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How do you set the tab stop or tab length in a <pre> element?

    Question

  • Thanks.


    Greg Maxey Please visit my website at: http://gregmaxey.mvps.org/word_tips.htm
    • Edited by Greg Maxey Saturday, January 14, 2012 6:41 PM
    Saturday, January 14, 2012 6:40 PM

Answers

  • Good lord, Greg! How about you look something up yourself! What are we, your private reference service?

    Sheesh! Here you go: http://lmgtfy.com/?q=%3Cpre%3E+element

    If you check the w3.org recommendation, you'll find this:

    The ASCII Horizontal Tab (HT) character must be interpreted as the smallest positive nonzero number of spaces which will leave the number of characters so far on the line as a multiple of 8. Its use is not recommended however.

    Is that clear enough?

    cheers,
    scott
    Please remember to "Mark as Answer" the responses that resolved your issue. It is common courtesy to recognize those who have helped you, and it also makes it easier for visitors to find the resolution later.

    • Edited by paladyn Saturday, January 14, 2012 7:33 PM
    • Marked as answer by Greg Maxey Monday, January 16, 2012 1:37 PM
    Saturday, January 14, 2012 7:14 PM

All replies

  • Try applying padding using CSS
    Expression Web MVP
    Saturday, January 14, 2012 6:56 PM
  • Steve,

    What I am trying to do eliminate the hundreds of &nbsp that were in my old site to "indent" vba code.  I can put a tab in the pre but it is .5in and I wanted it to be smaller.  Thanks.


    Greg Maxey Please visit my website at: http://gregmaxey.mvps.org/word_tips.htm
    Saturday, January 14, 2012 7:13 PM
  • Good lord, Greg! How about you look something up yourself! What are we, your private reference service?

    Sheesh! Here you go: http://lmgtfy.com/?q=%3Cpre%3E+element

    If you check the w3.org recommendation, you'll find this:

    The ASCII Horizontal Tab (HT) character must be interpreted as the smallest positive nonzero number of spaces which will leave the number of characters so far on the line as a multiple of 8. Its use is not recommended however.

    Is that clear enough?

    cheers,
    scott
    Please remember to "Mark as Answer" the responses that resolved your issue. It is common courtesy to recognize those who have helped you, and it also makes it easier for visitors to find the resolution later.

    • Edited by paladyn Saturday, January 14, 2012 7:33 PM
    • Marked as answer by Greg Maxey Monday, January 16, 2012 1:37 PM
    Saturday, January 14, 2012 7:14 PM
  • Scott,

    What is the matter?  Are you off your meds today.  You're either Dr. Jekyll or Mr. Hyde. I thought I made it clear once before that if you don't want to reply  then don't.  Why is it so hard for you to ignore someone or something that annoys you?

    No you are not my private reference service and I've looked up plenty of things myself over the last few days.  If the answers to all the questions I've had here where as patently obvious as you seem to think they are then there wouldn't be much need in the forum and the palette it provides you to hurl insults.

    With a few exceptions the regulars in this forum are distinctly arrogant.  You particularily.  

     


    Greg Maxey Please visit my website at: http://gregmaxey.mvps.org/word_tips.htm
    • Edited by Greg Maxey Saturday, January 14, 2012 8:17 PM
    Saturday, January 14, 2012 8:17 PM
  • With a few exceptions the regulars in this forum are distinctly arrogant.  You particularily.

    Fine, say that if you wish. Seems to me that "the regulars in this forum" have spent significant amounts of time trying to help you. I myself have bent over backwards, investing significant time trying to help you, building entire example pages, and explaining issues in depth, and anyone reading your threads over the last week would recognize that, yourself included, if you were honest.

    I thought I made it clear once before that if you don't want to reply  then don't.

    And I thought I made it clear before that you don't get to decide who responds to your threads, or how. This is a forum, and your sole control over a thread is initiating it. You don't have to like the responses, and if you intend to keep asking this kind of question, you probably won't. I have a suspicion that I'm not the only one getting a little tired of this.

    And in case you weren't aware of it, there's a reason that "Let Me Google That For You" was created, and that I used it in my reply. See if you can figure that out on your own.


    Please remember to "Mark as Answer" the responses that resolved your issue. It is common courtesy to recognize those who have helped you, and it also makes it easier for visitors to find the resolution later.
    Sunday, January 15, 2012 1:26 AM
  • Scott,

    Do you want a medal?  I have a drawer full.  I would like to beleive that you come here to help people who are not as familiar with this product and the methods that it employs as you are.  Considering the help that you have given me, for which I feel I have thanked you adequately and repeatedly, there is a strong chance I am right.

    On the other hand you can and often do display a very condesending manner.  I've told you once that I don't appreciate it and while I certainly have benefitted from your help, that help doesn't give you the liberty to hurl flybys like "I hate to say it but somebody has too," and "Go Google it dumbxxx, duh!! at me.  That isn't exaclty what you said but you and everyone else who might read it knows your meaning despite how you might want to sugar coat why LMGTFY was created.

    I have never said or implied that you can't respond to my thread.  That is a childish accusation which I suppose makes you feel that you have the moral high ground.  I don't give a tinker's dxxx if you reply or not.  I was only repeating that if my posts or questions are so elemenary that they don't deserve your attention or so annoying as to cause you angst and exhasperation then simply ignore them.  If ... Then ... End If.  But if you would rather play If ... Then...Else "climb on your high horse and spout another lecture" End If, then knock yourself out.

    Have you lost your cheer?

     

     


    Greg Maxey Please visit my website at: http://gregmaxey.mvps.org/word_tips.htm







    • Edited by Greg Maxey Sunday, January 15, 2012 7:26 AM
    Sunday, January 15, 2012 2:09 AM
  • Greg,

    You are still thinking like you are using Word or some other word processor. The web doesn't have a "tab" character. It has padding, it has margin and it has text-indent for first lines. All of which are covered in the W3Schools material.


    Free Expression Web Tutorials
    For an Expression Web forum with without the posting issues try expressionwebforum.com
    Sunday, January 15, 2012 4:22 AM
  • Cheryl,

    No I'm not, but I don't want to get into another spat here with your or anyone else.  I'm thinking that I am using EW4. I set up the Tools>Page Editor Options>Coding Formatting>Tab Size>2 characters.  So does EW4 have a "tab" character or not?  If it does, when I press the tab key in the code window the cursor moves 2 spaces.  However the amount of space in the <pre> element where that space is supposed to be reflected in .5 inches.  The resident Phd here as already pointed provided me a reference to the <pre> element but I have not yet completely digested the related 306,000,000 links.

    I don't think that you are suggesting that I would treat 100's of lines of step intented XML or VBA code intended to display in a <pre> element individually as elements and pad, margin, or indent them are you?  I'll use spaces in the code.  It may not meet all the standards but it will work for me.

    Thank you for you help.

     

     


    Greg Maxey Please visit my website at: http://gregmaxey.mvps.org/word_tips.htm
    Sunday, January 15, 2012 5:39 AM
  • No, that tab size just sets the layout of indents in the Code Pane. It's Coding Formatting--which just formats the way the code is displayed to you as you work. It's just for personal preferences as to how you code looks--to you--like all the other options there. You are the only person who sees the code in the code pane, and it's just a nicety (like the Reformat HTML) that allows you  to set the code the way it's easier for you to read. It has nothing to do with the presentation of the HTML in the site.

    This, and all the options of the Code Formatting tab are covered in EW's Help.


    Comic Sans walks into a bar. The bartender says, "Get out! We don't serve your type."

    Sunday, January 15, 2012 6:41 AM
  • Bill,

    Thank you.  I've read that material.  When I press space bar in the code pane a space appears in the design pane.  When I am in <p></p> element in the code pane and press the tab key a tab space is entered in the code and a singe space is entered in the design.  If I press the tab key repeatedly the space in the code conitues to expand by the tab with but that single space in the design pane stays as is. I don't really know why but that isn't the question.

    When I am in a <pre></pre> element in the code pane and I press the tab key a tab width space appears in the code.  However, a full .5 tab space appears in the design pane <pre> element and that same large space appears when the page is published.  I hope to publish quite a few pages that have VBA code or XML which you probably know uses stepped indents and .5 inch is too much.

    My original question was can this width be changed?  Scott as responded in his typical gracious manner and while not answering the question has cut and pasted a recommedation that tabs be avoided in the <pre> element.

    I'll use spaces and make it work.  Thanks again.  


    Greg Maxey Please visit my website at: http://gregmaxey.mvps.org/word_tips.htm
    Sunday, January 15, 2012 7:12 AM
  • " If I press the tab key repeatedly the space in the code conitues to expand by the tab with but that single space in the design pane stays as is. I don't really know why but that isn't the question."

     To your <p> question:

    As Cheryl said, there is no such thing as a tab in your presented page.

    Multiple spaces in Code View are one space in the browser.  Doesn't matter how you put the spaces in Code View, it's one in the browser.  Now, if you intend multiple spaces, it's multiple cases of "&nbsp;" in Code View,  which is the code for displaying a space on the page that won't be merged into one (or interupted with a line break, either).  If you use the space bar in Design View, you'll see EW put that in after the first space.  But that's not the way it should be done in almost every case: you should use margin and padding.

    That explains what you are seeing inside a <p> tag, or most other tags.

    The exception is the <pre> tag.

    <pre>'s purpose is to preserve the spacing and line breaks of the text inside it.  If you put multiple spaces in it, there will be multiple spaces in the output - they won't collapse.  Ditto with tabs in Code View, but it will be tabbed to whatever your tabs stops are in Code Formatting, and the amount of space to reach the next tab stop will appear in the output.  It's not that a tab character will appear in your source code, it won't, just that that amount of space will be inserted, and not collapsed.  This works just fine.  The tab stops will be based on the number of characters you set in Code Formatting options.


    • Edited by KathyW2 Sunday, January 15, 2012 2:59 PM
    Sunday, January 15, 2012 2:57 PM
  • Kathy,

    "As Cheryl said, there is no such thing as a tab in your presented page."  I get it! A tab displaying in the resulting web page or even the source code is not and never was point or the question.  If the question was asked wrong then I certainly appologize. 

    The point of the original question, which is mute now, was how do you make the rendered displayed view of a <pre> element on the web appear so that when "tabs" are part of the "preserved spacing and line breaks of the text inside it" those tabs reflect the space of "1" character, "2" characters, "5" characters or whatever?  Perhaps now that I have something to show you, you or someone else will understand what the question was.  In the following page there is a <pre> element that is displaying some XML markup.  The "2nd" line has a tab moving <Custom UI ... /> over 1 tab space.  All the rest of the lines are spaced using multiple spaces.

    http://gmaxey.mvps.org/word_tip_pages/add_classic_form_controls.html

    The reason for the question is that you should see if I used 6 tab to position <buttton .../> then that line would be pushed out of view.  I realize that even if it is pushed out of view the content is still there, but I want my viewers to "see" the whole line of script.

    It does not matter what I have my tab set to in the Page Editor options (1 to 64 spaces) the width of the resulting space rendered in the <pre> both in design view and on the web is the same and too large.

    As I have said, Scott has already posted that the use of tabs are not recommended for <pre>.  Ok, I get that too and with the exception of the one used for illustration in the page I've not used them.

    I've looked at W3C shcool, I've read help, I know how to use Google.  What I am trying to do is present an XML script that "looks" like XML script when viewed on my webpage and "acts" like XML script when copied from my web page and pasted in a XML editor. While my methods are probably barbaric, I feel like I am there.

    Thank you.

     

     

     


    Greg Maxey Please visit my website at: http://gregmaxey.mvps.org/word_tips.htm


    • Edited by Greg Maxey Sunday, January 15, 2012 5:00 PM
    Sunday, January 15, 2012 3:56 PM
  • Greg,  I can't follow you.

    Setting tabs in Code Formatting does work.  I've tried it.  Tab inside your <pre> section, change the tab settings, save and preview your page, the spacing in the <pre> section moves accordingly.  The tabs stops are spaced x characters apart, when you set x as the tab size.

    If you've done as I said and it doesn't work for you, I can't help.

    Sunday, January 15, 2012 4:43 PM
  • Steve,

    What I am trying to do eliminate the hundreds of &nbsp that were in my old site to "indent" vba code.  I can put a tab in the pre but it is .5in and I wanted it to be smaller.  Thanks.


    Greg Maxey Please visit my website at: http://gregmaxey.mvps.org/word_tips.htm


    Greg, have you tried using a code block?
    It's in the toolbox under task panes


    Expression Web MVP
    Sunday, January 15, 2012 5:06 PM
  • Kathy,

    A more accurate statement would be it works for "you" because you've tried it.  It doesn't work for me because I have tried it.

    Apparenlty I can't follow you either or there is some other setting somewhere that is not allowing a tab (set to =  "2" characters) to display as "2" characters in the <pre> elements.

    http://gmaxey.mvps.org/word_tip_pages/add_classic_form_controls.html

    The presentation you can see in the <pre> element displayed on the page "is" a tab created by clicking inside the <pre> element and pressing the keyboard key "Tab" I have changed Tools>Page Editor Options>Code Formatting>Tab Size from 1 to 64.  It doesn't matter what setting I have there. The space displayed in the <pre> in the design screen, preview, and a published is and remains the same.

    I've back peddled and came back to this thread after stating I was done.  I don't really want to get pounded on here by Scott or anyone else over this.  As far as I am concerned, it doesn't work and the picture proves it to me.

    Thank you for your genuine efforts to be helpful.

     

     

     


    Greg Maxey Please visit my website at: http://gregmaxey.mvps.org/word_tips.htm
    • Edited by Greg Maxey Sunday, January 15, 2012 5:21 PM
    Sunday, January 15, 2012 5:20 PM
  •  I have changed Tools>Page Editor Options>Code Formatting>Tab Size from 1 to 64.  It doesn't matter what setting I have there. The space displayed in the <pre> in the design screen, preview, and a published is and remains the same.


    Greg Maxey Please visit my website at: http://gregmaxey.mvps.org/word_tips.htm


    Greg, that setting has nothing to do with what is displayed in design view.

    Also the tab setting at the top of the code formatting dialog has nothing to do with setting tabs for the pre tag,
    it is only for the keyboard tab key.

     


    Expression Web MVP
    Sunday, January 15, 2012 5:52 PM
  • Greg,

    All I can advise is to use spaces instead.  They'll be preserved inside a <pre> and are predicatble.  If you are getting actual tab characters, it won't be what you expect.


    • Edited by KathyW2 Sunday, January 15, 2012 7:02 PM
    Sunday, January 15, 2012 6:01 PM
  • The resident Phd here as already pointed provided me a reference to the <pre> element but I have not yet completely digested the related 306,000,000 links.

    Oh, good heavens, Greg! Such outrageous hyperbole is ridiculous, even for you. 306 million related links?! Where, pray tell, did you find any reason to look even one link beyond the one to which you were explicitly referred, and just where did you see all those links, anyway? <edit>Ah, it just came to me. You must be talking about the number of hits returned by Google. Urrm... right. I was clearly expecting you to read them all, since I referred you to the exact, specific page that held the answer, and even quoted the relevant part of that page in my reply, which was all that was necessary and sufficient to address your question. Sure, I obviously meant for you to "digest" all those returned pages...</edit>

    And then, you characterize my response as a non-answer?!

    Scott as responded in his typical gracious manner and while not answering the question has cut and pasted a recommedation that tabs be avoided in the <pre> element.

    Really? That's all you got out of that reference? The w3c recommendation is as clear as can be as to why you are seeing what you're seeing. Let me remind you...

    The ASCII Horizontal Tab (HT) character must be interpreted as the smallest positive nonzero number of spaces which will leave the number of characters so far on the line as a multiple of 8. Its use is not recommended however.

    Now, for the reading-challenged who may participate in this thread, that says that however many times you enter the Tab character (ASCII 09) in a <pre> element, a space equal to an exact multiple of eight characters (presumably space characters, since the result is "white space"), in the font-family specified in the style for the <pre> element, will be created. [It should be noted that it does indeed also discourage the use of the Tab character, which the OP did notice.] So, one Tab–8 spaces, two Tabs–16 spaces, and so forth. Note the use of the phrase "must be interpreted." Unless I'm mistaken, that means that user agents which are conforming to the standard as recommended must treat tabs in <pre> elements in accordance with this rule. Unlike an unfortunate number of other recommendations, its interpretation not flexible if a browser purports to be standards-compliant.

    For the print-oriented, the word processor-oriented, who see that result on their own displays, that may be interpreted as "that space is supposed to be reflected in .5 inches," which, of course, is ridiculous. To those who understand how the Web works, the relationship between character size and physical size is entirely indeterminate. Even discounting the fact that different typefaces have different em-widths, x-heights, and other metrics, eight character spaces of any particular font on a 17" monitor at 1024px x 768px is clearly physically wider than that same tab when displayed on a 7" netbook at 1024px x 768px.

    There is no fixed, constant physical size relationship between onscreen measures and the units used to specify them. That is why dimensions in inches, and units related to inches (such as points—72 pts per inch) are discouraged.

    I submit that my response directly and exactly answered the question, and did so by reference to the only organization with a claim to authority on the current (X)HTML standards—the W3 Consortium. That the OP either deliberately chose to misunderstand the answer provided, or, more sadly if true, was unable to understand the answer provided, is not my fault.

    I don't really want to get pounded on here by Scott or anyone else over this.

    Fine, then you are advised not to continue to bait me with snarky and wholly inaccurate comments about me in your replies to others. I had already resolved to withdraw from this bootless discussion when I saw those two statements above, which contribute nothing to your argument other than an opportunity to take a gratuitous shot at me in passing. You don't want to be fired upon? No problem—withhold your own fire.

    cheers,
    scott


    Please remember to "Mark as Answer" the responses that resolved your issue. It is common courtesy to recognize those who have helped you, and it also makes it easier for visitors to find the resolution later.
    Sunday, January 15, 2012 7:32 PM
  • Scott, you are mixing a tab character with spacing created by tabbing in EW's Code View inside a <pre> tag.  It doesn't create &#09; (horizontal tab character), it just adds space that is preserved.

    Tabbing inside a pre-tag puts space in, to the tab stop as determined by Code Formatting, and it works just fine as preserved space inside a <pre> tag.  Why it doesn't work for Greg is beyond me.

    No, I am not. Sorry, but I have to say that I'm seeing what Greg is seeing. What you describe is not what I am seeing in my testing, right now, at this moment. I pasted a dozen rows of this into a <pre> section in design view:

    Now is the time for all good men.
    To come to the aid of their party.
    Now is the time for all good men.
    To come to the aid of their party.

    I then tried several approaches to adding and altering tabs. If I position the caret at the beginning of a line in design view and hit the Tab key, I get an eight space indent. Interestingly, the code view for that line is simultaneously indented four spaces, but the character entity for Tab (&#09;) does not appear in code view, just the four spaces. If I now go up to code view and do the same thing, hitting Tab at the beginning of a line, again the four spaces appear in code view, and again eight spaces appear in design view, but the latter only after hitting F5 to refresh.

    At this point I tried changing the tab size in PEO. To my surprise, I found that this value is dynamic—any existing tabs in code view go to the new size as soon as the dialog is dismissed. Changing it to six caused all tabs in code view to be six chars wide, but had no effect upon design view, which remained at eight characters. Evidence so far indicates that EW enforces the W3C recommendation on tab size—multiples of eight characters.

    OK, so I'm wondering why at no point is a character entity for Tab appearing in code view. So, time for another experiment. This time I went to the beginning of a line in code view and pasted in the entity value, &#09;. Hmm... when I hit F5 this time, again the design view indented exactly eight characters. And in this case, code view did not indent at all, other than in the sense of moving five spaces to accommodate the pasted-in entity value, even though the tab value (in Code Formatting) is now six.

    Changing the tab size in Code Formatting back to four results, as now expected, in all tabs in code view reverting to four spaces, but all those in design view remaining at eight spaces. Just for giggles, I went back to design view and hit the Tab key at the beginning of a line, and as expected (now, anyway) eight spaces appeared in design view, and only four spaces in the same position in code view.

    I am very curious as to how you're seeing the results you're seeing, as I am unable to duplicate them in EW4 SP2.

    cheers,
    scott


    Please remember to "Mark as Answer" the responses that resolved your issue. It is common courtesy to recognize those who have helped you, and it also makes it easier for visitors to find the resolution later.
    Sunday, January 15, 2012 7:35 PM
  • Scott, when I tested it, I got spaces, not a tab character: 2, 3, 5, 20 spaces, whatever, verified in a browser.  When I tried it on Greg's page, I did not.  I have no explanation for the difference since I when back to try and figure that out I created a new page, and couldn't reproduce getting spaces but was getting tabs.

    It's a mystery to me, but since I can't reproduce it, I can't do anything other than agree with what you are saying: use spaces, tabbing will get you a tab character.

    Sunday, January 15, 2012 10:34 PM
  • Design view does not display the <pre> element correctly. In every case where I have used it design view shows the line run together but when previewed in a browser it reneders as I expect.

    Having said that, <pre> is an element that should be used sparingly as should the css property value pair of whitespace: pre; which is intended to do the same thing in the browser.

    It is an unreliable method at best.


    Free Expression Web Tutorials
    For an Expression Web forum with without the posting issues try expressionwebforum.com
    Sunday, January 15, 2012 10:39 PM
  • Agreed here - I likewise cannot understand why MVP's, Partners, etc. etc., are unable / unwilling to give a helpful answer.

    Sheese... if you feel the OP is asking for something "too" simple for your intellect, then simply don't answer - the thread will die on its own.

    From the answers given by the "gurus", this is perhaps the most arrogant / condescending forum with which I'm involved.  Occasionally, There'll be a bit of sage advice; and that's the reason I stop around.

    Larry

    Monday, January 16, 2012 1:16 AM
  • Steve,

    I've been out today and I just saw your reply among the others.  I'll look into that as so as I get a chance.  Thanks. 


    Greg Maxey Please visit my website at: http://gregmaxey.mvps.org/word_tips.htm
    Monday, January 16, 2012 2:11 AM
  • Larry,

    Have you looked at the number of threads that Greg has started and the amount of help he's received. How to do what he wants using web standards - aka using padding in the style or text-indent or margin was given multiple times. There is no tab element in HTML. Another workaround given was to use nonbreaking spaces. If that isn't being helpful then I don't know your definition of helpful.


    Free Expression Web Tutorials
    For an Expression Web forum with without the posting issues try expressionwebforum.com
    Monday, January 16, 2012 2:51 AM
  • Steve,

    I've looked in EW4 and EW2 and I was not able to find a "code block" in the toolbox.  My toolbox contains sections for HTML, Form, Media and ASP.Net controls.  I also looked on the Panels menu.


    Greg Maxey Please visit my website at: http://gregmaxey.mvps.org/word_tips.htm
    Monday, January 16, 2012 2:55 AM
  • It's just an html elment: <code></code> instead of <pre></pre>.  Unlike <pre>, it doesn't preserve multiple spaces or line breaks.  By itself, it requires <br /> for line breaks, like any other text.  It displays by default in a fixed-width font.
    Monday, January 16, 2012 3:13 AM
  • Kathy,

    Ok.   I don't know if it will be any better but I can try one.  I suppose you saw all the effort is took to get the various XML coloring to show. Thankfully most of my code postings will be straight VBA and want be so much trouble.

    Thanks.


    Greg Maxey Please visit my website at: http://gregmaxey.mvps.org/word_tips.htm
    Monday, January 16, 2012 3:26 AM
  • I've looked in EW4 and EW2 and I was not able to find a "code block" in the toolbox.  My toolbox contains sections for HTML, Form, Media and ASP.Net controls.  I also looked on the Panels menu.

    Heh, heh... that's because there isn't one. At least, not in EW4 SP2 as "shipped."

    Wouldn't matter anyway—the <code></code> element doesn't work cross browser. Nor does the <xmp></xmp> (for "example," I presume). The only thing I found that worked everywhere was to paste code into a textarea element (forms don't have to actually submit, you know ;-). You can put anything you want in a textarea and the browser treats it as a default text entry. It neither alters it nor tries to render it, just leaves it alone. You can paste formatted code directly from your code editor, and that's what you get, whitespace included.

    Drrawbacks? Well, of course. ;-) A textarea used this way is non-semantic. OTOH, who cares? It's sample code, right? The other thing's little more serious, or can be, if the visitor notices. A textarea is, of course, an input control. Therefore, the user can simply click in it and start altering it. If he does so before he copies the code he wants... well, you can see the issue. OTOH, I've probably copied code from dozens of these things without ever realizing that I could alter their contents. Besides, so what? If he screws up the code, a simple page refresh brings it back.

    Anyway, there's the way you can do it, if the drawbacks don't bother you. 

    cheers,
    scott


    Please remember to "Mark as Answer" the responses that resolved your issue. It is common courtesy to recognize those who have helped you, and it also makes it easier for visitors to find the resolution later.
    Monday, January 16, 2012 3:30 AM
  • Kathy,

    That is exactly what I had done after I was completely incapable of comprehending Scott's suggestion do so. I believe this thread may have become long and drawn out because I wasn't seeing what you were seeing and I wasn't thinking what some others thought I was thinking.  I was hearing you can from one side and you can't from another.  Not being on the same level of skill or knowledge, I was a bit confused.

    Thank you for your persistence and follow-up.  I know you were trying to help. I would also like to appologize to you and anyone else who may read this thread for having crossed swords with Scott.  I have heard that when a wise man has realized that there is nothing else to be gained then he withdraws from the field. Scott appears to be wise and I can be too.    


    Greg Maxey Please visit my website at: http://gregmaxey.mvps.org/word_tips.htm
    Monday, January 16, 2012 3:44 AM
  • Scott,

    Before bristling, please consider that this reply is not intended as a continuance of our brouhaha in this forum. That was, at the very least, childish of me. I would simply like to describe my experience in this thread in particular and this forum in general. You may accept it, ignore it, and as I am not a person that has to have the last word, reply if you wish.

    First, I have been participating in Microsoft support forums of one variety or the other for over ten years. While I am guilty of the same offense in this forum, I understand the irritation that can be experienced by a "regular" when some utterly complete novice comes on the scene asking dozens of questions, that to "me" the regular, are or should be completely obvious. I've felt your frustraion here and I will try to learn from that experience, which has been unpleasant and humiliating, how to better interact with newbies in my own area of expertise.

    Yes, your post does answer the question. However, and excluding the opening salvo ... "Good lord, Greg!...," perhaps you could accept that an answer like, "You can't. The tab space in a <pre> element is fixed and use of a tab spaces are not recommended." would be a bit more comprehensible to a novice with hundreds of new terms, expressions and concepts swirling in their head, who in plain truth "doesn't" understand how the web works.

    You are clearly a remarkably intelligent and gifted man with exceptional knowledge of all facets of the web. I acknowledge that and I can even understand your, intentional or not, "this is my mountain and I am king" demeanor that I've observed here. Still, and this is just an observation, your manner out of the box is usually provocative and hostile. Broadsides (paraphrased) such as "If .... had a clue how the web works ..., The irony here is ...," "Any developer with an elementary understanding ...." sets a negative tone and are really unnecessary and unwelcoming. If you accept nothing else, accept this; if things remain unchanged, when posting here you make me feel like a field mouse under the watchful eye of a circling falcon.

    I noticed that I am not alone in my view that this forum is peppered with a certain amount of unwelcoming arrogance. Folks, if people coming here looking for answers knew as much as you know or knew the W3C school lessons cover to cover then it does'nt seem like there would be much need for the forum. Like why post here, everybody knows everything already. Again, just an observation, but opening responses like " ... if you had read the FAQ ... " says "oh no, here comes another dumb$$$$ too stupid to help himself." Well, even if you think they should, not everybody reads FAQs. Something like question: "I'm new to this forum and EW4. What is 1 + 1." Answer: "2. If you will read the FAQ post at the top of the forum you will find the answer to this and many other general questions .... " clearly sets a better tone. Again, I realize that tolerance for a pesky beginner only goes so far.

    I've learned a lot from you and most others here and if at the end of the day I have to give a pound of flesh or experience a certain degree of unpleasantness for the knowledge gained so be it.

    Greg

     


    Greg Maxey Please visit my website at: http://gregmaxey.mvps.org/word_tips.htm

    • Edited by Greg Maxey Monday, January 16, 2012 8:34 PM
    Monday, January 16, 2012 3:20 PM