locked
Windows 8 Start Button

    General discussion

  • I'm not sure why the admins chose to close THE most active thread here, but they asked that we open another one to continue the discussion, so here it is.

     

    I'm a developer, and I'm looking at the Windows 8 Developer Preview.

     

    Windows 8 is pretty loudly making the statement that this is how we're supposed to work (note, I did not say play) from here into the future:

     

    1.  Click Start.

    2.  The screen is replaced by the Metro interface, which instantly hides the entire Aero Desktop and all our apps, word processors, web pages, etc.

    3.  Select an application, which may or may not be a Metro application, by poking the screen.

    4.  Assuming it's a Metro application it comes up full-screen, with 48 point type, and we fool with it for a while.

    5.  Then we CANNOT close it when we're done, but rather we have to do Alt-Tab or a gesture or something to get back to our desktop, where we start all over again.

     

    Does ANYONE think this is really how people who need to use computers to do real, serious work want it to be?

     

    Steven Sinofsky has stated that we're all used to jumping from disparate web page to web page already, so clearly we can adapt to anything the system throws up in front of us, and of course it follows that we need to see less on the screen at any one time.  Did he forget that not everyone is using a computer to surf the web?

     

    Maybe Microsoft makes more money from 400 million casual users than from 100 million who use Windows to do real work, and figures they could eclipse the latter figure entirely by getting another 100+ million kids or whomever to use it on their handheld devices...

     

    Is this a clear signal that Microsoft no longer wants to be in the Operating System business for real computers?

     

    I have a suggestion for a new name for the product:  Microsoft Window 8.

     

    -Noel

    Friday, September 16, 2011 5:08 PM

All replies

  • While I'm not going to agree or disagree with how Microsoft has decided to take Windows with version 8, I can say that the UI does make sense when using a mobile form factor. Maybe that’s more in line of what they’re thinking at this point.


    The Metro UI is ideal for mobile devices (tablet and phone). From what I gather you’re not testing Windows 8 on a mobile device, correct? If that’s the case, then I’m right there with you that the Metro UI is not conducive to productivity in the desktop form factor.

     
    I agree that there is definitely some work to be done. However I doubt Microsoft is showing its full hand right now. My belief is that they want to get this out to developers so they can start developing for their mobile platform, and less for desktop applications.

     
    I expect we’ll see a clearer vision during their beta release. My hope is that Windows 8 will be able to ‘sense’ that I want to work in a mobile touch-centric way versus a more traditional keyboard-and-mouse way

    • Edited by LiquidSpy Friday, September 16, 2011 5:57 PM
    Friday, September 16, 2011 5:56 PM
  • Thank you for your feedback.  We are always glad to hear of your experiences with Windows Developer Preview and ideas to improve it.


    Greg - Microsoft Support Engineer
    Friday, September 16, 2011 6:03 PM
  • Thank you for your feedback.  We are always glad to hear of your experiences with Windows Developer Preview and ideas to improve it.


    Greg - Microsoft Support Engineer


    At this stage, my two biggest issues are:

    1. - No Start Menu in the Desktop interface.
    2. - Can't "close" Metro apps.

    There's no need for me to harp on my reasons as I've done that in other threads.  Basically I see that Windows 8 has an opportunity to fill two markets.  Those with what I consider "real" computers.  (i.e. - Everyone running Windows XP, Vista, Win7)  And those running the "sort of" computers.  (i.e. - iPad users.)  I think Windows 8 can fulfill both these areas, but if you don't make the Desktop interface function as well as Windows 7 (i.e. - Start Menu), Microsoft is terribly missing the mark and Windows 8 is a step backwards from Windows 7.  The Metro interface for millions of us that have real computers, just doesn't get it done.  I don't mind it being in there, but to run my real apps, real games, etc. I'll be using Desktop interface only.  Please consider making both interfaces as functional and easy to choose & use as possible.

    Friday, September 16, 2011 6:17 PM
  • im still kind of mad because they toke the start button out. Everytime i start up windows i still click it. I use it a lot to be honest. It was an easy to get to programs and shut down as well. I really don't know what else to say as i could ramble on but other than the start menu button gone windows 8 is still going pretty well
    I love testing out very buggy systems. Favorite OS: Windows Whistler. Consoles: Xbox 360, Wii, PSP, Gamecube, PC
    Friday, September 16, 2011 6:22 PM
  • Yes, I'm testing on a typical developer desktop system.  Sorry I wasn't clear about that.

     

    I'm not sure this is a case where one paradigm can fit all.

     

    -Noel

    Friday, September 16, 2011 6:27 PM
  • Just a random thought, but for developers of Metro apps wouldn't it be grand if we could have the Metro interface in a window?

    -Noel

    Friday, September 16, 2011 6:30 PM
  • Just a random thought, but for developers of Metro apps wouldn't it be grand if we could have the Metro interface in a window?

    -Noel

    That would be quite handy. Now we just have to wait for someone to develop that :D 
    I love testing out very buggy systems. Favorite OS: Windows Whistler. Consoles: Xbox 360, Wii, PSP, Gamecube, PC
    Friday, September 16, 2011 6:31 PM
  • There is, of course, the ability to use a Virtual Machine for the task - or just have a tablet-based PC handy that integrates over the LAN with the development host.

    -Noel

    Friday, September 16, 2011 6:34 PM
  • I am using a tablet with 2 points multi-touch. But I do want to have the real START button back and a close button.
    Friday, September 16, 2011 6:40 PM
  • I'm not sure why the admins chose to close THE most active thread here, but they asked that we open another one to continue the discussion, so here it is.

     

    I'm a developer, and I'm looking at the Windows 8 Developer Preview.

     

    Windows 8 is pretty loudly making the statement that this is how we're supposed to work (note, I did not say play) from here into the future:

     

    1.  Click Start.

    2.  The screen is replaced by the Metro interface, which instantly hides the entire Aero Desktop and all our apps, word processors, web pages, etc.

    3.  Select an application, which may or may not be a Metro application, by poking the screen.

    4.  Assuming it's a Metro application it comes up full-screen, with 48 point type, and we fool with it for a while.

    5.  Then we CANNOT close it when we're done, but rather we have to do Alt-Tab or a gesture or something to get back to our desktop, where we start all over again.

     

    Does ANYONE think this is really how people who need to use computers to do real, serious work want it to be?

     

    Steven Sinofsky has stated that we're all used to jumping from disparate web page to web page already, so clearly we can adapt to anything the system throws up in front of us, and of course it follows that we need to see less on the screen at any one time.  Did he forget that not everyone is using a computer to surf the web?

     

    Maybe Microsoft makes more money from 400 million casual users than from 100 million who use Windows to do real work, and figures they could eclipse the latter figure entirely by getting another 100+ million kids or whomever to use it on their handheld devices...

     

    Is this a clear signal that Microsoft no longer wants to be in the Operating System business for real computers?

     

    I have a suggestion for a new name for the product:  Microsoft Window 8.

     

    -Noel

    I totally agree with you. I just loaded it up, .... it took a while to find the desktop, then when I did find it, I hit start, and it took me back to Metro.  Great, so how do I launch multiple applications and use them all at the same time.  Tablets are still just for play, or reading email, when I want to get real work down, I still need a keyboard and mouse, and I have MANY windows open at the same time and bounce back and forth between them constantly.  It also took a lot of time to find the shutdown/restart button.  Start on the desktop should be the same as it is in Windows 7.  Metro can be a fun add-on if I'm running a tablet or smart phone.. or whatever, but when I'm on a desktop or laptop, I need the Desktop to be what it is so I can work.

    Window 8 won't work for me, my enterprise, or my 20,000+ users,  I need Windows 8.  Don't make Windows compete with the iPad, then forget that Apple still has OS X.

    Friday, September 16, 2011 7:50 PM
  • On Fri, 16 Sep 2011 19:50:14 +0000, Rob-HPC wrote:

    Window 8 won't work for me, my enterprise, or my 20,000+ users, ?I need*Windows* 8. ?Don't make Windows compete with the iPad, then forget that Apple still has OS X.

    The Windows 8 *Developer* Preview isn't aimed at you, the IT guy. It is
    aimed at well, the developers out there.

    With 20K users, I'm assuming you have a TAM, if so, speak to him or her
    about getting involved in whatever TAP/beta program MSFT may be planning.


    Paul Adare
    MVP - Identity Lifecycle Manager
    http://www.identit.ca
    To err is human; to forgive, beyond the scope of the Operating System.

    Friday, September 16, 2011 7:55 PM
  • Few observations/points:

    - We see the apps are pinned automatically, which should be left to user as whether they want it to be pinned or not

    - Also, in case I want to unpin the apps I have to right click and click 'Unpin' icon; I should be able to do it for more than one apps at a time

    - In IE, download window spans across the screen whereas all other tool bars and ribbons etc are hidden; does not makes sense

    - for all apps/window there is no option on the desktop or any where to know where the application is so that I can either minimize it or pull in front...Alt Tab is good but not always 

    Friday, September 16, 2011 9:07 PM
  • I'm not sure why the admins chose to close THE most active thread here, but they asked that we open another one to continue the discussion, so here it is.

     

    I'm a developer, and I'm looking at the Windows 8 Developer Preview.

     

    Windows 8 is pretty loudly making the statement that this is how we're supposed to work (note, I did not say play) from here into the future:

     

    1.  Click Start.

    2.  The screen is replaced by the Metro interface, which instantly hides the entire Aero Desktop and all our apps, word processors, web pages, etc.

    3.  Select an application, which may or may not be a Metro application, by poking the screen.

    4.  Assuming it's a Metro application it comes up full-screen, with 48 point type, and we fool with it for a while.

    5.  Then we CANNOT close it when we're done, but rather we have to do Alt-Tab or a gesture or something to get back to our desktop, where we start all over again.

     

    Does ANYONE think this is really how people who need to use computers to do real, serious work want it to be?

     

    Steven Sinofsky has stated that we're all used to jumping from disparate web page to web page already, so clearly we can adapt to anything the system throws up in front of us, and of course it follows that we need to see less on the screen at any one time.  Did he forget that not everyone is using a computer to surf the web?

     

    Maybe Microsoft makes more money from 400 million casual users than from 100 million who use Windows to do real work, and figures they could eclipse the latter figure entirely by getting another 100+ million kids or whomever to use it on their handheld devices...

     

    Is this a clear signal that Microsoft no longer wants to be in the Operating System business for real computers?

     

    I have a suggestion for a new name for the product:  Microsoft Window 8.

     

    -Noel


    Noel, you took the words right out of my mouth.

    I fully agree with you.

    It will never find it's way to any of my machines - see my posts.

    Friday, September 16, 2011 9:13 PM
  • Here is a concept of desktop start menu I made:

     

    http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa46/pra_viilon/start-menu-concept.png

    hope you like it.

    Monday, September 19, 2011 2:20 PM
  • I'm not sure why the admins chose to close THE most active thread here, but they asked that we open another one to continue the discussion, so here it is.

     

    I'm a developer, and I'm looking at the Windows 8 Developer Preview.

     

    Windows 8 is pretty loudly making the statement that this is how we're supposed to work (note, I did not say play) from here into the future:

     

    1.  Click Start.

    2.  The screen is replaced by the Metro interface, which instantly hides the entire Aero Desktop and all our apps, word processors, web pages, etc.

    3.  Select an application, which may or may not be a Metro application, by poking the screen.

    4.  Assuming it's a Metro application it comes up full-screen, with 48 point type, and we fool with it for a while.

    5.  Then we CANNOT close it when we're done, but rather we have to do Alt-Tab or a gesture or something to get back to our desktop, where we start all over again.

     

    Does ANYONE think this is really how people who need to use computers to do real, serious work want it to be?

     

    Steven Sinofsky has stated that we're all used to jumping from disparate web page to web page already, so clearly we can adapt to anything the system throws up in front of us, and of course it follows that we need to see less on the screen at any one time.  Did he forget that not everyone is using a computer to surf the web?

     

    Maybe Microsoft makes more money from 400 million casual users than from 100 million who use Windows to do real work, and figures they could eclipse the latter figure entirely by getting another 100+ million kids or whomever to use it on their handheld devices...

     

    Is this a clear signal that Microsoft no longer wants to be in the Operating System business for real computers?

     

    I have a suggestion for a new name for the product:  Microsoft Window 8.

     

    -Noel


    I feel your pain.  :-)

    I summarized my own thoughts on this in another thread I started this afternoon:  http://social.msdn.microsoft.com/Forums/en-US/windowsdeveloperpreviewgeneral/thread/e0422fdf-6cc4-4ea3-ae67-eb5683cd05ea

    There really should be a notion of win8 being "desktop aware" or something off the sorts...  I view win7 as the perfect accumulation of 15 years of GUI development and improvement.  I have never been on a platform that allows the same kind of productivity (on a non-touch enabled desktop).  After playing around with win8 for a small week... it heavily feels like taking 20 steps back.  I'm talking pre-xp days here...

    Monday, September 19, 2011 2:48 PM
  • Thanks for the feedback, everyone.  Keep it coming!

     

    There's something unwritten going on here...  We get so little communication from Microsoft about what they're planning (and thus what we have to plan for) that we all are reading a huge amount from this pre-release, desperately trying to divine the future policies of computing as we know it.

     

    I just don't think it's possible to steer everyone away from a multi-window desktop to using simple one-per-screen applets that deliver little value (one measure of value being how much code it takes to write an app).  An applet that mashes together data from several sources quickly and puts it up in 48 point type on a colored tile could hardly be considered something a serious user would really need, and I think the billionaire management at Microsoft is smarter than to think Metro could be the end-all.

     

    I'm really starting to believe, reading a LOT between the lines here, that the Windows 8 desktop will be alive and well, and the Metro desktop will be available for some systems or under some configurations.  I doubt very much that the highly refined and excellent Start Menu that can still be exposed if the Red Pill option is disabled is just going to be thrown away.

     

    Might be kind of nice if Mr. Sinofsky would actually say something about this.

     

    -Noel

    Monday, September 19, 2011 9:50 PM
  • Two points for the concern are:

    1. - No Start Menu in the Desktop interface.

    Reason: It will provide more user control and ease the keyboard users.

    2. - Can't "close" Metro apps.

    Reason :we can't tab the whole list of apps including which are suspended.

    So, My question is that :

    Can I hope for start button in beta version? 

     

    Monday, September 19, 2011 10:48 PM
  • Thanks for the feedback, everyone.  Keep it coming!

     

    There's something unwritten going on here...  We get so little communication from Microsoft about what they're planning (and thus what we have to plan for) that we all are reading a huge amount from this pre-release, desperately trying to divine the future policies of computing as we know it.

     

    I just don't think it's possible to steer everyone away from a multi-window desktop to using simple one-per-screen applets that deliver little value (one measure of value being how much code it takes to write an app).  An applet that mashes together data from several sources quickly and puts it up in 48 point type on a colored tile could hardly be considered something a serious user would really need, and I think the billionaire management at Microsoft is smarter than to think Metro could be the end-all.

     

    I'm really starting to believe, reading a LOT between the lines here, that the Windows 8 desktop will be alive and well, and the Metro desktop will be available for some systems or under some configurations.  I doubt very much that the highly refined and excellent Start Menu that can still be exposed if the Red Pill option is disabled is just going to be thrown away.

     

    Might be kind of nice if Mr. Sinofsky would actually say something about this.

     

    -Noel

    We do get an extremely little amount of information from MS about Windows 8, that's for sure - and because of that we have to rely entirely on the pre-release for our opinions. But we can't be sure what MS has up their sleeve.

    Also, your opinion on Metro-style apps is a bit flawed. I doubt that Microsoft is trying to say that to use Metro for your apps you need to be ridiculously simple and you can't have a powerful, muti-faceted UI. Think about this: what do you think Microsoft is spending the most time on? Pre-release apps that will likely never see release, or the actual OS? I'm hoping for the latter. These apps aren't shown to display how you can work on your device; they are there to display the potential, power, and beauty of the operating system. Developers are to fill in the gaps.

    You could never use an application like Photoshop with a UI similar to the other Metro-style apps presented in Windows 8. It just wouldn't be feasible. But the apps don't have to be similar to the ones included in this Developer Preview

     

    However, the current idea of Metro presented here does certainly give a bad impression. It doesn't seem like a powerful UI at all for people who have actually used a conventional desktop UI. There are a lot of issues that everyone here has mentioned.

    1. Lack of a proper multi-tasking UI. The Snap-to-fit feature doesn't work properly at all - I haven't used it once as it doesn't provide me with a reasonable amount of information (and you cannot share properly between the desktop and Metro). It's just broken and the single-window experience isn't that great for workflow.

    I don't want to have to constantly switch between the Desktop and it's multitasking interface and Metro and it's multitasking interface just to get something done! It isn't easy to do so, either, as the Desktop is just another app in Metro. This is fine, but it needs a special place, definitely. Metro isn't flexible enough to warrant anybody using it entirely over the Desktop. It just doesn't work. 

    The multitasking UI needs to be unified across both interfaces for them to mesh properly. A hide-able taskbar across all of Metro and the Desktop could do the trick (in the new UI style, of course. I like it).

    2. No Start button with sub-folders, etc. Of course, the UI could definitely be simplified and enhanced here - what about a live-tile based start menu? That would be flexible, powerful, and still useful all at the same time.

    3. I CAN'T SHUT OFF MY COMPUTER symptoms across the userbase. It is really sad when you have to look up simply how to shut down your PC (although I myself didn't, I may have come across it somewhere here). This needs to be made way, way more apparent.

    4. This is a really major one:

    There's no way to quit an application!

    This has been mentioned time and time again by many people here (including yourself, Noel), so I won't go into details. At the very least, provide with some way to close an app from the multi-tasking UI while keeping is suspended. I'd also like an easy way to completely close apps, but for the average user that wants speed switching between apps over additional processing power it could get unnecessarily complicated.

    Anyway, that's my 2 cents (or maybe a bit more than that, heh heh).



    • Edited by Walkop Tuesday, September 20, 2011 1:08 AM
    Tuesday, September 20, 2011 1:04 AM
  • Here is a concept of desktop start menu I made:

    http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa46/pra_viilon/start-menu-concept.png

    hope you like it.

    That looks strangely familiar. Throughout this year I've seen various posts around with screenshots of earlier leaked builds, and I'm wondering if I saw something similar to it there. I'm not going to remember now in any case, but maybe someone else will. Is it possible that MS previously had a hybrid design there?

    I know MS is very, very stubborn about what it will change at this "late" (a year out) stage, but there were some hard-fought victories in W7, so I expect a working Start menu option in Desktop will come for W8. And if it doesn't, you absolutely know that someone else will provide one (maybe even MS via a Reg hack that doesn't cripple other aspects of the OS).

    Without Start, I feel hamstrung in Desktop.

    Tuesday, September 20, 2011 4:48 AM
  • Well everything will change
    Saturday, November 19, 2011 4:15 AM