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RIA Service Go Live

    Question

  • So when is it expected that RIA Services will be released or at least issued with a Go Live licence? There has been some discussion over in the Silverlight 3 group about its SL3 release date. But it seems that this is just as important to be released at the same time. Otherwise it signifcantly reduces the usefullness of SL3's new LOB functions. 
    Monday, March 23, 2009 6:51 PM

All replies

  • I think .NET RIA Services will probably have another beta/rc before it is released.  If Silverlight 3 is to be released in the summer, I just don't see .NET RIA Services being released in that timeframe (3-6 months).  From what I understand is that they are going to try to move .NET RIA Services under the ADO.NET Data Services umbrella...furthermore, they are probably going to try to support the new Entity Framework features in VS2010.

    Silverlight 3 will not have a "complete" release until VS 2010 (VS designer support).  You could assume that they could release .NET RIA Services around then.  I feel a lot more confident saying they will release: Silverlight 3, SDK, Blend 3, VS 2008 support and Control Toolkit in the Summer of 2009....NET RIA Services is 50/50 for the summer (as it is the new technology just introduced).

    Monday, March 23, 2009 7:23 PM
  • We are looking into CTPs with Go Live license later in the year. We are also planning a revised CTP around the SL3 release date to go with the rest of SL3 components. We are still in the planning stage but we hear your feedback in this regard.

    Thanks.

    Dinesh

    Tuesday, March 24, 2009 12:52 AM
  • OK. So there is nine months left in the year so really we would be wasting our time looking at this if we have a project we needed live in the next six months? Yes, maybe a CTP with go live is available sooner but also just as likely to be end of year.

    As much as I am impressed with what I have seen in SL3 and RIA, this is getting to be a really annoying tactic. Releasing previews and betas without giving a more accurate time frame of when it will be released. It gives no ability for our businesses to determine when its appropriate for us to adopt these technologies. Its all just fire and motion...

    Tuesday, March 24, 2009 1:15 AM
  • Well, everyone would like RIA to RTM ASAP.

    The CTP release a way to get feedback from community so that the product really suits what we want. If everything goes on smoothly, the final release might be out sooner than expected, otherwise, there could be some delays.

    From my experiences from evaluating CTP products (e.g. sync framework, Azure, SDS etc....), you can use a CTP product in your production systems. The major disadvantage is, there are usually some breaking changes between CTP and RTM. Then, you will have some troubles to refactor your codes...Also, CTP release may contains bugs.


    Tuesday, March 24, 2009 3:26 AM
  • @tkd99

    On the contrary, we are given insight to new and upcoming technologies before they are released. Would you rather not have any information until it is final and released so you can start building applications or to even start thinking about them? At least now we have a sneak peek as to what is coming and we can even play with the bits for prototyping and hashing out ideas. This will make for better business decisions when the technology is generally available.

    That being said, I would certainly like to see tentative roadmap for new technologies like Dinesh mentioned.

    Tuesday, March 24, 2009 10:45 AM
  • I'd have no problem if more definitive release dates were released with the previews. MS can release heaps of information about it, tutorials, videos, overviews, etc, etc but they don't know when they expect to release it? Give me a break.

    Without such dates it makes it hard for businesses to know whether its something we can commit too. If I take a gamble and start using this stuff for a project, it might get released early, in which case great. If its later than I hope, then that means a period of time where I have to try to hold things together until it is released and I can start making money on it. MS going to financially support me while I wait for the release? And what do MS get out of it? They potentially stop me from using a competitor's product. If I know the MS product will be released date x, I can make a decision whether to wait or to go ahead and use the competitor's product. If I don't have a date then it makes the whole thing wishy washy. Do I or don't I? Surely it can't be that long until release...maybe....

     

    Tuesday, March 24, 2009 6:23 PM
  • Hi tdk99, Scott Guthrie said there would only be one beta when talking about Silverlight 3 and the Blend team alluded to the cycle not being too long on this either so we can hope this year may be second half.

    Tuesday, March 24, 2009 7:03 PM
  • Alluded,,,hope...maybe.....

    See what I mean ;-) And that's just SL3. No mention on the RIA services.

    Tuesday, March 24, 2009 7:37 PM
  • Your right there it could be .Net 4.0 and VS2010 Huh?

    Tuesday, March 24, 2009 9:50 PM
  • I for one appreciate the CTPs as an opportunity to provide feedback and possibly influence the direction of the product in question. Once the product gets to Beta it's much more difficult to change direction. I would like to think that the RIA services team is listening to our input and using it to make a product that is closer to what we need.

    The roadmap was stated clearly. The Datagrid, dataform, and childwindow controls will ship with SL3. RIA services will follow shortly thereafter as an out of band release.

    CTP releases are Previews and the benefits go both ways, Microsoft is able to get feedback on the product early and often, and we are able to get a glimpse at the platform's future direction. I would argue that most business environments can pass on CTPs. If your business centers around providing technology solutions for others, CTPs help you keep your ear to the ground on upcoming trends and can be used for strategic planning.

    Tuesday, March 24, 2009 10:33 PM
  • Hi Tdk99, I've just attended this Overview of Visual Studio 10 and the .NET Framework 4.0 webcast and the showed a slide saying that Silverlight, .Net 4.0 and VS2010 would be out this year Big Smile it was a public webcast too not under NDA.

    Wednesday, March 25, 2009 3:58 PM
  • I'd have no problem if more definitive release dates were released with the previews. MS can release heaps of information about it, tutorials, videos, overviews, etc, etc but they don't know when they expect to release it? Give me a break.

    Without such dates it makes it hard for businesses to know whether its something we can commit too. If I take a gamble and start using this stuff for a project, it might get released early, in which case great. If its later than I hope, then that means a period of time where I have to try to hold things together until it is released and I can start making money on it. MS going to financially support me while I wait for the release? And what do MS get out of it? They potentially stop me from using a competitor's product. If I know the MS product will be released date x, I can make a decision whether to wait or to go ahead and use the competitor's product. If I don't have a date then it makes the whole thing wishy washy. Do I or don't I? Surely it can't be that long until release...maybe....

     

    Hi tdk99;

    If it makes you feel any better, I'm in the same boat as you are. I, don't get a weekly paycheck (not even bi-weeky or monthly or yearly Smile), and that's probably why I'm broke. The only way I can get any income, as a consultant, is to deliver a solution that works today for a client. They don't pay me on making promises, and if I do and don't deliver, I'll be standing in front of a judge (and thank God, that hasn't happened (yet)).

    I've been betting on SL since it was WPF/E and so far I have not given up (yet) that someday, SL would be a great platform. Due to this faith (I hope I 'm right) I have been very enthusiatics about SL and in partucular in Ria Services (AKA Alex). I'm honored to be part of a small circle who has close relation with Ria Service team. For the past months I've watched them progress, but I would certainly don't want to be in their shoes. They've got a huge task in front of them and I'm very confident the team is up to it. Knowing that, it gives me hope and patience to stick around and offer what I can offer to make it better.

    But at the end of the day, I need to pay the bills and survive, and that's why I need to also look at alternatives to deliver app. I won't go as far as calling a third party a competition to MS, since these are all MS partners who compliment MS product, but since I feel your pain and frustration, I suggest to look at some other third parties that you can deliver app today and move on until MS will have it's product.

    This was my humble way of putting it and hope it helps!

    p.s. You may want to read this post that Bart started:

     

    Wednesday, March 25, 2009 5:15 PM
  • I have been watching this thread on the sidelines to get a pulse of what (active) community members would like. We hear you about needing predictable dates, we hear you about wanting a go-live license and we hear you about wanting API stability. We really do appreciate your passion, feedback and time and realize that this is over and above your day job that pays bills. And certainly I can sense the strong emotions about firm dates and making decisions accordingly.

    Here is more transparency about what we are trying to figure out as a team:

    1. What is the tradeoff between removing go-live restrictions and sending a message that the API is stable and then having to change it. Is it worth the early go-live if there are API changes that are not anticipated today? It is a delicate balance. The same folks who would like us to lift the restriction may be facing additional costs, disruptions.
    2. What are the features and interop/alignment stories with related technologies that we need to have covered before we can declare that we have a good V1 (RTW). How does that play with other related schedules for Silverlight, .NET framework, Visual Studio etc. Every so often there are posts about how feature x is essential for V1. We take these quite seriously and evaluate it against planned features.
    3. What is the sequence of feature-CTP combinations that will help us get the best feedback before we lock down V1.
    4. How do we use limited resources to pay for enormous work required to turn a preview into a product - perf, stress, security, globalization/localization, API reviews, compliance, additional docs/samples/... while actually responding to feedback about features

    None of us claims to know the magic about what is the right feature set or a future-proof API. In absence of a crystal ball, we are simply collecting data, vetting it broadly e.g. on forums, and deeply e.g. in email conversations with those who are passionate about a particular feature/scenario/... From past experience, a successful API tends to have long life - well over a decade and significant costs - not just for Microsoft but for customers - many who are not involved in early feedback programs like this forum. That is why we are deliberate (and slow for some of you) about the planning process. Normally dates for a big release like Visual Studio or .NET Framework are decided through a similar process and then components simply follow the dates. Here, we are looking at a separate RTW with all attendant freedom and responsibility.

    Enough about general process. Here is where we are at. We hope to finalize a plan in the coming weeks for a set of CTPs leading up to V1 RTW. We will get it out to you in some suitable form (TBD).

    Meanwhile, thanks again for sharing your feedback. Please keep it flowing.

    Dinesh

    Wednesday, April 22, 2009 1:18 PM
  • Thanks, Dinesh for taking the time to respond so thoroughly. I think we all understand your position, and you seem to understand ours as well. .Net RIA Services is an important release for sure. I personally do not mind too many API changes; I've never totally gone crazy from a CTP to an RTW. Maybe I don't hang out at the edge cases enough <g>.

    Wednesday, April 22, 2009 1:45 PM
  • I much prefer a go live license sooner rather than later. Load it up with all the caveats you want about breaking API's in future releases. If there is the prospect of a go live license relatively soon I can use this to build my latest project and thus provide more feedback because I'll be using it full time. I understand the tradeoffs, but I'd rather be given the opportunity to buy the gun even if I can shoot my foot off with it (or worse), then it's my choice.

    Wednesday, April 22, 2009 3:33 PM
  • Thanks Bob and Buck. We are considering dropping go-live restrictions in EULA for the RIA Services CTP accompanying Silverlight 3 RTM. What we are working on are:

    1. Getting "planned" breaking changes in (of course changes we haven't anticipated will happen later so there will be no compat guarantees)
    2. Working out the right "quality gates" in various areas I mentioned - a tradeoff between being agile with features vs locking down early to minimize churn
    3. Getting a few key features in
    4. Creating a good roadmap beyond the Silverlight 3 RTM to RIA Services V1 so developers have a general sense of what to expect

    As we wrap this up, I will post more info

    Thanks.

    Wednesday, April 22, 2009 4:04 PM
  • Thanks for the transparency Dinesh.

    I think the approach your aiming for is about right. With a Go-Live licence projects/products may be given the go ahead to at least start, knowing that there may be some work to move to RTW. A vague anticipated quarter release date will help too (I know, easier said than done), although the CTP roadmap may well be enough.

    Friday, April 24, 2009 4:20 AM
  • When you give us an update can you also tell us what is happening with Inheritance? Nobody from Microsoft has said a thing about inheritance support since January and I would really like to know what is going on.

    Tuesday, April 28, 2009 2:13 PM
  • Sorry, It looks like I missed the inheritance thread. I have replied there since there is more context there for inheritance discussion.

    Dinesh

    Thursday, April 30, 2009 2:11 AM
  • Any update on the expected release/production ready date for RIA services? Thanks Kyle
    Friday, September 18, 2009 1:31 PM
  • There has been no change. We know that they have reached code complete for the PDC version of RIA Services which means they are just fixing bugs but beyond that, as was stated yesterday at Firestarter, MS doesn't discuss what hasn't been announced.

    Friday, September 18, 2009 1:39 PM
  • Is there any update on the release date of the RIA services?

    Tuesday, November 10, 2009 7:13 PM
  • No change, beta next week, release some time next year.

    Tuesday, November 10, 2009 7:50 PM
  • Good news!

    I am looking forward to the beta version.

    Thank you.

    --

    Didier

    Tuesday, November 10, 2009 8:26 PM
  • It is very misleading to be exposed to heaps of info on the net about RIA Services, this being put forward as 'the' paradigm for Enterprise apps with Silverlight, and then to discover (some months down the track) that this technology has not yet reached RTM. May I request that MS put more energy into putting the status of the technology upfront on all documentation. It is difficult to determine the status of RIA services - how do you go about it?
    Wednesday, November 11, 2009 2:02 AM
  • Use ADO.NET Data Services for now.  1.0 is RTM and 1.5 is in CTP2 and will be released soon (this year or beginning of next).  It allows you to do ORM/LINQ no plumbing code with Entity Framework and works really well.

    Doesn't have all the RIA Services jazz, but it is a lot better than rolling manual WCF especially if you have a lot of update, delete, insert type logic.  It has full support in Silverlight.  Advanced features like batching calls, interceptors, setting http headers all works fine.

    Wednesday, November 11, 2009 2:21 AM
  • @Jean-Pierre

    The following clearly state that .NET RIA Services July 2009 Preview is a preview:

    1. The cover page of the overview doc (there is only one)
    2. The download page from where you get the binaries
    3. The splash screen when you install the preview
    4. The folder name in Start menu
    5. The title of the sticky announcement on this very forum about July preview
    6. My own posts in this forum that state that we are planing a beta at PDC

    If you go to any of these resources and look at the titles, it mentions _preview_, not V1 release. I am not sure what sources you are using to get information about the component. I am sorry if a few enthusiastic bloggers / posters assume that context and then write on. I would be happy to point out to them (or correct if myself if it is my post) that RIA Services is not as of today in beta, much less V1.

    Thanks.

    Dinesh

    Wednesday, November 11, 2009 12:27 PM
  • Dinesh,

     I appreciate that there is the word "Preview" on the document.  However, if it were to say "CTP" or "Preview:  WARNING, this software is still under development", it would have been a lot safer.

    Browsing for the past 6 weeks, looking at blogs, and the Microsoft silverlight sites, it is VERY misleading getting into RIA Services.  For an example of a site where things are not clear, have a look at http://silverlight.net/getstarted/ where it suggests you "get started" by downloading RIA Services.  Nowhere does it sate that this is preview software, and perhaps the RIA services have no place in a "getting started" website.

    Thursday, November 12, 2009 12:31 AM
  • Can one can do n-tier apps using ADO.NET Data Services i.e. clear separation of concerns between Presentation/Business/DAL?

    Looking at ADO.NET Data Services / ADO.NET Entity Framework the walkthroughs do not show n-tier architecture, but rather a lot of query logic in the UI (and a lot of code to do this). 

    Otherwise, my research shows that it is code-heavy and complex to write a Business Service along with Data transfer Objects which are consumed by the client, along with DataBinding to controls with change tracking.  I am not happy writing query statements in the UI, as expressed in the ADO.NET Data Services Walkthrough

    I will investigate further.

     

    Thursday, November 12, 2009 1:38 AM
  • I completely do not understand what you are saying.  No offense, it sounds like you just came back from reading "best practice guide" on some blog.

    With ADO.NET Data Services you can create an n-tier application. Your DAL is your EF ORM layer.  The ADO.NET service with accompanying BLL(s) is your BLL layer.

    You specify queries as being bad on the Silverlight client.  That is the beauty of ADO.NET Data Services.  What you prefer?  Custom building a string to call a RESTful service for a transactional database?  doing something like this:

    var someName = from n in SomeContext.Names

    where n.State = 'PA'

    select n

    ...is really nice.  Architecturally it allows you to do querying/filtering/binding two way automatically on the client.

    You specify lot of code multiple times.  To me writing custom binding logic, custom query builders or URL builders is "plumbing code" I do not want to write.

    BTW...The RTM version of .NET RIA Services is going to be powered by ADO.NET Data Services.  It is going to follow the same principles.

    Thursday, November 12, 2009 11:19 AM
  • BTW...The RTM version of .NET RIA Services is going to be powered by ADO.NET Data Services.  It is going to follow the same principles.

    Just because we are so close, I am going to edit that so that people don't get confused next week:

    The RTM version of RIA Services CAN use ADO.NET Data Services.

    Thursday, November 12, 2009 11:56 AM
  •  Good call Colin, I was about to post the same thing!

    Thursday, November 12, 2009 1:31 PM
  • Colin,

    When you say CAN...is there reasons why you wouldn't want to do this? 

    From what I heard the guys at .NET RIA Services started writing this LOB logic and then found out "oops we already are doing that with ADO.NET Data Services/WCF".

    Thursday, November 12, 2009 2:17 PM
  • When he says CAN he was correcting the prior statement that said it WILL use Astoria. Yes there is some overlap between the Astoria and the Domain Service portion of RIA Services, however there is a lot more that RIA services provide above and beyond Vanilla Astoria. 

    Colin,

    When you say CAN...is there reasons why you wouldn't want to do this? 

    From what I heard the guys at .NET RIA Services started writing this LOB logic and then found out "oops we already are doing that with ADO.NET Data Services/WCF".

    Thursday, November 12, 2009 2:31 PM
  • When he says CAN he was correcting the prior statement that said it WILL use Astoria. Yes there is some overlap between the Astoria and the Domain Service portion of RIA Services, however there is a lot more that RIA services provide above and beyond Vanilla Astoria. 

    That isn't what I meant, I choose my language very carefully.

    Colin,

    When you say CAN...is there reasons why you wouldn't want to do this? 

    [vorlon]Yes[/vorlon]

    From what I heard the guys at .NET RIA Services started writing this LOB logic and then found out "oops we already are doing that with ADO.NET Data Services/WCF".

    Not exactly, AFAIK RIA Services predates the ADO.NET Data Services client for Silverlight. What they did do is get rid of the proprietey HTTPHandler (which was never meant to be permament) that the CTP version of RIA Services was using.

    Thursday, November 12, 2009 3:22 PM
  • Colin,

    RIA Services can predate the Silverlight client, but it doesn't pre-date ADO.NET/WCF and the patterns associated with it.  Someone from MS told me that WCF is the core platform for calling anything remotely (services) and that was the strategy internally at MS.  This makes sense that they would take RIA Services and put in under the ADO.NET umbrella, which is under WCF etc.

    I am not an insider..I am just repeating what I heard.

     

    Thursday, November 12, 2009 3:41 PM
  • Dinesh,

     I appreciate that there is the word "Preview" on the document.  However, if it were to say "CTP" or "Preview:  WARNING, this software is still under development", it would have been a lot safer.

    Browsing for the past 6 weeks, looking at blogs, and the Microsoft silverlight sites, it is VERY misleading getting into RIA Services.  For an example of a site where things are not clear, have a look at http://silverlight.net/getstarted/ where it suggests you "get started" by downloading RIA Services.  Nowhere does it sate that this is preview software, and perhaps the RIA services have no place in a "getting started" website.

    I agree with Jean.  I was under the impression that it was already released.  A clear warning would be helpful for the developers and businesses, whether to really "Get Started" now or not!

    Tuesday, November 17, 2009 1:11 PM