When will we have some new information?

Question

Hi,

It's been over two weeks - well over, in some cases, since we had any new information or updates on what's happening. Many Niches, Michel Klucher's blog, Ozymandius, Artificial Ignorance, the backstage forums... none of the MS blogs or Windows Phone Blogs are showing any information at all. Maybe we're just spoiled by things like Brandon Watson's brilliant Windows Backstage Conversation on May 24th, but the sudden contrast between then and now is noticeable.

In this time, the Kin phones have been cancelled and the knowledge that there are some layoffs at MS has been made public. This, without any other information to balance it, is slightly concerning.

We're still looking at a "brand new" April CTP release. We have provisional, partial developer documentation, mostly as a placeholder.

According to rumour, the initial launch of the phone is to take place in September - that's two months away (ok, three to the end of September, but still), and earlier than most of us anticipated. This could mean things are going great - or it could mean that something, anything is being pushed out the door asap.

Now, if it's crunch time and everyone is snowed under, this makes sense, but please remember we don't see any of the work you're doing. All we see is silence, and the occasional moderator promising to pass on our comments. It's quite possible that the reason the expected CTP update last month didn't happen was because you were working hard to complete the RTM version, or because things are still changing as you get close to finalising what's in the launch, or just because you're all really, really busy and just haven't had time to get around to it, but we see none of that - we see nothing.

A short blog post just letting us know that everything is still underway would be reassuring. If we're getting nothing in terms of updates until after September/October, then we can focus on the little apps and the games that the current CTP allows and not worry about our more ambitious plans or designs. We can aim to try and have those ready for the end of the year instead of launch, if developer tools and support allow.

If we've got all we're going to get for a couple of months, then please let us know, so we can plan accordingly.

Answer 1

Microsoft: When can we get the next CTP?

Answer 2

Well stated.  I'm well past curious and now into frustrated, with upset not too far away.  It's been too long with too little news and too many "well, Microsoft promised this back in this post a few months ago, but it's past due and there's no word" posts.

Microsoft: you're not feeding your technical community the way you had promised.  We need news, we need updated tools, we need better documentation and we need confirmation that you aren't scrapping yet another product line without telling us.

Answer 3

I agree.  The silence is noticeable.  My guess is that a planned release of the tools was scrubbed in favor of a final build at the end of the summer.  I’m sure the Kin axe has shaken a few things up too.  It’s a shame some of that billion dollars could have been spent getting developers phones.  I did see that a couple of high schoolers got a phone today, so I guess that was important.  Bottom line, a little info would be reassuring.

Answer 4

My gut feel is they are heads down meeting internal deadlines. I'm also keeping in mind the product team support in this forum continues to be steady. Perhaps even bursty at times which may reflect test cycles in progress.

A few handsets in schoolies hands is a good marketing angle to that age group. Good to see efforts in this regard after Dayjur's post . I expect we'll see more angles being exercised to raise the profile of WP7 in the significant market segments in due course.

Answer 5

My guess is that the Kin team integration has caused some reorganization which would explain the current silence and the earlier than expected projected release date?

I have a Silverlight game that's ready and looking pretty good yet I haven't heard anything at all from MSFT. It's quite frustrating.

Answer 6

@Peter I 1000% agree with you. Silence is frustrating and will turn to nervousness if few more days are passed. At this point my small ISV just want to hear that it isn't another KIN in the making.

 

There are far too many limitations in the current CTP. For eg : I am working on Pregnancy+Female calendar application and I had to create calendar on my own. Although make-shift calendar works, it doesn't support localization. I don't want to waste to too much time in creating my own and spending a month on it and later throw it to dust bin, because OS will have it. Calendar though looks simple, localization etc is not simple. Left to Right, Right to Left, different locales, different calendars and what not.

Other such examples are : Time Pickers, Toogle switch (looks different in OS settings page then supplied control), InputScope (with numbers it accepts alpha etc), TextBox improvement (ability to clear contents on x or put "+" etc.), Panaroma Control, Pivot Control, Tap and Hold Controls (some call it context menu) etc.

It's impossible to adhere to OS look and feel unless framework gives these controls.

So we are desperately waiting... I don't know how long we will have to wait, but have a feeling something is around the corner. They have history of releasing refreshes on Thursday, I think we will know more by next thursday.

Regarding Developer Phones, it's sad that Microsoft finds 400 students who participated as more valuable partners then those of us who are working on real applications and have already registered at marketplace. Look at kind of apps they are coming up with : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9I0rNCAoTmc .

Speak up Microsoft, please do speak up. If there is delay let us know, if it's coming sooner : let us know. We are all waiting to be a part of opportunity of this decade.

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SilverCrux Technologies

Answer 7

You know what else I love about you guys (see my first post)?  You keep us honest.  You demand the best.  You accept nothing less.

Sorry things have been a bit quiet.  Yes, we have had a bit of a busy couple of weeks with the unfortunate cancelling of the Kin product.  There are a lot of very, very smart people on that team, and they most certainly will be joining in the Windows Phone 7 effort.  If you have seen the Kin Studio, you know that they had some kickass ideas that they implemented.  I can't wait to get their DNA integrated with our team.

Now I will share a little inside baseball info.  We've just had our fiscal year close, which tends to get people a little harried.  Next week is our Worldwide Partner Conference.  I'm really excited about getting to spend time with our partners from around the world, and get even more people excited about WP7.  I also have been asked to come on stage during our Sr. VP's keynote on Monday at 2pm EST.  We've got some good stuff to talk about.  The week after the WPC is MGX, which is our global sales summit.  That's where we bring in of our field folks at the beginning of our fiscal year to talk about the new year, the new products coming, how to continue growing existing businesses, etc.  The week after that is TechReady, which is an internal technical training event for our technical field roles.  So, that's 3 weeks of "things."  Everyone wants to know about Windows Phone 7.  To say that the WP7 team is hunkered down is a bit of an understatement.

Last month we made a promise.  We said that phones would land in developers' hands "next month," meaning July.  It is now July.  We will keep that promise.  Based on the email volume I personally have receveid, there won't be enough pre-production developer phones for everyone who wants one.  The demand has been absolutely incredbile.  We are going to creative about how we can meet demand.  For all of the people who have sent emails, we have been collecting them and getting them to the right field personnel to ensure that when phones start going out, they can contact developers and prioritize.  I've tried to personally respond to all of the ones sent directly to me, and on my blog, but I know I have missed quite a few.  Many apologies.

Finally, I am absolutely floored by what you guys are already doing with the tools.  In my post a couple of weeks ago I suggested people start posting code running in the emulator to youtube and tagging it "wp7dev."  There's 50+ videos already.  Amazing.  Lots of posts from people sharing what they are doing, how they have solved problems, etc.  It's great to see the community so active.

We've got a big couple of weeks in front of us.  Keep the faith.  To close, I will borrow from the Dos Equis guy, "stay nerdy my friends."

Thanks,

Brandon - "I don't always write apps, but when I do, I prefer Windows Phone 7"

Answer 8

Specific response to this bit:

...Regarding Developer Phones, it's sad that Microsoft finds 400 students who participated as more valuable partners then those of us who are working on real applications and have already registered at marketplace. Look at kind of apps they are coming up with : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9I0rNCAoTmc .

During the Imagine Cup today, there was an announcement made that phones were going to be given to the students who were finalists in that competition.  The phones which they will be receiving are going to be production phones.  Meaning that the will not get phones until after general availability.  The students who have participated in the Imagine Cup have created some aboslutely amazing apps, across mobile, desktop, web, etc.  Those are exactly the kinds of developers we want to continue to be excited about the Microsoft platform.  That said, they aren't getting any of the pre-production developer devices which will start landing in developers' hands this month.

Answer 9

Thanks Brandon. That satisfies our nerves :). On to development.... Opportunity of this decade as I call it!

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SilverCrux Technologies

Answer 10

I really understand that you guys must be really busy :) All these eventy and the milestones are not moving :)

But it woul dbe good to have an idea when you think the next SDK drop comes out. As silvercruz pointed out - the limitations ragarding gui controls are really a problem. GUI takes a lot of time to make in the usual little app. So good controls are extremely important.

It might help if you just release some CTP control suite instead of a full SDK - if thats easier to manage?

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------------------------- I Love Windows Phone http://modernappdesign.blogspot.com/

Answer 11

Going of Previous XNA release schedules, I expect we won't see any more until the final release of the dev tools.  Yes it might be nice to have a refresh sooner to ease some of the eventual upgrade issues we usually get with the code.

But, my view is I would rather the teams focusing on making the tools and SDK as solid as possible ready for the final release, I don't think most people really understands just how much work is involved in shipping any release of software or an SDK.  It is a tremendous effort and while they are doing that they are not working on feature X or squeezing that extra bit of performance from the hardware.

There are usually a few good work arounds on the net or the forums to get get features working while we wait for the full release adn always people happy to help and offer ideas.  The Rob Miles video @ Dev Days 2010 shows just how far people are willing to go, using an XBOX controller and a service app to emulate the accelerometer is just the right amount of nuts.

So I will sit and wait for the full kit while working on my projects ready for the launch.

Great effort guys and keep up the fantastic work.

 

(P.S where's my phone :-), just kidding)

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Darkside - http://thegamedevspace.spaces.live.com - Exploring the beginings of Game Development New XNA Multi-Platform blog @ http://xna-uk.net/blogs/darkgenesis/default.aspx Windows, XBOX and Windows Phone 7

Answer 12

Going of Previous XNA release schedules, I expect we won't see any more until the final release of the dev tools.  Yes it might be nice to have a refresh sooner to ease some of the eventual upgrade issues we usually get with the code.

But, my view is I would rather the teams focusing on making the tools and SDK as solid as possible ready for the final release, I don't think most people really understands just how much work is involved in shipping any release of software or an SDK.  It is a tremendous effort and while they are doing that they are not working on feature X or squeezing that extra bit of performance from the hardware.

There are usually a few good work arounds on the net or the forums to get get features working while we wait for the full release adn always people happy to help and offer ideas.  The Rob Miles video @ Dev Days 2010 shows just how far people are willing to go, using an XBOX controller and a service app to emulate the accelerometer is just the right amount of nuts.

So I will sit and wait for the full kit while working on my projects ready for the launch.

Great effort guys and keep up the fantastic work.

 

(P.S where's my phone :-), just kidding)

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Darkside - http://thegamedevspace.spaces.live.com - Exploring the beginings of Game Development New XNA Multi-Platform blog @ http://xna-uk.net/blogs/darkgenesis/default.aspx Windows, XBOX and Windows Phone 7

I totally agree that its a great deal of work releasing some SDK. But I really doubt that a release is done from the developers optimizing and finishing their work. Different team. We are not speaking about a small company here. MS havine a huge number of people working on the project Phone 7. So I see that this is somehow an additional work, but it was scheduled (at least that was the statement)...
MS has a version control system too (I am rather sure about that) - so letting the devs do their work will not hinder any release branching... Some management of the delivered featureset mus of cause be done and that is a huge amount of work.

Not everything is doable (in a sens of time consumation) via a workaround. I have a unresolved blocking problem with SOAP webservices. OData is not working either. Missing GUI controls are one of the most pressing issue though. Such thing could only be adressed through a drop (minor or mayor).

Of cause I would be happy to get a "final" version with no bugs delivered. But would be happy about a slightly increased featureset for the time being too...

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------------------------- I Love Windows Phone http://modernappdesign.blogspot.com/

Answer 13

What is clear is concerns of an MS lack of commitment to wp7 have been put to rest.

I read all the articles, and what they tend to overlook is the stake MS has in this projects success. Failure in this could well undo very much more than just mobile. I am sure MS would see this. I hope it's what was behind the very tough call of going back to the drawing board some 18 or so months ago. Kin was an experiment. It failed. That is all.

What is most reassuring to me is hearing people speak of harmony within the merged team. That the assets the kin guys bring to the program are of value and are recognised by their new brothers. Mutual respect is a productive foundation to build on.

On with the show..

Answer 14

Good to know. You guys must be under a lot of pressure (Competing with iPhone / Android, Pissed off WinMo 6.5 folks, Silverlight/XNA learning curve, etc etc)

So far it looks like the right decisions are being made in regards to architecture and hopefully marketing.

Answer 15

You know what else I love about you guys (see my first post)?  You keep us honest.  You demand the best.  You accept nothing less.

Thanks a lot for the reply, Brandon. It's good to sea that this board does get read - too many message boards in the world are set up for the little guys to chatter and rant on and are rapidly ignored by the company that sets them up. :) Your backstage conversation on May 24th was one of the things that originally gave us massive confidence in where things were going, it was informative and very real.

Anyway, in the tradition of keeping you honest and being demanding, your post showed quite clearly that you guys are really, really busy... but we could really do with a hint on what to expect from our viewpoint.

If you're saying "Wait until after the Worldwide Partner Conference", then fine, no problem. If you're saying "we're busy for the next three weeks, don't expect anything until after that, but we'll get back to you then," then again, no problem. The problem is just that we've now got a message that translates to "hey guys, we're really busy and doing good things." That wonderful - but what should we do? Will there be a new toolkit before launch? If not, just tell us, so we don't waste time waiting for something that's not happening. We won't abandon you, honest. We're just trying to do our bit here as well.

So, is there anything you can say about new controls, tools, choosers, functionality or anything? Or can you at least give us an idea of when we will hhear something? Even an announcement that there will be an announcement?

To be honest, there are some rumours out there that things are not well with you guys - some of the chatter around the Kin stuff has not been pleasant at all. News/goosip sites like The Register have been carrying some not-nice stories. Now many, if not most of us, have worked in larger companies and we know how things really go, but reassurance that there still is a plan, and not just "we're frantically busy but not really sure what's happening now".

Answer 16

Paugh.  Just wasted another hour trying to work with landscape mode, but the emulator's landscape support is so horrifically broken in the April CTP that it's just not worth the effort to even try.

Time to get your "I'm the Public Face of WP7 Development" face on and tell us when we can expect some decent tools to work with.

Answer 17

Thanks Brandon for taking the time to respond to this.  Any news on the SDK front?

Answer 18

Paugh.  Just wasted another hour trying to work with landscape mode, but the emulator's landscape support is so horrifically broken in the April CTP that it's just not worth the effort to even try.

Time to get your "I'm the Public Face of WP7 Development" face on and tell us when we can expect some decent tools to work with.

There is nothing wrong with the tools.  Microsoft just needs to fix and enrich the APIs for dealing with orientation.  Silverlight is not too bad, its XNA that really suffers at the moment.

Answer 19

While you're thinking about harmony with the Kin team, Brandon, please go talk to the people who ran 3rd-party developer support for the Sidekick.  They've got some skills and advice that would help you out a lot here.

Answer 20

Hey, and guess what?  I'm writing XNA apps.  :(

Answer 21

Thanks Brandon.  Do you know the timetable on getting them out?  I suppose if we don't hear something soon we can assume that we aren't one of the chosen few?

Answer 22

For those wondering...the keynote in which I will be presenting is at 2PM EST on Monday and it will be streamed at www.digitalwpc.com.

Answer 23

@Brandon: Was wondering..thanks for the link.

Can't wait to get my hands on the newest SDK (& hopefully the developer phone :). 

Answer 24

For those that haven't yet seen it looks like some new information is starting to show up.

http://blogs.msdn.com/b/jaimer/archive/2010/06/28/migrating-apps-from-windows-phone-ctps-to-the-beta-build.aspx?wa=wsignin1.0

also from Phone7.Wordpress.com

Just a reminder that WPC 2010 starts today (12th). Naturally, there will be many discussions going on, about a variety of software and services from MS. We’re obviously keen on any new revelations on Windows Phone 7. As mentioned before, I will update this blog when news comes through. However, for those of you who want to watch it live, the WPC will stream Brandon Watson’s keynote from 2pm EST (which I believe is 7pm BST).

Should note, that other keynote presentations will be streamed from 8am EST (check the agenda for keynote details).

You’ll be able to watch the stream over here.

For those who want to know what else is on, you can see the agenda here and download the conference guide here.

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Joel Ivory Johnson | http://www.j2i.net | Device Application Development MVP

It takes all the running you can do to stay in one place.If you want to get somewhere else,you must try to run at least twice as fast as that.

Answer 25

The "Windows Phone Developer Tools Beta" installer has been posted to the downloads site, www.microsoft.com/downloads.

It will take a bit longer for the various tools download links to get updated.

specifically: http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?displaylang=en&FamilyID=c8496c2a-54d9-4b11-9491-a1bfaf32f2e3

 

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-Eric.

Answer 26

For the latest news you can take a look at some of the Facebook communities. For Windows Phone 7 I would suggest you the Windows Phone 7 community page:

http://www.facebook.com/pages/Windows-Phone-7-community/150995401597064

 

Here you can post some content, ask questions or see the latest news. The people in this page are mainly wp7 developers or people involved in some way in wp7 technology.

I hope that this will help you.