16 septembrie 2011 16:03
- Tip modificat Matt SmallMicrosoft Employee, Moderator 19 septembrie 2011 18:56 Not a specific technical question.
16 septembrie 2011 16:22
The plan is quite clear, to sell it :)
Back from joking, what controls are you missing in particular?
16 septembrie 2011 18:29Moderator
Hi benaw, did you have a particular question that we can address?
16 septembrie 2011 19:22
Day 1. A data grid, users of rich ui applications expect to be able to see and interact with tabular data, orders, prices etc sorting grouping virtualizing. If I was to build a Metro app I would not want to wait for until there is a solid version of something that is a customer excepted delivery feature today.
(My experience has been the old WPF GridView was poor, the WPF toolkit version had a crucial event missing and the Silverlight toolkit version good except when theming & has been around for a while)
If you think about data it is pretty important and there are many other data related UI controls that could be included as native but appear not.
2011 now so what is plan?
16 septembrie 2011 19:34Moderator
It sounds like you have an app that presents large amounts of data to the user and you want to closely control how this is presented. The goal in the metro style is to make apps have a richer and more user firendly experience, but not all application types are perfectly suited to be Metro Style apps. For instance, Excel is likely to remain a Windows desktop application. For this reason, you may find some limitations in the framework.
16 septembrie 2011 20:27
Not really imagine an application which displays results of train times, a flight search, orders placed, prices from suppliers of a good, pretty normal rich data application. Perhaps they want to see this tabular data sort by departure time or price and location. Let’s say bank transactions, there is a Metro style app for banking, code sample here, in the End-to-end examples and white papers, which indicates some people think differently.
All data input needs some validation framework and some visual way of communicating this.
When you say "more" what is the reference point, what does this mean?
16 septembrie 2011 20:51Moderator
I'm not sure I understand the purpose of your question. The forums are for technical assistance. Do you have a particular technical question that we can help you answer?
16 septembrie 2011 20:58
i think ms would like to hear our opinion? I want also make an app which has a grid so the user can sort, arrange etc. his data.
I don't want to show too much data but i want to play with it.
16 septembrie 2011 22:07
To understand a very new to me OS and application framework and provide helpful feedback, I hope.
In this area of rich data apps, the controls look to me at least, limited at this point. I understand this is a technical preview stage and it would be helpful to gauge what is being planned and the scope of functionality in the current set should I be unaware.
This is the UI Design for Metro app forum after all and this is seriously relevant.
It would be helpful to know what is planned:
1. Is the scope fixed now for the controls in the WinRT or is this a start sample?
2. Do any of the controls themselves provide a visual cue to data validation on input?
3. Will there be DataGrid control at all to display tabular data?
4. Is there plan for toolkit of none native controls that are built on the primitive types?
17 septembrie 2011 13:08It appears there will be fertile ground for custom control authors.
18 septembrie 2011 14:09
First a regret to be in bold but this is the only way to pop the keyboard on a windows phone.
Now I have the same request as many other. Where are we heading for data manipulation on the metro style ? As mentione, I would expect a data grid like silverlight telerik one.
18 septembrie 2011 14:13
Here i did click italic to pop the keyboard.
I was wondering if the Metro style is just for rss feeds, weather, pictures and a bunch of other limited app ? I don't want to be negative here but just asking if there will have more later ?
18 septembrie 2011 20:41You can style your data in various ways using XAML and DataTemplates, ItemPanels, ItemContainerStyles, etc together with powerful databinding. It will certainly take some time to create the right UI but the result will pay off in the end compared to the traditional WPF/WinForms gridview.
19 septembrie 2011 15:28Moderator
Microsoft is actively watching these forums and listening to customer feedback for Windows 8. We do like to see how customers / developers are using the products and APIs and if there are areas where we can make our controls / API's more useful.
If you do have a suggestion or "wish", please be as specific as possible. We appreciate your feedback.
19 septembrie 2011 16:59
A way to represent tabular data with grouping, column sorting and paging that was fast and fluid, themed for the metro ui but optimized for touch too would be very very useful.
Perhaps something based on the SL DataGrid but optimized for a touch environment. I see there are already some good new UI interaction concepts implemented for visualizing grouped data in metro apps. Could this be built upon as an idea.
19 septembrie 2011 23:30
I get an awful sense of Deja Vu! Yet another UI framework from Microsoft, with lots of flashy demos, but how many revisions of Metro/WinRT will be needed before it includes a decent set of controls for building business apps ? (WPF/Silverlight - need I say more?). That's assuming such apps even belong in Metro-world. And please don't say we are going to have to rely on 3rd party control vendors for basic functionality. Here's hoping we get a decent set of controls out of the box before Metro-style gets abandoned in favour of the next next UI framework in Windows 12.
22 septembrie 2011 14:26You're right Andrew. Microsoft is playing the same old broken record. They want fast and fluid apps and they know they aren't going to get that with rich controls. Like the first version of .Net, like WPF, like SL they provide the raw parts and leave it to you to build something out of that. It's their pattern and they seem quite content at continuing that legacy. And Dennis' initial deflection "The forums are for technical assistance." makes it quite clear they know best and are content with what they're providing. The problem with this approach is that it doesn't meet real world requirements and in the end causing application development to be too costly because of how much you have to build yourself. Providing composable controls shouldn't be the end game here for Microsoft.
22 septembrie 2011 17:08@Dennis: I have to say I'm kind of concerned by how quickly you fell back to "not all app types are suited to be Metro Style apps." Metro has a great value proposition for data driven apps, be it consumer oriented or line of business. If you guys are reimagining Windows and the user experience, shouldn't we as developers also be reimagining our apps and how users interact with them? The goal isn't to stretch Metro beyond its intended purpose, but rather to rethink app UI in terms of the Metro design language. Sure, some things just don't lend themselves to touch and immersion, but one should be careful about jumping to that conclusion far too quickly.
23 noiembrie 2011 20:07
@Microsoft. No technical question but you need a datagrid solution for metro.
30 noiembrie 2011 21:13@Microsoft. Indeed. Not only a datagrid, but even a pivotviewer like in Silverlight 5. And support for binding with dynamic data. These are the only controls missing for me to start developing metro style.
5 decembrie 2011 16:16Now, this was a very poor answer... The guy is trying to "reimagine" his business app (I am doing the same) in the new context of Metro apps. It's just natural that we will want to have apps that actually get some work done (other than seeing tweets or the weather) on ARM tablets running Win8. We would like to know of specific controls that would help us doing that.
6 decembrie 2011 19:33Moderator
For presenting date the Listview would be the way to go. You can configure this as a grid to present data. Then you can use the context zoom to drill into information you want. These are great discussions of these controls and will get you started using them:
Jeff Sanders (MSFT)
3 martie 2012 21:42
Oddly this is the same mistake that was made in rolling out wpf. There too there was initially no datagrid, and one had to customize other controls, until a year or two later a datagrid was added. One wouldn't expect metro/winrt to have usable tools for line-of-business apps until a few years have passed but it would be good to see that a good toolset was being planned.
- Editat de TechVsLife2 3 martie 2012 21:43
8 martie 2012 21:37
Particular techinical question:
Someone mentioned the ItemsPanel, the ItemsContainerStyle, but looking at the API documentation on the site the tag examples are literally like <ItemsPanel>oneOrMoreItemsHere</ItemsPanel> which isn't helpful at all!
The feeling I was getting from the tone of responses in this thread was basically "why would you ever need to display data in a table???" like we're asking some insane question... The technical quesiton I asked above could be easily inferred by any of the other responses.
15 martie 2012 08:00
Surely you are not seriously suggesting that for working with tabular data, which is a prerequisite for huge numbers of applications, we have to reinvent in-memory structures that work like the datatable in ADO.NET? Forget the physical database connectivity part of ADO.NET for a moment, because it's clear that data can be transferred from A to B using services and XML, and just focus on the disconnected stuff - namely, what happens after raw data becomes available to the app. To do any kind of tabular-oriented interaction you need the concept of a dynamic, row-oriented container to which your UI components bind. To exclude the datatable from WinRT, would seem to leave a huge number of developers with no migration path to WinRT at all. I cannot think a hole of this size is deliberate, so many developers must have missed something and clearly need to be pointed in the right direction. So please, tell us how working with tabular data is done in WinRT apps.
16 martie 2012 14:12
Particular techinical question:
Someone mentioned the ItemsPanel, the ItemsContainerStyle, but looking at the API documentation on the site the tag examples are literally like <ItemsPanel>oneOrMoreItemsHere</ItemsPanel> which isn't helpful at all
There are probably several ways to approach this, and I haven't really kicked templates and styles in Metro enough to give you any useful advice, but my first (WPF) thought is to create a style for your ItemsControl and replace the template with a Grid or a custom class that derives from Grid. So you'd have something like
<Grid> ... </Grid>
You can use the ItemsPresenter classes to display the actual bound content, but you're almost certainly going to have to do a lot of fiddling in code to figure out how many columns you need, and to allow them to be re-sized or change the sort order, because there isn't any intrinsic support for that kind of thing in Metro.
Rebecca M. Riordan
28 martie 2012 08:41
Hi to all,
I try to summarize my expectations/needs for Metro.
I have tons of Desktop applications (several WinFoms) working with SqlServer and/or WebServices.
My customers want to use them on Win8 Arm tablet (because Win8 intel tablets seem to be more more expensive and need largest batteries).
I'd like to:
- write new business apps in Metro in few hours compared to WPF/Windows Forms apps (there is a crysis in the World and customers want to pay less for applications then years ago)
- Convert some Desktop Applications (also WinForms) to Metro with small effort (there is a crysis in the world ...)
- run Metro/Destop applications (also WinForms) on ARM based tablets as well as on Intel tablets
I think that Microsoft will gain several market shares with these 3 functionalities.
Are you agree?
Dott. Ing. Gianluca Pezzoli
29 aprilie 2012 16:11
i have never seen one on market which make more thans basic table like support. We want an developer framework from Microsoft.
Otherwise we can go to different platforms.
Does Microsoft understand this. It´s hard to see that all good things from WPF/Silverlight are not in WinRT.
At this moment WinRT is an Alpha Framework.
30 iulie 2012 19:08
I was working on a Windows 8 Data Grid:
(download library and compile it)
The Data Grid is still in beta, not feature complete and maybe unstable...