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Download CCR?

    Question

  • Greetings - I attended the 2008 PDC, and went to George's talk "TL55: The Concurrency and Coordination Runtime and Decentralized Software Services Toolkit".  During that talk he announced that both CCR and DSS would be released seperate from the Robotics Studio - needless to say I was very pleased.  He also pointed us to a new URL: http://www.microsoft.com/ccrdss.

    I expected to be able to download the CCR, however, I can find no such download.  All I see is a way to purchase the toolkit.  Does this mean CCR must be purchased?  I can understand the need to purchase DSS, as it is similar to a server platform - however, it makes no sense to do that to the CCR.

    Please tell me I will be able to use the CCR in my applications without having to purchase a toolkit!

    Thanks - Jordan
    Tuesday, November 04, 2008 7:08 PM

Answers

  • Jordan,

     

    Thanks for your input, but let me clarify a few things. First, CCR was initially launched in Microsoft Robotics Studio. CCR & DSS Toolkit is a new SKU that offers these technologies now without the robotics components.

     

    While our robotics toolkit SKU (Microsoft Robotics Studio) was freely downloadable for non-commercial usage, the licensing policy has been that commercial deployment of CCR (and DSS) required purchase of a commercial license which provides a limit of 200 copies per commercial license. So a commercial license conveyed a developer seat license and only a limited CCR-DSS runtime redistribution at the cost of $399.

     

    The license in our new CCR & DSS Toolkit offers a better deal in that its license includes unlimited redistribution of CCR and DSS.

     

    So yes, there is a cost associated with CCR and DSS Toolkit, but there also is for Visual Studio. As you suggest while the .Net Framework may be free, Visual Studio is not. (Note that the Parallel Extensions to .Net are in CTP right now and a comparison there may be premature.)

     

    It is true that Visual Studio currently offers Express versions at no charge. And shortly we will be releasing Microsoft Robotics Developer Studio 2008 Express Edition, which includes the same CCR and DSS runtime bits as the CCR & DSS Toolkit. So commercial developers will have the option of developing using CCR and DSS at no charge very soon.

     

    Note also that CCR and DSS Toolkit will also be available through Microsoft's academic licensing program which provides access to Microsoft products at reduced or no charge to qualified academic institutions for their students and faculty.

     

    As to the issue of CCR redistribution, note that the .Net Framework is currently included as a part of Windows. Hence it makes sense that there is no redistribution charge for it. If CCR and DSS get integrated into the core of .Net (as we are working on) then this may effect their licensing policy.

     

    In summary, the new CCR and DSS Toolkit offers a more generous license than the existing Microsoft Robotics Studio 1.5 commercial license by including unlimited redistribution of CCR and DSS. Those who wish to try CCR without purchasing the CCR and DSS Toolkit (or the upcoming Microsoft Robotics Developer Studio Standard Edition) will be able to do that very soon by downloading the upcoming Express Edition of Microsoft Robotics Developer Studio (which installs the CCR And DSS libraries as CCR and DSS Toolkit). And if you also wish to avoid purchasing the toolkit for distribution of your CCR applications, you could advise customers to download that and they will get CCR installed.

     

    We believe the CCR and DSS Toolkit is worthy of its price. The toolkit also includes the full implementation of our Visual Programming Language, the DSS Manifest Editor, and a lot more. Consider that the unlimited CCR and DSS runtime is just another of those benefits.  However, if you want to avoid paying for it just to use CCR, shortly you will be able to.

     

    Again, thanks for your feedback!

     

    Regards,

     

    Tandy

    .

     

    Thursday, November 06, 2008 6:43 PM

All replies

  • CCR and DSS are sold as package. DSS is not much use without CCR :-)

     

    You will find a copy of Robotics Developer Studio Express Edition on the disk that you were given at PDC. This contains CCR and DSS and might be the easiest way to install it. This edition is free for non-commercial use. Just be aware that this was a late CTP, not the final V2.0 because of the deadlines we had to meet to get it on the disk. However, I doubt that you will notice any difference in CCR.

     

    If you plan to use CCR in a product then you should purchase a copy. You pay only for developer licenses, and you can then redistribute the runtime in your product for free. This is explained on the web site in the licensing information.

     

    If it is only for personal use, then you will need to install Robotics Studio which contains the same core components. The Express Edition is free, but the final V2.0 has not been posted to the web yet.

     

    Trevor

     

    Wednesday, November 05, 2008 5:16 AM
    Owner
  • Honestly, I think it is a huge mistake to charge for the CCR API - the adoption of the CCR into developer's toolkits will be significantly lower.  I believe the CCR should be just like the .NET Framework BCL, and DSS should be sold as a development platform.  Those who gain exposure to CCR (as a result of it being freely available), would be able to transfer that knowledge into using (and thus buying) DSS.

    As it stands, I now have to look at alternative API to accomplish something that *would* have worked beautifully with CCR.

    - Jordan
    Wednesday, November 05, 2008 3:47 PM
  • I don't know how the new licensing was decided. However, just so it is clear, you *can* evaluate CCR and DSS for free by installing the new Robotics Developer Studio Express Edition. It does not matter if you are a commercial organization, you can still install Express at no cost. You will notice during installation that it installs CCR and DSS separately. This is the same code as in the Toolkit. Just ignore all the robotics stuff.

     

    Once you have prototyped your application and you are convinced that CCR will work for you, then you need to buy a CCR and DSS Toolkit license - one per developer. If you have hundreds of developers, talk to us! Volume licensing is available.

     

    The CCR and DSS Toolkit license allows unlimited redistribution of the toolkit as part of your product. The Express Edition does *not* include redistribution rights.

     

    I hope this will not stop you from evaluating CCR for your application.

     

    Trevor

     

     

    Wednesday, November 05, 2008 7:02 PM
    Owner
  • I have multiple potential uses for the CCR (not DSS).  One is commercial; the other is a non-commercial, but distributed (as-in give the software to people for free) product.  From what I understand neither scenario is permitted without purchasing the CCR.

    Can someone (if not you, Trevor) speak to why you have to purchase the CCR API for either non-commercial+distributed or commercial applications?  Why are you not following the same model of say the Parallel Extensions, or more broadly the .NET Framework BCL?  Doing so would only strengthen adoption of the CCR API (which the model has some strengths over the TPL), and that would result in a developer base that better understood the API upon which DSS is founded on - thus you are more likely to drive sales of DSS.

    At this point I've still stopped evaluating CCR as an option - the licensing model if more complicated than I'm willing to accept.  However, when I can download Ccr.Core.dll as a seperatly licensed, *freely* available component, you can bet I will use it for many projects, both commercial and non-commercial.

    Thanks for your responses Trevor.

    - Jordan
    Wednesday, November 05, 2008 9:42 PM
  • Jordan,

     

    Thanks for your input, but let me clarify a few things. First, CCR was initially launched in Microsoft Robotics Studio. CCR & DSS Toolkit is a new SKU that offers these technologies now without the robotics components.

     

    While our robotics toolkit SKU (Microsoft Robotics Studio) was freely downloadable for non-commercial usage, the licensing policy has been that commercial deployment of CCR (and DSS) required purchase of a commercial license which provides a limit of 200 copies per commercial license. So a commercial license conveyed a developer seat license and only a limited CCR-DSS runtime redistribution at the cost of $399.

     

    The license in our new CCR & DSS Toolkit offers a better deal in that its license includes unlimited redistribution of CCR and DSS.

     

    So yes, there is a cost associated with CCR and DSS Toolkit, but there also is for Visual Studio. As you suggest while the .Net Framework may be free, Visual Studio is not. (Note that the Parallel Extensions to .Net are in CTP right now and a comparison there may be premature.)

     

    It is true that Visual Studio currently offers Express versions at no charge. And shortly we will be releasing Microsoft Robotics Developer Studio 2008 Express Edition, which includes the same CCR and DSS runtime bits as the CCR & DSS Toolkit. So commercial developers will have the option of developing using CCR and DSS at no charge very soon.

     

    Note also that CCR and DSS Toolkit will also be available through Microsoft's academic licensing program which provides access to Microsoft products at reduced or no charge to qualified academic institutions for their students and faculty.

     

    As to the issue of CCR redistribution, note that the .Net Framework is currently included as a part of Windows. Hence it makes sense that there is no redistribution charge for it. If CCR and DSS get integrated into the core of .Net (as we are working on) then this may effect their licensing policy.

     

    In summary, the new CCR and DSS Toolkit offers a more generous license than the existing Microsoft Robotics Studio 1.5 commercial license by including unlimited redistribution of CCR and DSS. Those who wish to try CCR without purchasing the CCR and DSS Toolkit (or the upcoming Microsoft Robotics Developer Studio Standard Edition) will be able to do that very soon by downloading the upcoming Express Edition of Microsoft Robotics Developer Studio (which installs the CCR And DSS libraries as CCR and DSS Toolkit). And if you also wish to avoid purchasing the toolkit for distribution of your CCR applications, you could advise customers to download that and they will get CCR installed.

     

    We believe the CCR and DSS Toolkit is worthy of its price. The toolkit also includes the full implementation of our Visual Programming Language, the DSS Manifest Editor, and a lot more. Consider that the unlimited CCR and DSS runtime is just another of those benefits.  However, if you want to avoid paying for it just to use CCR, shortly you will be able to.

     

    Again, thanks for your feedback!

     

    Regards,

     

    Tandy

    .

     

    Thursday, November 06, 2008 6:43 PM
  • Tandy - Thanks for you response.

    I want to be sure that I'm clear - I certainly see the value in paying for the Visual Programming Language, the DSS Manifest Editor, and DSS in general.  I completely agree with the licensing costs there - it just makes sense.  Really what I was focusing my comments on was the CCR (Ccr.Core.dll), and how it is shackled by the same license as DSS et al.

    As you well know, the CCR is a fairly simple, yet powerful API model that I think has very broad applicability just doing coordination within, for example, custom enterprise applications authored in .NET.  I am very happy to hear that eventually the CCR will be released under a license that will make it freely available, and I'm even happier to hear that you are working to include it in the .NET framework.

    Thanks again for your response, and please know I have to utmost respect for CCR/DSS team's work!

    Regards - Jordan


    Thursday, November 06, 2008 7:08 PM