Microsoft Developer Network >
Página Inicial dos Fóruns
>
Microsoft ESP Platform Development
>
What Should We Do Next
What Should We Do Next
- Hey Guys,
As we get passed the shocking reality that this project has been canceled I would like to make a couple comments and propose a few questions.
Comments / thoughts:
(1) I have clients that invested heavily into developing on top of the ESP simulation platform. Moving over to x-plane at this phase of development is not financially feasible. Eventually we will be transiting over to X-Plane as new projects come along but we are forced to continue using ESP.
(2) I'm concerned that along with closure of the Aces Studio this forum and ESP web site will be shut down soon!
Questions:
(1) Would anyone be interested in a collaborative effort to create a new home for the ESP development community?
(2) Are there many in a similar situation my company is?
If there are enough of us actively developing with ESP then it may be a good idea to create an environment or home that we can control ourselves.
Looking forward to your thoughts.
Christian
Todas as Respostas
- There is already a Facebook ESP User group.
http://www.facebook.com/home.php#/group.php?gid=46140977758
Not convinced it is the best way to communicate, especailly as there seems little communication going on within the Group ( or even the more popular Facebook "100.000 Microsoft Flight Simulator Fans")
http://www.facebook.com/home.php#/group.php?gid=59637588200
Maybe I am an "old dog that cannot be taught new tricks", but to me, a decent Newgroup seems to get the job done better.
see also:-
The Microsoft 1400 :
http://www.facebook.com/home.php#/group.php?gid=46047347477and
FSDeveloper http://www.facebook.com/home.php#/group.php?gid=20184001306
Geoff_D Hi Christian,
I would assume that Microsoft has no reason to shut down this forum. The cost to them is immaterial and ESP will exist as an obsolete product for five years more. I would also assume that if they decided to kick us out they would give us a couple of weeks notice to find another place to hang out.
We may want to wait and see what Microsoft’s “commitment to flying games” is. The choice of words is ominous but we don’t know what’s going to happen yet.
Personally, I believe simulation is one of the most promising technologies in the next 20 years. It promotes a way of thinking which is much closer to our way of thinking than the typical desktop, web or client/server application. 30 years ago IBM owned the software application space. They had those green alphanumeric displays running applications which were mind-numbingly boring. We are progressing towards an application space which will be packed with rich, intense, highly visual applications. I believe Microsoft wants to dominate that space. From that angle it doesn’t make any sense for them to let the ACES team’s efforts go to waste.
But we have to wait like a chess player waits for his opponent to make his move. Once we know for certain the level of Microsoft's commitment to simulation we can decide what to do. In the meantime, does X-Plane have anything similar to ESP? I haven’t been able to find a website for it.
Thanks, Bill
- Hi,
As said this forum might very well remain active. Else there is always the option to ask ESP questions at the FSDeveloper forum. I have already made a special ESP related forum there and that will remain in place.
Arno - Hey Guys,
Even though ESP is getting the axe, FSX is still going to be supported by Microsoft right? From their various announcements, I gathered that FSX is still going to be sold and supported, so any development projects that were revolving around ESP could still be carried out using FSX. Was there any specific features that were avaiable in ESP that were not in FSX?
- Mike
- Hi,
Yes, they say FSX will still be sold. But the catch is that FSX was never supported. That is one of the main differences between FSX as a game and ESP as a professional product. For FSX there is no official support to develop things for it, you have the SDK and that is what you can use.
Arno - [quote]so any development projects that were revolving around ESP could still be carried out using FSX[/quote]
Technically yes, legally.. maybe. Remember that half the point of ESP was to provide a commercially licensable system. FS is supposed to be for "non-commercial" use only.
However... the FSX EULA actually states that FSX can only be used for non-commercial purposes "except where sold with development tools" (or very similar wording), which to my mind is the SDK that comes with FSX Deluxe. About a year prior to ESP's announcement, I actually emailed MS and asked if I could use FSX for a commercial military/industrial project and MS UK contacted MS US and got back to me saying yes, I could. (I kept that email to cover my butt.)
Si
- I wouldn't be so quick to rush over to X-Plane as an alternative system either... It has too many limitations on the system to be a viable option... I'd recommend waiting for the dust to settle and see what other new things might come to light in the next 12 months or so...
- Vega Prime by Presagis ( http://www.presagis.com/products/visualization/details/vegaprime/ ) has long been a standard in the military flight sim/visualization area, anyway, and could be an alternative for some. It's pricey for small developers though, I believe the SDK is $10K or $20K and don't remember the run-time license cost but it's probably more than ESP. It's pretty robust though and has third-party support and a number of tools.
- I think you'll find that when you add up all the costs of everything you'd need to get a VegaPrime solution going, you're approaching the $100k mark. not only do you need to buy licences for the engine, but the creation tools and content that you'd need. FSX and ESP include the entire planet as default at low cost due to high volume licencing agreements negotiated by MS. To licence that data yourself you likely cost you well into 6 or 7 figures.
VegaPrime is very much a platform rather than a simulation. You'd need to develop flight models, engine models, comms models, terrain, terrain imagery, nav data bases, airports, etc. It's just that kind of scope and expense that ESP was supposed to undercut. For what it is, ESP was the absolute bargain of a lifetime in the world of visualisation and simulation. (But I guess now that it's true when they say that if something appears too good to be true...)
I've been doing a lot of X-Plane exploratory work since MS stiffed us the big one, and I don't think it's as bad as I initially feared. Whilst its user interface is god awful and the development tools cumbersome, it does appear to offer a lot of flexibility. The plug-in SDK is easy reading for anyone familiar with the ESP SimConnect SDK and the gauge and panel design is straight forward once you make it past the early Eureka moments.
The biggest shortcomings of X-Plane in my opinion is the documentation. There's no really easily intro into development other than the x-plane.org forums and you'll get "not answering you, do a search" 10 times for every useful answer to questions asked. It's not a particularly friendly community to the newbie, but once you've put a bit of effort in and got past the "RTFM" stage, it becomes easier.
X-Plane has a lot going for it as a visualisation platform. It connects easily to external software, tools, multiplayer environments, etc. and has built in .mov recording. As a competitor to FSX, it suffers more due to the obscurity of the interface, poor documentation, lack of AI traffic and decent ATC, etc. But at least it's being continuously improved and Austin is very amenable to new ideas and you've got more chance of the feature you need being implemented quickly than you ever had with MS.
Si - If I did not read the press or this forum for that matter, I would have no idea about the demise of Aces, ESP or the FSX team. If you go to the ESP website there are no clues there either. It is as if everything is just fine....
The problem is, potential customers come and ask about ESP and I reveal the awkward truth. But they cannot themselves confirm this to be true as you can still go to the website, buy a licence etc. We are in a kind of no-mans land here.
If ESP is going to live on in any form, we need to know how long the licences will remain available for starters, and what happens beyond that. I currenlty can't advise any of my customers to use ESP at all and it is an embarassment that I advised any of them to do so in the first place!
What about the possibility that Microsoft might sell ESP off. That would be a good outcome and if they release the source even better!
I think we deserve some kind of official stance on the future of ESP!! Come on Microsoft, put us out of our misery!
Regards, Jon - Hey Jon,
We have announced that licenses will remain available for purchase through Dec 31st 2009 for the volume license program, and through Feb, 2010 for the single license web purchase option.
Beyond that, I imagine we'll be making additional announcements by the end of June (since that's when the shutdown period is supposed to end, beyond that, there won't be anyone to write or release the announcements :-> ). Unfortunately, when lawyers are involved, it takes a while to get to the point where announcements can be made :-<
All I can say is we hear ya, we feel the same way, and we're looking into possible solutions.
Tim
http://beatlesblog.spaces.live.com/ - The end of June is coming...something new?
- At the moment, I'm mostly hoping the end of June date was a soft target (well, no one has asked for my badge yet anyway :-> ). Lawyers are still involved, so not quite ready for any announcements yet.
Tim
http://beatlesblog.spaces.live.com/ - Ok thanks for the update Tim.
Tim,
We have a number of ESP license questions. Are you still with the MSFT? Who can we speak to?
Thanks!
Christian
www.freedomworks.ca
