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Windows 8 Start Button

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  • Why have you completely replaced the Windows 8 start button with the metro style start screen?  I am an IT employee and very much enjoy quick access to various programs and the command prompt via commands and program names typed in the windows 7 search box and I really like this feature.  Will there be a run box at least?
    Wednesday, September 14, 2011 2:01 PM

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  • Well, I hate this immature design as well, since the system icons (control panel, search, even shut down) are not available on the desktop by default and the only direct way to start a program is with the start menu, which is removed. They should at least put an option to switch between the conventional start menu and the new start screen or this would be troublesome for previous PC user. By the way, the hotkey for run box is Win+R, as usual, but Win+F has been completely replaced by the start screen-based search optimised for tablets.
    Wednesday, September 14, 2011 2:10 PM
  • Pressing the windows key and 'R' still seems to work for the run box. I too, though, would like to be able to get at the windows 7 style start menu - especially for non-metro programs. Navigating the metro start screen with a track ball is particularly annoying.
    Wednesday, September 14, 2011 2:12 PM
  • In an enterprise environment, if you can't enable the traditional start menu like in Win7, then this will be a huge barrier to Win8 deployment.

    If you think users freaked out over the ribbon in Office, just wait until they are forced to use the Metro start screen.

    How will the Metro start screen be centrally managed? How will shortcuts be added, modified or deleted?

    I personally have dozens of scripts that I launch through custom folders I've created in my Win7 start menu, but will this be supported with the Metro start screen?

    Even worse, switching to the Metro start screen is MUCH SLOWER than using the Win7 start menu.

    Finally, there is simply the principle of choice: if we don't want such a drastic change, it shouldn't be forced down our throats when it would be easy for Microsoft to make this a configurable option.  If MS wants the Metro start screen to be the default, that's fine (though bad design), as long as we can change it. 

    Frankly, *if* the Metro start screen is compulsory and there's no way to turn the Win7 start menu back on, it feels like Microsoft is desperately grasping at something to make Win8 "different" than Win7 in order to justify the upgrade -- after all, what is truly new or useful in an enterprise environment on non-touch computers?  To be fair, we don't have the final version of Win8, or even the final list of features, but why should a corporation upgrade from Win7 to Win8? Microsoft needs to make this argument and I hope they will have good things to say.

    Wednesday, September 14, 2011 2:19 PM
  • They should definitely give the users the ability to have windows run like the typical windows. I know they want to change the way windows runs and operates and wants to make it tablet friendly but people don't like change. This metro style is horrible. I hate windows phone 7 and I hate this Metro. I can see many people wanting normal functionality if they are installing this on a desktop

    Also is it me but not having an X button in the metro windows is kind of discouraging. How do you close a metro window?

    • Edited by locus2k Wednesday, September 14, 2011 2:26 PM
    Wednesday, September 14, 2011 2:25 PM
  • If you are inside the Metro interface you can just start typing and it will go in search mode.

     

    So Win key + cmd + Enter will still start the command prompt.

    Wednesday, September 14, 2011 2:29 PM
  • Initially, it was a bit jarring to see the new Start menu.  It is still a Start menu, just different.  You can still press Win key and start typing to find your programs, press Win-R to get the run dialog.  Sure, it is a "bold" change but it looks manageable.
    Wednesday, September 14, 2011 2:39 PM
  • Its far from being manageable. Try having almost 600 employees (with just basic pc user knowledge) that will have to be retrained into doing something as trivial as starting a program and launching other programs.

     

    Try explaining to them that, when you press the Windows Key (which, took quite some time to get used to) is NOT closing your program (although it does take the whole screen now).

     

    How about telling them that they have to scroll to the side because, well, one screen apparently isn't enough to show what programs you have or not, when before it didnt take more than a corner of the screen.

     

    From a usability POV, this basically kills ANY chance corporate costumers have of deploying this. Its absolutely ludicrous how such a change could go through internally at microsoft. Don't they like making money?

     

    Its GREAT for tablets. It SUCKS for anything else, specially desktops. I don't want to lose what i'm doing in visual studio out of my sight just to open calculator.

     

    The start menu paradigm has been around for decades, because, well, it works! This, on the other hand, works fine for touch/tablets only. Saying mouse/keyboard works fine with it is like saying you can go on vacations driving a truck instead of your family car (you can, but its -wrong-).

     

    Please, just give a way to opt out of it completely - the rest of the features are great.

    Wednesday, September 14, 2011 2:54 PM
  • My first response was this is cool but how do I get the regular start menu back for work.

     

    http://www.neowin.net/news/windows-8-how-to-re-enable-the-classic-start-menu

     

     

    Wednesday, September 14, 2011 2:59 PM
  • Thank you!
    Wednesday, September 14, 2011 3:05 PM
  • My first response was this is cool but how do I get the regular start menu back for work.

     

    http://www.neowin.net/news/windows-8-how-to-re-enable-the-classic-start-menu

     

     

    The way propsed there kills the explorer ribbon. Just rename c:\windows\system32\shsxs.dll to something else, and you get rid of metro and retain the ribbon.
    Wednesday, September 14, 2011 3:05 PM
  • agreed, my first instinct was "okay, cool" but the more I worked with it, it got annoying.  I just wanted my Win 7 "look" back.
    Wednesday, September 14, 2011 3:06 PM
  • My first response was this is cool but how do I get the regular start menu back for work.

     

    http://www.neowin.net/news/windows-8-how-to-re-enable-the-classic-start-menu

    thanks. Nice trick. But I think this disables more new features. RP = Red Pill, the key to hide the new features...

    "A programmer is just a tool which converts caffeine into code"

    Wednesday, September 14, 2011 3:10 PM
  • Don't get me wrong I do like the Metro start screen but I would like to see the two used in conjunction, as opposed to one or the other. I am guessing for now they just want people to focus on the metro stuff. Having the metro start screen up on a second monitor is actually really nice I am guessing once you have a whole bunch of apps with notifications on them it will be a very nice way to get a quick glance at a lot of useful information. Lock screen is really nice too!
    Wednesday, September 14, 2011 3:10 PM
  • None of you seem to be embracing change.  You're following the stereotypical tech oldy.  Stuck in your ways.   I prefer the tiles.  They present MUCH more active information than a static list of shortcuts.  You have to give them some credit for innovating.
    Wednesday, September 14, 2011 3:26 PM
  • None of you seem to be embracing change.  You're following the stereotypical tech oldy.  Stuck in your ways.   I prefer the tiles.  They present MUCH more active information than a static list of shortcuts.  You have to give them some credit for innovating.

    Sure, i'll be sure to pass that information along to my CFO.

    Wednesday, September 14, 2011 3:31 PM
  • My first response was this is cool but how do I get the regular start menu back for work.

     

    http://www.neowin.net/news/windows-8-how-to-re-enable-the-classic-start-menu

     

     

    The way propsed there kills the explorer ribbon. Just rename c:\windows\system32\shsxs.dll to something else, and you get rid of metro and retain the ribbon.


    Don't forget to open the task manager and End the startmenu (explorer instance). The tiled Start button will change into the Windows 7 one.

    Cheers

    Rem

    Wednesday, September 14, 2011 3:32 PM
  • Some of your complaints are confusing the new metro-style Start page with the Windows Desktop.  The Windows Desktop is still available, and works the same way as it always did.  You don't have to "lose what i'm doing in visual studio out of my sight just to open calculator".

    The "start menu paradigm" works because, well, everyone is used to it.  I'm sure the first Windows 95 users thought the Start Menu was very odd (coming from Program Manager in Win3.x).  Every new paradigm shift in UI design takes some time to get used to, but that alone isn't enough reason to not change, in my opinion.

    I don't consider this new interface to be a "usability problem".  Personally, I think that many people will find the new metro-style paradigm easier to use over time, because many people now have some kind of smartphone device that works in a similar manner -- and I think that is what Microsoft is going after: one consistent UI paradigm that works on ANY device.  I will bet that Apple is going in the same direction also.  Besides, admit it:  The standard Windows UI is waaaay too busy.

    And, having to train your users on something new isn't a bad thing.  Maybe users WANT to be trained.  Maybe they need to be kept up-to-date on new technology.

    Finally, I'm sure that MS will provide Group Policy templates to control everything about the new interface, including what apps show up by default, and whether or not users are allowed to change them.  I'm in IT, and I'm not worrying about it.

    Wednesday, September 14, 2011 3:44 PM
  • I would be interested to understand what you believe the old Start Menu has in terms of better functionality than the metro-style Start screen.  Other than, "I'm used to it", that kind of thing...

    Wednesday, September 14, 2011 3:47 PM
  • Don't get me wrong.  I like what I see with the new tile interface.  I also love the idea of being able to use a large touchscreen monitor with it.  I just wanted to make sure when I need to get into precision keyboard and mouse for some applications that I can stay in the "classic" desktop if I want to and not have to switch back and forth. 

    I do think that mostly I would be using Metro style apps and interfaces for my standard day to day usage.  I like this new and reimagined look.  I hope that Microsoft can do this right and get a good market share of next generation devices.

    Wednesday, September 14, 2011 3:49 PM
  • I would be interested to understand what you believe the old Start Menu has in terms of better functionality than the metro-style Start screen.  Other than, "I'm used to it", that kind of thing...


    I'm not exactly a newbee in the IT business, but have a hard time trying to find out why Metro is better.

    I can understand things like Linux on a computer and Linux on a phone (called Android). That said, you might have noticed that Ubuntu and my daughter's smartphone have visually spoken absolutely nothing in common.

    In an office, the metro interface is not improving productivity (don't forget there are people calling the hotline because the screen doesn't "work"; when you don't switch it on). You cannot ask companies to spend an enormous amount of money on training just for metr's sake. Nor can you ask them to invest massively in touch screens. I'd love to, but that won't be done.

    How to close a metro app, i.e. not just suspend them. How to navigate quickly between screens... Maybe great on a Pad, but on a standard Desktop...??? Not all computers come with loads of RAM.

    IMO in the RTM of Windows 8, there should be a setting to allow the enduser to decide what he wants to use.

    Anyway, it is not just a matter of habits. The fact that kids play on Xboxes using joysticks didn't make the carmanufacturers install joysticks instead of steering wheels.

    Not all progress is an improvement.

    btw My phone is an old Sony Ericson (hardly any WAP functions, and not smart at all, but it does what it was made for: calling people)

    Cheers

    Rem

     

    Wednesday, September 14, 2011 4:04 PM
  • We appreciate the feedback very much and are listening.  We do ask that instead of turning it off (note the method linked to here has untested side-effects), that you please try to live with the new way a while to see how it settles in with you.  If you are like me, you will find it grows on you.  I appreciate that if your initial impression is negative this might feel like "work" but your help and feedback is very much appreciated.

     

    Here are some things that might help:

    1. The Start Screen is highly customizable.  You can pin any application to the start screen and move it to the far left to ease access.  Think of this as a much larger, "Pin to Start menu" area.

    2. Search is always available.  Press the Windows key and just start typing.  If you are used to typing an app name and pressing enter in Windows 7, that still works with the exact same keystrokes.

    3. The thing that I find much better than the all programs view of the start menu is the Start Screen's all programs view.  To get this view with the Start Screen showing, choose the Search Charm or type any letter.  Then you have a full alphabetical list of installed programs which is much easier to use than Start->All Programs->sub-menu->etc...  Continue typing and the list narrows to find matches on each keystroke.

    4. As other folks have pointed out the accelerator keys all work as before.

    5. If you are in the habit of pinning your most used apps to the Task Bar, you rarely visit the Start Screen (or Start menu in Win7 for that matter).


    Update: I misspoke when I said *any* app could be pinned to the start screen.  The exe needs a shortcut in the programs folder.  Copy the shortcut to this path under your user folder: "AppData\Roaming\Microsoft\Windows\Start Menu\Programs"  Then you can pin and unpin the program.  This may change in later builds.
    Wednesday, September 14, 2011 4:13 PM
  • With mouse and keyboard the new startscreen is simply unusable. All task take more time to finish. With touch hardware is maybe really cool, but not with keyboard...

    Give us an option so that we can choose if we want to use it or not. If we can't test the difference how shoiuld we knwo that the new one is better or not? If you force the users you'll loose many customers and they will stay at Windows 7 for a long time.


    "A programmer is just a tool which converts caffeine into code"

    Wednesday, September 14, 2011 4:18 PM
  • Don't worry mate, I kept it switched on in order to fully try it out.

    It is going to be hell to implement customized versions in the office, but that's what we IT people are here for aren't we?

    By the way, the poor bugger with a 15 inch screen is going to be less enthousiastic. Too much scrolling.

    Cheers


    • Edited by Zeus76 Wednesday, September 14, 2011 4:19 PM
    Wednesday, September 14, 2011 4:18 PM
  • Some of your complaints are confusing the new metro-style Start page with the Windows Desktop.  The Windows Desktop is still available, and works the same way as it always did.  You don't have to "lose what i'm doing in visual studio out of my sight just to open calculator".

    The "start menu paradigm" works because, well, everyone is used to it.  I'm sure the first Windows 95 users thought the Start Menu was very odd (coming from Program Manager in Win3.x).  Every new paradigm shift in UI design takes some time to get used to, but that alone isn't enough reason to not change, in my opinion.

    I don't consider this new interface to be a "usability problem".  Personally, I think that many people will find the new metro-style paradigm easier to use over time, because many people now have some kind of smartphone device that works in a similar manner -- and I think that is what Microsoft is going after: one consistent UI paradigm that works on ANY device.  I will bet that Apple is going in the same direction also.  Besides, admit it:  The standard Windows UI is waaaay too busy.

    And, having to train your users on something new isn't a bad thing.  Maybe users WANT to be trained.  Maybe they need to be kept up-to-date on new technology.

    Finally, I'm sure that MS will provide Group Policy templates to control everything about the new interface, including what apps show up by default, and whether or not users are allowed to change them.  I'm in IT, and I'm not worrying about it.

    I really can't agree with this. If i have to visually forget everything that is on screen while i scan a (huge) list of items for the program i want to open next, its not an improvement over doing it with windows 7 start button. No matter what color its painted over.

    The fact that, by now, people are used to the start menu, and precisely because its been around for so long, is probably one of the biggest proponents of actually keeping it instead of redoing it. And you're forgetting 99.999% of the users are not tech savvy, and every minor change is more-or-less the end of the world. To the IT help desk, that is.

    And, quite frankly, if i wanted a phone to work on, i wouldnt be buying 27" dual and triple screen configurations for my programming crews. Having to either waste a screen on metro or hiding everything to open a new program is a usability problem.

    People wanting to be kept up-to-date on technology or not is not really the first concern of financial departments on corporate customers. Reducing costs is. Training is expensive on time, lost work hours and productive losses while the learning curve is climbed.

     

    Wednesday, September 14, 2011 4:20 PM
  • I would be interested to understand what you believe the old Start Menu has in terms of better functionality than the metro-style Start screen.  Other than, "I'm used to it", that kind of thing...


    Its small, compact, fast, doesn't get in the way, and doesnt flash strong colors in front of my eyes when im focused on some task.

    Also, it does what its supposed to do (give me a way to find and launch programs) in a fast and efficient way. By fast and efficient, i mean without requiring me to move across screens filled with of content, that also happens to be changing at the same time.

    Wednesday, September 14, 2011 4:22 PM
  • We appreciate the feedback very much and are listening.  We do ask that instead of turning it off (note the method linked to here has untested side-effects), that you please try to live with the new way a while to see how it settles in with you.  If you are like me, you will find it grows on you.  I appreciate that if your initial impression is negative this might feel like "work" but your help and feedback is very much appreciated.

     

    Here are some things that might help:

    1. The Start Screen is highly customizable.  You can pin any application to the start screen and move it to the far left to ease access.  Think of this as a much larger, "Pin to Start menu" area.

    2. Search is always available.  Press the Windows key and just start typing.  If you are used to typing an app name and pressing enter in Windows 7, that still works with the exact same keystrokes.

    3. The thing that I find much better than the all programs view of the start menu is the Start Screen's all programs view.  To get this view with the Start Screen showing, choose the Search Charm or type any letter.  Then you have a full alphabetical list of installed programs which is much easier to use than Start->All Programs->sub-menu->etc...  Continue typing and the list narrows to find matches on each keystroke.

    4. As other folks have pointed out the accelerator keys all work as before.

    5. If you are in the habit of pinning your most used apps to the Task Bar, you rarely visit the Start Screen (or Start menu in Win7 for that matter).


    Thanks for the quick response.  I think it would be wise for all of us to give the new things a try.  I am glad Microsoft is watching and listening.  PLEASE don't let Apple take the majority of the post-pc market share!
    Wednesday, September 14, 2011 4:24 PM
  • I would be interested to understand what you believe the old Start Menu has in terms of better functionality than the metro-style Start screen.  Other than, "I'm used to it", that kind of thing...


    Its small, compact, fast, doesn't get in the way, and doesnt flash strong colors in front of my eyes when im focused on some task.

    Also, it does what its supposed to do (give me a way to find and launch programs) in a fast and efficient way. By fast and efficient, i mean without requiring me to move across screens filled with of content, that also happens to be changing at the same time.


    Curious, do you use the search blank in the Win7 start menu to find/launch programs?  The same feature is in the new Win8 Start page (just start typing the name of a program).  So that functionality is still there, no paging required.

    And, for the record, it took me a while to switch to the "search" method of launching programs in Win7, but I have since found it a lot faster than navigating menus to find the program.

    Wednesday, September 14, 2011 4:26 PM
  • I can understand what he means, i often have something opened on the right part of the screen, let's say i want to open a command prompt. The way i usually did it since Vista was Windows key, cmd, enter, it takes less than a second and it doesn't disturb at all what i'm doing at the same time.

     

    Now, it can still work but it's Windows key >> short animation >> cmd >> enter >> short animation >> done. It just feels weird to have to exit the desktop, lose sight of your program and come back a few seconds later.

    If you are in the desktop and want to open something in the desktop, you should be able to do so without going back to metro.

     

    Wednesday, September 14, 2011 4:33 PM
  • Sorry folks but it's kind a funny to read all your posts. First of all W8 is Pre-Beta, which means it is NOT feature complete. Secondly it seems that you try to use a Touch Interface with the Keyboard and mouse. If that is the case, of course it wil be cumbersome over time... And lastly, Steven Sinofsky mentioned in the W8 Blog that in the final product, we will have the choice of loading metro or not at all.

    So stop screaming, enjoy the Bits and give them a chance to change something. It's overdue!

    Christian

    Wednesday, September 14, 2011 4:55 PM
  • Exactly.

    You loose focus on the thing you are working on, because of all the flashing, and it takes you a extra second or two to get back to what you where doing. It annoys you.

    I love the MetroUI. but I dont want to have to see it when Im only working with desktop apps. I dont need the full start menu from windows 7.. Just give us the search field.

    And dont know if it is possible to from metro using only the keyboard.. but say you want to  launch cmd.exe, but as admin. now you press Win, type cmd. press the context menu button on the keyboard and select run as administrator , and then enter.

     


    Wednesday, September 14, 2011 4:59 PM
  • I agree.  I think everyone should give it a try - that's the only way to really decide if you'll like it or not.  Remember the transition to Windows 95 when the Start button and menu were first introduced?  Lots of people didn't like it then either.  People just don't like change, even if it's for the best.  I'm excited about the new Start screen and looking forward to using it more. I love that I can just start typing a program or filename from the start screen.  I use the "Search programs and files" feature in Windows 7 all the time to launch the apps that I don't have resting on my task bar.  And, consider this almost every non-techy person I know that uses Windows creates (or has someone else create for them) shortcuts to their applications on the desktop.  They don't want to go searching a big list with folders, etc.  They just want to be able to quickly find the programs they are looking for.
    • Proposed as answer by jahXP Wednesday, September 14, 2011 9:50 PM
    Wednesday, September 14, 2011 5:02 PM
  • dont know if it is possible to from metro using only the keyboard.. but say you want to  launch cmd.exe, but as admin. now you press Win, type cmd. press the context menu button on the keyboard and select run as administrator , and then enter.


    It is possible to run the command prompt elevated using the keyboard with the metro UI.

    1. Start
    2. Type "cmd" (or "command")
    3. Tab twice to give focus to the app
    4. Use the arrow keys as necessary if more than one app matched the search
    5. Context menu key on the keyboard
    6. Space to activate the "..." menu
    7. Up arrow to choose the "Run as administrator" option
    8. Enter

    It is also possible to pin the "Command Prompt" app (but not cmd.exe) which allows you to skip steps 2 and 3.


    Matthew van Eerde
    Wednesday, September 14, 2011 5:05 PM
  • Sorry folks but it's kind a funny to read all your posts. First of all W8 is Pre-Beta, which means it is NOT feature complete. Secondly it seems that you try to use a Touch Interface with the Keyboard and mouse. If that is the case, of course it wil be cumbersome over time... And lastly, Steven Sinofsky mentioned in the W8 Blog that in the final product, we will have the choice of loading metro or not at all.

    So stop screaming, enjoy the Bits and give them a chance to change something. It's overdue!

    Christian


    We all know that mate. That said, in case you don't know, quite some user actually only have mouse and keyboard as user input. We are not all geeks (though it is my job to be one).

    Cheers

    Rem

    Wednesday, September 14, 2011 5:07 PM
  • My problem with it is not that I hate the UI cause of the change. But because of the unnecessary transition effects and screen switching. 

    I love the windows 7 start menu search and all my apps depend on it to launch. But windows 8 causes my entire screen to transition just for a search. I find it really unnecessary. A suggestion is, to great the so called "charm" that will pop up by the right side (like the settings charm), and allow you to do searches there. Overall it's really fast and fluid, unexpected from an Alpha build, though it's a huge improvement over windows 7, the Metro concept just, doesn't seem to fit in well.

    Wednesday, September 14, 2011 5:15 PM
  • If my 65+ year old mom, aunts, uncles, etc... can figure out how to use Facebook, smart phones, goofy apps for scrapbooking, crafts and hobbies, plus the host of other social media and online tools available today then the corporate and other users should be able to pick up Win8 without any problem.  ACTUALLY, with the aging population, it may be even easier with the large tiles!! :-)

    As far as using the Start menu... how many people actually navigate to Program Files to find apps to run... just press Win key, type, press Enter.

    Wednesday, September 14, 2011 5:15 PM
  • "And, having to train your users on something new isn't a bad thing.  Maybe users WANT to be trained.  Maybe they need to be kept up-to-date on new technology.

    Finally, I'm sure that MS will provide Group Policy templates to control everything about the new interface, including what apps show up by default, and whether or not users are allowed to change them.  I'm in IT, and I'm not worrying about it."

     

     

    Really? You work in IT and make that statement?  I would bet the majority of those (at least where I work) that want to learn something new, as opposed to getting the job done is about 1%.  One of the worst things for IT is having to retrain people on something new. Users tend not to have the time nor the patience for it, they just want to get their current task completed.

     

     I for one am hoping the metro thing will be an option we can turn off.  

    Wednesday, September 14, 2011 5:17 PM
  • Here are some things that might help:

    1. The Start Screen is highly customizable.  You can pin any application to the start screen and move it to the far left to ease access.  Think of this as a much larger, "Pin to Start menu" area.

    Okay, maybe I'm not seeing it, but how exactly can I pin any application to the start screen - using a keyboard and mouse?  Is this limited to only metro-style apps?  I have not yet been able to figure out how to get a "legacy" windows application added to the new start screen.

     

    2. Search is always available.  Press the Windows key and just start typing.  If you are used to typing an app name and pressing enter in Windows 7, that still works with the exact same keystrokes.

    3. The thing that I find much better than the all programs view of the start menu is the Start Screen's all programs view.  To get this view with the Start Screen showing, choose the Search Charm or type any letter.  Then you have a full alphabetical list of installed programs which is much easier to use than Start->All Programs->sub-menu->etc...  Continue typing and the list narrows to find matches on each keystroke.

    Here's my beef with this new approach to finding/launching other programs - it requires you to already know what the app is named, and it completely removes any semblance of "grouping" multiple programs/launch points of a single product, as well as multiple products from the same vendor. 

    What if I've got multiple applications installed, and each have their own separate "Configuration.exe" tool - previously with the old Start menu program groups, they would be grouped into their own group by the Vendor/product.  But now, if I go into the full alphabetical list of installed programs in Windows 8, I'll just see multiple "Configuration.exe" programs lumped together.

    Wednesday, September 14, 2011 5:19 PM
  • None of you seem to be embracing change.  You're following the stereotypical tech oldy.  Stuck in your ways.   I prefer the tiles.  They present MUCH more active information than a static list of shortcuts.  You have to give them some credit for innovating.

    Change for the sake of change is not necessarily justified or good. Metro is good for tablets where there is less precision of control (fingers are thick and not nearly as precise as a mouse or perhaps stylus). The start menu is better for mouse-based users. Far greater density of information, easier navigation (don't have to move a great distance to get somewhere), not blocking out what you're doing just to start an app, etc.  Oh, and hierarchical organization in the form of a folder tree.  Not something that would matter for simple applets (bah, "fun", humbug!), but for something like Visual Studio with all of the different components and programs that come with it, that sort of tree structure is vital.

    The biggest thing that people are missing about Metro is how it basically kills the whole notion of multitasking. Not just having one program running and others in the background. But several programs in the foreground at the same time. And a start menu that doesn't take up much screen real estate is a central part of that. Metro may be good for people looking for fun, but for serious use--e.g., I am a developer--it is totally unacceptable.

    • Edited by code65536 Wednesday, September 14, 2011 5:26 PM
    Wednesday, September 14, 2011 5:21 PM
  • I know that quite some users only have mouse and keyboard - including myself. But I don't expect a pre-beta to be perfect. And I read the posts on the W8 blog carefully enough to know that this is NOT what we get in the final product.

    frankly speaking, does anybody here think that MS doesn't know that there are thousands of corporate PCs that will not use Metro?

    Christian

    Wednesday, September 14, 2011 5:22 PM
  • That's true, i already have two "uninstall.exe", and no way to know what program they refer to. But i think that'll probably be fixed in future build.
    Wednesday, September 14, 2011 5:31 PM
  • The animations are so short that they don't really interfere.  Try it for yourself and see how quickly you can do it.  You don't have to wait for the animations, just hit Windows Key, type CMD, press Enter.  Do it as quickly as you can and I think you'll see it's not a problem.

    Wednesday, September 14, 2011 5:47 PM
  • You guys are all forgetting something... enterprises don't usually move to new OS's until at LEAST SP1.  By then, most users would already have Windows 8 at home - either on new computers, or by upgrading their current OS. These users will already be familiar with it by the time the IT folks decide to push it to everyone.
    Wednesday, September 14, 2011 5:52 PM
  • Why have you completely replaced the Windows 8 start button with the metro style start screen?  I am an IT employee and very much enjoy quick access to various programs and the command prompt via commands and program names typed in the windows 7 search box and I really like this feature.  Will there be a run box at least?


    I may have been too hasty to assume that they did not allow it.  I am pleased to know that programs are still quickly accessible via search and if necessary the start menu can be used.  I am a fan of the Metro tiles :)

    Wednesday, September 14, 2011 5:56 PM
  • I really like the new Startpage. Its nice und very easy to use. For the new apps and especially tablet pcs it's really great.

     

    But when im in the 'desktop mode' i really dont like to have to see the startpage all the time. Tasks i did in seconds in Windows Vista / 7 are much more complicated now. To get to the system information page, took me a really long time for example. First i had to open the new Control Panel, then open the old control panel, after that i had to search for the system 'app' and than i was there. This is just an example, but its with a lot of things.

    Wednesday, September 14, 2011 5:56 PM
  • When I installed a couple "legacy" apps, they automatically got start screen tiles.  Scroll all the way to the right and they will likely show up.  If they don't, there's an easy way to get to an alphabetical list of your apps.  Here are two ways to do it:

     

    1. Press the Windows Key+C to bring up the charms, then select Search. Click Apps, and then an alphabetical list of all your apps is displayed.  Right click on the app and choose Pin.  If the app is already pinned, then you can unpin it in the same way.
    2. Press the Windows Key, and press any letter.  The search is displayed.  Click backspace to remove the letter.  Click Apps, and then an alphabetical list of all your apps is displayed. Right click on the app and choose Pin. If the app is already pinned, then you can unpin it in the same way.
    Wednesday, September 14, 2011 6:00 PM
  • I agree that there needs to be a change with the start menu. A suggestion for Microsoft:

    When I am in Metro: tapping the start button on the keyboard should take me to the metro start page, as it does now.

    When I am in desktop view: tapping the start button on the keyboard or with my mouse should display a "docked" version of the metro start page listing all of my applications, have search and links to computer, control panel and network. It should appear similar to other "docked" metro" apps.

    When I double tap/click the start button: I should be switched between desktop view and metro view.

    This way, it resembles the features of the classic start menu but uses the new interface without completely blocking my view of running desktop applications.

    Wednesday, September 14, 2011 6:07 PM
  • dont know if it is possible to from metro using only the keyboard.. but say you want to  launch cmd.exe, but as admin. now you press Win, type cmd. press the context menu button on the keyboard and select run as administrator , and then enter.


    It is possible to run the command prompt elevated using the keyboard with the metro UI.

    1. Start
    2. Type "cmd" (or "command")
    3. Tab twice to give focus to the app
    4. Use the arrow keys as necessary if more than one app matched the search
    5. Context menu key on the keyboard
    6. Space to activate the "..." menu
    7. Up arrow to choose the "Run as administrator" option
    8. Enter

    It is also possible to pin the "Command Prompt" app (but not cmd.exe) which allows you to skip steps 2 and 3.


    Matthew van Eerde
    1. start
    2. cmd
    3. ctrl+shift+enter

    But I wasn't able to bring up the option "run as different user", let's hope we will get a solution soon

    LH

    Wednesday, September 14, 2011 6:16 PM
  •  

    Shortcut	Windows Desktop					Metro
    WIN+Q 	Open Metro Search Build			Open Metro Search Apps
    WIN+W 	Open Metro Search Settings			ditto
    WIN+E 	Open Explorer						ditto (in Metro causes switching to Desktop)
    WIN+R 	Open Run						ditto (in Metro causes switching to Desktop)
    WIN+T 	Hover through the taskbar icons		ditto (in Metro causes switching to Desktop)
    WIN+Y 	Hover the show desktop buton		ditto
    WIN+U 	Open Easy of Access				ditto (in Metro causes switching to Desktop)
    WIN+I 	Open a Metro Notification Area		ditto
    WIN+P 	Open Metro Projector Settings		ditto
    WIN+D	Switch to Desktop					ditto
    WIN+F 	Open Metro Search Files				ditto
    WIN+H	N/A								Open Metro Search Apps
    WIN+L	Lock the screen					ditto
    WIN+X	Open Windows Mobility Center		ditto
    WIN+C	Hover Start Button					ditto
    WIN+B	N/A								Switch to Desktop
    WIN+M	Minimize Windows					ditto (in Metro causes switching to Desktop)
    WIN+TAB	Switch through Fullscreen Apps	(Desktop is one App)
    ALT+TAB	Switch through all Apps

     



    Wednesday, September 14, 2011 8:41 PM
  • I think this is not true. With the mouse it is very usable with the wheel instead of using the scroll bar. And many of you are forgetting that daily we use the same applications (not more than 10-15) and this apps fit perfectly in the first group of the new start screen, so theres no problem.

    Many of us in Windows 7 have the most used applications pinned in the taskbar or start menu and in the desktop, and in Windows 8 we still can pin the apps in the taskbar and of course pin them in the start screen.

    I dont see big problems with the keyboard and mouse. I think many people are talking too soon, and IMO a few days of trying is needed to make a final conclussion.

    Wednesday, September 14, 2011 9:46 PM
  • But you have to think that when Windows 8 will be released, most apps you use daily should use the Metro UI. So the time you will stay in the Desktop will be very very short.
    Wednesday, September 14, 2011 9:57 PM
  • Yes double-click or click+hold.  That would be nice.
    Wednesday, September 14, 2011 9:59 PM
  • If this is the future of Windows, where is my alternative? That's the question all desktop users are probably going to ask.

    Microsoft would not trash a huge amount of market share by using an awesome tablet interface that is horrible on desktops and laptops.

     


    Ev Jan
    Wednesday, September 14, 2011 10:34 PM
  • Metro UI is very touch-friendly, but I don't think completely replacing start menu by it is a good idea for mouse-based computers.

    Tablet and conventional PC are quite different, though I appreciate MS's idea to bring us a unified OS for both. What I personally expect is an OS provides two different UX optimized for both tablet and conventional PC, while under the hood the settings and data (such as personal files) can shared in the same machine, instead of having multiple devices using completely different OS in the first place and relying on cripple "sync" among them. As I tried the DP version of Windows 8, I'm really confident this is exactly what a tablet feasible for serious works (such as Asus's Transformer or any tablet with keyboard dock) needs.

    However, it isn't the case for conventional computers without touch screen. Mouses may be very old fashioned, they provides much higher pointing accuracy than fingertips do. This fact also means the apps can put more and denser buttons on the screen to improve productivity on conventional computers. On the other hand, the counterpart on touch-based computing devices can only provide simplified instruments and reduced productivity. The difference is just like that you can play filght simulation games with an XBox controller, but you need far more buttons and switches to fly a real airplane.

    Now MS has made a terrific flight simulation game, even better than Apple's. However, they also build an avionic system for Boeing 747s out of the same technology and every pilot has to fly with an XBox controller in the future.

    Thursday, September 15, 2011 2:59 AM
  • Just remember, RPEnable removes many of the additional features, not just the metroUI. You won't be able to run Metro apps for a start - which is the whole reason behind using this Dev Preview.
    Thursday, September 15, 2011 3:17 AM
  • Start menu definitely should be presented in Windows 8. And start button style should be changed to match Aero theme, now that black square looks ugly on transparent taskbar.
    • Edited by nick_12345 Thursday, September 15, 2011 8:55 AM
    Thursday, September 15, 2011 3:41 AM
  • I actually liked it a lot. Seems a nice replacement to the start menu... It does take a while to get used to it, but once you get it feels much and even faster...
    Thursday, September 15, 2011 4:32 AM
  • Well, as for me, I don't really mind the Start Screen that much. It's very different, but I'm the kind of person who adapts to the environment.

     

    However, I would suggest a few improvements:

    1. For those who don't want to lose sight of their running desktop program(s), perhaps the Start Screen could be made partially transparent so that any activity in the desktop will still be visible.

    2. An All Programs tile on the Start Screen that will list all the installed applications like what search does now except in a more general form. This will ease the transition from Start Menu to Start Screen.

    3. Allow for a "Log in to Desktop" option for those who don't want to see the Start Screen on each log-in. We don't log in to Windows 7 with the menu open do we? This again is to ease the transition.

    4. The traditional User, Documents, Music, Pictures, etc. Explorer links on the Start Screen. These can be removed by the user but help orient new users to the system as they have an anchor point and help them understand how the Screen is replacing the Menu.

    5. This is an even more traditionally-thinking suggestion, but perhaps the Charm menu should also have a Programs button that opens the previously suggested "All Programs" tile.

     

    These suggestions are all meant as options for those who may have difficulty adjusting to the new interface. These also apply only to laptops and desktops; tablet PCs with Windows 8 are free to eliminate these vestigial components.

    Thursday, September 15, 2011 5:04 AM
  • I think the problem, is that the Start screen is missing some controls, which makes it unintuitive on some areas, and not user friendly on other areas.

    What I mean is:

     - The Start screen menu is horizontally layed out. Why I can't use my touch pad or mouse horizontal scrolling to navigate? I have to scroll up/down to move left and right. This feels strange. I want to flick my finger on my touch pad or mouse horizontal scroll, and get where I want.

    - If the cursor is positions above the tiles, scrolling does not work anymore.

    - You can't close Metro programs... what if I have 1GB of RAM, and I run all Metro apps as I never restarted my computer... am I out stuck out of memory? What if I ran a Metro program by mistake... why I can't close it. What's the problem adding an "X" somewhere or on the Application bar?

    - I can't zoom in/out and put titles on groups on a laptop without touch screen, as demoed on the keynote

    - Win+W, Win+Q, Win+F, and type in Start screen... to many keyboard shortcuts for search... what's the problem in using Win7 system, where it searches everywhere at once, with the same order/priority when result shows. And ad a filter item called "All" to the list. So you can search All, Programs, Files, Settings. "All" filter is set as default.

    - REALLY hard to turn off the system. I spent 10min trying to figure out how to shut down Windows 8. I must roll-over the start button, go under 'Settings" (even though it's not a setting), click on the "power" icon, THEN I can select Turn off. Why not add a Power button on the start screen like on the log-in screen, and one button on the start menu that appears when you roll-Over.

     

    I think if the above issues are looked into and solved, the Start Screen would be a million times better, more user friendly, and more intuitive.

    • Proposed as answer by lostmsu Thursday, September 15, 2011 8:51 AM
    Thursday, September 15, 2011 5:13 AM
  • The on-screen keyboard doesn't even have a Windows key so those of us on tablets (with no physical keyboard) can't easily use a Windows+ key combination.

     

    Personally, in the final product, i would like to see the classic Start button behavior when i'm in desktop mode. When in Metro i don't need a Windows key sincemi have the charm...


    string fakeEmail="jim.duncan@sharesquared.spam.com"; string realEmail=fakeEmail.Replace(".spam","")
    Thursday, September 15, 2011 5:28 AM
  • My first response was this is cool but how do I get the regular start menu back for work.

     

    http://www.neowin.net/news/windows-8-how-to-re-enable-the-classic-start-menu

     

     

    Brilliant, thanks for the info.

    It was starting to really annoy me. The metro thing is nice for those with touch screens, but for non touch screen users I can see this as a huge disappointment.

    I do hope by Beta/RC stages Microsoft listen to the feedback of all it Devs/Techs/Beta testers - and at least provide a quick, easy way for non technical pc users to choose which style they like - and also change to the other should they not like the one they select.

    Not having a fully functional start menu is like having a car without the keys to take it anywhere! :)


    Windows 7 *64 Office 2010 *64
    Thursday, September 15, 2011 6:13 AM
  • But you have to think that when Windows 8 will be released, most apps you use daily should use the Metro UI. So the time you will stay in the Desktop will be very very short.


    Don't know what world you are living on, but in mine there are tons of software like project management stuff, accountancy softs, ERP, etc... I really could gon on some time like that. Those softwares are not going to migrate into a MetroUI thinghy.

    For the homeuser you are probably right, but in real life...

    I've got some doubts.

    Cheers

    Rem

    Thursday, September 15, 2011 6:30 AM
  • Mind though, this is a Dev Build. It's intention is to make us work with the MetroUI. I'm not a fan (for now at least), but I'll play the game, trying it out. If I find sufficient evidence of its shortcomings, I'll kill it. If not, I'll be happy with a simple switch allowing me to turn it on or off.

    Cheers

    Rem

    Thursday, September 15, 2011 6:35 AM
  • okay, I love the new UI, but before I can consider switching from my Windows 7 Ultimate to Windows 8,there are things to do:
    1. In the metro UI you can't close programs. Why dont you add "X" charm to the top of side bar, which would close the app.
    2. The desktop should also be added to the charm bar, its weird to see it in the app list. two interfaces must be equally treated.
    3. In the desktop mode, add the classic win7 start menu back!! In that menu you can add the shiny button for the Metro start screen. But I totally don't want to have windows without the win7 start menu or anything else mising from windows 7.
    Other than these, I really love the new Windows.
    Thursday, September 15, 2011 7:00 AM
  • Though it is a Dev. Build, I think it's already too late for the dev. team to scrap the intention of unifying tablet and PC UX or the Metro UI start screen.

    However, implement some options to make the Metro UI subsystem more mouse-friendly and desktop-oriented is still pratical at this point.

    In my opinion, the dev. team may ask too many "Does this change make tablet UX better?", but too few "Does this change make conventional PC UX worse on the other hand?". So far, the chance of Windows 8 losing desktop market is still greater than of beating iPad in tablet market.

    Thursday, September 15, 2011 7:01 AM
  • okay, I love the new UI, but before I can consider switching from my Windows 7 Ultimate to Windows 8,there are things to do:
    1. In the metro UI you can't close programs. Why dont you add "X" charm to the top of side bar, which would close the app.
    2. The desktop should also be added to the charm bar, its weird to see it in the app list. two interfaces must be equally treated.
    3. In the desktop mode, add the classic win7 start menu back!! In that menu you can add the shiny button for the Metro start screen. But I totally don't want to have windows without the win7 start menu or anything else mising from windows 7.
    Other than these, I really love the new Windows.
    Thursday, September 15, 2011 7:02 AM
  • I just don't understand why the Windows team hates the start menu so much?

    First they removed the "classic" start menu from Windows 7 (despite many people still love it). Now they're pulling off the newer 2-column start menu as well.


    • Edited by AsumaHung Thursday, September 15, 2011 7:18 AM
    Thursday, September 15, 2011 7:15 AM
  • I can kind of understand where MS is coming from - the new start page DOES work, and you can search and do everything you're used to. However, I just think the effect is too jarring - when I'm on the desktop, press the windows key, search and press enter and go back to desktop. Completely changing the screen by sliding it in, then sliding it out again - it's just too brutal.

    I'd like more customisation of the start page too. I just don't think it works with keyboard and mouse in the present form - need the ability to make icons WAY smaller. And perhaps borders around the "sections"?

    Thursday, September 15, 2011 8:41 AM
  • You guys are all forgetting something... enterprises don't usually move to new OS's until at LEAST SP1.  By then, most users would already have Windows 8 at home - either on new computers, or by upgrading their current OS. These users will already be familiar with it by the time the IT folks decide to push it to everyone.

    Apparently its not known how companies manage an OS upgrade. Let me try to get some light over this.

    First, the IT crew has to be convinced that its an upgrade, and its in fact making IT's life easier, not harder.

    Then, we need to get the ball running. Need to start talking to the upper levels, get a couple of test boxes with the new stuff in some key people's desks, and be right there behind their chairs pointing out the stuff that's actually going to make things easier and faster, rather than slower and cumbersome.

    Then, when we know those people will back the idea, we move with a full proposal to the financial dept.

    This whole process is VERY lenghty. With Win7, we (at the place i work in, at least) got the ball running before the public beta, as soon as we realized it was -way- faster, more stable, more reliable and just -felt- better than vista (not hard). We got our work made easier because no one liked vista. It was heavy, cumbersome, slow (at launch, at least) and we just skipped it as a full blown deployment. I can not approach anyone with any proposal to even start thinking about 8 if we can't get the average joe (not the average IT guy, this is VERY different) to at least find his/her way around the OS. And if we delay this by, say, half a year, 9 months or so, it will be WELL into 8 life cycle that we actually get approval to go forward with the deployment, if at all.

    The start menu, as it is, with all the constantly changing tiles, the bright colors, the transitions from desktop (looks like you reached a completely different program), is not easy to navigate. Its also very distracting. Each time you're focused on a task, even writing something in word, and need to open a different program, your eyes will go over lots of new information, tile changes, you need to focus to find the program, and at the same time you're reading new information. When you eventually go back to word, you have lost whatever it was you were typing about.

    For tougher tasks like coding, well, ever heard of the "zone"? It's the place you left when you entered the start menu.

    Compared to win7 pdc or first leaked versions? This looks like much MUCH farther from RTM.

    And before the bashing, let me just say i'm the in-house evangelist for microsoft products, and i'm disappointed. For touch devices, sure, its better. For the rest, give me the opt-out.

     

    Thursday, September 15, 2011 8:48 AM


  • But you have to think that when Windows 8 will be released, most apps you use daily should use the Metro UI. So the time you will stay in the Desktop will be very very short.


    Don't know what world you are living on, but in mine there are tons of software like project management stuff, accountancy softs, ERP, etc... I really could gon on some time like that. Those softwares are not going to migrate into a MetroUI thinghy.

    For the homeuser you are probably right, but in real life...

    I've got some doubts.

    Cheers

    Rem

    This is so true.

    I don't see any of the regular line-of-business apps we use getting turned into Metro apps any time soon, or ever, for that matter. They are way too detailed and filled with controls (and thats not a bad thing either, we've lived like that perfectly fine for decades). Also, on a desktop pc, thats perfectly fine, too.

    When you spend the amount of money you spend on powerful desktop pcs, why in the world would you want to dumb them down with phone apps? They even said so in the demos - " the apps will have smaller scopes". No they won't. Visual Studio (i hope) won't be "smaller scope". Its not possible, or desirable. Photoshop won't be smaller scope. Heavy accounting apps wont be smaller scope. The amount of information just doesnt allow for it. And its ok. We have large screens that can show all the information without (excessive) cluttering.

    Thursday, September 15, 2011 8:56 AM
  • I agree totally with Joao here, except for one thing. I'm not disappointed. This is not an Alpha or Beta, it's a Developper Preview. Emphasis on the developper part. Like I stated in an earlier post, I'll play the game and try it thoroughly. The thing "as is", is cumbersome when used in office mode. That said, most homeusers don't really use multitasking, don't do any maintenance, but know very well how to complain.

    Therefore, I do understand the road Microsoft is taking, and am fairly confident that the final product can be customised to personal needs.

    Cheers

    Rem

    Thursday, September 15, 2011 8:59 AM
  • I'm writing to support GoodBytes's post. Bring total search back. I don't want to click on Settings to open Windows Update, I don't won to click on "Files" (which, by the way, does not work for some reason on my installation).

    Also, I can't figure out how to manually add an app to Start Search Apps. I've created a shortcut "restart" to my executable in C:\ProgramData\Microsoft\Windows\Start Menu\Programs, but it still can't be found by typing "restart" in Start screen.

    It would be nice to have an ability to switch between view methods in Start's search, e.g. Details, Small Icons, etc.

    Also, I have two displays, and don't need secondary taskbar on my 2nd monitor. Also, I'd like taskbar and Metro can be placed on different monitors!

    Also, I miss Network and Sharing Center in Networks Metro
    • Edited by lostmsu Thursday, September 15, 2011 9:03 AM
    Thursday, September 15, 2011 9:01 AM
  • I don't see why people still want to use the W2000 start menu. I personally think it is way less useful than the XP one and even more that the W7 one. Last used, document, computer all under the first thing you see. Plus if I don't see it I just type it in, I don't go wandering through menu's.

    What bothers most people about the Metro menu is the huge colorful mass that is coming at you. It is nice when you are working with it, but when coming from a sleek and clean desktop/application it is overwhelming, and it looks a rather unprofessional.

    I think if you would do a test with how fast a program is found and opened the difference between Metro and W7 style would be small.

    Thursday, September 15, 2011 9:32 AM
  • I would also add to this 'WIN+Q' that I have found particularly useful to bring up 'Application Search'



    And here are a few more tips from Long Zheng's post (and other tips)
    http://www.istartedsomething.com/20110914/windows-8-101-tips-tricks-for-new-start-experience/ 

     

    • New shell keyboard shortcuts:
      • WIN+Q for application search
      • WIN+W for settings search
      • WIN+F for files search
      • WIN+I for “settings” charm
      • WIN+O for rotation lock
      • WIN+C to bring up simple “Start menu” and time/date

     


    Cheers, Stephen Edgar
    Thursday, September 15, 2011 11:58 AM
  • Thank God for that!
    Thursday, September 15, 2011 12:05 PM
  • Change is one thing, usability issues is another.

    Yes, MS have employed some very cool new technologies here, but that alone does not equal an efficient work space and fluid user experience.

    If all you do with your PC is tweet and share media with your friends, then Metro is brilliant. For everything else, it just gets in the way.


    • Edited by Dubya75 Thursday, September 15, 2011 12:09 PM
    Thursday, September 15, 2011 12:08 PM
  • OK, twenty years in the industry and I can't find the bloody off switch. So where's that been hidden?
    Thursday, September 15, 2011 1:21 PM
  • I had been reading the Building 8 blog prior to trying the Developer Preview, and even then then I was bemused by the new interface. I couldn't find any way to start programs that weren't already on the Start screen, other than through Explorer. From reading this forum, I now know that I could have started typing on the Start screen to initiate a search, and maybe I could then pin new things to it, but that wasn't obvious to me: I didn't think to do it despite searching the Start menu in Vista and Windows 7 (where there's a visual cue to suggest that you can search). I suppose I could also have used the Search charm, but I didn't know about that either. I did discover a way to turn off the computer, but only because I blundered around and tried clicking my user tile, then logging off. I appreciate that the functionality is there, but basic tasks aren't anywhere near "discoverable" enough (especially on a desktop, when the interface cries out to be swiped around). If someone who's been using Windows since 3.1 can't figure out how to open Notepad, I'm pretty sure that others are going to have trouble too. Metro UI looks great for tablets, and I've always liked the visual style and content-focused approach as seen before in Windows Phone. But right now it doesn't integrate well with traditional applications, and it's bringing in confusing new paradigms for desktop users who find it unfamiliar and opaque rather than refreshing and tactile.
    Thursday, September 15, 2011 2:49 PM
  • :-). With keyboard and mouse.

    Push windows button (to go to the metro view)

    Hold mouse in left bottom corner.

    Wait until menu shows

    Choose Settings

    Now you can click on power in the right bottom corner

    Thursday, September 15, 2011 2:57 PM
  • As JurgenC7 Said, OR! CTRL+ALT+DEL and use the power icon bottom right of the screen
    Thursday, September 15, 2011 4:25 PM
  • Well that doesnt seem easy at all. :)

    Wouldnt it be easier to add restart and shutdown right where lock and logoff is? On my user picture?


    Mirronelli
    Thursday, September 15, 2011 4:57 PM
  • The Windows 7 start menu is clearly missing on the desktop. I love Metro on my phone and it will be probably great on a tablet. But I do not want it on my desktop. When being in Desktop mode, I don't want to launch this heavy Metro desktop (yes, I call it a desktop and not a start menu). I want to stay in classic mode.

    Example: I'm on the desktop and want to get to the full control panel. I have to press start, launch the metro control panel, scroll all the way down, click on "show all options" or how it is called and being pushed back to the desktop. That is a usability super gau!.

    Add the toggle switch to switch between Metro desktop and classic desktop somewhere to the system tray (e.g. beside the "Show Desktop" button). Add it to the same position on the metro desktop - that way I can quickly switch between the 2 desktops. But keep the classic start menu, it's the most important UI element on Windows!

    You should treat the new metro desktop and the classic desktop equally. Do not mix them and keep them separated, but both can access the same data and applications. But no metro overlay in classic desktop, please! And please allow booting directly into the classic desktop, without the need to disable the Metro stuff completely. I want the choice which desktop I want to see first, but I want to switch between both at any time, without loosing the Windows 7 start menu!

    Thursday, September 15, 2011 5:30 PM
  • I would be interested to understand what you believe the old Start Menu has in terms of better functionality than the metro-style Start screen.  Other than, "I'm used to it", that kind of thing...

    I'm all for new things, but not everyone is going to get touch screens right away.  I have a modern desktop workstation with mouse and keyboard, which doesn't need upgrading any time soon, and it would be nice to have the ability to configure Windows 8 to do what's already possible without having to throw half a lifetime of habits out the window...  Then I could switch over to using the metro interface as time goes on and I do things like upgrade monitors...

     

    Please tell me how to use the mouse minimally (without the keyboard) with the Metro interface to do the same as things like these, done in Windows 7:

     

    1.  Click Start, right-click Computer, choose Manage.

     

    2.  Click Start, All Programs, then an application I have installed but don't use often enough to clutter up a desktop with a tile.

     

    3.  Have things on the desktop for visual reference when pressing Start and typing things into the search box (or doing anything else in the Start menu).  Not everyone wants their entire desktop to go away while they get something else running.

     

    The more appropriate approach, whether Microsoft wants to feel bold or not, is to provide a clear path for people to migrate from the way they do things to the new way.

     

    -Noel


    • Edited by Noel Carboni Thursday, September 15, 2011 5:47 PM
    Thursday, September 15, 2011 5:43 PM
  • I think it's funny that Microsoft chooses some pretty tiny fonts here, yet feels we need GIANT colored boxes to be able to start our programs.

     

    By the way, I've been doing software engineering for 35 years and I STILL like little small fonts and to keep lots of stuff on the screen at the same time (actually 2 screens, I have a pair of 1600 x 1200 monitors).

     

    Jumping to the Metro interface to start apps that I keep in an organized hierarchy in my Windows 7 Start Menu is like reading nicely along in the forum then...

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

    BAM!

     

     

     

     

     

     

    Now what was I thinking about? 

     

    Not really a "to work" type of thing, now is it?  More like a "to play" system.  Maybe a lot of people are going to play with it, but what about people who still need a real computer with a "to work" operating system?

     

    Thanks for the opportunity to try it out and for listening to feedback.

     

    -Noel


    • Edited by Noel Carboni Thursday, September 15, 2011 6:08 PM
    Thursday, September 15, 2011 6:05 PM
  • We appreciate the feedback very much and are listening.  We do ask that instead of turning it off (note the method linked to here has untested side-effects), that you please try to live with the new way a while to see how it settles in with you.  If you are like me, you will find it grows on you.  I appreciate that if your initial impression is negative this might feel like "work" but your help and feedback is very much appreciated.

     

    Here are some things that might help:

    1. The Start Screen is highly customizable.  You can pin any application to the start screen and move it to the far left to ease access.  Think of this as a much larger, "Pin to Start menu" area.

    2. Search is always available.  Press the Windows key and just start typing.  If you are used to typing an app name and pressing enter in Windows 7, that still works with the exact same keystrokes.

    3. The thing that I find much better than the all programs view of the start menu is the Start Screen's all programs view.  To get this view with the Start Screen showing, choose the Search Charm or type any letter.  Then you have a full alphabetical list of installed programs which is much easier to use than Start->All Programs->sub-menu->etc...  Continue typing and the list narrows to find matches on each keystroke.

    4. As other folks have pointed out the accelerator keys all work as before.

    5. If you are in the habit of pinning your most used apps to the Task Bar, you rarely visit the Start Screen (or Start menu in Win7 for that matter).


    Update: I misspoke when I said *any* app could be pinned to the start screen.  The exe needs a shortcut in the programs folder.  Copy the shortcut to this path under your user folder: "AppData\Roaming\Microsoft\Windows\Start Menu\Programs"  Then you can pin and unpin the program.  This may change in later builds.

    I will say that this is exactly what I did. I forced myself to use it, and as I've played with it, it has grown on me. My only gripe is that I can't close the apps. Regardless of how good Windows is at doing this, I should still have the option. I've found that quickly tapping the Windows key is easy and just as fast, if not faster than the Start Menu to get me where I need to go.

    One thing, Is there a way to make it so that links in emails and such open in the normal IE10 instead of the Metro IE10? That thing is useless without plugin support.

    Thursday, September 15, 2011 6:20 PM
  • I think there is, go into Metro IE, mouse over start menu area, settings, and there is a setting that seem to do what you want on the right.
    Thursday, September 15, 2011 6:37 PM
  • Metro in Metro is great.  Metro with fingers is great.   Giant HUGE start screen is visually incongruous and distracting. 

    It's also a LOT MORE mouse travel.  

    I hit start, I travel up 400 pixels I choose my app.

    Metro: I hit start.  I travel 1920 pixels to the top right to choose "Settings" and then travel another 800 pixels to choose the app.   Also on my laptop there is a slight pause.  All in all it's jarring and distracting when working with desktop apps. 
    Thursday, September 15, 2011 7:08 PM
  • I've been using it on tablets/desktops for the last two days, my feelings are thus

     

    Tablet when using fingers, then metro is brilliant.

    Desktop when using a mouse and keyboard then the start menu is needed.

     

    Altering that registry key does something rather interesting before you restart explorer, it gives you the start menu, but you still have the ability to switch into metro using the charms on the right, that is actually the perfect solution. Then you restart and lose that ability.

    Thursday, September 15, 2011 7:09 PM
  • There are literally thousands of Windows applications out there that are only used by a tiny fraction of the total Windows PC user base, because those applications are so specialized.  The folks out there who have no idea why anyone would ever want to use Windows 8 on anything but a touch tablet have never heard of any of those apps, because those apps have nothing to do with the web or gaming and they would be utterly pointless outside the desktop.



     

    Friday, September 16, 2011 1:52 AM
  • Over the last 10 years the Windows platform has grown to become a rock solid platform for all sorts of engineering tasks. That is where the software is and I’m now talking about complex software costing $10000+ per seat.  I wouldn’t be surprised if 95% of all the worlds engineering applications run on the windows platform.

    Why should MS sacrifice this in order to provide Joe Blow with a platform suitable for he’s social addictions?

    Metro isn’t doing anything to improve the productivity of the professionals. Please don’t force this onto our workstations, or at least keep the Desktop UI and Metro UI completely separate with an option to disable one or the other.

    Friday, September 16, 2011 9:40 AM
  •   Just rename c:\windows\system32\shsxs.dll to something else, and you get rid of metro and retain the ribbon.
    this is better, but causes other issues. Explorer crashes always 1 time before it opens in the old way.

    "A programmer is just a tool which converts caffeine into code"

    Friday, September 16, 2011 12:53 PM
  •   Just rename c:\windows\system32\shsxs.dll to something else, and you get rid of metro and retain the ribbon.
    this is better, but causes other issues. Explorer crashes always 1 time before it opens in the old way.

    "A programmer is just a tool which converts caffeine into code"


    Seriously. Did you check on another machine?

    I'm running Windows 8 in VMWare 8, and haven't encountered this problem.

    Cheers

    Rem

    Friday, September 16, 2011 12:59 PM
  • I see this because I enabled dump creation of apps. If you start taskmagr windows first tries to start TM.exe which fails, next the old one is loaded. Same for Explorer. After booting screen becomes black for 0.5s next explroer is there and dump is created.

    I hope we get an option in the Beta to disable it on desktop PC without those issues.


    "A programmer is just a tool which converts caffeine into code"

    Friday, September 16, 2011 1:33 PM
  • What's really scary is that in the recent past (thinking about the Windows 7 beta) almost NOTHING changed, usability-wise, between the first look we got and the final release, no matter HOW many people pointed out the deficiencies.  Fairly quickly we got workarounds from 3rd party developers, which saved the day.

     

    I have been an early-adopter of every version of Windows so far, going all the way back, being one of the first for example to use XP x64, but I have to say that if the Windows 8 system truly does release as it is now, until 3rd party developers find a way to force Windows 8 to stay in the Aero desktop environment except for when I want to test a Metro app, I'm going to have to wait to buy it. 

     

    Maybe my 6 or 8 systems don't amount to much in the market of half a billion users, but I don't think I'm alone.

     

    -Noel

    Friday, September 16, 2011 2:32 PM
  • Noel, you're not alone.

    And you explained perfectly my feelings with your "BAM" post.  Switching back to Metro to run an app to only have it switch back to the Desktop interface is just plain ridiculous.

    My feelings at this early stage is that Metro is designed for my kids and their toy "cell phone" style games.  (The Metro 'cool' factor for me ran out after a few minutes once I tried running some real apps.)  To run apps designed for grown-ups, we need an actual Start Menu on the Desktop interface to do some real work with.  We have over 10,000 computers and without a real Start Menu in Desktop interface, Windows 8 will leave a pretty sour taste when we review it officially to consider whether or not to migrate from Windows 7.  I mean, without a Desktop start menu to run your "real" apps, what's the point of Windows 8?  Windows 7 offers what you need, not Metro.

    (I can't believe Microsoft won't put a real Start Menu in Windows 8 Desktop interface, but since it's not there initially, I feel it's important to express our desire to have one and hope that they listen.)

    Friday, September 16, 2011 2:54 PM
  • Here is the 3 step process - works in Windows 7 and Windows 8.

    1. Start
    2. Type "cmd"
    3. Ctrl+Shift+Enter 

    Friday, September 16, 2011 3:14 PM
  • Hello,

    To assist with thread management we are going to lock this thread, if there are any additional questions regarding this topic please create a new thread.

    Thanks!


    Michael
    Friday, September 16, 2011 4:43 PM