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With DWT can I make the whole template editable?

    Question

  • I am starting a new website for a client and I want to save the index page I have created as a DWT because this client wants to update the website himself. Therefore, I do not want to restrict any region from being editable, can I do that?.
    Wednesday, January 19, 2011 11:46 PM

Answers

  • What I was asking was why use a  DWT for a page that could be changed in all regions.  You described needing a DWT for pages that have uneditable regions.  Two different cases.  Changes made in a DWT in an editable region do not update other pages made from that DWT, so your purpose would be lost if you had a DWT with no uneditable regions.
    • Marked as answer by Niagara Mouse Thursday, January 20, 2011 9:02 PM
    Thursday, January 20, 2011 12:49 AM

All replies

  • What would be the point of a DWT in that case?
    Wednesday, January 19, 2011 11:52 PM
  • Thanks for your question, I want to use it to create each new page and if along the way, as I build this site, I need to make a change to something that is on each page, then it will update automatically.

    In the past, I have just used the index page and 'saved as' a new page (and on an on to build the site) but then when I wanted to change or add something I had to go to each page individually to update it.

    After the website is completed and published, the client wants to be able to edit anything and not be restricted by editable regions.

     

    Thursday, January 20, 2011 12:06 AM
  • You could but then there is no reason to use a DWT in the first place. Typically content areas are editable but masthead, footer and menus usually are not.

    You might find something like http://contentseed.com a better option for clients to use in updating their web page.


    MS MVP Expression Tutorials & Help http://by-expression.com & Expression Web forums
    Thursday, January 20, 2011 12:07 AM
  • Well you could show him how to use Expression ---



    ClarkNK, A.K.A. HomePage Doctor
    HomePageDoctor.com -- Expression Web database tutorials
    Ownertrades.com -- Created with FP, Access, Bots and Wizards
    LawOfAllTheLand.org -- Created with Expression, VWDExress, SQL Express, and ASP.NET.
    Arvixe -- My favored web host
    Thursday, January 20, 2011 12:10 AM
  • You could but then there is no reason to use a DWT in the first place. Typically content areas are editable but masthead, footer and menus usually are not.

    You might find something like http://contentseed.com a better option for clients to use in updating their web page.


    MS MVP Expression Tutorials & Help http://by-expression.com & Expression Web forums


    Actually, I told him he could use Adobe Contribute, which is quite powerful for the price. I have have used Contribute it to make simple updates to clients websites. Unfortunately, it becomes a problem if the client wants to change something that is outside the editable region.

    This client has created his own website in the past, albeit in an amateurish style and using non-compliant FrontPage themes and tables. I may, after talking it over with him keep some areas protected, however, I am wondering if it is possible to do as I queried, regardless of whether it is practical or not?

    How do you create each successive page after you have started the index page?

    Sherron

     

    Thursday, January 20, 2011 12:33 AM
  • "How do you create each successive page after you have started the index page?"

    File, Save As. Give it a new name.

    If you're giving him free rein of the site, he might as well use EW. It's a lot cheaper than Contribute. So is ContentSeed, and it's easy to use (runs on PHP or ASP.NET and works through the browser, he can update from any computer).


    Eschew obfuscation.
    Thursday, January 20, 2011 12:48 AM
  • What I was asking was why use a  DWT for a page that could be changed in all regions.  You described needing a DWT for pages that have uneditable regions.  Two different cases.  Changes made in a DWT in an editable region do not update other pages made from that DWT, so your purpose would be lost if you had a DWT with no uneditable regions.
    • Marked as answer by Niagara Mouse Thursday, January 20, 2011 9:02 PM
    Thursday, January 20, 2011 12:49 AM
  • Yeah, frankly, I don't see why you would use a DWT if not to take advantage of the enforced consistency sitewide due to non-editable header, footer, navigation, and other common areas. A DWT without non-editable regions is simply an HTML page that won't display in a browser. Well, IE will display one, if it is launched from within EW using Preview In Browser, but that's kind of a special case.

    While the "Ctrl-A, Ctrl-C, File|New, Ctrl-A, Ctrl-V" method will certainly work to create new pages based on previous pages, you lose the decided advantage of automatic updating of common areas on all pages. When a new page is added, you have to touch each page in turn to add the menu item. If the header image changes, say for a holiday or something, or the company motto or greeting changes, whatever the reason, once again you have to touch all pages to implement the change.

    With a DWT, these common areas are in the non-editable regions, and when you make the change to the DWT, EW will automatically roll out the changes to all attached pages. You gain the advantages of ease of maintenance, consistency across the site, and freedom from the errors that inevitably creep in when manually updating all pages with changes.

    Like I said, if you want to use the copy method to create new pages, fine. But, then, why bother to have a DWT at all? Je ne comprend pas...

    cheers,
    scott


    Please remember to "Mark as Answer" the responses that resolved your issue. It is common courtesy to recognize those who have helped you, and it also makes it easier for visitors to find the resolution later.
    Thursday, January 20, 2011 1:32 AM
  • I don't see what you guys don't see.

    The guy wants to use a DWT  to have a common look across his site. He also apparently wants to be able to alter that common look. Probably he should be thinking Master Page instead of DWT.

    So he needs for his client to be able to modify the Master Page, which means show him how to do that with Expression.

    I think.



    ClarkNK, A.K.A. HomePage Doctor
    HomePageDoctor.com -- Expression Web database tutorials
    Ownertrades.com -- Created with FP, Access, Bots and Wizards
    LawOfAllTheLand.org -- Created with Expression, VWDExress, SQL Express, and ASP.NET.
    Arvixe -- My favored web host
    Thursday, January 20, 2011 1:59 AM
  • I don't see what you guys don't see.

    The guy wants to use a DWT  to have a common look across his site.

    Well, you see, Clark, that's the point. A DWT with no non-editable regions is just an HTML file with the wrong extension. Only non-editable regions in a DWT are propagated to attached pages; editable regions are ignored, because those belong to the individual attached pages. It's where their unique-to-each-page content goes.

    That means that there is no common look across the site . That common look is provided by the non-editable regions in each page being locked to the DWT, and if you take that away by providing zero non-editable regions, you have no enforcement of common areas. Each page may then have a different header, footer, sidebars, navigation, you name it. ALL of the commonality in a template based site is provided by the non-editable regions. Without them, there is no common look. Get it, now?

    BTW, "the guy's" name is "Sherron," and while I suppose that could be a guy's name, I'm thinking that maybe it isn't.  ;-)

    cheers,
    scott

    P.S. I'm thinking about changing one of my Windows hosting providers. Windows has always been kind of a second-class citizen with this provider, and it's getting no better (support of leadin edge tech, lousy-a.s.s Plesk CP, etc.). Anyway, I know that you changed a while back to Arvixe. So, in the time that you've been with them, whaddya think? Had to use support, and was it easy and accessible? Any uptime or configuration issues? I read that their advertised monthly rate is the monthly rate; no need to sign up for a year or more to get it. Is true? Would you recommend them? Thanks for any info you can give me.


    Please remember to "Mark as Answer" the responses that resolved your issue. It is common courtesy to recognize those who have helped you, and it also makes it easier for visitors to find the resolution later.
    Thursday, January 20, 2011 2:21 AM
  • Given the Nigerian part Sherron could well be a guy besides I've appeared before a male judge name Sheryl and pronounced just like mine.
    MS MVP Expression Tutorials & Help http://by-expression.com & Expression Web forums
    Thursday, January 20, 2011 2:39 AM
  • Umm, I think that's "Niagara," as in purt' near Buffalo, N.Y., not Nigeria, as in, "We're holding a bazillion US Dollars just for lil' ol' you, as soon as you send us all the information we need to rob you blind."

    But, I do take your point. There's the English proclivity for naming men Evelyn, and of course, there's our own Marion Barber, and girls named Bobbie and Sam, and...

    So, yeah, seeing it in print with no other cues isn't 100% reliable. Still, if forced to make a guess (I would just try to avoid the whole mess by using "the OP;" not much chance of screwing up there, because male or female, they're still the OP ;-), I would guess that a "Sherron" was female.

    cheers,
    scott


    Please remember to "Mark as Answer" the responses that resolved your issue. It is common courtesy to recognize those who have helped you, and it also makes it easier for visitors to find the resolution later.
    Thursday, January 20, 2011 3:30 AM
  • IMHO,

    When I think of a DWT Dynamic Web Template  I immediately consider what these pages will all have in common (non-editable range) and what makes an individual page unique (editable range) if a page had all editable ranges that would mean they had nothing in common a completely unique page or everything in common (identical pages) therefore negating the need for DWT in the first place.  I would imagine that this mind set especially in a large website would result in absolute KAOS.Elements like templates are created to make the web design process more effective and efficient not to be confused with EASY a word that I really think should be removed from the web developer vocabulary. So WHY would you purposely degrade the efficiency and effectiveness of the tool? Not to be confused with complicating it.

    Just Saying,

    MIKE E

     

     


    "It's like déjà vu all over again." — Yogi Berra
    Thursday, January 20, 2011 1:21 PM
  • Ok, Sherron says:

    "I want to use it to create each new page and if along the way, as I build this site, I need to make a change to something that is on each page, then it will update automatically."

    Now -- I am speaking to Master Pages (which I think is what he needs as opposed to a DWT) specifically: When he says he wants wants to change something that is on each page, I read that as meaning he wants to change something that is on every page, i.e, something that would be on the Master Page. So if he has the ability to change the Master Page (which is why I suggested he would need to use Expression), and makes a change there, it shows up on every single page.

    "After the website is completed and published, the client wants to be able to edit anything and not be restricted by editable regions."

    How one takes that second statement may be what leads to a different interpretation.  If it means the client wants to go into a single page and change content that shows there due to the Master Page (or in his case DWT), then I agree with you. But I have been taking that sentence together with the first sentence above as meaning the client may want to change the shared content that comes from the DWT or Master Page..



    ClarkNK, A.K.A. HomePage Doctor
    HomePageDoctor.com -- Expression Web database tutorials
    Ownertrades.com -- Created with FP, Access, Bots and Wizards
    LawOfAllTheLand.org -- Created with Expression, VWDExress, SQL Express, and ASP.NET.
    Arvixe -- My favored web host
    Thursday, January 20, 2011 1:34 PM
  • But I have been taking that sentence together with the first sentence above as meaning the client may want to change the shared content that comes from the DWT or Master Page..

    Clark, that is precisely the point I'm trying to make. Here is that first sentence:

    "I want to use it to create each new page and if along the way, as I build this site, I need to make a change to something that is on each page, then it will update automatically."

    The only way that can happen is if there are non-editable regions on the page. The only way, because editable regions do not get propagated when altered on the DWT.

    Now, this is what s/he says in the second sentence:

    "After the website is completed and published, the client wants to be able to edit anything and not be restricted by editable regions."

    "... not be restricted by editable regions." I know of no other English language interpretation of that than that the client wants to be able to edit anywhere , that there are no restrictions due to non-editable regions.

    You cannot have it both ways using DWTs. You either have non-editable regions, which will automatically update and propagate out to attached pages, but cannot be edited in those pages, or you have no non-editable regions, which means that no part of the template will be propagated out to attached pages when changes are made, and in effect you have no template.

    I realize that you usually work with ASP.NET master pages, but you must understand that, while both master pages and DWTs represent a form of templating technology, they are different both in structure and in the way they work and are applied.

    What the OP is asking for is behavior which is internally inconsistent and a contradiction in terms of the way in which DWTs function. You simply cannot have both of the behaviors that s/he is wishing to have using DWTs.

    cheers,
    scott


    Please remember to "Mark as Answer" the responses that resolved your issue. It is common courtesy to recognize those who have helped you, and it also makes it easier for visitors to find the resolution later.
    Thursday, January 20, 2011 2:59 PM
  • Hey Wow, I sparked some good debate here and I want to THANK YOU ALL for your participation. First let me clear up a few misconceptions on both sides.

    First Sherron is my 'female' name, a different spelling of Sharon for pronunciation purposes sounds like 'share-in'. So a gal not a guy ;). Good for you paladyn!

    NiagaraMouse refers to the Ontario area of Niagara, so again, a good guess paladyn at Buffalo, NY with Niagara Falls, New York being just across the Niagara River from Niagara Falls, Ontario. I live and work approx. 20 minutes from the city of Niagara Falls.

    As for wanting to create a DWT to automatically update all pages, I did not know that the DWT would ONLY UPDATE non-editable regions. So that means I must discuss this with the client and perhaps just create new pages by SAVE AS.

    I thought of creating a Master page, however, never having done this before I went to the User Guide and it talked about ASP.net and that scared me off because I know zilch about ASP.net. Don't know what it is, what it does, how it affects websites and if all web hosts can handle that and don't currently have time to learn all that.

    Finally,  does Expression Web 4 come in a MAC version? and would my client be able to upgrade from a Windows version of FrontPage to a MAC version of EX Web? as he switched to a MAC computer..

     

     

     

     

    Thursday, January 20, 2011 3:29 PM
  • " thought of creating a Master page, however, never having done this before I went to the User Guide and it talked about ASP.net and that scared me off because I know zilch about ASP.net. Don't know what it is, what it does, how it affects websites and if all web hosts can handle that and don't currently have time to learn all that."

    Don't worry about that - it has exactly the same issues as using a DWT for this.  Editable and non editable areas, and only updating non editable ones.

    Thursday, January 20, 2011 3:34 PM
  • Finally,  does Expression Web 4 come in a MAC version? and would my client be able to upgrade from a Windows version of FrontPage to a MAC version of EX Web? as he switched to a MAC computer..

    Not to my knowledge. EW, since version 3, is built around ASP.NET and the WPF (Windows Presentation Foundation). AFAIK, there is no Mac OSX implementation of those technologies.

    OTOH, if your client has an Intel-based Mac, they should be able to run it through Bootcamp, or Parallels, or maybe VMWare. Not sure which, since I don't use a Mac, but one of our dual-platform users like Cheryl can probably fill you in on that.

    BTW, if the site is potentially going to grow to be very large at all, you're letting yourself in for some maintenance/update headaches, since you will have to touch every affected page individually to implement changes which apply to multiple pages.

    You can mitigate this by using includes for common areas. This has the advantage that every page that uses the include will update when it is changed, so the client can edit either the main page or the include; there are no non-editable regions.

    You do have some things to consider, however, using this approach. Design-time includes (the Page-with-a-small-page icon next to the Web-and-Chain icon on the toolbar) have the advantage of being visible in the design view. They have the disadvantage that, since they are design-side, every single page which uses the include must be republished when the include is altered.

    Server-side includes, either PHP includes or SSIs, have the advantage that, since they are integrated with the page on the server, before sending the page to the browser, when they are changed only the include file need be published. The pages which use it will have it automatically included by the server as the page is built, so they don't need to be republished.

    The disadvantage of server-side includes, of any kind, is that since they require server action to be integrated with the page, they are not visible in design view, which is a static view without server participation. This may or may not be a big issue, depending upon how much the developer depends upon design view (I do not, at all, working in code view and using Preview In Browser to check the appearance of the page).

    So, there you have it. You cannot achieve universal (i.e. page-wide) editability and easy updating of common areas using any templating technology supported by EW. You can achieve both of these goals using includes, but each of the available include methods comes with its own caveats. It's up to you to weigh the options and determine the method which is most suitable for your application. Good luck!

    cheers,
    scott


    Please remember to "Mark as Answer" the responses that resolved your issue. It is common courtesy to recognize those who have helped you, and it also makes it easier for visitors to find the resolution later.
    Thursday, January 20, 2011 4:06 PM
  • May I suggest that you read up on how DWTs work http://any-expression.com/expression-web/ebooks/expression-web-dwt-ebook.htm 

    No, Expression Web does not come in a Mac versions which is one reason I suggested using Contentseed which means the site is edited in the browser and works with Macs (I know it works in Firefox though I haven't tested in Safari).  It also provides versioing control so if the client messes up you can rollback as needed.


    MS MVP Expression Tutorials & Help http://by-expression.com & Expression Web forums
    Thursday, January 20, 2011 5:26 PM
  • I marked Kathy's response are the answer because she was the first one to answer the initial post, but many of you gave great answers. Thank you Cheryl for the link to the ebook, I have downloaded it and will look it over. Also thank you for your suggestion about Contentseed  I will have my client look into it as an option.

    You were all great, thanks again.

    Cheryl I just went to the Contentseed site and do not understand what ASP or ASP.net or PHP means. This means I have no idea which one would be required. I just create static brochure style website using EX web HTML. It seems to me that they are not mentioning HTML CSS websites.

    Thursday, January 20, 2011 9:07 PM
  • Just FWIW, you can mark multiple posts which address and answer your question as answer. Each will be highlighted in green, and will help subsequent visitors to locate the answers that you feel were of value.

    cheers,
    scott


    Please remember to "Mark as Answer" the responses that resolved your issue. It is common courtesy to recognize those who have helped you, and it also makes it easier for visitors to find the resolution later.
    Thursday, January 20, 2011 10:42 PM
  • In order to edit on the web you need server side processing to run. ASP, ASP.NET & PHP are three common server side languages and any decent commercial host will support at least one of those language. You do not have to write any server side code using Content Seed but the server does have to support one of the available server side languages.

    You would create the site in Expression Web (or some other html/css tool) and plant "seeds" in the page at the content you want the client to be able to edit. Instructions on how to do this are in the application. There is a demo version you can use on the site to see how it works.

    This is similar to how Contribute and InContext editing (the Adobe versions) work but is less expensive and licensed per web designer/developer not per website.

    May I suggest that you really need to spend some time educating yourself on how the web works if you are going to be charging people to create sites for them. I do not know what you have been using to create websites but it wasn't Dreamweaver or any other professional level web editor I've ever seen. There are too many gaps in your knowledge. I can understand not knowing how DWTs work (though they are common to Dreamweaver, Expression Web & FrontPage 2003) but how in the world can you create even static websites which presumably have contact information & forms on them somewhere without ever knowing what ASP, ASP.NET or PHP are or their role in websites.


    MS MVP Expression Tutorials & Help http://by-expression.com & Expression Web forums
    Thursday, January 20, 2011 10:53 PM
  • Test. Can't access forum with FF, no new posts in five hours. Down?

     


    Please remember to "Mark as Answer" the responses that resolved your issue. It is common courtesy to recognize those who have helped you, and it also makes it easier for visitors to find the resolution later.
    Friday, January 21, 2011 3:37 AM
  • Hmm, OK, so much for that. IE access and posting OK, ASP.NET server error in Firefox. Guess I'll just wait a while...

     


    Please remember to "Mark as Answer" the responses that resolved your issue. It is common courtesy to recognize those who have helped you, and it also makes it easier for visitors to find the resolution later.
    Friday, January 21, 2011 3:47 AM
  •  I do not know what you have been using to create websites but it wasn't Dreamweaver or any other professional level web editor I've ever seen. There are too many gaps in your knowledge. I can understand not knowing how DWTs work (though they are common to Dreamweaver, Expression Web & FrontPage 2003) but how in the world can you create even static websites which presumably have contact information & forms on them somewhere without ever knowing what ASP, ASP.NET or PHP are or their role in websites.
    MS MVP Expression Tutorials & Help http://by-expression.com & Expression Web forums

    I have been using Expression Web 4 since July 2010. You are right my knowledge is basic, but so are my websites, no forms so far, but not out of the question in the future, I learn as I go along. Have a look at http://www.southlandinginn.com. After completion I checked it out using the W3C validation tool and it is error free. I have created two other sites similar to this, for bed and breakfasts in my area and my coding is also without error. I do not take on projects that are beyond my current capabilities. My pricing is designed for small operators so I fill a niche. So if you look at that website you will see 'how in the world" I did it with my limited knowledge. I don't think I did such a bad job, what do you think? I use the tools offered by tutorials out there on the web and do it one step at a time, i.e. jQuery magnify and CSSplay's slideshow.

    This project that I am discussing is for my son-in-law who is a playwright, producer and actor and I am not charging him (except for a nice dinner out). His current website, which he created himself with FrontPage is awful (in my opinion of course), and I offered to create a more professional looking one. He wants to be able to update it and I don't want to be the one to have to do it each time. Hence my need for ContentSeed or similar.

    Your suggestion to educate myself is valid, however, at almost 63 years of age, I have no desire to immerse myself in learning the ins and outs of how the web works or to delve too deeply into ASP ASP.NET and PHP or their roles in websites. Perhaps it will become necessary, perhaps not, but when I try reading some of that 'stuff' it makes my head hurt (so to speak).

    I am spending a lot of time learning as it is. I am actually a Graphic Designer and was asked so many times if I created websites, that I decided to learn how. That is why I come to this forum (and others like it), to learn what I need to know to successfully negotiate each challenge.

    Again thanks for your help, I will keep plugging away at learning how to do all of this stuff.

    Sherron

    Friday, January 21, 2011 1:45 PM
  • Sherron you are off to a pretty good start but ---

    Your site falls apart if a visitor looks at it with larger text sizes. With Internet Explorer do View / Text Size / Largest and then see what happens.

    Your menu moves down into the tan area where it becomes unreadable.



    ClarkNK, A.K.A. HomePage Doctor
    HomePageDoctor.com -- Expression Web database tutorials
    Ownertrades.com -- Created with FP, Access, Bots and Wizards
    LawOfAllTheLand.org -- Created with Expression, VWDExress, SQL Express, and ASP.NET.
    Arvixe -- My favored web host
    Friday, January 21, 2011 2:03 PM
  • Thanks ClarkNK, so happy you pointed it out. See have to learn again. If I converted the text sizing in the navigation bar at the top from em to px would that eliminate that problem?

    I will definitely watch for that in the future.

    Friday, January 21, 2011 2:13 PM
  • Converting the text to px would "fix" it in IE, but not other browsers (IE doesn't scale px, and IE has a shrinking market share).

    BUT that's not the fix, since doing that makes the site inaccessible to people who need the text larger--aging eyes--or who have laptops with high resolution screens (that come from the factory set to show text larger).

    The real fix is to keep the site from breaking by building the site properly, not by hobbling its functionality. The W3C validator doesn't show anything about the site's design/layout validity, it just checks that open tags have matching closing tags, that you use code that matched the doctype, etc. The code may validate, but it may be used incorrectly in the context of the site.

    Oh, and the old "I'm 63" wheeze doesn't work in here. Some of the people you're dealing with in here were in high school when you were entering first grade. No excuses. You're competing with (and taking money away from) quality web designers in your region who do fine work for small and medium sized businesses. Many people in this forum target the same market. If you're charging money, you have a legal responsibility to deliver a proper product. Businesses have been sued because their sites aren't handicap accessible; if that happens, you're liable. This isn't a game; do it right or get out.


    Eschew obfuscation.
    Friday, January 21, 2011 2:36 PM
  • " If you're charging money, you have a legal responsibility to deliver a proper product."

     

    You are absolutely correct, that is why I purchased DVD tutorials on using EW to build websites. So I also paid money expecting to learn how to do it correctly. My website works properly on Firefox, Chrome and Safari using Ctrl + + everything enlarges okay.

    So instead of scolding me, tell me how to fix it for IE.

     

    Friday, January 21, 2011 3:09 PM
  • Thanks ClarkNK, so happy you pointed it out. See have to learn again. If I converted the text sizing in the navigation bar at the top from em to px would that eliminate that problem?

    I will definitely watch for that in the future.

    No, that does not fix it. Both the the header and footer break when text is resized (IE). Besides, "fixing" it by making the site inaccessible to vision-impaired users should not be your objective. If your solution involves fixing the text size so that it cannot be changed, all you are doing is making it difficxult for vision-impaired and older users with presbyopia, or anyone with a small, high-resolution screen, cannot adjust their text size to make your site usable. Bad idea, and illegal and subject to civil litigation for damages for sites in many categories.

    BTW, the problem in IE is nothing compared to Firefox. Open the site in Firefox, set View|Zoom|Zoom Text Only the way that most vision-impaired users would (to prevent horizontal scrolling), then press Ctrl-+ a few times to increase the text size. Whoa! On the very first press your layout falls completely apart. I haven't looked at the source code to see what is causing it, but I would imagine that first-time visitors to the site who browse with text size increased are not impressed.

    I checked, and the same thing is true of the River Bend House site, and on the On The Lake site your menu gradually just disappears, while somewhat ironically, your "wheelchair acessiible" text and icon overflows and overlays the text below. I stopped checking your sites at that point, since by then it had become fairly obvious that you have no clue about how to create an accessible site.

    Web design and development is not simply graphic design for the Web. You are not working in a print medium; your canvas and text can and will change size, and EW is not Illustrator or Photoshop. What you don't know can hurt you, and your clients, and whether you understand that or not, you are doing your clients a disservice, and acting both fradulently and unethically, when you represent yourself to have, and take payment for, skills that you do not have.

    Your designs aren't bad, but your implementation is faulty. As a start, remove all heights from any containers that contain text. Those heights constrain the container when text is resized, keeping it from growing vertically and causing overflow onto the container below. Then test again.

    cheers,
    scott



    Please remember to "Mark as Answer" the responses that resolved your issue. It is common courtesy to recognize those who have helped you, and it also makes it easier for visitors to find the resolution later.
    Friday, January 21, 2011 3:19 PM
  • My website works properly on Firefox, Chrome and Safari using Ctrl + + everything enlarges okay.

    No, it does not. You are testing using the zoom feature. People with vision issue, and those on small high-res screens do not do that. They increase text size only, because zooming the whole screen results in having to scroll horizontally to view it. Folks are used to and don't mind scrolling vertically as they move down a page, but no one likes playing scrollbar ping-pong, back and forth, back and forth, just to read the text on the site.

    In Firefox, use the View|Zoom|Zoom Text Only setting I told you about above. In other browsers, use whichever method resizes text only, not zoom. Using a generalized zoom reveals nothing, because everything is resized the same, including text containers. This does not happen when text only is resized.

    cheers,
    scott


    Please remember to "Mark as Answer" the responses that resolved your issue. It is common courtesy to recognize those who have helped you, and it also makes it easier for visitors to find the resolution later.
    Friday, January 21, 2011 3:27 PM
  •  "paladyn" wrote in message news:0e274d86-0972-4150-86ae-d4268d17ac00@communitybridge.codeplex.com...

    Well, you see, Clark, that's the point. A DWT with no non-editable regions is just an HTML file with the wrong >extension.*Only *non-editable regions in a DWT are propagated to attached pages; editable regions are ignored, >because those belong to the individual attached pages. It's where their unique-to-each-page content goes.

    That means that there is no common look across the site . That common look is provided by the non-editable regions >in each page being locked to the DWT, and if you take that away by providing zero non-editable regions, you have no >enforcement of common areas. Each page may then have a different header, footer, sidebars, navigation, you name >it.*ALL *of the commonality in a template based site is provided by the non-editable regions. Without them, there is >no common look. Get it, now?

    Thank you, Scott! You've explained it perfectly for me, although I'm not the one who asked the question. Gonna add this one to my 'hints and tips' for EW.

    Nancy Ward
    Windows 8 BetaFerret


    Nancy Ward
    Friday, January 21, 2011 3:48 PM
  • You definitely have accessibility issues on http://www.southlandinginn.com particularly with color contrast the red on blue when you mouse over the menu fails for normal vision for colorblind people is probably impossible.

    Use of color on the web while bearing some relationship to what you learned as a graphic designer has additional compilations due to being on a monitor. Very few people ever color calibrate their monitors Macs & PC use different color spaces primarily related to gamma settings.

    If you intend to create websites for clients you have no choice but to learn the differences in the media because the web is not print. With print you can control every aspect from the paper-coatings, texture, & weigh how it absorbs ink, type of print to pantone color every details. People don't expect contact forms a online booking with a printed brochure.

    When I search the web for a place to stay I expect to at the minimum contact the b&b by email or contact forum and preferably check availably & book online. I do not expect to have to telephone from a website. Since putting a plain text email address is a spam magnet and requires the visitor to be on a computer with an email client configured contact forms are necessary. For that you need server side processing.

    Your age doesn't excuse you from learning these basis. Many on this forum are far older than you are. How to create a website that resizes properly, which yours doesn't per Clark is not difficult (and unlike print people can always resize web pages but unless properly designed they will break when resized) is one of of the things covered in the Basic Website tutorial linked in the Before Posting sticky. You don 't have to learn the server side technologies to the point where you coater entire back-ends (just like you don't have to build a press to use one)  but you do need to learn enough to modify and use sample scripts for things like contact forums and understand how they work. In most cases this minimal amount can be learned in 6-8 hours.

    FYI, do not convert from ems to px, that's the wrong approach. Your problem comes from using position: absolute and specifying heights. Because the web is a fluid medium "layers" do not behave as they do in Photoshop and other graphics or desktop publishing application. It's those pesky medium differences.

    Spend time with those learning resources in the before posting sticky.I'm in the process of moving my serious photography from film to digital so I'm having  to really learn Photoshop and Lightroom which is a lot different in many ways than film and darkroom push, dodge & burn the I've done for over 30 years. I've used Fireworks for web graphics and my Photoshop skills have been limited. So while Photoshop has a much steeper learning curve than learning how to create brochure sites I understand the challenge. The fact that I've been using darkrooms for over 30 years and created ads for print using veloxes of those photos  ought to give you a clue as to my age.

    Finally, css/html validation does not mean the site is good  or even that it will render properly in all browsers. There are sites that are completely unusable that validate. Sites that function beautifully and work in every browser that do not validate. Validiting is useful for finding errors but not a a replacement for knowing how various property work in practice. In the case of your site position. absolute is behaving exactly as the specifications says it should which is why it doesn't scale.


    MS MVP Expression Tutorials & Help http://by-expression.com & Expression Web forums
    Friday, January 21, 2011 3:57 PM
  • " If you're charging money, you have a legal responsibility to deliver a proper product."

     You are absolutely correct, that is why I purchased DVD tutorials on using EW to build websites. So I also paid money expecting to learn how to do it correctly. My website works properly on Firefox, Chrome and Safari using Ctrl + + everything enlarges okay.

    So instead of scolding me, tell me how to fix it for IE.

    FYI,  it breaks in my copy of Firefox using ctrl+ because I have Firefox set to zoom text only. I'm a high resolution laptop (well in my case tablet pc) user. You fix it for me and others who use large fonts in their OS, something Firefox ignores hence the zoom text only setting by not using position: absolute.

    BTW, 60% of my website clients fall into your target market.


    MS MVP Expression Tutorials & Help http://by-expression.com & Expression Web forums
    Friday, January 21, 2011 4:06 PM
  • A big THANK YOU, to all of you that have taken the time to offer constructive criticism, it is much appreciated, even if some of you are stomping with your 'hob-nail' boots.

    Chery l thank you for: "You definitely have accessibility issues on http://www.southlandinginn.com particularly with color contrast the red on blue when you mouse over the menu fails for normal vision for colorblind people is probably impossible."

    It is something I did not consider but I will fix that and remember for next time.

    Cheryl you also wrote “When I search the web for a place to stay I expect to at the minimum contact the b&b by email or contact forum and preferably check availabilityy & book online. I do not expect to have to telephone from a website”.

    The contact method was determined by the owners of the inn, not me.

    And finally Cheryl: “Your age doesn't excuse you from learning these basis.”

    As mentioned before, I purchased tutorials and I am following those instructions to the letter. So how does one decide which tutorials are the best before purchasing, then something like this comes up? Many claim to be experts, few actually are.

    paladyn , thank you for " but your implementation is faulty. As a start, remove all heights from any containers that contain text. Those heights constrain the container when text is resized, keeping it from growing vertically and causing overflow onto the container below. Then test again."

    Thank you, I will try your suggestion.

    Bill Pearson – “Oh, and the old "I'm 63" wheeze doesn't work in here. Some of the people you're dealing with in here were in high school when you were entering first grade. No excuses. You're competing with (and taking money away from) quality web designers in your region who do fine work for small and medium sized businesses. Many people in this forum target the same market. If you're charging money, you have a legal responsibility to deliver a proper product. Businesses have been sued because their sites aren't handicap accessible; if that happens, you're liable. This isn't a game; do it right or get out.”

    You know what, people are competing with and taking money away from graphic designers too (that means me), but, "them's the breaks". That's how the world works. I am trying to learn to do it right. That is why I bought tutorials to learn how. That is why I come to this website and others like it to get help.

    To Everyone: I appreciate all the positive criticism you ‘guys and gals’ can give (key word positive ), but don’t brow-beat me for stepping on some web designers toes and taking away potential customers. Everyone starts somewhere. I am trying to do this right, hence, why I keeping coming back with questions.

    Friday, January 21, 2011 8:43 PM
  • In the BEFORE POSTING thread there are excellent free tutorials listed and a pointer to the many free tutorials from MS that are accessed through the Learn tab at the top of this forum.

    But more importantly, if you bought the Total Training tutorials that are sampled on the EW DVDs, be very careful. The ones that mention layers never mention the pitfalls of them. That's been a huge problem in the past, since it was the first tutorial people saw when they bought the program, and they ended up wasting a huge amount of time, having to do their work all over.


    Eschew obfuscation.
    Friday, January 21, 2011 9:07 PM
  • Bill, if you have the full set of Total Training DVDs Janine does get to the issues with absolute positioning and provides instruction on other ways to layout a site but it isn't until something like hour 6 if I recall correctly.

    Mouse, re the type of contact that a client has on the website - clients aren't the best ones to determine features of their website. I'm sure in the years you've been a graphics designer you've run into clients who have very set ideas on how their material should look that you know from experience will either be ineffective OR even counter productive. As a professional it is the web designer's job to educate their clients on why they should or should not do specific things on their website. Not having a method on their site to contact them via computer is harmful.

     I doubt that anyone here really thinks you are takign away any of their clients but are using their comments to illustrate what you don't know and need to know in this field..You aren't competition for me for a variety of reasons primarily geographic since the type of client we are talking about typically wants someone local to deal with but you do owe a duty of due care.That includes best practices and usability. A book I highly recommend that is an easy read is Steven Krug's Don't Make Me Think about usability. The Before Posting sticky has a lot of learning resources that have been reviewed by many different posters here. That's where you'd find the Basic Website tutorial, links to the DWT & other ebooks and those resources are free. Not free learning resources that are generally held to be good include http://lynda.com which has video based material in more than just Expression Web but in other technology and techiques you will need to know to be effective as a web designer. Places like Juicy Studio and webaim.org have accessibility information.

    Unfortunately for you there has been some folks who come from a print background who have been very unwilling to recognize the differences between the two mediums.  That has breed more than a little wariness about folks who come in here (and on the Dreamweaver lists I participate in) when it comes to folks who are print designers.


    MS MVP Expression Tutorials & Help http://by-expression.com & Expression Web forums
    Friday, January 21, 2011 9:39 PM
  • Mouse, re the type of contact that a client has on the website - clients aren't the best ones to determine features of their website. I'm sure in the years you've been a graphics designer you've run into clients who have very set ideas on how their material should look that you know from experience will either be ineffective OR even counter productive. As a professional it is the web designer's job to educate their clients on why they should or should not do specific things on their website. Not having a method on their site to contact them via computer is harmful.

    I know what you are saying but my hands are tied, other contact methods are just not available.

    Thank you for the the tutorial advice.

    Friday, January 21, 2011 9:56 PM
  • They need to be available and except for free ISP provided type hosing I've never seen hosting that didn't include support for some sort of server side processing. Heck even the $1 a month hosting mentioned in another thread supports PHP for forms processing.

    There are packages you can use that will install and configure form to email processor for you that are relatively inexpensive that as long as you can follow step by step instructions work fine.

    If they are on some sort of hosting that doesn't allow for forms processing there are even third party hosted forms that can be used. So there is little excuse for not using a real contact form.


    MS MVP Expression Tutorials & Help http://by-expression.com & Expression Web forums
    Friday, January 21, 2011 10:00 PM
  • They need to be available and except for free ISP provided type hosing I've never seen hosting that didn't include support for some sort of server side processing. Heck even the $1 a month hosting mentioned in another thread supports PHP for forms processing.

    There are packages you can use that will install and configure form to email processor for you that are relatively inexpensive that as long as you can follow step by step instructions work fine.

    If they are on some sort of hosting that doesn't allow for forms processing there are even third party hosted forms that can be used. So there is little excuse for not using a real contact form.


    MS MVP Expression Tutorials & Help http://by-expression.com & Expression Web forums

    Cheryl, currently any form of email is not an option.

    For everyone, I am working on accessibility on the websites I have created. However, I can find no Canadian or Provincial information on their requirements (if any even exist). So far as I can find, businesses in Ontario do not even have to be physically accessible until Jan. 2012.

     

     

    Tuesday, January 25, 2011 4:15 PM
  • For everyone, I am working on accessibility on the websites I have created. However, I can find no Canadian or Provincial information on their requirements (if any even exist). So far as I can find, businesses in Ontario do not even have to be physically accessible until Jan. 2012.

    Wrong attitude. I can assure you that vision-impaired visitors to the site(s) really don't give a damn whether it is required by law as of yet or not. If they can't use the site because it is illegible and inaccessible to them, they'll hie their butts out of there just as quickly as if the law were already in force.

    Accessibility is something you owe the visitors and your clients, not something you should do because it is required, although that definitely comes into play for commercial and government sites (in the US, anyway).

    cheers,
    scott


    Please remember to "Mark as Answer" the responses that resolved your issue. It is common courtesy to recognize those who have helped you, and it also makes it easier for visitors to find the resolution later.
    Tuesday, January 25, 2011 4:52 PM
  • http://www.w3.org/WAI/Policy/#Canada gives you a starting place for web accessiblity in Canada, I've pinged a friend from Toronto for more info.
    MS MVP Expression Tutorials & Help http://by-expression.com & Expression Web forums
    Tuesday, January 25, 2011 4:55 PM
  • For everyone, I am working on accessibility on the websites I have created. However, I can find no Canadian or Provincial information on their requirements (if any even exist). So far as I can find, businesses in Ontario do not even have to be physically accessible until Jan. 2012.

    Wrong attitude. I can assure you that vision-impaired visitors to the site(s) really don't give a damn whether it is required by law as of yet or not. If they can't use the site because it is illegible and inaccessible to them, they'll hie their butts out of there just as quickly as if the law were already in force.

    Accessibility is something you owe the visitors and your clients, not something you should do because it is required, although that definitely comes into play for commercial and government sites (in the US, anway).

    cheers,
    scott


    Please remember to "Mark as Answer" the responses that resolved your issue. It is common courtesy to recognize those who have helped you, and it also makes it easier for visitors to find the resolution later.

    I don't get it paladyn, what part of "I am working on accessibility on the websites I have created" did you not understand? How is that the wrong attitude? If I have the wrong attitude I would tell you to 'stuff it' and then I would not come back to this forum. On the contrary though, I have the right attitude and I do feel that I owe my clients the best possible website and am working to correct the situation .

    I included the portion about Canadian accessibility regulations because some responders to this forum wrote some scary stuff about potential law suits. I wanted to respond to that as it gave me concern at the time.

    Cheryl, thank you for the link, having you take the time to contact your friend is much appreciated. I had already been to that website but it is was not clear to me whether the government is talking about their own website accessibility policy or Canada's policy for everyone. I will continue to look into actual requirements while I work on bringing my sites up to acceptable standards. My images already had alternative text for readers, and it seems most of my other problems are due to heights applied or floats not cleared and positioning as you already suggested. Some of the resolutions are currently illusive but I will keep working at it and as I get them fixed I will be updating the sites and, of course, at no charge to my clients!

     

    Tuesday, January 25, 2011 7:51 PM