionals with millions of dollars and thousands of hours invested, it's a bit different. "Chillaxing" can literally cost you your company.

    I can spend the next 3 months poking around nervously at my code while I wait for more microsoft press releases, or I can spend the time, for example, rebuilding the kernel of my 100k line c# application in c++ so I can target both android and ios instead. Am I missing something, or did the latter option just become 10x more attractive?

    Thursday, June 02, 2011 2:17 AM
  • Statement about IE10 being able to run Silverlight is pretty hilarious. I wonder if it will be able to show HTML too.

    Thursday, June 02, 2011 2:21 AM
  • @eclipsesoft

    actually in 1:20 into the video it clearly states that this is an introduction of a new platform for building these kinds of apps.  I dont see how that equates to "you cant use silverlight".

    @jackbond

    this tile UI app they are discussing look to me like a continuation the Gadget story from Vista/Windows 7.

    You would not be surprised if sivlerlight was dropped altogether ?!?  That statement reveals your line of thinking and argument as completely irrational so I wont engage you beyond this.  Consider this however:

    1) As i stated in my post.  Silverlight RUNS IN HTML and just like you can build gadgets in silverlight I am sure you will be able to build these "apps" in silverlight

    2) WP7 requires Silverlight for native applications and Microsoft just spent $9 billion dollars (skype + nokia) on that platform.  Niether WP7 nor Silverlight are going anywhere

    3) based on previous leaks, windows 8 also introduces a silverlight based app model complete with downloads from the marketplace.

    I'll see you at build and tell you "i told you so" there :-)

    As can be clearly seen from the demo, native apps and w8 apps run side by side in the start screen. I am also certain there will be a managed API available to us for updating our apps (similar to what windows 8 provides).

    Thursday, June 02, 2011 2:33 AM
  •  

    But I will tell you this:  If I don't see some SERIOUS SL apps being introduced with Windows 8 in the next 60 to 90 days I am going to make a PERSONAL COMMITMENT to abandon every investment I have made in MS (and I have made many) and find another devlopment platform (I have no idea what it might be). 

    Good luck.  You sound like a spoiled 5 year old.  I give you 2 days after adopting the dreadfull eclipse, Flex, or nightmare that is xCode before you come running back.  iOS might "look" great but it is horrific to develop against.  Horrific.  The android emulator runs like a punishment from hell and the only thing that makes it worth developing is Monodroid in VS.net.   Your living in paradise complaining that the steak has too much meat in it.  You'll be back ;-) 

    Thursday, June 02, 2011 2:42 AM
  • I still think Silverlight will be on the platform, but when you read stuff like this...

    "A Windows 8-based PC is really a new kind of device, one that scales from touch-only small screens to large screens, with or without a keyboard and mouse," the company said. Windows 8 will support traditional desktop apps, and HTML5 and JavaScript tablet apps that fill the entire screen when launched.

    This is specifically called out because people understand HTML5 to be an in-browser experience.  Traditional windows applications ALWAYS have the option to also be full screen.  Any windows based Kiosk functions in this manner.

    Thursday, June 02, 2011 2:45 AM
  • Frankly the "chillax" club doesn't inspire me with confidence.

    For college kids with nothing much at stake, who just write occasional fun apps in their spare time, "chillaxing" until PDC/Build might make sense. For professionals with millions of dollars and thousands of hours invested, it's a bit different. "Chillaxing" can literally cost you your company.

    I can spend the next 3 months poking around nervously at my code while I wait for more microsoft press releases, or I can spend the time, for example, rebuilding the kernel of my 100k line c# application in c++ so I can target both android and ios instead. Am I missing something, or did the latter option just become 10x more attractive?

     

    before you go any further with your measuring contest, you should not that Edward Moemeka wrote the First C# book  - Professional C# back in 1999 while you were probably IUknowning yourself to death.  So if the "panick" club member with millions of dollars in investments worked for MY multi-million dollar company and came to me to tell me that they wanted to "change the kernel" because of a 4:33 puff piece I would seriously wonder about thier ability to manage anything more than some little never going to get anywhere startup.  I suggest you follow the appropriate channels like every other "real" professional developer and work your MS contacts to get clarity instead of ranting about something you actually dont even have enough information about to form a valid opinion.  It is reactionary and absolutely the wrong way to run a "real" busines.

    Thursday, June 02, 2011 2:56 AM
  • 2) WP7 requires Silverlight for native applications and Microsoft just spent $9 billion dollars (skype + nokia) on that platform.  Niether WP7 nor Silverlight are going anywhere

     I could be wrong but I heard Ballmer saying the next WP will be Windows 8 based. So that means either SL will be a first class citizen on Windows 8 or we write the next WP apps in fu**** html/js. I really hope for the first one.

    Thursday, June 02, 2011 3:03 AM
  • I am Silverlight\WPF developer myself.

    I've been working on a lot of Silverlight apps in the last years, I also invested a lot in this technology.

    I've just seen the video. I also came across this thread.

    Man, the Silverlight developers can be a pretty *** pissed off army of developers :))


    At some point, it might occur that you must learn tens or maybe hundreds of new things like terminology, way of doing stuff.

    Mentally, this is frustrating.

    There's a new era of frustrations and stress coming up from learning new stuff !  Enjoy it ! :D

    That's how life goes as a developer. 


    Personally, I think we will hear more on Silverlight support for Windows 8 in the upcoming days


    Thursday, June 02, 2011 3:55 AM
  • Oh and remeber what Ballmer was screaming once: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8To-6VIJZRE

    LOL

    Beside every one of us, think also about companies which hugely invested over the last years in Silverlight. Telerik for example.

    Thursday, June 02, 2011 4:37 AM
  • And There Was Wailing and Gnashing of Teeth Amoung SL-ists

    BWAHAHAH

    And I couldn't be happier. BWAHAHAH

    Wait a minute, are telling me that while many developers are suffering as their investment in SL is going mostly down the drain, when their livelihood is in jeopardy because many SL projects are thrown out the window, you are HAPPY??

    In a word, SURE. These developers didn't and still DON'T give a damn about what the OPEN web means. In 2007'ish, they were all routing for more SL clients around the web (their reasoning: if Flash did it, why can't SL? Well, Flash came in f**king 1996 or so. NO EXCUSE FOR PUSHING PROPREITARY *** IN 2007, IT'S A DIFFERENT GAME TODAY). They were gullible enough to buy MSFT's line of SL being cross-platform. Well here's news to you: SL5's 3D isn't working on the Mac. This is just a taste of things were SL was to succeed. Thank the $deity it fall flat on its face.

    On a bright note, Microsoft is going to fully open SL and DOTNET one day. Until it does it will slowly wither and die in this brave new open-source development world. It might be the most advanced technology in the galaxy. Who cares, let the rich kid play by him/her-self. The rest of the gang is plying (and making ton of $) together.

    Piece.

    [If there's a developer here who DON'T wish there more sites like (the current) netflix, ie. who doesn't wish more there are more internet sites who require the user to have SL, just ignore my post, sorry]

    Thursday, June 02, 2011 4:43 AM
  • WP7 = Silverlight

    Windows 8 = HTML5

    Whoever thought up this strategy needs to be sacked quickly. Crazy!

    Thursday, June 02, 2011 4:43 AM
  • One more thing.

    Microsoft clearly sucks big time at marketing.

    This is the 2nd time when they started a tsunami of disbelief in Silverlight. First one was with HTML5 having more priority then Silverlight.

    But probably is just us who sees it that way. They were actually honest about it and they wanted to let us know about the future plans :)

    However, if you smash Silverlight like that, how do you think people will continue to adopt it?

    I guess there are still plenty of it. Also maybe it's because they already decided that WP7 will change.

    I just hope with all this new wave of HTML5 Microsoft will also bring a new HTML5 developer technology\paradigm\toolkit with a fantastic support in Visual Studio.


    Thursday, June 02, 2011 4:54 AM
  • You realize that there are some of us that are already providing a tooling story for HTML/JS, whether you are a .NET developer (ReSharper 6) or not (WebStorm).



    Thursday, June 02, 2011 5:26 AM
  • We can do something and state clearly our support for Silverlight as the main development technology for Win 8.

    We have an uservoice request here:

    http://dotnet.uservoice.com/forums/4325-silverlight-feature-suggestions/suggestions/1894125-main-language-for-the-windows-8-development

    Leaving this clear I think it is a good exercise ;).

    Thursday, June 02, 2011 6:46 AM
  • I'm really just finally starting out in WPF. I really like it and if I'm honest I'm not a great fan of HTML/CSS because of the inconsistencies between browsers. I'm aware I'm not alone in that respect. My worry isn't about historical investment in WPF, but the fact that I'm just starting out. I hope I'm not writing the new Betamax for my new apps.

    However, If one takes a deep breath, relaxes and looks at it again, it's unlikely that .NET will be dropped totally. MS do have a good history (often to their own detriment) of backwards-compatibility, and I reckon that in the fullness of time there will be "layers" of apps: 1) HTML5/CSS3 for tiles and "widgets", SL might be part of the "tile" story. 2) LOB apps that want to talk to local databases etc but still solve the business problems in a RAD-fashion will be WPF (WinForms will be supported but possibly discouraged for new apps) and 3) those apps that need to get down to nitty-gritty close-to-the-metal stuff or require super high performance will be for C/C++ devs with brains far larger than mine.

    It's not much different from WP7 apps being totally SL-based. They're trying to tidy-up a long-established line of inconsistent apps and UI tech to give "mom and pop" users a better experience. My Dad loves his iPhone but still struggles with the fact that Windows isn't the Pit of Success when it comes to usability and stability.

    Let's face it, advanced users (application/IT support, testing teams, DBAs, developers) will not use this new HTML5 veneer, because it's not meant for them. This is MS taking a look at their customer base, comparing it with the iPhone customer base, and realising they need a simpler OS UI that allows people to watch videos, check emails, mess with their pictures etc. It's simply moving to a "task-based UI" on a grander scale.

    Of course, tooling goes a long way to calm .NET devs in these situations. At the moment many may be worried by the prospect of using Notepad to write their Windows apps and struggle with debugging and implementation inconsistencies. However I'm sure that companies like JetBrains and DevExpress will be there to help.

    It will be fine, don't worry. :)

    Thursday, June 02, 2011 8:11 AM
  • pretty hilarious. I wonder if it will be able to show HTML too.

    *ouch!* that was funny ('will IE show HTML too?').

    Nice to have one laugh in this MS tornado wreckage, the debris made up of the .NET framework apparently. Ahhh, I hope that is not true, but if we have to wait till September to find out? Go to BUILD site, I bet all you'll hear of at that conference, after the 3month wait, is more html/js hoopla, I want to hear about their plans for .NET as the future of rich application development.

    What about the real developers that have been committed to Windows? As Gates said, the future is all driven by software, ... if us .NET people had abandoned MS, where would they be?

    Who can't wait to wait for 3 months so that they can just hear even more about the wonder of html/js?

    HOW ABOUT A FUTURE OF .NET CONFERENCE? WHERE'S THE LOVE.

    Thursday, June 02, 2011 8:44 AM
  • And There Was Wailing and Gnashing of Teeth Amoung SL-ists

    BWAHAHAH

    And I couldn't be happier.

    Wait a minute, are telling me that while many developers are suffering as their investment in SL is going mostly down the drain, when their livelihood is in jeopardy because many SL projects are thrown out the window, you are HAPPY??

    In a word, SURE. These developers didn't and still DON'T give a damn about what the OPEN web means.....

    Hey "FanBaby", thanks for chiming in so we could hear from one of those millions of html/js fans, and how they are going to be the next generation of Windows developers. Yeah sure.

    Thursday, June 02, 2011 8:55 AM
  • Hey man,

    Don't worry they will still be a place in browser and out of browser Silverlight apps! I'm still working 20 hours a day working on silverlightmarket.com.

    It will enable you guys to push silverlight apps to a marketplace with no annual cost and also only 10-20% commission (based on apps created).

    I'll update you guys in a few months. Must get on!

    If anyone is interested in getting involved with the project, pop me a private message :)

    Many Thanks,
    Ash. 

    Thursday, June 02, 2011 8:58 AM
  • You guys do realise that of course there going to keep SL support.

    But html5 / js is a perfectly solid development platform. It's fantastic to be able to port part of your website to a native windows app. 

    There are plenty of advantages to using html5 / js and there not to be frowned upon. 

    Thursday, June 02, 2011 9:32 AM
  • I certainly hope this was another miscommunication on MS part. If I was someone planning on making a business out of Windows Phone 7.X apps and Windows 8 apps targetted for tablets I would be pissed.

    I dont want to have to write a Silverlight/XNA based UI with client side processing done with C#/VB.NET and all the power of .NET Framework for Windows Phone 7.x and then have to build a Windows 8 client with HTML5 and JavaScript. What if I made an XNA or XNA/Silverlight based game that I want to run on Windows Phone 7.x and then on Windows 8 tablets?

    It is important to understand that what iPhone/iPad and Android phone/tablets have done is once again put rich client application development in the forefront.  Why would MS with all the .NET developers in the world give away the productivity leadership they hold over Objective C and Java so they can build HTML5/JavaScript based apps. 

    Thursday, June 02, 2011 9:34 AM
  • At this point html5/js is a horrible development platform - not to be compared for developing business apps with SL/WPF/C#. I have not seen a single project developed purely in html/js. In fact JS sucks so much that people prefer regenerating and resending the code from the server for purely client side operations.

    I just hope that the MS failure is going to be fast and it will get back to its senses.

    Thursday, June 02, 2011 9:44 AM
  • In 90s MS beated apple because the developers were producing many more apps for MS than for Apple. That was partly due to the fact that MS cared more about its developers and created good development tools and languages.

    With HTML/JS coming in the forefront, the number of new applications for MS platform is going to shrink drastically

    Thursday, June 02, 2011 9:51 AM
  • actually in 1:20 into the video it clearly states that this is an introduction of a new platform for building these kinds of apps.  I dont see how that equates to "you cant use silverlight".

    Actually Sir, I never say anything like that. Of course they wouldn't just kill .NET. I did say that it very well may indicate a demotion of WPF and Silverlight as the future, which are a billion times more pleasing to work with, the best programming framework ever, in place for the worst? We used to talk about wanting Windows to fully integrate with WPF (now also Silverlight, but it needs to be both), now, when the day has come, we get Html and JavaScarriness in place of the beauty we know.

    Also, I think you miss the point, which is not just what it says at 1:20, but what it doesn't say at 1:30. They talk about this new windows 8 app model, and .NET WPF / SL is not mentioned as part of that. You don't think that is a problem? Gee, open your eyes please. Look at that BUILD site, it is ONLY about Html5, nothing .NET.

    WAITING FOR A MS RESPONSE ASSURING US OF THE *SOLID* FUTURE OF .NET IN THE ONLY OS THAT SUPPORTS IT.

    Thursday, June 02, 2011 9:58 AM
  • But html5 / js is a perfectly solid development platform. It's fantastic to be able to port part of your website to a native windows app. 

    There are plenty of advantages to using html5 / js and there not to be frowned upon. 

    yeah, we know what HTML5/JS can do

    but do you realize what HTML5/JS can not do?

    Thursday, June 02, 2011 10:03 AM
  • As a UI layer what can HTML5/CSS3/JS not do?

    Thursday, June 02, 2011 10:18 AM
  • So far it has not been able provide a good environment for business app development, code re-use, etc.

    Thursday, June 02, 2011 10:28 AM
  • Seriously, who decided that we should start basing all of our computing around the most abysmally slow language!? Evolution just doesn't make any sense sometimes.

    Thursday, June 02, 2011 10:42 AM
  • If your referring to JS. It's only about 2-3x slower then C++ and development time in a dynamic language like javascript is significantly faster. It also has none of the overhead of loading the JVM or the .NET framework.

    Thursday, June 02, 2011 10:56 AM
  • Video: “Today, we also talked a bit about how developers will build apps for the new system. Windows 8 apps use the power of HTML5, tapping into the native capabilities of Windows using standard JavaScript and HTML to deliver new kinds of experiences,” Larson-Green stated.

    These new Windows 8 apps are full-screen and touch-optimized, and they easily integrate with the capabilities of the new Windows user interface. There’s much more to the platform, capabilities and tools than we showed today.”

    Brew on those words the few of you who act like the other 95% of us are blowing things out of proportion. There could not be a clearer way of saying that HTML5+JavaScream are THE future WINDOWS 8 APPS.

    Also, someone said, 'Yeah, but they said there is much more coming' in quoting that last line, and so maybe that referred to .NET. No, sorry, the way this works is like this: they would have then introduced things by showing how WPF and SL, which ARE NOT NEW, run this slick system, BUT THEN say: "hey, we ALSO have something up our sleeve, something 'much more' than you've seen yet for developing apps." That would then be an ADDITIONAL Html5-JS model, with no threat at all of replacing WPF and SL for such things. So that last line is obviously referring to new probably VisualStudio tools for doing Html5.

    Now then, we can look forward to a HTML-JS future for their app-store, mostly or only? 

    Thursday, June 02, 2011 10:57 AM
  • To be fair .NET apps never have had first class shell treatment. If you look at the Windows API Bridge / Code Pack / whatever they call it these days – it’s a bunch of PIAs to native code. I think this stems back to something that cropped up in the Avalon project during the Vista development days. The original goal was managed APIs for everything and then the big reset happened and whomever was championing that went quiet. I can’t think of a managed language that has ever been a first class citizen in an OS – not OS X, OS/2, or even BeOS.

    I do wonder, however, about the efforts to move XAML into the OS and bridge some Silverlight 5 work through the Jupiter project. MJ blogged about it in January but later noted that Soma told her that some of the information is out of date. Maybe there is still hope or maybe the animosity between Windows and Developer divisions continues?

    It feels like Microsoft is taking a page from HP’s WebOS book. The question now is will they bastardize HTML and JavaScript to be a mutant form that will only work under Windows 8? I think that’s a safe bet because otherwise they are opened to others implementing shims to make it work on another OS (X). I hope they at least learned something from Media Center’s custom HTML-like approach that never took off with developers.

    Should be interesting… Wish I could attend the Build conference but with the new kid being fresh out of the gate around that time I’ll have to just watch the streams from home. The last thing I want, however, is to return to a day of managing pointers. There are very few good C++ programmers out there in my experience…

    Thursday, June 02, 2011 10:59 AM
  • Its not the slowness that really bothers me. It is that writing in C#/VB.NET is more productive and less error prone than JavaScript. Then with server side logic and client side logic we will need to duplicate logic for business rules, etc. If we use Silverlight then the business rules can be implemented once and then maintained in one place.  If the logic on the client is JavaScript we need to re-implement.

    Thursday, June 02, 2011 11:13 AM
  • MS does not have a tablet strategy. Wp7 developers all prefer to have an extended tablet API, so one can build an app for WP7 and tablet. Users could also buy and run the same apps on WP7 and tablets. It is like for iPhone and iPad. But it seems that MS wants to protect the Windows business and don't think about what Developers and users want. MS wants to support 3 screens. then Silverlight & XNA should be the main API. If HTML5 & JavaScript is also supported for gadgets, that's fine. But that should not be the preferred way. It seems that the Windows division does not work well with other divisions. They want to do their own thing. That's why MS is far behind Apple and Google these days.
    Thursday, June 02, 2011 11:25 AM
  • My prediction is that whoever is going to pick up pieces from MS will go back to silverlight, but for now thing look very bad. Who knows, perhaps Mono will acquire Microsoft eventually:)

    Thursday, June 02, 2011 11:52 AM
  • @samw I agree with you. And thats pretty much what I would do too, if MS leavs .net/sl/wpf in dust in Windows 8.

    But there is some hope, here is why they wouldn't do this.

    1. They had a tight spot as a non-dev conference, and way to get idiot from the new media exited is to talk about HTML 5, which also takes thunder away from Chromebooks. And that's what MS did.

    2. If they stop supporting .net and wen HTML 5/JS, it would mean they r putting they enterprise custoemers on a plate and presenting to Google and Apple. Because all these new apps will now work on all modern browsers, so why should we all buy Windows.

    3. Contrary to popular belief, HTML 5 is not ready yet. It may work for social networking or video viewer applications. But for a line of business app, a word processor or imade editing application. you do need robust local storage, rich networking and threading support. and Javascript is not the answer.

    Thursday, June 02, 2011 12:20 PM
  • >Good luck.  You sound like a spoiled 5 year old.
    No, a spoiled 45 year old :P


    I am currently contracting for a company that is redeveloping a very, very large .net portal system.  This portal is a PERFECT candidate for SL and I tried my best to get them to look at SL (see my Rate My Whitepaper post) but these guys would not even CONSIDER SL because they are convinced that SL is a passing fad AND THERE IS NOT ONE SHRED OF EVIDENCE FROM MS TO THE CONTRARY.  This company is spending well over $1 million to rewrite their portal in asp.net 3.5 (they would have moved to php but they have too much invested in MS infrastructure).


    Look, MS is getting their butt kicked in every market.  The only place where they are still a contender is the corporate enterprise and they are seriously jeopardizing their position by being ambiguous about their development platform going forward.  The fact that we are having this discussion is a clear signal that someone is sleeping on the job in Redmond.  


    If SL were some sloppy halfassed platform it would be understandable that MS would hedge their bet with something else.  But SL is a fantastic product.  The lack of marketing and publicity is alarming.  What’s going on?  There are a lot of detractors and pundits and who don't understand the technology and the "HTML vs. Silverlight" argument has been very effective.  As many others have pointed out that argument is a false dilemma - each product has its own purpose.   But the truth is not getting through to the decision makers.  Silverlight has not been BRANDED or POSITIONED in the market.  By the time MS gets around to branding it, it may be too late. 

    Perhaps what we are seeing is just a catastrophic failure in the MS marketing machine.  I hear all this talk about which browser supports what and how people don’t want to install a plugin, yada, yada.  That is just baloney.  The customers who are going to make Silverlight a success are the ones who evaluate it for how fast they can get a product to market and how cheaply they can maintain it.  SO WHO IS GOING TO GET THE WORD OUT FOR YOU MICROSOFT, SINCE YOU CANT SEEM TO DO IT ON YOUR OWN.

    Thursday, June 02, 2011 12:28 PM
  • Office is an unmanaged beast if there ever was one.

    One module at a time.

    While I would love WPF's FlowDocument and RichTextBox to be efficient enough to work for Word, that is obvioulsy not the case.

    This is exactly the point. If the Office team were forced to use it, imagine how great those controls would now be.

    But especially with the port of VisualStudio to WPF, Microsoft has been 'eating its own dogfood'.

    The Visual Studio team has done it, the Office and OS teams have not. That's unacceptable.

    Thursday, June 02, 2011 1:03 PM
  • @samw - if there was a way I could vote up your comments I would, it's an excellent assessment.

    SOMETHING PROACTIVE: Who in MS can we communicate our concerns with? Actual names. We desperately need an outlet, this can't brew for months. For MS's own good, that would really not be good. It's nice that we're all sounding off, but I want a Microsoft developer leader to be corned and questioned like the media do. Put the heat on. They need to know this is an emergency, and then be forced to answer if they are going to be heavily promoting WPF and Silverlight still as the richest way to go. Heavy promotion includes heavy PR support. We've been blind sided.

    BTW: One thing I am very thankful for is the direction of full Windows 8 on tablets, so WPF and the FULL .NET power can be on them. (Don't worry, I would accept in a minute all of that ported to Silverlight, but it's not there yet...). So that was itself great news. But the stuff samw said is the stickler, major businesses WILL NOT invest in .NET route if it looks like its frying. Many non-developer articles that have written on Win8 since yesterday are even questioning if Silverlight is dead then (even in the interview with Sinofsky, the non-developer asked if Silverlight has a place in this). Get the point? Anyone with sense would question if .NET is now the route to go. The answer needs to be: "OH YEAH, this other thing is exciting, but it could NEVER replace the power of what we've got going here, our framework of choice, with much to come."

    Thursday, June 02, 2011 1:13 PM
  • This post edited out by Pete because it was just insulting to our fellow developers. Just because you don't like a particular technology, you don't get the right to dump on the people who use it. This really hurts your case and the case of all the Silverlight developers.

    These folks are our peers. Keep it civil and respectful.

    Thursday, June 02, 2011 1:13 PM
  • I don't get what the big deal is honestly. The entire web is except those geocity type sites are built on HTML and JavaScript. Sites like Gmail, Facebook, and other high traffic sites are built on it. Microsoft is making the RIGHT move to move to a language most developers now understand. It's not like they are switching to D+ or Go.

    If the applications are actually built in this language we can get all kinds of developers. Nobody wants to learn .NET anymore. No one. .NET is old, boring, and no exciting work is being done on it. There is nothing wrong with .NET language and developers, but no one gives a *** about it anymore. It's by far not as sexy as JavaScript which has projects like Node, jQuery, HTML5, and other JS APIs and libraries that are becoming huge.

    Thursday, June 02, 2011 1:21 PM
  • You would not be surprised if sivlerlight was dropped altogether ?!? 

    I didn't say it was going to happen, but it wouldn't surprise me at all. They could just say, "OK, it's filled it's need. If you need DRM, use some other plugin." The only real partner they'd be screwing is Netflix.

    Silverlight RUNS IN HTML and just like you can build gadgets in silverlight I am sure you will be able to build these "apps" in silverlight

    Duh. By that same logic, Windows 8 can also run assembly code. Well of course it can run assembly. Big difference between that and FIRST CLASS SUPPORT.

    I'll see you at build and tell you "i told you so" there :-)

    Um, it's too bad that virtually no one from Microsoft is displaying the same confidence. The silence is deafening.

    I am also certain there will be a managed API available to us for updating our apps (similar to what windows 8 provides).

    Well that's a relief, Edward with no association with Microsoft is convinced. Is your certainty going to be enough for corporate IT decision makers? This isn't just about what happens but the present perception. You'd have to be a complete moron to propose a Silverlight solution these days. And I'm saying that as a 5000+ point contributor on this site.

    Thursday, June 02, 2011 1:22 PM
  • You realize that there are some of us that are already providing a tooling story for HTML/JS,

    [Another post edited out by Pete due to its very disrespectful nature]

    Thursday, June 02, 2011 1:30 PM
  • We have an uservoice request here:

    The top request for Silverlight 5 on uservoice was more platform support. Microsoft apparently interpreted that as "Drop Silverlight for HTML5"

    Thursday, June 02, 2011 1:32 PM
  • But html5 / js is a perfectly solid development platform.

    If you've never seen a car then a donkey is a perfectly solid means of transportation.

    Thursday, June 02, 2011 1:34 PM
  • and development time in a dynamic language like javascript is significantly faster.

    Ahahahahahahahahahha. Ahahahahahahahaha. Really? Ahahahahahahahahaha. When your toy language can do this...

    var q1 = from p in list1
    		join q in list2 on p.ID equals q.ID
    		join r in list3 on p.ID equals r.ID into leftjoin
    		from z in leftjoin.DefaultIfEmpty()
    		where p.SalesCount > 5
    		select new
    		{
    			SalesCount = p.SalesCount,
                            SomeThingElse = r.SomeThingElse,
                            JavaScriptIsAJoke = true
    		};

    gives us a call. Until then, you have no clue what you're talking about in regards to development time. Ahahahahahahha.

     

    Thursday, June 02, 2011 1:44 PM
  • var q1 = list1.filter(function(val) {
        return val.SalesCount > 5;
    }).map(function(val) {
        return {
            SalesCount: val.SalesCount,
            SomeThingElse: list3.get(val.id).SomeThingElse,
            JavaScriptIsAJoke: false
        }
    });


    That's reasonably expressive and readable. JavaScript is by no means a toy language and no sane developer would use js without any of the great supporting 3rd party libraries. Just like no sane C# developer would use C# without a framework like .NET

    As to your other remark it was a mere insult rather then anything discrediting js/html as a UI development platform.

    If your interested the above snippet uses http://documentcloud.github.com/backbone/ 

    Thursday, June 02, 2011 2:47 PM
  • But html5 / js is a perfectly solid development platform.

    If you've never seen a car then a donkey is a perfectly solid means of transportation.

     

    I like the car/donkey comparison.

    Thursday, June 02, 2011 2:54 PM
  • I have to throw in my support for Silverlight apps in the new Windows 8 Start. I have experience with HTML/JS and Silverlight and I much prefer Silverlight.

    I hope the announcements thus far are only the beginning and the Silverlight support will be announced, perhaps at Build Windows conference in September.

    Thursday, June 02, 2011 3:08 PM
  • Jack I’m sure everyone appreciates your passion but you are actually contributing to the problem rather than solving it.  This is not a TECHNICAL/LANGUAGE debate.  This is not an “Us versus Them” debate.


    The fact is that HTML/JS/JQuery/yada/yada are legitimate technologies and they are not going away.  Deal with it.


    Silverlight is ALSO (i.e. in addition to, along with, in conjunction, etc) a legitimate technology with a specific market and specific purpose.


    The problem is that Microsoft is FAILING to

    a.) give the product the credibility it desperately needs, 

    b.) POSITION the product correctly in the market by playing to its strengths,

    c.) MARKET the product correctly to customers who will benefit from its strengths.  


    Please don’t dilute and detract from these important objectives with useless comments about language syntax.  Someone from Microsoft marketing might read this thread.  I don’t think MS marketing people have a very long attention span.  Lets not tax them unnecessarily.

    Thursday, June 02, 2011 3:18 PM
  • var q1 = list1.filter(function(val) { return val.SalesCount > 5; }).map(function(val) { return { SalesCount: val.SalesCount, SomeThingElse: list3.get(val.id).SomeThingElse, JavaScriptIsAJoke: false } });

    hmm...what if I mistyped list3 as "lits3"?

    It's no problem for HTML/JS as a pure UI presentation layer, I actually like it. But to use it as a full-fledged development model for business applications, it's a different story. Other concerns include security, multithreading, etc....

    Thursday, June 02, 2011 3:25 PM
  • Your unit tests and peer reviewing catches little bugs like that. It officially crashes at run time when your integration testing. Your code analysis tools like jshint catches that. 

    There are plenty of advantages you gain when dropping strict typing and not having the compiler spell check your code is a minor loss.

    There are similar tools for security for js based applications are there are for .net. As for multithreading I wouldn't touch threads (Writing bug-free multi threaded code is hard). I would run multiple processes in parallel and scale across cores that way.  (Might want to look into async evented IO like node.js)

    But this completely distracts from the problem here. The problem is that SilverLight, WPF, html/js, and anything else should be first class citizens for windows 8. The fact we can do html/js is a (great) added bonus but we still need Silverlight support. 

    Thursday, June 02, 2011 3:37 PM
  • There are many advantages that donkeys possess over cars especially in this age of expensive fuel.

    Thursday, June 02, 2011 3:47 PM
  • My guess is that the people who made the decision to go HTML/JS are people who have no knowledge of programming languages.

    Thursday, June 02, 2011 3:51 PM
  • Another question is one of the things people do with tablets requires access to the hardware for sensors, cameras, etc.  So what is MS going to do? Build in hooks to IE10 to allow JavaScript access to the Camera, the GPS, Gyros, etc.

    Thursday, June 02, 2011 3:59 PM
  • based on what I heard from MIX presentations MS, Apple, Google and everyone else will create proprietary tags for advanced functionality which won't work on different browsers. So we'll be back to multiplatform mess.

    Thursday, June 02, 2011 4:05 PM
  • but i thing silverlight . do not have long run. like foxpro 

    Thursday, June 02, 2011 4:22 PM
  • For the "Nothing Changed" crowd, or the "Why are you guys so upset" crowd, here's the deal.

    I know that .Net will be supported on the server, I did Java when it was once considered a client technology, but later found it's true home on the server.  So if Microsoft wants to give up on .Net on the client, that's their right, and I'll live with that decision.

    The problem is that if you don't come out and tell your developer community where you're going, you've intentionally caused them to throw their money down a rat hole!

    This is a planned action, for whatever reason, it's an intentional misdirection to say one thing when you're doing something else.

    I don't care what direction this goes.  We'll do HTML, or whatever you stick with if the platform takes off, after all, we're businessmen, and looking to make a profit.

    However, we do need clear direction in the form of a business plan from Microsoft so that we can map our plans on top of it.

    That's all we're asking!  Tell us where you're going!  NOT by innuendo, but by clear focused comments that professionals can understand.

    Confusing your partners, developers, and in a lot of instances, your employees and customers, isn't a prescription for a harmonious ecosystem.

    Thursday, June 02, 2011 4:23 PM
  • Once you have native windows calls or custom tags, the whole point of reusability is lost.  

    I really think what happened is this:

    1.  They tried to build their tile interface with SL (or equivalent), and found that the performance was not what they wanted as far as responsiveness for the touch UI.

    2.  They realized they would have to rebuild the core FX Engine of WPF/SL to achieve their performance, or even rewrite alot of the OS from unmanaged to managed code.

    3.  The developers at MS proposed this to Ballmer, and told him it might take 1-2 years.

    4.  Ballmer said no f'ing way, we're getting our ass kicked in the tablet market.  We need something now.

    5.  The developers found a way to use the new hardware accelerated rendering engine in IE10 in the OS, and it provided the responsiveness they were looking for.

    6.  Decision was made that immersive apps will be HTML5 / JS


    In my opinion, the right decision would have been to work on the OS layer so that it plays better with .NET on performance.  .NET already has everything else under the sun a developer could want.  Then, there would be no immersive/legacy disparity.  There'd be one nice new UI for tablets / phones, and a clean story on how developers can get there from where they're at.  

    Now, they've caused a mess.  Developers are confused, being given no guidance on where to place their bets.  The mobile phone / tablet story has just taken a very confusing turn as well... are they really persuing 2 entirely different OS and development platforms for a tablet vs. a phone?

    Thursday, June 02, 2011 4:24 PM
  • Your unit tests and peer reviewing catches little bugs like that. It officially crashes at run time when your integration testing. Your code analysis tools like jshint catches that. 

    There are plenty of advantages you gain when dropping strict typing and not having the compiler spell check your code is a minor loss.

    There are similar tools for security for js based applications are there are for .net. As for multithreading I wouldn't touch threads (Writing bug-free multi threaded code is hard). I would run multiple processes in parallel and scale across cores that way.  (Might want to look into async evented IO like node.js)

    But this completely distracts from the problem here. The problem is that SilverLight, WPF, html/js, and anything else should be first class citizens for windows 8. The fact we can do html/js is a (great) added bonus but we still need Silverlight support. 

    Please stop trying to defend Javascript.  Ok, it's not terrible, but it isn't a language you really want to run your enterprise.

    Look, I can pretend to be a magician, but that doesn't mean I can really make stuff vanish.  Javascript is a pretender, even though it's very useful!

    Thursday, June 02, 2011 4:28 PM
  • I doubt it has anything to do with performance. SL has excellent performance and anyways it will probably take longer to create a performant HTML/JS infrastructure than improve SL/WPF.

    Thursday, June 02, 2011 4:28 PM
  • Another question is one of the things people do with tablets requires access to the hardware for sensors, cameras, etc.  So what is MS going to do? Build in hooks to IE10 to allow JavaScript access to the Camera, the GPS, Gyros, etc.

    I'd assume that the desktop applications you can develop in html/js are completely unrelated to IE10. I'd assume that win8 exposes a new javascript API to access all the native good-ness.

    but it isn't a language you really want to run your enterprise.

    I completely agree. It's fine for the UI layer but let's hope that were not expected to write complete applications in it. You need something more stable behind it. They can't reimplement a strong database with html/js so they must have something heavy behind it.

    Thursday, June 02, 2011 4:33 PM
  • BTW, if you haven't already read Scott Barnes take on the Windows 8 Preview, I urge you to take a look!

    Thursday, June 02, 2011 4:40 PM
  • Your unit tests and peer reviewing catches little bugs like that. It officially crashes at run time when your integration testing. Your code analysis tools like jshint catches that. 

    There are plenty of advantages you gain when dropping strict typing and not having the compiler spell check your code is a minor loss.

    There are similar tools for security for js based applications are there are for .net. As for multithreading I wouldn't touch threads (Writing bug-free multi threaded code is hard). I would run multiple processes in parallel and scale across cores that way.  (Might want to look into async evented IO like node.js)

    But this completely distracts from the problem here. The problem is that SilverLight, WPF, html/js, and anything else should be first class citizens for windows 8. The fact we can do html/js is a (great) added bonus but we still need Silverlight support. 


    Very informative. I still think (today's) JavaScript has inherent shortcomeings, but it's another topic then...

    As for the last paragraph, that's exactly where the problem comes. Microsoft only declared HTML5/JS as first class citizen and said nothing about XAML while they know that's many people want to hear of...or maybe they don't know or they just don't care at all?




    Thursday, June 02, 2011 4:48 PM
  • For the "Nothing Changed" crowd, or the "Why are you guys so upset" crowd, here's the deal.

    I know that .Net will be supported on the server, I did Java when it was once considered a client technology, but later found it's true home on the server.  So if Microsoft wants to give up on .Net on the client, that's their right, and I'll live with that decision.

    The problem is that if you don't come out and tell your developer community where you're going, you've intentionally caused them to throw their money down a rat hole!

    This is a planned action, for whatever reason, it's an intentional misdirection to say one thing when you're doing something else.

    I don't care what direction this goes.  We'll do HTML, or whatever you stick with if the platform takes off, after all, we're businessmen, and looking to make a profit.

    However, we do need clear direction in the form of a business plan from Microsoft so that we can map our plans on top of it.

    That's all we're asking!  Tell us where you're going!  NOT by innuendo, but by clear focused comments that professionals can understand.

    Confusing your partners, developers, and in a lot of instances, your employees and customers, isn't a prescription for a harmonious ecosystem.


    exactly, right to the point.

    Thursday, June 02, 2011 4:52 PM
  • The video was interesting ... ! mixed thoughts. That "mozaic" view is pretty cool, and less gimmicky than the vista aero alt-tab switcher.... great for tablets.

    Makes me wonder though as a power user how often you would be in mozaic view? I am all about keyboard shortcuts for productivity, how well will mozaic view lend itself to that? Swiping your finger around can be tiring and non-productive if you were doing that all day.

    Seems more for photos / facebook / weather that sort of thing, not for spreadsheets, financial accounts or some other data intensive type program. Still though, I would welcome that mozaic view for when I need to chill out - like taking out my iPad for some pleasant media consumption... but I don't think I would be in there all the time. It depends how integrated it is with everything else.

    As for the whole HTML5 vs Silverlight argument... I am in the camp that it is blown out of proportion. All those things he was showing were little pretty widgets, there is no way you would write a trading application in HTML5 and javascript - and even if you could, I believe the productivity benefits from WPF for business applications is superior. There is always going to be native client apps - as someone said before in this thread, smart phones and tablets have pushed thick client development back in.

    Also, my bet is that you'd be able to create one of those tiles in wpf or silverlight. I interpreted the video that being able to create those tiles natively in HTML5 is now an option, and I think that's cool. Maybe the tile views will need to be done in HTML5 or something, but not all the applications that they expand to. Think about it, the web browser existed as one of those tiles in the mozaic - do you think the web browser was created in HTML5? :)

    That video was all about new and to catch attention - I don't think it was the place to talk about old boring backwards compatible technologies even though he did touch on it (i.e still using MS Office etc outside of Mozaic).

    Thursday, June 02, 2011 4:54 PM
  • Also, my bet is that you'd be able to create one of those tiles in wpf or silverlight. I interpreted the video that being able to create those tiles natively in HTML5 is now an option, and I think that's cool. Maybe the tile views will need to be done in HTML5 or something, but not all the applications that they expand to. Think about it, the web browser existed as one of those tiles in the mozaic - do you think the web browser was created in HTML5? :)

    Very good post, and you're likely on to something.  Microsoft may be responding to what we want at this new conference that will supercede PDC(http://www.buildwindows.com/). 

    There's a lot of conflicting things going on, but others have postulated that the way they're running Windows 7 apps is through Virtualization, similar to the way you can run Windows XP apps on Windows 7.  The new apps would be built using HTML5 and JS, but it's not exactly the normal browser, it's a modified browser that has OS hooks.

    Some folks say this is wrong, however, you can get away with this on phones and tablets, and it does provide enterprises with a wealth of developers capable of building apps quickly, not to mention the consumer focused guys that want to build "Fart Apps".

    So where does that leave us?  Well, Mary Jo Foley postulates this,

    "Build supersedes the Microsoft Professional Developers Conference (PDC), Microsoft’s near-annual gathering of developers interested in the company’s developer tools and platform futures. Like other Microsoft watchers, I’m expecting Microsoft to deliver a test build of Windows 8, as well as a possible test build of Visual Studio 2012, in conjunction with the conference. And maybe Microsoft will finally raise the curtain on “Jupiter,” its new XAML-based app model for Windows 8 there, too…."

    We'll have to wait to see where this all goes, but it's crazy to to a demo and leave so many questions lingering.

    Thursday, June 02, 2011 5:55 PM
  • The fact is that HTML/JS/JQuery/yada/yada are legitimate technologies and they are not going away. 

    As were donkies legitimate modes of transportation. WordPerfect was a legitimate technology. Netware was a legitimate technology. Microsoft gave its customers the option of not using those technologies. When Microsoft was leveraging its way into the browser market, it added tons of properties and methods to the HTML DOM that provided HUGE value. Otherwise there was absolutely no reason to use IE. .NET and Silverlight was a continuation of that tradition. Now because of some brain dead monkies running the show, they're catering to the ABM/Richard Stallman crowd. Where is the value add?

    Deal with it.

    Don't have to, haven't for YEARS. If my option is work with POS5, I'll just change focus to Android or iPhone. If Microsoft is telling me I have to work with ***, I might as work with *** with a larger market share, i.e. iPhone or Droid. The only reason that I've targetted Windows 7 phone is that the development environment isn't ***. That's the value add that Microsoft is now pissing away. Brilliant.

    Silverlight is ALSO (i.e. in addition to, along with, in conjunction, etc) a legitimate technology with a specific market and specific purpose.

    If you see Silverlight purely as a "use it for what you can't do in HTML" well surprise to you, that's DRM video now. Silverlight is more than what you can do, but HOW you do it. That's why I could give a *** about HTML toolkits. It's the how, not the what. You think Microsoft is going to keep investing in Silverlight if its only purpose is DRM video?

    Someone from Microsoft marketing might read this thread.

    I didn't know Microsoft had a marketing department. Which wing in Woodland Park can I find them in?

    Thursday, June 02, 2011 5:59 PM
  • [Edited out more disrespect - Pete]

    Thursday, June 02, 2011 6:11 PM
  • 2.  They realized they would have to rebuild the core FX Engine of WPF/SL to achieve their performance, or even rewrite alot of the OS from unmanaged to managed code.

     

    You really telling me tehy couldn't solve a problem on a fully fledged PC they already solved on smart phone devices? I don't think so.

    The real question is, why is IE10 not executing XAP's natively. No need for a plugin on Windows and fully accelerated and  integrated into the OS. That would be a nice SL story. But right now it sounds more like they going to rename Silverlight to Silverdusk.

    Thursday, June 02, 2011 6:13 PM
  • >>As were donkies legitimate modes of transportation. WordPerfect was a legitimate technology. Netware was a legitimate technology.
    Oh stop your bawling. We still have donkies, we now have google docs, we now use tcip/ip what happened to ms network client (can't remember the name).  MS used to be able to simply crush its competitors just by throwing out some new product.  Those days are gone.  They need offer better products AND MARKET THEM WELL.


    >>If Microsoft is telling me I have to work with ***, I might as work with *** with a larger market share, i.e. iPhone or Droid.

    Yep.  Every developer who reads this thread needs to take that same approach.  



    >>If you see Silverlight purely as a "use it for what you can't do in HTML" well surprise to you

    No!  Not at all!  The problem is that many people do see it that way.  As I said before MS needs to position this product and play to its strengths and sell it to people who will understand it.  It's not JUST an alternative to HTML, or a substitute.  It's a whole different architecture.  Ask any pundit who has engaged in the  "HTML5 vs. Silverlight war" and they will not be able to tell you this (or they know but are deliberately being deceptive).

    Thursday, June 02, 2011 6:28 PM
  • What disappoints me the most is the timing - just a week ago Silverlight seemed to be the perfect choice for new development - with Mango finally bringing it to a decent level on Windows Phone and all the rumours that it will be THE thing for Windows 8. And now...

    Thursday, June 02, 2011 6:40 PM
  • Alright people. I've never had to edit posts before, but I just edited a bunch. I've watched this thread since yesterday, and finally felt I needed to do some editing for language and to remove insults. I didn't edit out comments about Microosoft, just posts that insulted other developers.

    I don't want to close this thread. I don't want to ban people. Keep the discussion civil and on-topic. There will be no bashing of languages, technologies, or most importantly, other developers on this forum. Consider this fair warning.

    The people who have posted rude comments about HTML and HTML developers have hurt Silverlight's case in the community. Seriously. You've done damage. Stop it.

    As to everything else: You all saw a very small technology demo of Windows 8, and a brief press release. We're all being quiet right now because we can't comment on this. It's not because we don't care, aren't listening, have given up, or are agreeing or disagreeing with you on something. All I can say for now is to please wait until September. If we say more before then, that will be great, but there are no promises (and I'm not aware of any plans) to say more right now. I'm very sorry that there's nothing else to share at the moment. I know that answer is terrible, but it's all that we can say right now. Seriously.

    This radio silence is normal mode of operation for many companies 365 days of the year. Unfortunately, since we're so open with plans, since we share so much, and since we have such a solid history of helping and listening to our developer community, it's extra obvious when we're being quiet.

    [rock]Pete[hardPlace]

    Thursday, June 02, 2011 6:44 PM
  • Wouldn't integrating IE that closely with the operating system again cause some antitrust concerns? Oh well, I am sure Microsoft lawyers have that one covered :). I know I wouldn't want IE that integrated with my OS, unless IE 10 is going to be a lot more stable than the current IE. But a browser has in the end a different purpose than an OS. Your OS is much more trusted, while your browser has to assume completely untrusted code by default. But I am sure Microsoft knows their stuff on this one and will be able to run all this smoothly.

    I have developed web based applications long enough to absolutely dislike HTML+Javascript. The ability to build front-end + back-end in one programming language (same skillset) is awesome. And don't tell me that we have to use Javascript on the back-end as well (classic ASP was not that great!). And even with HTML5 I still think it's completely unsuited for writing large applications. Surely Microsoft would not abandon it's native application stack? Apple didn't drop Objective C yet, did they? If Microsoft does drop all native development down the drain, life will go on (but hopefully not as an HTML5+Javascript only developer).

    Thursday, June 02, 2011 6:52 PM
  • mmh,  to promote HTML5 for Windows 8 now and nothing about SL or .NET til September is also a message. Very sad one!

    But I agree, it's not about bashing HTML/JS, it's about the future of the best App framework ever. THis thread is not ment to be a flame war against HTML/JS. Time to calm down. Cool

    Thursday, June 02, 2011 6:55 PM
  • I don't think that MS will drop .NET within the next 10 years. But who want his App to be recognized as an "classic mode app". Sounds pathetic. 

    Thursday, June 02, 2011 6:58 PM
  • All I can say for now is to please wait until September.

    Great, so we will be treated to the summer of speculation and bashing of Silverlight by haters - the amount of people on Twitter today cheering the "death of Silverlight" (and new reign of HTML5) was frankly depressing.

    Thursday, June 02, 2011 7:14 PM
  • I just site here and must think what do the developers of the 20,000 apps in the Windows Phone Marketplace must be thinking.  MS just put out the Windows Phone Mango tools which are all about XNA/Silverlight and really support building enterprise Mobile apps. They must have been thinking before that MS would certainly make it easy for them to take those apps to Windows 8 based tablets just like Apple and Google do with iOS and Android.  What are they thinking now?  What about the application frameworks that have been developed to quickly take advantage of Metro. 

    Myself I try to develop apps that utilize business objects bound to UI so I can quickly change UI or have multiple UI bound to the same business objects and also use those same business objects on the server.  I live with JavaScript on HTML based clients because I have no other choice. Do I like to have duplication of logic? No. Does it lead to additional maintenance costs? Yes.  So if I am going to build an Tablet based application for Windows 8 that lives in a sometimes connected world why in the world would I ever choose HTML5 and JavaScript. I just dont understand it what benefit does it give me?

    Thursday, June 02, 2011 7:19 PM
  • Insulting people is wrong indeed, but it is impossible to insult technologies. To state my opinion that HTML and JavaScript are not suitable at all for business development and that people at MS who favor them over Silverlight/WPF do not have a clue about the developer's needs is my duty.

    Thursday, June 02, 2011 7:22 PM
  • If Jupiter is indeed a big surprise ahead, that announcement of "HTML5/JS" alone is really misleading and disturbing.

    I am not a businessman, I cannot see what benefits Microsoft will gain by doing this.

    Thursday, June 02, 2011 7:23 PM
  • As for waiting until September.  MS did not have to specify what the development environment/tooling would be yesterday. If they had mentioned nothing people would have simply assumed a mix of what MS currently supports.  It was foolish to announce it yesterday only partly.  Like I said before Windows Phone developers are now thinking that MS has really increased the development costs for thier apps to run in Windows 8.

    Thursday, June 02, 2011 7:28 PM
  • And BTW I interpret the "rock" and "hard place" in your message as the developer community and your own understanding of this matter vs. some 'geniuses' at MS who never saw any developer, but nevertheless had the power to move the whole platform towards HTML/JS.

    Thursday, June 02, 2011 7:30 PM
  • While we hope for Jupiter we should just remember that "Jupiter" wasn't the luckiest project in the past of Microsoft.  Microsoft scrubs Jupiter project #justsaying

     

    Thursday, June 02, 2011 7:31 PM
  • Javascript may be the WORST language ever used to write "applications".  It's a joke.    You end up wasting a billion hours of your time dealing with the POS language you are using instead of doing actual development work.  And before anyone accuses me of not having worked in it, I have written major web apps in both javascript and silverlight.  There is no comparison.  You could have done what we did in javascript in a about 1/5th of the time in Silverlight and it would have been 5 times better.

    I'm not insulting Javascript developers.  Their job is unbelievably hard because of the crappy language they had to deal with, so they should be commended when they get something to work, because they probably spend a crapload of time on it.

    There better be stuff we have not heard about yet, because otherwise this is a disaster.

    Thursday, June 02, 2011 7:41 PM
  • Javascript may be the WORST language ever used to write "applications".  It's a joke.   It's a toy language that takes 20 times longer to do any real development in.  So you end up wasting a billion hours of your time dealing with the POS language you are using instead of doing actual development work.  And before anyone accuses me of not having worked in it, I have written major web apps in both javascript and silverlight.  There is no comparison.  You could have done what we did in javascript in a about 1/5th of the time in Silverlight and it would have been 5 times better.

    If this is the future of Microsoft development, count me out.   I don't care if this is "one way" to do things, but if it is the "only way" it is a disaster.



    It's funny you say that. I've found the opposite. Cranking out applications in JS is fast and a joy to do. I do have to admit that if you don't program into JavaScript and have good team leadership it can quickly become a mess.

    Mind you, you can't beat the flexibility of SilverLight as it can run any .NET language (even IronRuby if you wanted to!) 

    Thursday, June 02, 2011 7:55 PM
  • I've spent the last 8 months writing a .NET class library specifically targeting scientific/technical imaging applications for WPF. I was looking forward to migrating a version of my SDK to the tablet UI for medical viewers. My jaw hit the floor when I heard about this. I'd rather not have to wait 3 months to make an informed decision as to how I should proceed.

    Everytime someone complained about applications not running on the ARM version of Win8, my response was the same: ever heard of something called the .NET Framework? I have to say I didn't see this coming. Not in a hundred years. I'm stunned at this development.

    Thursday, June 02, 2011 7:57 PM
  • BTW note that I edited my original post because I didn't want to insult people who work in it.

    Javascript is fine if you are doing something very simple.  If you are doing something even moderately complex, it breaks down disasterously compared to C++, C#, or even Pascal.   Plus the development tools are stone age.  It's like being transported back to development in 1985.

     

    Thursday, June 02, 2011 7:58 PM
  • BTW note that I edited my original post because I didn't want to insult people who work in it.

    Javascript is fine if you are doing something very simple.  If you are doing something even moderately complex, it breaks down disasterously compared to C++, C#, or even Pascal.   Plus the development tools are stone age.  It's like being transported back to development in 1985.

     




    It really depends. Unix is my IDE. Yes people were using unix in 1985, but really it's not worse, it's just a completely different attitude to programming then using VS (and both are valid for html/JS. Using unix for .NET is ridiculious). I have to say some parts of JS are a pain. The main problems have been browser propietory extensions and the DOM. These days there are many libraries to make the pain dissapear and modern browsers all work very nicely!

    However if your not using libraries and frameworks to structure and mold JavaScript then it's a horrible situation. I would also recommend giving WebStorm a try for html/js development when you need to. It's the most solid IDE I've found for the sector.

    Thursday, June 02, 2011 8:14 PM
  • So which framework are you supposed to invest all your time in?  First my company was going to invest in YUI (Yahoo) so we all learned that.  Oops, then jQuery came along so everything we learned in YUI was a complete waste of time and we had to learn a completely new way of doing things in jQuery.  Oops, what is next?

    Even then, my complaint isn't really with any of the frameworks themselves, as any system needs a framework around it.  Even programming straight Windows API was using a framework as such.  My problem is directly with the langauge.  It's horrible.   Typeless, uncompiled, ugly/unreadable standard formatting, untrackable runtime errors galore, simple typos can take hours to track down, it's just a terrible TERRIBLE development language for anything complex.  And I wrote some rather complex stuff in it.  It's like a really REALLY bad version of VB3-6, but without the awesome IDE that came with VB.   I'd honestly rather stick a hot poker in my eye repeatedly than ever use javascript for anything application-worthy again. 

    All of the cross-browser madness is just a function of all the browsers.  HTML & CSS are inconsistent cross-browser too.

    Thursday, June 02, 2011 8:25 PM
  • Maybe Microsoft only considers the new UI worthy of small toy-like apps. I myself was looking forward to applying the new interface to something a little more useful than launching a JavaScripted fart app.

    At the risk of getting moderated, I say it sounds like one of the suits at Microsoft thought this idea up while sitting on the crapper. It sure sounds like a crappy idea to me.

    Thursday, June 02, 2011 8:34 PM
  • Anybody remember Visual Studio LightSwitch?

    Is that sucker toast as well?

    I don't think Microsoft is going to trash all these investments in Silverlight overnight.

    Hopefully, the major development tools and apps will play well on Windows 8, and may the best stuff win.

    However, if HTML/JS is used as a "Glue" language, ala, the new Visual Basic of the past, I think it's a GREAT move.

    BTW, if you've seen the development tools for a lot of the phone platforms, you'll notice that they achieve cross platform support through a combination of HTML5 and native access.

    MS, with this announcement, has made it easy for those guys to rope in all of the iOS and Android developers for somewhere between 80-90% of the apps.

    While we should be upset about the way this is being handled, we also must realize that the business climate is forcing a different behavior on Microsoft.

    At this point, I'm willing to give Microsoft the benefit of the doubt, because i have to say, this is one SWEET OS, and I'm dying to get my hands on it.

    I smell a BIG success coming!

    Thursday, June 02, 2011 8:54 PM
  • Isn't it ironic that the truly successful companies in the mobile space chose not to use HTML/CSS. Note that the Apple IPhone/Ipad uses a variant of C++(objective-C) and Android uses almose standard Java, both conventional compile and link languages. These companies do not suffer from a lack of development interest or applications. It is not obvious to me that MS is smarter that those guys. In my experience maintainablility, flexibility and reliability are far more important software traits than ease of development.

    Thursday, June 02, 2011 9:04 PM
  • Just watched the video from the COMUTEX and I can't see how we overreact. He clearly says "Windows 8's new Application Platform or Apps we call tailored Apps. This Application Platform ist based on html5, js and CSS. The most widely understood programming languanges of all times." OMG

    Even Flash got mentioned.

    Thursday, June 02, 2011 9:30 PM
  • Isn't it ironic that the truly successful companies in the mobile space chose not to use HTML/CSS. Note that the Apple IPhone/Ipad uses a variant of C++(objective-C) and Android uses almose standard Java, both conventional compile and link languages. These companies do not suffer from a lack of development interest or applications. It is not obvious to me that MS is smarter that those guys. In my experience maintainablility, flexibility and reliability are far more important software traits than ease of development.

     

    Yes, and while neither Objective-C or Java are my favorite languages, using either is infinitely better than trying to use Javascript to do something real.

    Thursday, June 02, 2011 9:31 PM
  • Jamie, that's what I'm saying...maybe the "deciders" at Microsoft don't expect anyone to do anything real with the tablet UI. Just poke at disctracting software apps. I dunno, this is an awful development.

    Thursday, June 02, 2011 9:38 PM
  • Microsodft would hopefully never be so naive as to drop native application support. I hope it is just their marketing department trying to attract HTML5 buzz. And ofcourse, Microsoft has always had a weakspot for the 'everyone can program' paradigm. Visual Basic was positioned that way. I switched from C++ to C# and I can switch again if ever needed. .NET is great, but there will be a day when it is replaced. Once that day comes, all my skills will easily transfer to whatever new environment is out there. But Microsoft has a big stake in LOB applications (both with server OS and client OS) and they would not risk breaking that quickly. WInForms is still supported even though WPF has been out there for a while :) . So right now I am just taking this as MS catering to the HTML5 wave. If I turn out to be wrong, I'll consider again what the best architectures are going forward. Java is not that far removed from .NET. Wiith Oracle having a strong hold on many enterprise applications [like for example PeopleSoft], Microsoft knows that .NET is a very crucial platform for them in the business environment (because I still think .NET beats Java in many aspects).

    Thursday, June 02, 2011 9:44 PM
  • The HTML/CSS/Javascript programming "model" is an ACCIDENT.  HTML was never intended to be used the way it currently is.  It was designed for static pages of information.  Then people got tired of having to type the same style information into every HTML tag, so they abstracted it away with CSS.  Fine.  Then people got tired of the fact that HTML couldn't be changed once it went to the client, so they tacked on clunky javascript into the browser so that you could do client-side processing.

    The entire platform is a hack to get around the fact that HTML was never designed to be a programming language or to be interactive.  It was just a simple way for people to put up info on web.  It was never designed to be an application platform.

    The idea that Microsoft would turn to this hack as their main application platform is just mind-boggling. 

    Thursday, June 02, 2011 9:47 PM
  • The entire platform is a hack to get around the fact that HTML was never designed to be a programming language or to be interactive.

    Couldn't agree more. Do we still remember what the T stands for in HTML and what the A stands for in XAML.

    Thursday, June 02, 2011 10:09 PM
  • There's a reason neither Apple nor Google implementing their flagship mobile platform in Javascript despite talking loudly about H5 support. Here's the obvious reason in case some JS pumpers carrying too big an ego to figure it out: H5/JS/CSS is simply too inadequate to be considered as a viable option. So they stick to Objective-C and Java respectively and WISELY. In the case of Google the contrast is such that they cannot even get the ChromeOS netbook - their H5 showcase - out of the door while Android is flying high in the sky.

    Now I'm just flabbergasted to see Microsoft becoming the last fool still left on the H5/JS bandwagon dishing out the koolaids while the previous two weasels have gone hiding. Hello!! The H5/JS emperor is naked. Anyone paying attention in the MSFT camp??

    Thursday, June 02, 2011 10:31 PM
  • The development story around silverlight is still pretty bad unfortunately. This is the sad truth. With HTML, you can hit F5 and review your changes. Silverlight is like windows desktop development.

    The tooling has to radically improve. 

    For instance, MEF is starting to be necessary because of the download sizes. The solution? the equivalent of one DLL project per screen. It gets crazy very quickly.

    We need more MS devs in the Silverlight team who have come from a web background to understand what the technology is up against. HTML may be clunky but it deserves respect as an able competitor.

    Thursday, June 02, 2011 11:29 PM
  • Pete,

    Why are you guys doing this?

    Why are you sending such mixed messages every few weeks and casting more doubts about the platform and putting Silverlight developers livelihood on the line? I find it hard to believe that a company who has enjoyed a tremendous growth because of their developer community and chanted developers, developers, developers is now hurting them with their demos and press releases. After the PDC last year, the outcry of the Silverlight community was loud and clear. You guys countered it with an all day Silverlight event and messages from the top about the strategic importance of Silverlight on the Windows platform. Then at MIX, we had to watch an hour of stupid and meaningless demos about IE's performance over other browsers and the HTML 5 adoption + trashing of browser plugins with Silverlight being completely absent. And now, when you are showing Windows 8 for the first time ever, you've decided to praise HTML/JS as one of its selling points to the developers and all you said about Silverlight is that it will run in the browser. And the result is more than 1.7 million views of this thread with a clear message from the Silverlight community!

    Why are you guys doing this? Especially when you consider your target audience. You told us to leave the comfort zone of programming with WinForms/WebForms and adopt Silverlight. And we did it. It was a paradigm shift with a lot of frustration and scars to show prove it, but we did it. Then you asked us to use those skills and help you populate the WP7 marketplace with apps. We did that, too. Despite being so late to the market, we have helped you populate it with apps faster than any other platform. And after all this you reward us with mixed messages and silence until September. 

    Thank you very much



    Thursday, June 02, 2011 11:53 PM
  • Take one giant step forward with Silverlight, and now... back to the stone age with HTML/JS.  Simply inexplicable.

    Thursday, June 02, 2011 11:54 PM
  • The development story around silverlight is still pretty bad unfortunately. This is the sad truth. With HTML, you can hit F5 and review your changes. Silverlight is like windows desktop development.

    Yes, with Silverlight you do have to build (probably takes between 5-15 seconds on a good dev box depending on the complexity of the app) before you can hit F5 and review your changes.  Is that really that big of a hassle?   I bet you save WAY more than 5-15 seconds the first time the build catches a typo that you'd have to wait and hit as a runtime error in Javascript. 

    If your complaint is tooling, geez,  most HTML/Javascript tooling is stone-age compared to .NET/Visual Studio.   And that doesn't even get into the joys of Javascript debugging.

     

    Friday, June 03, 2011 12:11 AM
  • Pete,

    Why are you guys doing this?

    Why are you sending such mixed messages every few weeks and casting more doubts about the platform and putting Silverlight developers livelihood on the line? I find it hard to believe that a company who has enjoyed a tremendous growth because of their developer community and chanted developers, developers, developers is now hurting them with their demos and press releases. After the PDC last year, the outcry of the Silverlight community was loud and clear. You guys countered it with an all day Silverlight event and messages from the top about the strategic importance of Silverlight on the Windows platform. Then at MIX, we had to watch an hour of stupid and meaningless demos about IE's performance over other browsers and the HTML 5 adoption + trashing of browser plugins with Silverlight being completely absent. And now, when you are showing Windows 8 for the first time ever, you've decided to praise HTML/JS as one of its selling points to the developers and all you said about Silverlight is that it will run in the browser. And the result is more than 1.7 million views of this thread with a clear message from the Silverlight community!

    Why are you guys doing this? Especially when you consider your target audience. You told us to leave the comfort zone of programming with WinForms/WebForms and adopt Silverlight. And we did it. It was a paradigm shift with a lot of frustration and scars to show prove it, but we did it. Then you asked us to use those skills and help you populate the WP7 marketplace with apps. We did that, too. Despite being so late to the market, we have helped you populate it with apps faster than any other platform. And after all this you reward us with mixed messages and silence until September.

     

    Thanks for posting this. I agree on everything you said. The rumor about Windows/Office and Servers/Tools teams in Microsoft must be true. And how Windows team sees WPF and Silverlight (WPF/Everywhere) as a toy. Windows/Office teams win the war (they made most money). Besides VS2010, is there another important application that Microsoft wrote in WPF?

    If Pete does not even has anything to say about it, I think future or Silverlight and XAML-based development does not look bright at all.

    Anyway, life goes on. I still beleive in XAML-based model. I will move on and wait patiently until September then re-think about it again.

    Friday, June 03, 2011 12:56 AM
  • I work as a contractor and time is money for me. For enterprise developers, that time doesn't matter as much.

    Friday, June 03, 2011 12:58 AM
  • Guys, I've been pretty clear that my hands are tied here, so don't read anything more into my lack of comments than that. We simply aren't allowed to say anything about this. It's not that we have nothing to say. It's not that we don't care. It's not that I personally don't care, because I do, a lot.

    I know that in the big picture that's pretty meaningless, but it's all I have at the moment.

    Pete

    Friday, June 03, 2011 1:08 AM
  • Guys, I've been pretty clear that my hands are tied here, so don't read anything more into my lack of comments than that. We simply aren't allowed to say anything about this. It's not that we have nothing to say. It's not that we don't care. It's not that I personally don't care, because I do, a lot.

    Pete

    Thanks, Pete. I think I misunderstood your post a little bit. Since the first "Silverlight is dead" post by Mary Jo's, I think many Silverlight developers (including me) are very sensitive about this kind of stuff, LOL It's been a long day since Windows 8 preview. Let's move on! :-)
    Friday, June 03, 2011 1:16 AM
  • We need more MS devs in the Silverlight team who have come from a web background to understand what the technology is up against.

    This is what I have been saying for a while, but every time I dare suggest that silverlight.net should make greater usage of Silverlight you should see the responses. On a related note, has anyone ever seen what a Silverlight page looks like when the XAP has been blocked by a firewall? It's pretty lame. Has Microsoft done ANYTHING about it? Nope. Not even a HINT of what's gone wrong.

    Friday, June 03, 2011 1:30 AM
  • @Svart


    No one believes HTML5 is ready yet, but that doesn't mean it isn't implemented yet. The last call for the spec is about to start (or for all I know, already started), then it's going to HTML.next.


    What's that you're saying, JS isn't the answer for a line of business app?

    Guess which language Google Docs, which IMO is far superior to Office, is written with? The answer doesn't have .NET in it.

    1. Local Storage, check: File API, LocalStorage API, SessionStorage API

    2. Rich networking, check, and try out NodeJS.

    3. Treading, check, Web Workers API


    If we want to go beyond that, there's

    4. 3D, check, WebGL.

    5. DSP, check, (Web) Audio (Data) API.

    6. Device Access / Manipulation, check, DAP or the Device Access API.

    7. You name it, it's there / will be there, check, and MS for one is going to make sure of that.


    I'm hoping the people here had the patience / courtesy to find out about things before mocking HTML / JS, IMO JS is a much better (not easier, better) language than C#, after all I hope you guys knew that multiple languages is what you are going to get when you sign up for programming.


    @eclipsoft Beauty, really? If you'd ever looked at what C# translates to or what kind of source code ASP.NET generates, you'd be quick to drop the beauty word, ever wondered why your .NET server is so slow compared to other sites? Yeah, because the contents of a single HTML page are bigger traffic than a few hours of Twitter use. Good for the service providers though.


    HTML5 / JavaScript is what all OSes are planning to move to, Microsoft taking the first step is just good for them, attracts lots of new developers. And I don't see why you are so worried, it's not like they're getting rid of SL / .NET, quite the contrary, they've made them their first class citizens in HTML, and HTML is the first class citizen of W8.


    And as for browser inconsistencies, if it's gonna be just IE10, how would there be any browser inconsistencies, other than internal? And for most of the inconsistencies, MS along with others are trying to file them off, currently the biggest inconsistency is the IE6, which was a good browser back in the day. Instead of ranting here, you could be doing yourself a favor, and convincing your friends to upgrade to a modern browser. (NOT IE8)


    And as comes to inconsistencies in general, ever tried porting your windows app to other OSes? Yeah. Ever tried porting your HTML5 app to other OSes? Oh, you didn't have to change it a bit, oh dear god!


    And besides, even if they were getting rid of SL & .NET, I wouldn't blame them, if the Dev community is this easy to give up on them.


    Good luck to you all in your efforts.

    Friday, June 03, 2011 1:45 AM
  • Guess which language Google Docs, which IMO is far superior to Office, is written with? The answer doesn't have .NET in it.

    So I don't get it trouble, thank you for your input. To the folks at Microsoft, have you noticed that the only people who are happy about your new found love of HTML absolutely despise you and will NEVER buy your products? And the people who aren't so happy, are your customers?

    Also, articles like this will just keep on happening until you actually add value with your browser...

    http://www.zdnet.com/blog/networking/browser-wars-chrome-winning-ie-losing/1119?tag=mantle_skin;content

    Just to be clear, obsessing about standards doesn't add value. Quite the opposite actually. For a little perspective, was IE6 standards compliant?

    Friday, June 03, 2011 2:15 AM
  • Guess which language Google Docs, which IMO is far superior to Office, is written with? The answer doesn't have .NET in it.

    LOL. 


    Ok, this is my small side-project app in written in silverlight  (3 people on part time, less than year of work)

    Let's compare it with google drawings, created by google (corp with almost unlimited resources!)  on html5.


    Friday, June 03, 2011 2:16 AM
  • BTW, if you haven't already read Scott Barnes take on the Windows 8 Preview, I urge you to take a look!

    Actually, it is utterly depressing. Because it looks true. Now I see everything I've felt for at least half a year, the ZERO activity on my beloved WPF, was already going on back then. I was really trying to believe Pete's "Future of WPF" article too. Only encouragment I got was: a) at least Pete kept responding there, one tinsy tiny sign of life from someone on the other end of the line, and b) the major changes of moving VStudio up to WPF. Now I am suspicious on even this. Many decisions could already have been in place that were finally irreversible about moving VS to WPF, and the matching work needed for WPF text. Point is, just as VS10 was reaching its climax, these other negative changes contra .NET, WPF, etc, could have been coming to fruition.

    I'm so depressed. Barnes was right on many things there. If WPF is left with just a skeleton crew, then it does look abandoned. I know of some bugs in VStudio (08 and 10, but only 10 actually totally crashes VS) that I solved in making a very advanced data-virtualizing control (generic method overriding base control method flips out VStudio XAML viewer, its totally just a bug, but a critical one). I figured by VS12, it would be fixed. But hey, how could it if they aren't developing it anymore?

    BTW, what the heck to they expect us to do, no more Rich applications on the client?

    Friday, June 03, 2011 2:49 AM
  • Ok, this is my small side-project app in written in silverlight  (3 people on part time, less than year of work)

    Impressive app Eugene.

    Let's compare it with google drawings, created by google (corp with almost unlimited resources!)  on html5.

    Google seems obsessed with intentionally writing apps that look spartan. And this is better than office?

    http://docs0.google.com/demo/edit?id=scADLSBOPLySYetItl_1f-GmK&hl=en&dt=document#document

    You can't even load the page 1/3 of the time because of some error. And I'm running Chrome!

    Friday, June 03, 2011 2:58 AM
  • I can understand when someone compares MS Office with OpenOffice(LibreOffice). But I can't believe that someone is dare enough to compare it with ugly Google Docs Frown

    Friday, June 03, 2011 3:02 AM
  • I am simply amazed at all the things said here. Please know that I am being as respectful and serious as I can about the matter, but it really surprises me what I have read in this thread to the point I had to join and post, I felt compelled to give a different view of the situation.

    For example, a poster compared a small silverlight project to Google Drawings claiming the small project to be better when Google has "unlimited" resources, but failed to compare the time invested or resources actually spent by Google, maybe Google Drawings was developed by one single bored employee during lunch and got published the next day, maybe not.

    Another thing seemingly forgotten is that Silverlight does not work on Linux machines, the "cross platform" claim is invalid based on my and my friends' experience. (Please remember that Moonlight is not developed or released by Microsoft and most importantly, is not Silverlight).

    As another poster mentioned, HTML5 is naturally cross platform, you dont need to change one line of code to have it working on a different computer. Until IE9 you did have to add special rules to have web applications working on IE due to its lack of compatibility (specially with CSS) but they have done a much better job lately and this breach is being gapped.

    Very honestly, the original claim in this thread sounds to me a little lazy, like "I learned this programming language, the world has to stop so I can continue working like I do", maybe it was not the poster's intention but that's what it sounds like to me.
    Javascript is very easy to learn, here is a website that will help you: http://www.w3schools.com/js/default.asp

    Maybe Silverlight is not a failure like a poster suggested, maybe the web evolved too fast and Microsoft has to evolve alongside or really fall behind, HTML5 is happening either way.

    Friday, June 03, 2011 3:04 AM
  • @Jamie After 11 years experience as a JavaScript developer, my best tip is that you don't learn a framework, learn the language, and then it doesn't matter which framework you use, it's easy to adapt to any one of them when you understand how they work. That's a lot of work, yes, but I promise you it will pay itself back. And I'd keep those hot poker comments to myself, if I were you, if you don't want to display your ignorance, just tell me what you can't do in JavaScript? Heck, someone just did an application running Linux kernel in JavaScript, when you know how to do that in Silverlight, you may have some justification for your comment in some eyes.


    Inconsistencies, yes, but ever tried getting your Silverlight app to work on a Linux-based computer? Inconsistencies are what computers are made of, if you don't like inconsistencies, I suggest you start making all your apps for Macs, where it's not so easy for people to change the computer. However if you plan on staying on the top of your current game, not learning proper JavaScript, HTML and CSS is not an option.


    Good luck to you in all your efforts, I sincerely wish you the best, although I'm not sure it came off that way! :)

    Friday, June 03, 2011 3:12 AM
  • Hi.

    UP?

    Friday, June 03, 2011 3:14 AM
  • Guys, I've been pretty clear that my hands are tied here, so don't read anything more into my lack of comments than that. We simply aren't allowed to say anything about this. It's not that we have nothing to say. It's not that we don't care. It's not that I personally don't care, because I do, a lot.

    I know that in the big picture that's pretty meaningless, but it's all I have at the moment.

    Pete

    Sounds like some hope.

    Thanks Pete

    Friday, June 03, 2011 3:22 AM
  • Heh, sorry to you all, I just like Docs better, and it's just a personal opinion, like I said, and I completely understand why you find it hilarious. The UI is minimal, but being an office application, I prefer it not to be so flashy, that would just get in my way, I'd rather have all the collaboration, openness and crap. :) If you like flashy, I suggest you take MSOffice, it's a great program, just not designed for me. I like having the freedom of choice, and all the options available, just like I use both Windows and Linux. Use the best tool for the job is a good motto in this industry. If you are making a rich web-based app, the best tool for the job is most likely HTML/CSS/JS. However, if you suck at JS and hate it, but rock with SL, use SL.

    Friday, June 03, 2011 3:29 AM
  • @Purefan A good post, but I wouldn't recommend w3schools for anyone, they're completely out of date and are one of the biggest reasons there's so much bad javascript around.


    Good places to learn are:

    MSDN

    http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/yek4tbz0(v=vs.94).aspx


    MDN

    https://developer.mozilla.org/En/javascript


    I suggest using both.

    Friday, June 03, 2011 3:34 AM
  • I would not worry too much about it, they are a multi billion dollar company and Ballmer knows what he is doing. It has been an amazing user experience journey (console -> MFC -> .NET -> XAML)

    XAML / Silverlight (via CLR) is a completely different paradigm compared to HTML (via JS), they serve two entirely different purposes.

    If developers wish to drive square pegs through round holes developing complex Rich Internet Application using HTML 5, so be it.

    IMHO anyone trying to take a technology that was intended for a wikipedia type experience and attempt to build Rich Internet Application will be wasting the majority of their time on a futile attempt to overcome the limitations of the HTML platform.

    Jason

    Friday, June 03, 2011 3:38 AM
  • Gotta love how JS fans in this thread automatically assume that Silverlight developers don't like HTML5/JavaScript because they don't know it - in reality I think you will find that most of us don't like it because we do know it. However I doubt that most people bashing Silverlight know much about it...

    Friday, June 03, 2011 4:06 AM
  • @Jamie After 11 years experience as a JavaScript developer, my best tip is that you don't learn a framework, learn the language, and then it doesn't matter which framework you use, it's easy to adapt to any one of them when you understand how they work.

    I learned the language, and I used it professionally on several very high-profile multi-million dollar projects.  It stinks.   I won't retract the hot poker comment--after working in higher level langauges like C++ for years and years using Javascript is just painful.   I left that job because they did so much javascript work and I really have no intention of going back to javascript ever again.

    Honestly, if this is the crappy lowest-common denominator way that Windows UX is going to be "developed" in the future, I guess I just won't be working on UX anymore.  Which is fine--there will still be tons of back end-work to be done.  I just think it will be a sad commentary on the industry if freakin' Javascript become the platform of choice.   

    In the meantime I guess I'm stuck with everyone else whistling into the wind until September.

    Friday, June 03, 2011 4:09 AM
  • maybe Google Drawings was developed by one single bored employee during lunch and got published the next day, maybe not.

    That's not really how large corporations work, but the bottom line is they've published, and how do I put this nicely... it's kinda lackluster.

    Another thing seemingly forgotten is that Silverlight does not work on Linux machines, the "cross platform" claim is invalid based on my and my friends' experience.

    In regards to the Linux desktop, quite frankly, nobody cares. That crowd will never run anything by Microsoft and it's a microscopic market.

    As another poster mentioned, HTML5 is naturally cross platform, you dont need to change one line of code to have it working on a different computer.

    Really? So why do people pay real money to BUY apps for their phones? Not only is HTML not cross platform, it isn't even single platform. If I can't load up my web page and have it look 100% consistent across browsers on a PC, it's a BROKEN platform. You ALWAYS have to do a mobile optimized version of a web page. Guess how many people actually do that? So like I said, it isn't cross platform. Compile once, run anywhere... it's a pipe dream.

    Javascript is very easy to learn, here is a website that will help you

    The people you are addressing on this site know Javascript, they know it very well, that's why they despise it in comparison to C#. We're Microsoft developers for a reason. We've been spoiled. I'm being very restrained here in respect to the moderator, but there are simply some things that you can't do in JavaScript that you can do in C#. I won't go into them, but as you've recommended a school to us, I would recommend the same to you.

    maybe the web evolved too fast and Microsoft has to evolve alongside or really fall behind, HTML5 is happening either way.

    The problem isn't that Microsoft has fallen behind. The reality is, they're approximately 25 years ahead(no exaggeration considering the glacial speeds of the html committees) and they're proposing we move BACKWARDS. Otherwise we wouldn't be pissed off. Just look what the committees are proposing for vector art? SVG. It's like a bad horror movie. XAML is one DOM with native support for templates, animations, triggers, binding, value converters, custom controls, custom namespaces, etc, etc. It's easy for you to come in and lecture us a bit about how great HTML is, but we use these things on a daily basis and it's our lifeblood as developers. And unless you've developed in the WPF world, you can't even possibly know how antiquated HTML strikes us because you've never experienced it. Now if a WPF veteran were to come in here and praised HTML, that would be a different story. But so far, that just hasn't happened, and I'd be stunned if it did.

    Now if I were part of Microsoft marketing, I'd be challenging you to some sort of code off where the final result would be determined by end users. I think we'd both be curious to see the results, and I'm 100% convinced the WPF team would crush the HTML 5 team. That would be both educational and fun to watch.

    Friday, June 03, 2011 4:28 AM
  • Hey !

    You don't have to feel that way! You'll still be able to develop applications using Silverlight, .NET & WinForms ... , cuz HTML5/JS cannot reach the system and play with it.

    But In my opinion, I feel sorry for all of those who are disappointed!!

    HTML makes it easier for anyone to build a beautiful design. most of the .net applications are ugly and, more or less, all use the default Microsoft Look&Feels.

    most of software developers do not care about design, and that, in my opinion, is disapointing. Cuz developers are ment to be efficient in what they do.

    HTML5 makes it a lot easier to design your applications.

    JavaScript friend is revolution. I'm not going to teach you everything so if you wanna know more about it go take a look here: http://promotejs.com


    HTML/JS ain't still the same as they were 10 years ago, and I would recommand you give them a chance and try to learn them ^^

    Friday, June 03, 2011 5:14 AM
  • Abderrahmane you assume all the negative comments are from people who used js/html 10 years ago. They aren't!

    I been developing sites in html/js up to early this year and Silverlight is so much more powerful and easier to develop in.

    Have you even used Silverlight? XAML? .Net?

    Friday, June 03, 2011 5:32 AM

  • most of the .net applications are ugly and, more or less, all use the default Microsoft Look&Feels.

    You know nothing about .NET, aren't you?

    Friday, June 03, 2011 5:35 AM
  • Abderrahmane: I really do recommend you spend some time learning about Silverlight, or for that matter WPF.  If you do you might understand why some of us regard HTML (of any variety) + JavaScript as more of a "broad reach" solution that represents an inexplicable backward step as a primary target for Windows development.

    It also goes without saying (except that apparently it doesn't) that designers can achieve stunningly beautiful and expressive UI in Silverlight, and without having to resort to hacks and workaround. Of course, I've never seen an ugly web page :-)

    Some might see parallels with the anger of some VB6 developers when that language was effectively superseded by .NET, but there is a clear difference: .NET is to most impartial observers a clear improvement on classic VB (and VB.NET for those who choose to use it is a logical development of Visual Basic, although personally I find C# more to my taste), whereas I have no hesitation in contending that whatever virtues the combination may have, HTML5 + JavaScript is manifestly not better than .NET.
    And if it's not better, what's the point of the disruption, particularly since it throws away the opportunity to create a shared pool of skills between WP7 and the touch-based PC?

    PS. Forum devs: "Sepertate"? (see instruction about separating tags).

    Friday, June 03, 2011 5:39 AM
  • before you go any further with your measuring contest, you should not that Edward Moemeka wrote the First C# book  ... I suggest you follow the appropriate channels like every other "real" professional developer and work your MS contacts to get clarity ... instead of ranting about something you actually dont even have enough information about to form a valid opinion.  It is reactionary and absolutely the wrong way to run a "real" busines.

    I understand your frustration. You must have a lot invested in c# and Silverlight - perhaps even more than I do. But I have indeed "worked my MS contacts", and they're completely unsure of Silverlight's future themselves. The point is, I don't really want to spend my time on this political second guessing. I want to build stuff. If I stick with Silverlight, the platform *might* still be properly supported, so I *might* have a tablet app deployed in one year+, and MS tablets *might* actually be popular. But if I port, I'll definitely have a tablet app working in ~4 months, and iPads are definitely popular.

    I'm not responding to just one press release. I've been getting increasingly nervous over the past year. I'm just not sure I want to continue to base my business on an uncertain platform. I don't want to have to nervously read between the lines of every press release, and trawl through forums like this in a desperate attempt to find clues that Microsoft still cares. *They* should be trumpeting Silverlight to *us*, not the other way around. Rewriting kernels is a nuisance, but it doesn't frighten me. Being abandoned by Microsoft in 9 months' time does.

    Friday, June 03, 2011 5:51 AM
  • higher level langauges like C++ for years and years using Javascript is just painful

    You do realise that JS is (prototypically) OO and has first class functions right? JS is a functional language and is higher level then C++ (Just like python / ruby). I think that's a rather unfair and un-informed statement.

    I fully understand Silverlight and WPF are better and more complete tools but you guys are really demonizing html5/js over the top. 

    Friday, June 03, 2011 5:58 AM
  • If I can't load up my web page and have it look 100% consistent across browsers on a PC, it's a BROKEN platform


    It's not that you can't, because you can, but you don't want to and you shouldn't want to, but with HTML5 making different designs for the same things is easier, and that's what you should do. And who compiles html anyway? jk


    And btw, there are no 'single platforms', platforms keep evolving and increasing version numbers and to make them work, the end user has to keep updating the platform, which has been handled poorly with web browsers, it's not the platform's fault itself, it's the fault of us developers, delivering the experience by the lowest common denominator, but that's changing, and with promising speed.


    Anyway, the inconsistency factor is a ridiculous argument, if you don't care about the masses that don't / won't have Silverlight installed, why would you care about the people using older browsers?


    Now if I were part of Microsoft marketing, I'd be challenging you to some sort of code off where the final result would be determined by end users. I think we'd both be curious to see the results, and I'm 100% convinced the WPF team would crush the HTML 5 team. That would be both educational and fun to watch.


    Hmm, probably, because you have longer line experience of the tools you are using, whereas the HTML5 team keeps getting more tools as it goes. But it's not as if we web developers didn't have any experience other than that of web technologies. That said, just look at the most appealing application products in the world (to the end user), Google, Twitter, Facebook, Amazon, Yahoo, I think the crowd has already decided. And those don't even use practically any of the features offered by HTML5.


    @Jamie I apologize for my own ignorance in your case. And I can somewhat understand your frustration, it's not long ago that JavaScript was a toy language, that was painful to use, but it's not the language's fault, it's the fault of the possible use cases. The language itself is IMO superior to any other language I've used, and the language itself has no such thing that couldn't be done with it but can be done with say C#, in fact there are things you can do with JavaScript you can't do with any other language.


    However, like I said before, I don't think you have anything to worry about, I don't think SL is going anywhere for the foreseeable future. That said I find it hard to see why you see this news so threatening, the OS being built on these tools is probably going to make your lives easier as well.

    Friday, June 03, 2011 6:07 AM
  • This discussion here mirror "Right now there's a faction war inside Microsoft over HTML5 vs Silverlight..."
    Is that all you want Microsoft - dev battle and monkey dance between the rounds?
    Why i should invest time for learning something like this - exam 70-599, I think I know what will happen with WP8?
    Oh and Silverlight devs shouldn't worry about Microsoft choosing HTML/JS for Windows 8, in one or two years they will move to something SuperNew.NEXT

    Friday, June 03, 2011 7:14 AM
  • Guys, I've been pretty clear that my hands are tied here, so don't read anything more into my lack of comments than that. We simply aren't allowed to say anything about this. It's not that we have nothing to say. It's not that we don't care. It's not that I personally don't care, because I do, a lot.

    Peter, we hear you. Personally, the messaging needs to be more consistent, but I sense that MS is facing declining mindshare and is pulling some pretty desperate measures. With Apple in ascendancy, MS has already lost control of the client. It therefore makes sense to pull some weight behind servers, and develop tools with serve HTML apps better.


    Friday, June 03, 2011 7:31 AM
  • This discussion here mirror "Right now there's a faction war inside Microsoft over HTML5 vs Silverlight..."
    Is that all you want Microsoft - dev battle and monkey dance between the rounds?
    Why i should invest time for learning something like this - exam 70-599, I think I know what will happen with WP8?
    Oh and Silverlight devs shouldn't worry about Microsoft choosing HTML/JS for Windows 8, in one or two years they will move to something SuperNew.NEXT

    You just don't get it, do you? ANY investment in open standards (say you learned HTML3 in 1997) pays-off handsomly as opposed to time spent on, say, ADO, DAO, ActiveX, and friends [yes, yes, including the better-then-sliced-bread Silverlight]

    Friday, June 03, 2011 7:41 AM
  • This discussion here mirror "Right now there's a faction war inside Microsoft over HTML5 vs Silverlight..."
    Is that all you want Microsoft - dev battle and monkey dance between the rounds?
    Why i should invest time for learning something like this - exam 70-599, I think I know what will happen with WP8?
    Oh and Silverlight devs shouldn't worry about Microsoft choosing HTML/JS for Windows 8, in one or two years they will move to something SuperNew.NEXT

     

    You just don't get it, do you? ANY investment in open standards (say you learned HTML3 in 1997) pays-off handsomly as opposed to time spent on, say, ADO, DAO, ActiveX, and friends [yes, yes, including the better-then-sliced-bread Silverlight]

    With Regards to you,

    I get it. I have better-then-sliced-bread Silverlight.

    Make your shiny tags and deliver to your clients the most native HTML5 experience.:)

    Friday, June 03, 2011 8:06 AM
  • WHERE IS MR RED SHIRT ?


    It would be nice if Mr Red Shirt took his head out of the clouds for a moment, stepped up to the plate and man up on a message to us developers.  I guess it's easy to hide behind corporate policy right now.

    Friday, June 03, 2011 8:39 AM
  • I'm actually bummed about this, but I don't think it's that extreme.

    1st sane comment, if one starts reading...

    Hopefully it wont be that extreme, if so, it would be devastating to MS more than so for the developers...

    We, the developers, started by learning things, we can re-learn, but for them, their tooling and platform will be lost and alongwith the trust and reliability built around it ....

    So lets wait and watch and till then start taking a wee bit more interest in HTML5 and JS wave ....

    Friday, June 03, 2011 8:39 AM
  • why not they shutdown this. some one have to answer from ms.

    Whart are futrure as SL-Developer or Techi

    What about my Software which build on SL

    WHY learn that.

    Friday, June 03, 2011 8:48 AM
  • Oh dear... This forum is full of trolls, seems like the majority of posters are six years old or something...

    Geez people, the gadget platform in Vista and 7 was also JavaScript based...

    Friday, June 03, 2011 9:29 AM
  • Microsoft must hire Chuck Norris for official spokesman and let him decide who's gonna die!

    Friday, June 03, 2011 9:30 AM
  • I do not think the problem is only with messaging. I suspect it is more sinister than that.

    Friday, June 03, 2011 9:40 AM
  • avaScript itself is a powerful, functional language, and as such it's actually a superset of OOP. But it does have its conceptual flaws and inconsistencies. JavaScript can act as the low level language of the web though, similar to IL (compressed/minified JS is so cryptic that it looks a lot like bytecode actually), so that those flaws wouldn't matter anymore. Developers really do need a richer choice of programming languages to choose from. Once again, all we need is a C# or .NET IL to JavaScript compiler. There already exist several implementations:
    http://projects.nikhilk.net/ScriptSharp
    http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2602340
    I don't actually mind so much that "Silverlight" as a plugin is becoming obsolete, but as said before, the brand name "Silverlight" can remain as a development model, because we don't want to fiddle around with image sprites, CSS, HTML markup and raw JavaScript anymore. Especially important for me are the Silverlight/WPF layout capabilities, MVVM/data binding, and to be able to use a strongly typed language like C# or even F#, especially to reuse code in back-end/middle ware/front-end contexts. XAML is an Application MarkUp Language after all and thus can serve very well as a GUI abstraction layer.
    UserVoice items to vote for:
    http://dotnet.uservoice.com/forums/4325-silverlight-feature-suggestions/suggestions/1029473-make-a-silverlight-app-render-to-html5-svg-css
    http://dotnet.uservoice.com/forums/4325-silverlight-feature-suggestions/suggestions/1713161-compile-silverlight-to-html5-css3-and-javascript-?ref=title

    JavaScript itself is a powerful, functional language, and as such it's actually a superset of OOP. But it does have its conceptual flaws and inconsistencies. JavaScript can act as the low level language of the web though, similar to IL (compressed/minified JS is so cryptic that it looks a lot like bytecode actually), so that those flaws wouldn't matter anymore. Developers really do need a richer choice of programming languages to choose from. Once again, all we need is a C# or .NET IL to JavaScript compiler. There already exist several implementations:

    http://projects.nikhilk.net/ScriptSharp

    http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2602340

    I don't actually mind so much that "Silverlight" as a plugin is becoming obsolete, but as said before, the brand name "Silverlight" can remain as a development model, because we don't want to fiddle around with image sprites, CSS, HTML markup and raw JavaScript anymore. Especially important for me are the Silverlight/WPF layout capabilities, MVVM/data binding, and to be able to use a strongly typed language like C# or even F#, especially to reuse code in back-end/middle ware/front-end contexts. XAML is an Application MarkUp Language after all and thus can serve very well as a GUI abstraction layer.

    UserVoice items to vote for:

    http://dotnet.uservoice.com/forums/4325-silverlight-feature-suggestions/suggestions/1029473-make-a-silverlight-app-render-to-html5-svg-css

    http://dotnet.uservoice.com/forums/4325-silverlight-feature-suggestions/suggestions/1713161-compile-silverlight-to-html5-css3-and-javascript-?ref=title


    Friday, June 03, 2011 9:47 AM
  • The formatting of my last post having been fucked up by the HTML editor just proves my point. Cool

    Friday, June 03, 2011 9:56 AM

  • Silverlight geek turns on his PC.

    Sees Windows 8 for tables video.

    Screams, Yells %$!@

    Opens web-browser.

    Navigates to http://knockoutjs.com/

    Screams, Yells %$!@


    LOL

    Friday, June 03, 2011 9:58 AM
  • I agree. Does no one remember that previous attempts to use Javascript on the desktop (namely Google Gears and Adobe Air) have failed miserably.

    Friday, June 03, 2011 9:59 AM
  • Another thing seemingly forgotten is that Silverlight does not work on Linux machines, the "cross platform" claim is invalid based on my and my friends' experience. (Please remember that Moonlight is not developed or released by Microsoft and most importantly, is not Silverlight).

    As another poster mentioned, HTML5 is naturally cross platform, you dont need to change one line of code to have it working on a different computer. Until IE9 you did have to add special rules to have web applications working on IE due to its lack of compatibility (specially with CSS) but they have done a much better job lately and this breach is being gapped.

    Yes, I think most Silverlight developers know that it won't work with Linux (very well) and iOS. Every languages/tools has its place. That is another issue though.

    What we are talking here is that Microsoft didn't show the total commitment (yet) to XAML-based application model like Silverlight and WPF, by promoting HTML5/JS as a first class citizen in Windows 8.

    But like Pete said, there is still a lot of unknown. We, XAML developers, just want to know that ASAP.

    Friday, June 03, 2011 10:01 AM
  • Article published yesterday:

    http://blogs.msdn.com/b/bryang/archive/2011/06/02/windows-8.aspx


    Backwards compatibility is a Windows hallmark and this latest version won’t be any different as existing Windows 7 applications will be able to run on “8. So for all those developers who just completed a lengthy project, all that code isn't wasted. If however you want to write new applications specifically designed for “8” it’s now possible to use HTML5 and JavaScript which opens up even more possibilities for the professional software developer or the hobbist.


    Friday, June 03, 2011 10:01 AM
  • JavaScript is powerful indeed but it has a bunch of problems which make it very difficult to deal with.

    1. Every browser has its own JavaScript implementation so things that work in one browser might not work in others. In case of Silverlight not sure about Linux, but on Mac and Windows most browsers work approximately the same.

    2. It is not strongly typed (this is very important especially for team development since type compatibility allows to prevent many errors at the compilation stage)

    3. It is considerably less developed than C#, missing a lot of features in comparison to C#. MS won't be able to add those if it wants to stay multiplatform and if it does not - why not use SL?

    4. OOP capabilities in JavaScript look more like hacks than innate features.

    I can continue the list.

    Friday, June 03, 2011 10:02 AM
  • Its a common trait to assume those who disagree with you have less knowledge. Sometimes its just they disagree

    Friday, June 03, 2011 10:06 AM
  • It's very smart of Microsoft to go Javascript/HTML5. It means I can develop using my Adobe tools and eventually deploy on a browser engine that is better than Internet Explorer such as Chrome or Safari engine running on a iOS or Android device. Microsoft is helping us make the Windows OS and development tools unnecessary and irrelevant, thanks MS!

    Friday, June 03, 2011 10:17 AM
  • do not worry, proprietary tags will prevent you from doing that.

    Friday, June 03, 2011 10:42 AM
  • I understand this is frustrating if you have invested in Silverlight. But if you have invested in JavaScript then HTML5 in Windows 8 is really good news! I never believed in Silverlight - its cross-platform story was always too half-hearted, even dependent on Mono's success..

    In the end, why should developers rewrite their apps for every new platform? We'd like to have one. And now it looks JavaScript/HTML5 is the platform, the new common VM.

    Of course coding JavaScript by hand is insane. It doesn't even have types! But you can go a long way if you treat it as an assembly language. My company did it with WebSharper - we simply compile F# to JavaScript - so we don't have to deal with this crazy language directly - and then run it in the browsers.


    Friday, June 03, 2011 10:47 AM
  • the usefulness of a language should be determined not only by what can be done with it, but also (and very importantly) by how easy it is to build software with it.

    From my point of view it is virtually impossible to build business project as a team using JavaScript, while Silverlight is one of the best platforms in that respect.

    Friday, June 03, 2011 10:49 AM
  • I understand this is frustrating if you have invested in Silverlight.

    I think it's not just for Silverlight, at least I am worried more about the future of XAML and the whole .NET framework.

    Friday, June 03, 2011 11:00 AM
  • I love the idea of html5 + JavaScript Cool

    I used to be one of the biggest fans of WPF and Silverlight, and I did develop large projects with WPF and C#, and today I just hate the slooooooowwww WPF so much.

    Stop dreaming, and think for a little bit, Microsoft has 3 technologies, the elephant WPF, the mini elephant Sliverlight, and the superman Html5+JavaScript

    WPF is almost not used, Silverlight is somehow used, and html5 is used by most of the people in the planet!

    Microsoft should be insane not to build the new user interface over html5!

    Every team at Microsoft had their chances, the WPF team built the slowest technology Microsoft ever built, the Silverlight team tried to fix it and hit a wall, the Html team had a slow IE, but in order to compete with Google Chrome they improved the performance a lot, JavaScript in IE9 is faster than C# inside WPF!

    This is the new reality, Html + JavaScript is lightening fast, WPF/Silverlight + C# is absolutely slow, and they never tried to get it faster, or they can’t!


    Friday, June 03, 2011 11:11 AM
  • WPF and Silverlight overpriced any user interface

    I don’t understand why everything should be object oriented? It is slowing things down, projects used to cost thousands of dollars, now they cost millions, and they are going towards tens of millions of dollars!

    All of that just to keep the developer happy and living in a dream, and all what the developer things about is how to put an object inside an object, and reuse code that cannot be reused, and argue if something should be public or private and then try to go around the limitations with reflection.

    Thousands of productivity hours are lost in refactoring, and putting business logic in DLLs that the server and they client must access, and then write exceptions for the server and other for the client, and then workarounds, and bugs and more fixes and workarounds, and the list goes on ….

    It is like producing one door and attempt to use it in your car and in your house, yes it is called ‘door’ and no, the one in your car is absolutely different product from the one in your house, maybe it should have been called something else.

    The results are clear, typed programming is extra slow, and extra expensive, and have the same runtime bugs, don’t believe me? Open a large APS.NET project using VS.NET 2010 and try to debug it, repeat the same with a large html5 project and Google Chrome and try to debut it.

    Press Ctrl+Shift+J in Google Chrome to start the debugger of any page, I just did not believe how fast is that thing, it is instant, and Microsoft now competes with it with F12 in IE, the Silverlight and WPF teams don’t compete with anyone, they just don’t care about performance!


    Friday, June 03, 2011 11:31 AM
  • Windows 8 will have a built-in iOS and Android emulator so you can run tons of apps cross platform. On the server side we will use Java, so MS can drop development tools and we can all enjoy the new world order :).

    Friday, June 03, 2011 11:36 AM
  • WPF is almost not used, Silverlight is somehow used, and html5 is used by most of the people in the planet

    can I ask what planet you are from?

    Friday, June 03, 2011 11:39 AM
  • The results are clear, typed programming is extra slow, and extra expensive, and have the same runtime bugs, don’t believe me? Open a large APS.NET project using VS.NET 2010 and try to debug it, repeat the same with a large html5 project and Google Chrome and try to debut it.

    OK let me modify my question - which universe is it?

    Friday, June 03, 2011 11:41 AM
  • Seriously comparing scripting languages against compiled languages? They have different purposes. C makes a horrible language for scripting in a browser (which is why we have JavaScript), JavaScript makes a horrible language for writing an operating system (which is why we have C). This is not a language or scripted versus compiled discussion. I think the point is that Microsoft played up HTML5 again and again dropped a bomb in the XAML (WPF/SL) community by leaving XAML out of the picture. Even if XAML is dropped and they go HTML5 all the way, MS will start finding reasons for adding their own extensions to HTML5 which will weaken the whole open standard approach. Its part of a natural swing between open standards and proprietary solutions. Classic ASP was fully based upon HTML and javascript, but it still had all these funky extensions to it trying to get all the functionality in that would make it better than the competition. I just hope that is not where we are going again, because .NET was like a breath of fresh air in the MS-based web development after classic ASP. Maybe MS will extend HTML5 to the point where it is a XAML replacement? We obviously don't know and MS won't tell us at this point.

     

    Friday, June 03, 2011 11:49 AM
  • Wow, I won't even attempt to correct g.t. there's just way too many things that are flat out incorrect. Compiled C# is slower than Javascript? Typed langauges are bad? Silverlight & WPf projects are costing millions of dollars? Right... Ok...

    On a side note the silence from Microsoft speak volumes. If they had good news for developers they would say it, they have nothing to lose, they however would add fuel to flame if they admitted to the fact they're dropping support for technologies many people have heavily invested in. Losing customers in the process. Time to read between the lines and stop the wishful thinking. Sometimes superior technologies fail in favor of support, ubiquity, and/or percieved ubiquity, eg. VHS vs Betamax, IP vs IPX, etc...

    Friday, June 03, 2011 11:50 AM
  • Windows 8 will have a C++ API (at least) for playing within the new UI. There are C++ applications running in the new UI today, for example Internet Explorer 10 and Modern Reader (pdf), with the latter being wrapped up in a Windows Phone-like XAP (AppX?).

    I believe the HTML/JS announce was simply to send a message to consumers and perhaps investors that "we can do what the other big guys are doing, too". Note they did not say the word only. (They were very specific in their language.)

    Takeaway here is:

    • Microsoft announces things in a funny way.
    • The worst case is you build a C++ app. to host your Silverlight content.

    So take a deep breath, and enjoy the rest of your day :)

    [Disclaimer: I'm not a representative of Microsoft; I'm just a technical guy (Within Windows blogger)]

    [Edit: Added 'takeaway' to clarify]

    Friday, June 03, 2011 12:39 PM
  • The worst case is you build a C++ app. to host your Silverlight content.

    Worst case eh?  So how is that going to work if MS doesn't port SL to W8 for ARM?  Use Moonlight?

    [Edit: clarify "W8 for ARM", not just "ARM" as obviously they've done that for WP7]

    Friday, June 03, 2011 1:42 PM
  • dude.

    seriously?

    ok... show me your x-thread trading app built on js and I'll show you mine in silverlight via c#. let's see just how many trades you can process....

    Friday, June 03, 2011 1:42 PM
  • I don’t understand why everything should be object oriented? It is slowing things down, projects used to cost thousands of dollars, now they cost millions, and they are going towards tens of millions of dollars!

    Thank you g.t. I think you've proved my earlier point.

    and argue if something should be public or private and then try to go around the limitations with reflection.

    Hmm, I might have to try that later.

    Thousands of productivity hours are lost in refactoring

    That's what I love about JavaScript, the code refactors itself saving the developer tons of time.

    putting business logic in DLLs that the server and they client must access, and then write exceptions for the server and other for the client, and then workarounds, and bugs and more fixes and workarounds, and the list goes on ….

    I've gotten rid of all my business logic and let JavaScript handle it.

    The results are clear, typed programming is extra slow, and extra expensive

    I agree. When I've been forced to maintain c# code I changed all the object declarations to object. Then I just cast to the appropriate type when necessary. I've gotten rid of virtually all my compile time bugs. Well that's enough for now, I'm going to go try that reflection stuff.

    Friday, June 03, 2011 2:00 PM
  • I don’t understand why everything should be object oriented? It is slowing things down, projects used to cost thousands of dollars, now they cost millions, and they are going towards tens of millions of dollars!

    Thank you g.t. I think you've proved my earlier point.

    and argue if something should be public or private and then try to go around the limitations with reflection.

    Hmm, I might have to try that later.

    Thousands of productivity hours are lost in refactoring

    That's what I love about JavaScript, the code refactors itself saving the developer tons of time.

    putting business logic in DLLs that the server and they client must access, and then write exceptions for the server and other for the client, and then workarounds, and bugs and more fixes and workarounds, and the list goes on ….

    I've gotten rid of all my business logic and let JavaScript handle it.

    The results are clear, typed programming is extra slow, and extra expensive

    I agree. When I've been forced to maintain c# code I changed all the object declarations to object. Then I just cast to the appropriate type when necessary. I've gotten rid of virtually all my compile time bugs. Well that's enough for now, I'm going to go try that reflection stuff.


    funny how difficult things are when you have no idea what you are doing

    Friday, June 03, 2011 2:02 PM
  • Wow....   This thread has well over 5 million views and it's only been a couple of days.   I think this warrants some kind of response by Microsoft.   Something better than "wait until the BUILD event"

    Some people are involved with large .Net/Silverlight/XNA projects.  They have spent lots of time and money invested into libraries, frameworks, and knowhow.  They expect to be able to migrate these applications/frameworks/knowhow  in some way to Windows 8 touch applications.

    The .Net platform is the greatest development platform to ever exist.  To say that it's going to be completely dropped in favor of HTML5... seems crazy.  

    WP7 runs on Silverlight and XNA so to say that people cannot migrate their existing (or in progress) WP7 apps to Windows 8....  seems crazy.  

    Completely isolating those developers that have been working on the Windows platform for decades....  seems crazy. 

    And YES you would be isolating those developers because everyone knows that touch apps are the future (see StarTrek).

    However the last couple days the messaging from Microsoft on Windows 8 has been HTML5 and you'll learn more about it at the BUILD event.    Seriously, why on earth would anyone need to go to a BUILD event to learn about HTML5 and Javascript?

    I'm assuming that Microsoft is not crazy and these apps initially are running on top of IE 10 so they are just focusing on HTML5 first.  Silverlight should also work through the same mechanism because a xap, or even a SWF would be just like any other HTML asset right? Hence the earlier comment about IE10 being able to run Silverlight.   However THE LONG TERM PLAN would be to have formal support for other technologies and languages through their AppX package platform.

    However I wish they would just say that so that people like me wouldn't be wasting their time freaking out ;-)

    The other question would be whether a silverlight/flash plugin will even be available on ARM processors initially...

    Friday, June 03, 2011 2:03 PM
  • >> This is not a language or scripted versus compiled discussion.
    Thank you mr2 for bringing the conversation back to the ISSUE AT HAND.


    What we have here is weakness in the MS boardroom.  Someone at MS is saying "XAML is not a standard.  What if no one buys it?"
    The old Microsoft would approach the problem much differently:  "Lets make XAML a standard.  Then we will see if anyone buys it."

    I'm using the word "standard" to make a point.  The argument I'm trying to make is that there is lack of commitment and lack of leadership on Microsoft's part.  When you have a technology as good as silverlight and a clearly defined market niche with no other competitor in sight you MUST COMMIT and solidify your position.


    Someone is going to dispute "no other competitor in sight" so I'll answer it now:  No other technology platform for enterprise development offers the level of intetegration and cohesion as .net, sql server, visual studio, TFS, etc., etc.  SL brings them all together and offers a superior programming model.  </technical discussion>.

    Friday, June 03, 2011 2:04 PM
  • The old Microsoft would approach the problem much differently:  "Lets make XAML a standard.  Then we will see if anyone buys it."

    I loved the old Microsoft. The new Microsoft would have never challenged WordPerfect or Netware. It would have stuck to its commitment to OS/2. In fact it would have left the operating system itself to Gary Kildall. That old Microsoft allowed it to crush everyone in its path. The new Microsoft is getting spanked by Apple and Google.

    Friday, June 03, 2011 2:09 PM
  • can I ask what planet you are from?


    It is very easy, do a small research, search all the jobs in your area that are looking for WPF developer, don’t write a global query that lists everything in the world, search in a particular area, and read the job details, make sure the word WPF is not just there, make sure the project is WPF

    Try again and search for Html and JavaScript applications.

    Forget about the future, look at today, find how many apps you know are written by WPF, yeh, VS.NET 2010, now go to Google Chrome web store and look at what is there, or just try Microsoft Office Web; the market speaks for itself.

    VS.NET 2010 has WPF menus and a WPF editor, they spent months of development and millions of dollars, and reused some of the C++ code they had, and did tons of workarounds to get it to work, and it is still slower than VS.NET 2008

    Try to create the VS.NET 2010 menus and user interface with Html5 and JavaScript, 1 day of work? 3 days perhaps? And inside Google Chrome it will be much faster than anything out there.

    Create a 10 million lines C# file and open it with Google Chrome or IE9, try to open it with VS.NET 2010 as a part of a project, and look at the difference.

    Stop living in a dream, WPF is slow, Silverlight is Slow, they could have been very fast, but for some unknown reason to us, they did not, maybe they can’t or maybe some people there did not care.


    Friday, June 03, 2011 2:13 PM
  • This whole thread has become very noisy, and I'm going to turn it off. Thanks.

    Friday, June 03, 2011 2:18 PM
  • Seriously comparing scripting languages against compiled languages

    Stop kidding yourself, C# a compiled language? Compiles to what? ah yeh, to a script language that is called MSIL (encoded in numbers to look like the real thing) then it goes through a script engine that is slower than the Google V8 script engine or the Microsoft IE9 script engine.

    C# is a compiled language, :-) ha ha ha ha


    Friday, June 03, 2011 2:18 PM
  • What we have here is weakness in the MS boardroom.  Someone at MS is saying "XAML is not a standard.  What if no one buys it?"
    The old Microsoft would approach the problem much differently:  "Lets make XAML a standard.  Then we will see if anyone buys it."

    I'm using the word "standard" to make a point.  The argument I'm trying to make is that there is lack of commitment and lack of leadership on Microsoft's part.  When you have a technology as good as silverlight and a clearly defined market niche with no other competitor in sight you MUST COMMIT and solidify your position.

    My biggest problem as a consultant and dealing with customers, is what is highlighted in bold. Customers don't trust MS commitment to products anymore. I'm loosing customers to other platform for that reason.

    Last week, [exactly a week before Win8 demo], a prospect told me that they don't want to use SL, because MS is jumping around on SL. I then asked them to consider ASP.Net and he said, they would, if MS had not switched gears and jump on MVC. He said ever since PHP has come out, they have stayed on the top it. Adobe has been on Flash for over a decade. Apple is committed on their products. But MS keeps fighting internally and killing any product as soon as it becomes mature and productive.
    As a whole, I have little faith and assurance to go to a customer and say "Bet your business on MS". They want it in writing and I sure as hell going to sign that.
    This constant changing/dropping product at MS, has set and is setting a very negative tone in customer's mind. It's affecting my livelihood that I have invested years in MS technologies.

    Friday, June 03, 2011 2:23 PM
  • Try to write a C# compiler (or a javascript interpreter when you feel C# is really no longer needed) in HTML5+javascript. Assuming that nobody is naive enough to think there will only be one programming language going forward, the rub must be that HTML5+Javascript and XAML are now technologies that seem to get into each others space. But they are really quite different technologies with different strenghts. As an example: try a massive stateful application in HMTL5+JavaScript. We will see later this year/next year if MS has managed to write Excel or Powerpoint in HTML5+JavaScript.  If so, I will hope they will spread the knowledge and tools needed for that to all of us. Currently: evaluating large calculation models (regression, prediction) in HTML+JavaScript is horrible because of the lack of persistent state. Our user community constantly expects us to write web based apps that act like Excel and without SL it has proven to be a horrible undertaking. It results in unmaintainable code and hacks if you try to do it client side, you get killed by state overhead and server performance when you try to go round-trip to the server.

    Friday, June 03, 2011 2:30 PM
  • Apple is committed on their products

    Committed? The iOS is a BSD + KHTML that became later WebKit, it is a 100% rewrite, it is a totally new operating system, it is 100% incompatible with everything else they had before :-)

    I am for Html5 + JavaScript, I may start using Microsoft products again; the technologies evolve, and their evolution is no different than us, html4 (dhtml) has a good and health child called html5 and he is doing veeeeery well, WPF has a child too, called Silverlight, which happens to be slower than html5

    Natural selection :-)


    Friday, June 03, 2011 2:33 PM
  • Real serious software development can only be done in strong-typed languages. It is impossible in dynamic languages such as Javascript. hands down. Software development goes through several cycles from design to implementation, testing, maintenance and so on. Strong-typed languages help developers detect as many bugs as possible at the implementation stage so the developers causing the defects can solve them directly.

    Dynamic languages cut the corner on that by hiding lots of defects til the runtime and let them blow up in front of QA or, worse, customers. It speeds up the coding at overall quality's expense, which is irresponsible. Defects are however defects. They don't disappear on their own. You don't fix them at the implementation stage (which is the best stage to do it BTW) you have to at some later undesired stages. So dynamic languages' "fast coding" advantage is a shell game at best when looking at the full software development cycle.

    Such true color of dynamic languages does not come out when coding just 2 or 3 thousands lines of code, which is typical in the HTML/JS world so now you have these JS-pumpers coming out of the woodwork talking smack about how great Javascript is and yet it shows when you ask them to elevate their game to major league software development level. It is at then they start to throw lofty and laughable claims around such as "Google Docs better than Office" and so on.

    Now as for why Win8 goes "ga-ga" over H5/JS, I think it's just bad PR-strategies. Maybe they just wanna lure some JS folks to Windows platform but I don't see how truly "immerse" future UI can be done in H5. I mean, come on, how to call KINECT APIs inside a H5/JS programs? Are they gonna add private "EEE-stylle" tags to H5 for that purpose? No gonna work. It has to be in the form of native/.Net support, and we just have to wait and see. That being said it's very bad to keep confusing your army of developers by talking from both sides your mouth all the time. MSFT needs to fix it, FAST!!

    Friday, June 03, 2011 2:33 PM
  • Hey all

    This is getting pretty OT, and I'm locking this thread now.

    This whole thing has blown way out of proportion. Base your information on our primary sources (like our press release), not on third party speculation.

    That's not to minimize how everyone feels, but keep in mind that Windows 8 itself is still a ways off from retail, and even much further away from internal IT adoption. The 8 weeks until //build/ is a pretty small amount of time to wait in comparison.

    Take some vacation time this summer, and look forward to the //build/ conference. Stop speculating based on just a small demo of some very cool new technology. Tell your management to do the same: if they're basing your project work for the next X years on the results of a quick demo for an unreleased operating system, then they are doing you and your company a real disservice.

    Pete

    Friday, June 03, 2011 2:39 PM
  • There was an issue with the thread lock, that is being fixed. Sorry, but I'm deleting posts posted after the lock.

    If you want to start another thread that is on-topic for Silverlight, that's fine.

    I'm not trying to shut people down. I am locking this because of the trolls coming in, who have never been on Silverlight.net before, and taking this way OT.

    This is Silverlight.net. Let's talk about Silverlight.

    Pete

    Friday, June 03, 2011 3:23 PM