Support for SVG

Question

Given the increasing support for SVG in other browsers (see http://www.svg.org/story/2006/12/9/162846/181) when can we expect to see Internet Explorer support this popular specification?

Answer 1

It's curently too early to announce exact plans at this stage. We are certainly looking into this area though.

Of course IE does support VML a prevcursor to the SVG standard recommendation but we do understand this is nto the same a supporting the SVG recommendation.

Thanks
-Dave

Answer 2

Hi Dave. Thanks for your response. This question is just me thinking out loud after I spent some time last week comparing the WPF/E Dec.2006 CTP against SVG. After realizing that SVG wins out in many areas I was directed to this forum by Mike Harsh (WPF/E Program Manager) to query when, or if, Internet Explorer will support SVG ?

The thing is, I already see SVG burgeoning everywhere - on many Linux distros, on cellphones from the likes of Motorola and Nokia, and on web browsers such as Firefox and Opera. As SVG appears to offer some exciting possibilities for graphics presentation on a variety of media I feel it would be great to see IE leading these, instead of playing catch-up.

Rather than just "looking into this area" maybe I'm hoping there is "active development" on SVG support underway ? - but, this is just me thinkin' out loud 

Answer 3

We're now 6 months on from this topic. Is Microsoft any closer to ditching VML in support for SVG? Are they going to bother with SVG at all? The recomendation has been out there for long enough now.

Where's the roadmap? Where's the plan?

Answer 4

There is a major push away from desktop GIS to web-based GIS, particularly intranet GIS apps, that has been happening and will accelerate as GIS vendors realise their customers want spatially enabled applications, not just viewers.

 

Many developers, me included, cut these apps using ASP.Net for IE-only customers.

 

Right now, the discontinued Adobe SVG plug-in is our only efficient way of providing interactive maps.  We are all hanging on a thread here.  Common, Microsoft!  Give us the tools to get the job done!  We desparately need a plan for SVG 1.1 Full implementation.  Lead the way, even if its a plug-in!!

Answer 5

Couldn't agree more.

 

I work for a large multi-national corporation with a standardised desktop based on IE...so switching browers with native SVG support is not an option for us.

 

I need to understand how I can continue to develop SVG based web applications, and support our current ones.  On the other hand, I also have to mitigate against potential issues once our current viewer, Abobe SVG Viewer, goes out of support in 1-Jan-2008.

 

So what am I to do?  The Renesis plugin alternative does not appear to be a viable alternative for us.  Is it time for me to abandon SVG due to 1) a lack of support from Microsoft for this format (plus no message of intented future support) and 2) virtually no 3rd party plugins for IE to render SVG.

 

Any ideas anyone?  I think I'm caught between a rock and a hard place

Answer 6

SVG has been around for more than 4 years.  If you don't see support by now, then the real MS-strategy is to let it die on the vine, along with the thousands of hours of developer time.  Too bad.

Answer 7

It is just my speculation but I would think that  MS is betting on XAML, thus Silverlight, WPF and Expression Studio.

 

Just a business oriented thought.

Answer 8

My two cents.... It's pretty sad that IE

hasn't been able to support SVG by now. Firefox has supported it for quite a while, and IE would certainly would benefit by supporting it. The whole silverlight plugin is not a decent replacement for the simple to use/understand open standard of SVG. Just do it. There's no reason not to have it, and IE can still support whatever priopietary vector graphics they want. Needless to say, it's simply annoying from a users point of view to go to another browser just to view SVG.

 

Answer 9

Yes indeedy (ken?). This little thread has now been running for some time, and during that time Firefox has continued to increasingly support more features of the SVG specification. And SVG is widely used in Linux too. So SVG sure ain't going away anytime soon and it really would enhance the credibility of Internet Explorer if SVG support was introduced soon - especially if more standards compliant than Firefox. A confident move!

Answer 10

Dave,

You need to change your signature! Unless I'm mistaken, you are no longer at Microsoft, thus your comments:
"It's curently too early to announce exact plans at this stage. We are certainly looking into this area though."

Are a little out of place.  I would personally feel that "late" not "early" would be the correct statement too.  SVG has been out for ages.  I've built application pieces with it, but have ceased development because users were weary about downloading an un-supported pluggin to gain usage of the SVGs. (and I don't blame them)

I know Adobe doesn't want to put more $/time into it, since it is MS that should be running it natively... but MS should pick up the ball on this, and take some leadership here.

What frustrates us developers is the lack of info one way or the other on this.  An IE8 roadmap would solve this, but requesting one would fall on deaf ears (again).

I suppose we could put in a "feature request" in the bug tracking system and track it there!...... but oh yeah can't do that.... its closed down.

I know you aren't in MS anymore, but if you have any "persuasion power" to get them to open up we would certainly appreciate it.

Answer 11

Now it is 2008.  Is it still too early to announce a timeline?  Is there a reason Microsoft refuses to support SVG.  It is my experience that Microsoft gains rather than loosing by supporting Internet standards.

Answer 12

Good point James. Just why is Microsoft refusing to support SVG?

Any suggestions?...

Answer 13

This is quite simple really - Silverlight.

Microsoft will not support SVG natively ever because they now want people to start using their own Silverlight product. The similarities between the proposed SVG 1.2 and Silverlight are quite staggering. SVG 1.1 already implements almost everything Silverlight can do (excluding embedding of video and audio etc). SVG already comprehensively covers all areas of drawing, animation, interactivity and scripting. It supports the full DOM model in the same sense as html, and supports full ECMA Script (JavaScript).

The reason Microsoft is not support this therefore, is because they know that they can push their own Silverlight product which is essentially the same thing as SVG 1.2 but without any of the standards support and distribute it under the pretence of supporting all 'major' platforms (Windows, OSX, IE, Firefox, Safari - but not on Linux) with a closed source plug-in. So, this presents developers with a problem: do you develop your website using the open SVG format which CAN be supported on any platform because it is an open standard, but IS not supported by Internet Explorer which immediately alienates over 50% of your users, or use the Silverlight plug-in which is maintained by Microsoft for a good majority of browsers but is not an open standard.

There it is, Microsoft will not support SVG because they know they can keep better control by forcing the use of their own Silverlight product.

I know that there is currently open source implementation or Silverlight (called Moonlight) but this will always be a case of just trying to re-engineer the Microsoft format rather than from an open standard which will always leave Microsoft in ultimate control of the market. There is also some other interesting projects currently in progress – there’s the Batik project which is a full implementation of SVG1.1 in java, there is also the Renesis project which is developing a new proprietary SVG player which will work as a plug-in for Internet Explorer.

Answer 14

Although I REALLY hope this isn't the case, you do provide a pretty convincing view of the Microsoft anti-standards approach.

Answer 15

Silverlight will never win because it is not an open standard. Nowadays, you do not have the ability to play silverlight content on linux for instance, nor on a PS3 or a Nintendo Wii.
SVG is a standard and it will also lose if Microsoft refuses to implement it into IE.

By pushing silverlight instead of SVG, you rank Flash at the first place, by default.

Remember what happened to VC1. It was said to be the best HD video codec in 2003 by Microsoft but h.264 was and h.264 won. Even adobe said farewell to flv in favor of h.264.

So, Microsoft should either open the source of .net and silverlight or it should forget it and implement SVG. I ask for the second option, even if SVG is not the best thing for animations.

Answer 16

The Browser war is pratically over.  The new war is for rich content provision and the ability to provide Web application UIs that are on par with what can be delivered by a 'Thick client' app.

 

The important thing is to sell back end OSes and Database engines which drive these apps, this is where the money comes from.  To maximise that you need to make developing these apps accessible to as many developers as possible whilst making sure that the smoothest way to deliver them is to use your OSes and DBs etc. This is what MS is good at. 

 

For every 1 developer thats aware of and concerned about such issues as is raised in this thread there are 10 who don't. MS understand that and its the 10 they target, they try to entice the 1 also but be under no illusion, they know where the cash flows from.

 

The Silverlight sandbox is designed to eliminate concerns about client browser or OS.  A good IDE where a single language is needed to develop the app front to back (including even the DB work in LINQ) is a very compelling propostion to the 10.  I certainly find it compelling.  I really wouldn't care whether its SVG or XAML on the client I'd just want it work.

 

Of course we will have to wait and see if MS can deliver this, it will require a Silverlight take up on par with Shockwave.  However supporting SVG at this point could seriously undermine Silverlight, ultimately undermining the reasons to run sites on MS platforms.  That would be bad for business.  In the world of open source and so much being 'Free' its easy to forget that most of the organisations involved in this are actually profit making businesses.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Answer 17

Anthony Jones wrote:

I really wouldn't care whether its SVG or XAML on the client I'd just want it work.

 

That is exactly the kind of indifference that has empowered Microsoft...

 

Anthony Jones wrote:

In the world of open source and so much being 'Free' its easy to forget that most of the organisations involved in this are actually profit making businesses.

 

And the shroud of the dark side falls. Money... All is fair in love and war huh? I submit to you that whoever coined that phrase was a self serving #$@&#*@!

  

The end result of anything on planet earth should not be money or control. As long as we allow this type of behavior, we are just as guilty for the long list of injustices that all of us whine about daily...

 

Standards afford us the opportunity to develop new and better widgets in an organized fashion that can be widely implemented with the least amount of grief. If they are not up to the task, they can and will be refined until they are.

 

I am not going to argue that SVG is superior to XAML as I have just begun my research into this area of technology. But, I will argue that history has proven that any organization given too much power will become corrupt. I think Microsoft has established a long history of this very thing...

Answer 18

Just another data point, but I don't think the IE team would be the ones to implement it anyway.  The IE team is the browser frame and UI features + mshtml and urlmon.  VML comes from Office.  JScript comes from the Developer Division (the VS team, the CLR team, etc).  Silverlight and MSXML are seperate teams as well.  Really you should be hounding the Office team that did VML to update it.

Also, I'm pretty sure Dave was still on the IE team in 2006 when he made that post.  Though my memory is fuzzy.

Answer 19

When the SVG standard was set Explorer had better than 85% of the market share—they currently have 52%. What happened? Could the other browsers be outpacing them with functionality and standards support? Coud MS have lost touch with their customer? They can change their stance on standards compliance or keep riding the trend down. Customers were happy to hear that their latest browser release would be more standards compliant, CSS anyway. Why not make your customers happy? There was a time when MS would drop into their product every good idea they could rip off and as a result they continued to improve it until it was an industry best.

Please MS take note and listen to what your customers are saying. They are saying it in the forums and they are saying by migrating to other browsers. Silverlight is kind of neat, I wont use it, and it wont stop your slipping browser share.

 

Regards, Lonnie

Answer 20

I was about to code up some SVG on my website , but then realised not supported by IE.

 

What are the alternatives, that preferably do not require the end-user to install a plugin on IE?

 

And since I'm experimenting with XML what would be the best XML style way to get simple vector graphics and possibly animation thereof into a website?

 

Silverlight? Flash? SVG? Others?

Answer 21

It's good to see there's some controversy stirring - it's good to debate!

@Anthony Jones:

I think you’re absolutely right that supporting SVG would undermine SilverLight; however, as a dominant company I think Microsoft is seriously running the risk of being seen to abuse its position to actively restrain the development of open standards in favour of their own products. 
An interesting comparison lies between Google's approaches to developing the web vs. Microsoft's view of developing the web. Google takes the view that the best way it can make money is by improving the web for everyone possible on ever y platform – it’s not just because they’re super kind but because they know that they can make their money by just ensuring that they provide the best services on the web. However Microsoft’s view is that by developing technologies specifically controlled by them they can simply make their money by dominance in the marketplace meaning that businesses are forced to use their software. This is not to say that Google’s approach is without fault; however it does show a lot more strength in gaining its support based on having the best services rather than just controlling the technology and the market.
In the long run the standardised approach will win out. We’ve seen this from a HTML point of view neither Netscape nor Internet Explorer now define the HTML standard, but rather the W3C. Similarly the Microsoft Office document format is now in the possession of the ISO. It is inevitable that any long term technology will be standardised, however it is a shame to see wasted effort in that there was already extensive work done on the open SVG format which Microsoft have essentially copied and implemented in an attempt to dominate the area hoped to be defined in an open manor. 

If the SilverLight XAML format does get widespread adoption the inevitable future will that it’ll be formed into a new standard which will get changed through the process so that it is better defined and then we’ll end up with duplicated standards for doing exactly the same task. 

@jeffdav:

The whole purpose of defining a standard is so that it can be natively supported rather than through plug-ins. SVG is now supported natively in all browsers except Internet Explorer (which still only has an implementation through an unsupported plug-in). Therefore this should be a concern for the IE development team because SVG should be as standard in the web as HTML or ECMA scripts (JavaScript) and therefore natively supported in any web browser. 
The idea of developing a new web-based technology through a plug-in architecture is eventually short sighted – it will produce a product that gives quick and basic functionality to a fairly large user base, but while a technology relies on installing separate software it will be inherently limited to the platforms and therefore users that the company decides to support and will only be useful for as long as the company decides to support it. In the long run the only sustainable development will be in the technology get natively supported within the application.

Answer 22

I would really love to see SVG supported in IE8. We need SVG (for in-house developments), and we will be "locked" on Firefox as long as SVG isn't natively available on IE.

Still wondering why this standard isn't support in IE7,

Best regards,
Joannes
Lokad sales forecasting

Answer 23

I am taking a class on SVG and just decided to try and see what browsers support SVG. i knew already that IE does not. Here I am after being apalled to find out that every major browser - Firefox, Safari, Chrome, Opera, Konqueror, Epiphany, all have support for SVG built-in.

This is truly staggering, especially when I then found this thread which is 2-year-old but still active and still no word from Mircosoft.

Let's all go to the IE8 blog and let Microsoft know that we want them to support open standards and are willing to hold them accountable for all their claims of moving towards being a more open company ans backing open standards.

To post a message to the Microsoft IE team go here:

http://blogs.msdn.com/ie/contact.aspx

I urge everyone to visit this link and send microsoft a message about SVG.

Answer 24

I used to work at Microsoft (for about 10 years) and fought with them almost constantly about meeting customer needs.  About the only time I could win the argument is to show them how much money was at stake or if there was some massive public embarrassment.  (IMO, they didn't seem to care if it was the 'right' thing to do or not.)


So, here's my question:  Othe than a different browser, is there a free application that can view and print an SVG file?  I have one that I need to print.

Answer 25

Yes, there are a couple applications supporting SVG and printing, check InkScape.

Best regards,
Joannes Vermorel
Lokad sales forecasting

Answer 26

nikolay botev said:

I am taking a class on SVG and just decided to try and see what browsers support SVG. i knew already that IE does not. Here I am after being apalled to find out that every major browser - Firefox, Safari, Chrome, Opera, Konqueror, Epiphany, all have support for SVG built-in.

Jeff, who works on the SVG working group has an interesting page regarding implementations of SVG.

SVG Support Table

"Does anyone else notice the elephant in the living room?"

Answer 27

I forgot to check last night when I downloaded IE8 - did M$FT finally decide to support it in their latest browser?

Answer 28

Sick Freak said:

I forgot to check last night when I downloaded IE8 - did M$FT finally decide to support it in their latest browser?

Did Silverlight get canned?

Answer 29

Hum, for information Adobe is discontinuing its support for the SVG Viewer starting from January 1st, 2009. Thus, at present time, there is virtually no more maintained way to get IE8 compatible with a standard of primary importance such as SVG.

Does anyone has some info about the IE9?

Thanks in advance,
Joannes Vermorel
Lokad sales forecasting

Answer 30

Now I see that Microsoft will support SVG in IE9.

Thanks a lot

Good decision

---

http://www.amilto.com

Answer 31

well, it will be in there in IE9

http://samples.msdn.microsoft.com/ietestcenter/#svg11e2

Lionel

Answer 32

This is quite simple really - Silverlight.

Microsoft will not support SVG natively ever because they now want people to start using their own Silverlight product. The similarities between the proposed SVG 1.2 and Silverlight are quite staggering. SVG 1.1 already implements almost everything Silverlight can do (excluding embedding of video and audio etc). SVG already comprehensively covers all areas of drawing, animation, interactivity and scripting. It supports the full DOM model in the same sense as html, and supports full ECMA Script (JavaScript).

The reason Microsoft is not support this therefore, is because they know that they can push their own Silverlight product which is essentially the same thing as SVG 1.2 but without any of the standards support and distribute it under the pretence of supporting all 'major' platforms (Windows, OSX, IE, Firefox, Safari - but not on Linux) with a closed source plug-in. So, this presents developers with a problem: do you develop your website using the open SVG format which CAN be supported on any platform because it is an open standard, but IS not supported by Internet Explorer which immediately alienates over 50% of your users, or use the Silverlight plug-in which is maintained by Microsoft for a good majority of browsers but is not an open standard.

There it is, Microsoft will not support SVG because they know they can keep better control by forcing the use of their own Silverlight product.

I know that there is currently open source implementation or Silverlight (called Moonlight) but this will always be a case of just trying to re-engineer the Microsoft format rather than from an open standard which will always leave Microsoft in ultimate control of the market. There is also some other interesting projects currently in progress – there’s the Batik project which is a full implementation of SVG1.1 in java, there is also the Renesis project which is developing a new proprietary SVG player which will work as a plug-in for Internet Explorer.

Thanks for your sharing! I got more deep understanding about this part.

Answer 33

 IE9 Does not fully support SVG.  It is only limited. Google and Mozilla have it all covered. In the latter 2 I can embed images, enter metadata, xlink, the whole shabang.  IE9 is crap.   SVG has been a W3.org standard since 1999.  Time for Microsoft to support it fully.

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