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Worst 60 minutes in my entire life

    General discussion

  • I'm writing this because Windows cannot return any feedback, due to lacking internet access.

    I know this looks like Milestone 3 only, but the paradigm is just plain wrong for non-touch devices.

    - For a non-touch device you cannot mix the Metro UI with the Windows UI. Even worst, you cannot bring Metro UI elements over the Windows UI. It's confusing as hell. Small-BIG-Small... See WiFi Connect, Start>* commands,  etc
    - It took me 30 seconds to find why & how i made a menu appear over Start
    - It took me 5 minutes to find the shutdown command. Even if there are still 3 clicks, the commands are on the oposite sides of the screen
    - Where's my computer/documents ? You created a paradigm. The Start menu. All is in the Start menu.
    - Where's Start ? You cannot expect a laptop/desktop user to click start and roam over a 1440x900 (+ scroll on bottom !!) area - just to try to start an application
    - F3 always works. I know it. I need Programs and Features. Program... nothing. Why ? O, wait i have to select Applications as area of search.
    - I dare you to close an app without using CTRL+ALT+DEL/ALT+F4. Why close it ? Because i don't need it, i don't use it anymore... and it occupies space in the ALT+TAB switcher.
    - An app started. No internet > error. ok. Let's go back from the error screen... How ? (of course CTRL+ALT+DEL)
    - Pressed physical START. I want start. Start i say. Wait, what ? Start is a task switcher ? [Even if in Windows <8 Start acts like a task switcher, Start is a menu, now is a screen]
    - Ok, i hate using the Ribbon UI in Windows Explorer. God that's big and ugly. Let's un-pin it. Done. My computer > I need System Properties to access Right-Click on the missing My Computer. Where's System Properties ? In the un-pinned Ribbon UI. Damn.
    - Let's install the video drivers. Setup. Metro UI Message OVER Windows UI: Smartscreen cannot ... " Oki. 10 seconds later. I did click it, right ? Again. Smartscreen cannot ... " Oki. 5 seconds later. Again. "Smartscreen cannot ... ". Something must be here. Ignore something > Run anyway. Damn.
    - I want to connect to the internet. In my case i need to install the Ericsson Wireless Manager for my 3G connection. Done. Let's start it. Wait, what ? Where's the app ? Found it at the end of the Start screen, quitly hiding.
    - Start Ericsson Wireless Manager. Message: The app needs Windows to configure .NET Framework 3.5. Press ok to use Windows Update. Damn. Next, let's look under Windows Features, maybe this works, because it must be on the DVD. "Press ok to use Windows Update". Ok. I know i have a full kit somewhere. Preparing... "Press ok to use Windows Update".
    ALL STOP. Shutdown. Old HDD out, SSD in.

    Conclusion:
    For Windows 8 Beta, please do include .NET Framework 3.5 on the DVD.
    Metro UI is great for tablets or people who have never ever seen Windows. Keep the Metro UI for tablets only.
    Don't overlap Metro UI elements over Windows UI for desktops/laptops.
    Don't use *any* Metro UI elements for desktops/laptops.
    There's too much confusion !

    PS: I do love the Ribbon UI *in Office*. What it was meant for. Not Windows.

    Next test, on Windows 8 Beta.

    Wednesday, September 14, 2011 6:43 PM

All replies

  • Couldn't agree with you more. I want to at least have the ability to chose the metro UI. I know Microsoft is trying to make there operating system more friendly but please stop trying to copy Apple and stick to the stuff you are good at.

     

    I cannot stand the metro UI, yes it would be cool perhaps every so often to have some full screen browsing and use the Facebook and twitter apps. But I won't ever let it become my Windows

     

    Please at least give us an option like in previous versions of windows to disable the metro UI feature. or actually design it so that its not something forced apon us and that we can visit it when we want

     

    I'm actually scared that you are going to leave windows like this. Cause if you do and it sticks for Windows 9 I'm not going to be able to stay on Windows 7 forever :/

     


    • Edited by Syther101 Wednesday, September 14, 2011 6:52 PM
    Wednesday, September 14, 2011 6:50 PM
  •  

     

    honestly, it was really confusing for me to till about 4 in the morning haha. but once i got the hang of it it really is an awesome OS. no need to close an app, they automatically close if needed and when your not in the app/program it is suspended not using any of the CPU. literally everything is twice as fast on win8 compared to win7. i have a phenom II X4 965/8gigs DDR3/ 1TB 7200 RPM HD/sapphire 6670 1G... so dont say it is my computer. everything works right from the get go. all the drivers were pre installed(even for my wireless N adapter) and was even able to install the ati drivers for my GPU. the only thing i do not like about win8 dev preview is that the app store is not open :( 

     

     

     

    also.... you know you can get rid of metro ui completely and have the old start menu back very easily right?    

     

     

     

    edit... here is the article on how to do this http://www.neowin.net/news/windows-8-how-to-re-enable-the-classic-start-menu

    very easy...


    • Edited by cp0020 Wednesday, September 14, 2011 7:05 PM
    Wednesday, September 14, 2011 7:01 PM
  • Thanks. Now i do know.

    As i said, i do not have internet access on the machine, due to missing .NET Framework 3.5. And switching the HDD back in after getting mad with rage is not an option anymore.

    I have absolutely nothing with the Metro UI, because i did not got a chance to test it. And i love it on my Omnia 7.

    My point is that, if this is a release optimised for touch devices only, it should have been stated. But, if this is a glimpse at what's comming to us all (always enabled, we know it's better, etc), then it's just plain wrong.

    Wednesday, September 14, 2011 7:26 PM
  • Couldn't agree with you more. I want to at least have the ability to chose the metro UI. I know Microsoft is trying to make there operating system more friendly but please stop trying to copy Apple and stick to the stuff you are good at.

     

    I cannot stand the metro UI, yes it would be cool perhaps every so often to have some full screen browsing and use the Facebook and twitter apps. But I won't ever let it become my Windows

     

    Please at least give us an option like in previous versions of windows to disable the metro UI feature. or actually design it so that its not something forced apon us and that we can visit it when we want

     

    I'm actually scared that you are going to leave windows like this. Cause if you do and it sticks for Windows 9 I'm not going to be able to stay on Windows 7 forever :/

     



    I couldn't disagree with you more!
    First off, how is this a copy of Apple?  I'm tired of hearing this - proves how much people don't know...

    I do see how it would be difficult to use it on a laptop or a desktop, but you have to look at it from Microsof'ts point of view.  The growth these days is in tablets - not laptops and certainly not desktops. 
    For desktop users, even this is not a bad experience, albeit, annoying. 

    To invent an OS solely for tablets doesn't fit with the Microsoft niche - no matter which route Microsoft takes, it would be impossible to make everyone happy. 

     

    As for me, I'm satisfied with this interface.  I know I will be buying a tablet in the future.  Knowing I can use the tablet also as a normal desktop with keyboard/mouse couldn't make me happier....

     

     

    Wednesday, September 14, 2011 7:32 PM
  • It's just a matter of time - those worst 60 minutes would probably be the worst of the remaining worst 60 minutes to come! (if that makes any sense ;) )  So it took you 5 minutes to find the shut down command - but atleast now you know where it is!

    The metro theme was designed primarily for tablets.  I agree - switching from big to small can be confusing.  But on the other hand, this makes the OS twice as useful - it means you can use the same device as a tablet AND a desktop. 

    Wednesday, September 14, 2011 7:47 PM
  • Well I like the new Metro UI.

    Ok it took over an hour to find out how to shut down the System. But for me this is no Problem. This is a new OS, not Windows 7 it may behave "different".

    With the Ribbon, I don't like it. I like to use it, but it looks "ugly".

    Wednesday, September 14, 2011 7:50 PM
  • @s.bhatia

    From my POV the problem is that Microsoft adresses 95% previous Windows users, 4% non Windows users, and maybe 1% non computer users, even if they are trying go change that. Maybe that will change.

    Let's say you use your tablet with the Metro UI and then you dock it. The experience of using your tablet as a docked computer ruins all the experience of using it as a tablet, if mixed UI elements are shown. You have a mouse attached ? Ok. Windows tablet returns to Windows UI only. But we do not know that.

    @loki

    I don't have a problem with the new OS. But i do have a problem with UI consistency. The lack there of. And the confusion generated by the UI. Say it's for tablets, great. Say it's for desktops worse. Say is for docked tablets, just as worse. I believe the first impression counts ... at least a bit. I'm already asking myself how will the new Windows UX Guidelines look like ? ... If the user clicks an element in the Windows Taskbar, it's always ok to show a green half-screen over the desktop, containing the few desired lines of information, to be touch friendy just in case....

    As with the Ribbon UI, i really do not understand who at Microsoft thought it was a briliant idea. ... Hey, you know the guys in the Office group, they've made a new menu for 2007 and have been selling millions of copies... Let's put it all around in Explorer. Yes. Great idea. And looks like touch friendly. Problemo solved.  The Windows UI is not touch optimised. As such, it does not need touch optimisations, like the Ribbon UI. For that you have the Metro UI.

    Wednesday, September 14, 2011 8:25 PM
  • On Wed, 14 Sep 2011 18:43:38 +0000, kmarcel wrote:

    For Windows 8 Beta, please do include .NET Framework 3.5 on the DVD

    Programs and Features/Add Windows Features. Same place it was in Windows 7.


    Paul Adare
    MVP - Identity Lifecycle Manager
    http://www.identit.ca
    No line available at 300 baud.

    Wednesday, September 14, 2011 9:37 PM
  • He has to connect to the internet (Windows Update) for it to work, which is not available because the app to connect to the internet needs .NET3.5
    Wednesday, September 14, 2011 9:47 PM
  • In the Developer version there is .Net Framework 3.5.1 under Programs and Features/Add Windows Features. Paul is right here. Simply install it to get legacy apps running.

    "A programmer is just a tool which converts caffeine into code"

    Wednesday, September 14, 2011 9:49 PM
  • Programs and Features/Add Windows Features. Same place it was in Windows 7.

    Installing .NET Framework 3.5 on [Windows Developer Preview English, 64-bit (x64)] requires Windows Update, that cannot be used without internet access, that cannot be accessed (in my case) without .NET Framework 3.5.

    Simple vicious circle.

    Just try to activate this feature on the Windows Preview w/o Tools, while disconnected from internet and tell me how it goes.

    Wednesday, September 14, 2011 9:59 PM
  • I'm finding windows 8 to be a bit of a mixed bag, I do have a Tablet and getting the pen drivers to work without .net or the buttons is nearly impossible.

    When attempting to install .net 3.5 it tells me that it must go online, I click OK then Windows Updates give me an error that windows updates are not working and to check to see if I have an internet connection.

    I think if I could get .net working I could get used to the rest, it is FAST compared to older versions and the hibernation feature works better than it did on my tablet.

    I couldnt imaging using this interface on a dual or tripple screen like my setup in my home/office.

    I agree that they need to give you full desktop access and I'll try that tip about enabling the classic (7) version.

    If anyone could help me with the .net issue that would be great, I've tried it with my Wireless connection, Wired connection and 3G mobile connection and all report that it can't connect.

    As for the comments for copying apple, um I doubt you've used a Mac in ages and you probably were an equal hater with the intro of significant UI changes from Win95 (start bar), Win2K (loss of DOS) and Win Vista (Shiny). Maybe if you ask nicely they may even give you your Win3.x progman.exe back. ;)

     

     

    Wednesday, September 14, 2011 10:37 PM
  • On Wed, 14 Sep 2011 21:47:10 +0000, Sztupy wrote:

    He has to connect to the internet (Windows Update) for it to work, which is not available because the app to connect to the internet needs .NET3.5

    No, he doesn't. It is in the box, exactly like it is with Windows 7, and
    exactly where I said he needs to go to install it.


    Paul Adare
    MVP - Identity Lifecycle Manager
    http://www.identit.ca
    Interface:  The opposite of "Getouttamyface."

    Wednesday, September 14, 2011 11:50 PM
  • On Wed, 14 Sep 2011 23:50:36 +0000, Paul Adare wrote:

    On Wed, 14 Sep 2011 21:47:10 +0000, Sztupy wrote:

    He has to connect to the internet (Windows Update) for it to work, which is not available because the app to connect to the internet needs .NET3.5

    No, he doesn't. It is in the box, exactly like it is with Windows 7, and
    exactly where I said he needs to go to install it.

    Apologies, I was wrong.


    Paul Adare
    MVP - Identity Lifecycle Manager
    http://www.identit.ca
    If at first you don't succeed, you must be a programmer.

    Wednesday, September 14, 2011 11:53 PM
  • On Wed, 14 Sep 2011 21:59:17 +0000, kmarcel wrote:

    Just try to activate this feature on the Windows?Preview w/o Tools, while disconnected from internet and tell me how it goes.

    Not well. :-)


    Paul Adare
    MVP - Identity Lifecycle Manager
    http://www.identit.ca
    "Virtual" means never knowing where your next byte is coming from.

    Wednesday, September 14, 2011 11:53 PM
  • Oh I just figured out my .net error.

    Since I did a upgrade and kept settings a group policy existed to point Windows updates to my WSUS server. Since this server didn't know Windows 8 it wouldn't find anything.

    It appears that the Windows updates were also broken at the same time.

    Once I've manually removed the WSUS server references from my registry (I didn't have access to my server, I know bad idea but it works) the add features for .net worked again.

    I wish I recorded the error number to post here but hopefully this helps.

    Thursday, September 15, 2011 12:09 AM
  • Thank you.

    So, about my changed - to .NET 3.5 not being present on the installation ISO - subject (which i did not complain, and took as a fact, and finally colapsed)... Maybe, could someone from Microsoft update the ISO builds W/O tools, to include .NET 3.5 ? So, that some of the unfortunate others, like me, be able to access the internet and might test the rest OS ? Too much, i know.

    This comes to show actualy that Windows misses a native, most basic, WWAN modem interface. And built-in drivers, in my case for Dell HSPA 5530. (But i had those)

    Thursday, September 15, 2011 12:22 AM
  • I agree on many points with the OP. I also have very strong doubts if this is really going to do well on the desktop market, quite frankly I sincerely doubt it.

    Now, while I fully agree that Windows is initially aimed at end users I can't help wonder if Microsoft isn't overdoing it a bit with the whole touch approach. I don't see Metro working out well on a desktop environment, especially not in its current form.

    The beauty of Windows 7 (and Aero) is that it allows me to do things. Like last night; I grabbed the ISO, IE9 was nicely sitting on my taskbar and while I was chatting on Messenger I could easily see for myself how far my download progressed. At every moment; I start a card game and I continue to see the progress.

    I think the main problem here is that it has become overly tedious to start and find something.

    For example...

    I'm a sysadmin. So I wanted the sysadmin group to be present. I go to settings (hoover on lower left corner, pop up appears and select "settings". Now click "preferences") and find the option to show the "administrative tools". So far, so good.

    BUT these tools end up at the end of the metro row. So in order for me to start, say, computer management I now need to click start, drag the screen all the way to the end only to find the option there.

    This used to be clicking start, moving to "Admin tools" and clicking the tool I needed.

    (yes, I am well aware of win-r and "compmgmt.msc", that's not the point here).

    And of course there is also no easy way using a mouse & keyboard to move that entire group somewhere else. Maybe there is a way, but so far I haven't been able to find it.

    But the approach itself is bad in my opinion. On Win7 I click start and right upwards I have 8 of my most current used programs; move up and click to start. On Win8 I first need to drag screens around in order to find the program I need.

    Speaking of which...  Even finding a program has become very tedious these days. I hit the Win key and start typing, say "Windows update". Now I won't get to see anything because the results have been grouped together in "programs" and "settings" where "programs" is active by default. In order to see anything in another group I first need to activate it, which I can do by using the cursor key to select it and then hit enter. On Windows 7 all I had to do was scroll down using either the cursor keys or page up/down keys.  And as a side note; found results often appear behind the search pane itself (which cannot be closed by using our keyboard alone, you can press escape but all that does is reset the entire search alltogether before eventually closing the search panel). So back to the mouse again...

     

    Most of all I'm not looking forward to find other ways to compromise for the loss of the start menu. I don't want / need my entire desktop taskbar to be full of pinned icons nor do I need a desktop filled with icons. Yet that is exactly where Windows 8 seems to lead us.

    Now; I'm well aware that this is an alpha release and as such many things can change. But still; I don't see Metro as an improvement when it comes to office usage. Not in its current form anyway.

     


    With kind regards, Peter
    Thursday, September 15, 2011 1:04 AM
  • Maybe I'm just crazy, but this is a Developer Preview... not an IT preview, not an end-user preview, not a geek preview. It is meant to get PROGRAMMERS familiar with the new features so they can begin to wrap their heads around new styles of apps. We already know that Microsoft left out key pieces of the OS because it doesn't want to tip its hand fully, the new features are still buggy and being optimized, and those features have nothing to do with programming. It is very possible that Microsoft has a fully featured old-school start menu for non tablet users but how does that have anything to do with developers practicing and playing around with .Net 4.5, Metro style apps, and Visual Studio 11? This preview is only meant for playing around with the new features, not exploring the old ones....

    I completely agree that this is the place to talk about the new UI features and voice our concerns, but don't lose sight of what the DP is all about... DEVELOPING.

    Just my two cents.

    Thursday, September 15, 2011 9:08 PM
  • - For a non-touch device you cannot mix the Metro UI with the Windows UI. Even worst, you cannot bring Metro UI elements over the Windows UI. It's confusing as hell. Small-BIG-Small... .


    Well put!  That is worth repeating, in larger type.

    People who need real computers to do real work need a way to stay in the traditional desktop.  Maybe Metro can be kept available for app testing or games, but it must be an EXCEPTION.

    Please remember that the product is called Windows not Window.

    -Noel

    Thursday, September 15, 2011 9:15 PM
  • I understand what alpha means. But the public distribution of sed alpha, means intent to. And intent to is what built each *.next
    Let's say i'm crazy, and i'm only 1 in a billion, statistically nonexistent (as the users that want total folder size in Explorer back, for example). The release of Developer Tools coupled with the announcement of Windows Store, means intent to sell apps, including apps for the Metro UI specificaly, when Windows 8 launches. As the tablet users base is small, you will also target non-touch devices users. Thus, all Windows versions whould include the Metro UI.

    Now, i can speak only for myself, but all i want in a computer is more power to do my job better and faster. And i will pay for that. Not window decorations. As a reference, i'm 27.

    Examples of intent, that went wrong, in my opinion:
    - a full running, Windows XP installation uses 100MB of RAM. Windows 7 1GB. (Disclamer: proud & happy user of Windows 7) [By design]
    - VS 2008 takes twice as much time (4 minutes) to compile a WebDev application, compared VS 2005 (2 minutes). VS 2010 takes 5 minutes. [By design]
    - Atmel used in AVR Studio 5, the VS 2010 IDE. Startup in 20 seconds. I had to buy a SSD just to start the IDE in 10 seconds. But hey, it is WPF based now. C++ (even plain C#) is old school and too costly to develop in. [By design]
    - You make me sync my WP7 to my PC using Zune, for a few pictures, instead of USB/WiFi/Bluetooth. [By design]
    ...

    I really do not want the current way the UIs interact to have a by design solution.

    Friday, September 16, 2011 7:47 AM
  • Some of those things ARE annoying as hell, I can agree. I actually do like the Ribbon-ised Explorer, and the Metro interface... but some of the elements just don't work together... at all.

    • It took me around 20 minutes to figure out the shutdown sequence. This was mostly because the tablet I used had terrible edge touch and the first-pixel side menu would not appear. Eventually found the "hover over start" menu in the "Desktop" and stumbled across it under settings >8(

    • I DO have internet access, but it's behind an authenticated proxy server. I had to install a driver to get my touch panel working... and guess what? Something in there (a utility?) required .Net 3.5.1. I found it in Windows Features and went to enable it... it asked me to communicate with "Windows Update", okay... BAM... 0x800F0906 error. Added proxy settings to IE, authenticated and saved credentials, tried again... 0x800F0906. Downloaded the FULL ".Net 3.5 SP1" redistributable package and ran it on the system (using the W8 system an IE)... wants to use "Windows Update"? Huh? Try... 0x800F0906. Grrrr.

    • Then we get the other similar annoyance to the OP. I had some network issues at one point and received a giant green Metro bar across my desktop with regards to "SmartFilter... ooooookay. Dismissed it. Nothing. Hmmm, tried again. Same. Hmmm, tried again and read the dialog a little closer... expanded option and chose "Run Anyway"... hooray. That wasn't obvious. 
    Metro should be Metro. Desktop should be Desktop. Be REALLY careful combining this Microsoft. The "Start Button" being a "Metro UI Launcher" is a bit of a pain. I'd like to see my "User's Files", "Computer", "Devices and Printers" and "Search" options when I click that. 

     

    Friday, September 16, 2011 11:59 AM
  • On Wed, 14 Sep 2011 18:43:38 +0000, kmarcel wrote:

    For Windows 8 Beta, please do include .NET Framework 3.5 on the DVD

    Programs and Features/Add Windows Features. Same place it was in Windows 7.


    Paul Adare
    MVP - Identity Lifecycle Manager
    http://www.identit.ca
    No line available at 300 baud.

    It still goes out to WU to get the bits to install it.
    Friday, September 16, 2011 12:25 PM
  • I agree with many of the OPs points. Obviously when working with something unfamiliar things are going to feel odd but at the present I don't see the Metro UI being a proper fit for desktop computing. I'm sure it would work well on a tablet device with a small screen - something that is used mostly for web browsing and simple media viewing but for serious work I think the full Aero interface is a requirement.

    The constant flipping between Metro & Aero feels clunky, this will change when there are more apps that use Metro but I cannot imagine working in something like Photoshop under the Metro UI.

    Friday, September 16, 2011 12:37 PM
  • The constant flipping between Metro & Aero feels clunky

    yes, this sucks. You're on the normal desktop, click a link, next the Metro IE opens. You have to switch over and over again between the desktop and the Metro Startscreen :(

    "A programmer is just a tool which converts caffeine into code"

    Friday, September 16, 2011 12:49 PM
  • On Fri, 16 Sep 2011 12:25:53 +0000, BetaChris1 wrote:

    It still goes out to WU to get the bits to install it.

    You might want to read the entire thread before responding.


    Paul Adare
    MVP - Identity Lifecycle Manager
    http://www.identit.ca
    Overflow on /dev/null; please empty the bit bucket.

    Friday, September 16, 2011 12:56 PM
  • Funny thing...  I installed an app that needed .net, and the system informed me that it needed to go to Windows Update.  I told it to go ahead.  The .net package installed fine, and the app installed fine.

    That was actually very smooth.

    -Noel

    Friday, September 16, 2011 2:39 PM
  • I tried that thing too, and clicked Ok at Windows Update. But by some strange happening, Windows Update told me to retry installing .NET when on the internet. ;)
    Friday, September 16, 2011 4:25 PM
  • I'm writing this because Windows cannot return any feedback, due to lacking internet access.

    I know this looks like Milestone 3 only, but the paradigm is just plain wrong for non-touch devices.

    - For a non-touch device you cannot mix the Metro UI with the Windows UI. Even worst, you cannot bring Metro UI elements over the Windows UI. It's confusing as hell. Small-BIG-Small... See WiFi Connect, Start>* commands,  etc
    - It took me 30 seconds to find why & how i made a menu appear over Start
    - It took me 5 minutes to find the shutdown command. Even if there are still 3 clicks, the commands are on the oposite sides of the screen
    - Where's my computer/documents ? You created a paradigm. The Start menu. All is in the Start menu.
    - Where's Start ? You cannot expect a laptop/desktop user to click start and roam over a 1440x900 (+ scroll on bottom !!) area - just to try to start an application
    - F3 always works. I know it. I need Programs and Features. Program... nothing. Why ? O, wait i have to select Applications as area of search.
    - I dare you to close an app without using CTRL+ALT+DEL/ALT+F4. Why close it ? Because i don't need it, i don't use it anymore... and it occupies space in the ALT+TAB switcher.
    - An app started. No internet > error. ok. Let's go back from the error screen... How ? (of course CTRL+ALT+DEL)
    - Pressed physical START. I want start. Start i say. Wait, what ? Start is a task switcher ? [Even if in Windows <8 Start acts like a task switcher, Start is a menu, now is a screen]
    - Ok, i hate using the Ribbon UI in Windows Explorer. God that's big and ugly. Let's un-pin it. Done. My computer > I need System Properties to access Right-Click on the missing My Computer. Where's System Properties ? In the un-pinned Ribbon UI. Damn.
    - Let's install the video drivers. Setup. Metro UI Message OVER Windows UI: Smartscreen cannot ... " Oki. 10 seconds later. I did click it, right ? Again. Smartscreen cannot ... " Oki. 5 seconds later. Again. "Smartscreen cannot ... ". Something must be here. Ignore something > Run anyway. Damn.
    - I want to connect to the internet. In my case i need to install the Ericsson Wireless Manager for my 3G connection. Done. Let's start it. Wait, what ? Where's the app ? Found it at the end of the Start screen, quitly hiding.
    - Start Ericsson Wireless Manager. Message: The app needs Windows to configure .NET Framework 3.5. Press ok to use Windows Update. Damn. Next, let's look under Windows Features, maybe this works, because it must be on the DVD. "Press ok to use Windows Update". Ok. I know i have a full kit somewhere. Preparing... "Press ok to use Windows Update".
    ALL STOP. Shutdown. Old HDD out, SSD in.

    Conclusion:
    For Windows 8 Beta, please do include .NET Framework 3.5 on the DVD.
    Metro UI is great for tablets or people who have never ever seen Windows. Keep the Metro UI for tablets only.
    Don't overlap Metro UI elements over Windows UI for desktops/laptops.
    Don't use *any* Metro UI elements for desktops/laptops.
    There's too much confusion !

    PS: I do love the Ribbon UI *in Office*. What it was meant for. Not Windows.

    Next test, on Windows 8 Beta.

    yeah, I have the same feelings about almost everything.... not the best first impression.  Me, my enterprise, and my 20,000+ users are hoping this isn't anything close to the final product.
    Friday, September 16, 2011 8:00 PM
  • I'd suggest that if an inanimate object such as a computer can make you "mad with rage", you probably aren't the right audience for a developer preview of an operating system. Wait until the RTM. Microsoft, and their tech-savvy community helpers, will have ironed out the issues for you by then.
    Sunday, September 18, 2011 9:14 AM
  • The entire point of this Developer Release of Windows is to give the rest of the industry plenty of time to get their own software up to speed. In the case of your Ericsson drivers, this will probably mean either a) updating them to use .NET 4 or .NET 4.5, or b) packaging .NET 3.5 on the Ericsson install media. Once this is done, they'll work straight away on Windows 8.
    Sunday, September 18, 2011 9:18 AM
  • I'd suggest that if an inanimate object such as a computer can make you "mad with rage", you probably aren't the right audience for a developer preview of an operating system. Wait until the RTM. Microsoft, and their tech-savvy community helpers, will have ironed out the issues for you by then.


    You are probably right, because i don't have any intent to build Metro apps for now. But i think i voiced my concerns pretty clear.

    How calm can you stay when, at first glance, you need 45 minutes to run 2 apps, install video drivers, and try to get on the internet ? (and fail) Please enlighten me.

    From my previous knowledge, once a Microsoft OS goes Beta, nothing in the UI will ever change. Maybe an icon or a label, but that's it. When should we voice our concerns ? Post SP1 ?

    Sunday, September 18, 2011 12:48 PM
  • You must probably not be up to speed with company policies. All companies want to sell.
    No serious sw company will ever move it's software to Metro. I dont see myself using Labview, ISE or Matlab in Metro.
    No hardware company in it's right mind will ever update a program so that a hw part will work with a new & unsupported OS: they will instead build a new product and offer you a change to buy it.

    Sunday, September 18, 2011 1:03 PM
  • I take this for a very early experimenting. It would be crazy and suicidal for Microsoft to sell this crap for laptops and desktops to the average users.

    Metro is awful in here. And Ribbon out of Office... whose idea was it to put it in every window?

    Bring back the Windows 7 explorer normal features and send Ribbon and Metro far away. You don't need to reinvent and reimagine for the worse.

    Sunday, September 18, 2011 1:47 PM
  • Do you know that you can hide the Explorer ribbons, so that they essentially work like menus?  Click the little upside-down heart over to the right.

     

    Personally I think this is an EXCELLENT way to have handled this issue.  It's possible for there to be even less "chrome" around an Explorer window than in Windows 7.

     

     

    -Noel

    Sunday, September 18, 2011 2:26 PM
  • Enterprises are not in the business of teaching their employees new tricks.  Enterprises are all about getting the job done and if computers are what makes that happen great for Microsoft's revenue stream.  Everybody here knows all this.  Microsoft knows that anything that causes hesitation in adopting a new OS is bad.  There cannot be any doubt that MS will NOT try to force Metro usage in the Enterprise and consumer desktop marketplaces.  The result would be bad. 

    It seems a good move to release a Metro-centric release for developers (the WDP) since it appears that Metro is the principal new feature set, but let's all hope that Metro will only be an option for desktop users and the Windows 7 UI will only be an option for touch device users by RTM.  I can't imagine otherwise. 


    Colin Barnhorst Windows 7 Ultimate x64 on DIY with 6GB ram.
    • Edited by Cbarnhorst Sunday, September 18, 2011 2:35 PM
    Sunday, September 18, 2011 2:34 PM
  • Microsoft knows that anything that causes hesitation in adopting a new OS is bad.  There cannot be any doubt that MS will NOT try to force Metro usage in the Enterprise and consumer desktop marketplaces.  The result would be bad. 


    Actually, there can be a lot of doubt.

    Microsoft has many times made decisions that don't seem to make sense.  There are a lot of Windows 7 features either missing or hobbled that once worked, but which power users in the enterprise environment don't find positive.  Thankfully there are 3rd party tools that work around a lot of these.  One example that comes to mind is that Explorer windows don't remember their size and position in Windows 7.

    No, I think it's pretty clear that people need to be worried about what they're seeing here, and that we may all end up forced to live with screens that jump from Aero Desktop to Metro and back again.

    -Noel

    Sunday, September 18, 2011 4:17 PM
  • Just one additional point:  Mr. Sinofsky didn't say "we're re-imagining Windows for non-technical users".  He wasn't specific.

    -Noel

    Sunday, September 18, 2011 4:21 PM
  • Just one additional point:  Mr. Sinofsky didn't say "we're re-imagining Windows for non-technical users".  He wasn't specific.

    -Noel

    Biggest LOL ever.
    Sunday, September 18, 2011 4:28 PM
  • Somehow I just don't see it as funny, unfortunately.

    The future of serious computing is at stake with the release of a new version of an operating system that a billion people in the world are running.  Everyone here owes it to themselves and all future computer users to provide the best feedback we can at this time.  Remember that when we saw the Windows 7 beta there were a lot of comments, but almost nothing got changed.  I really hope that's not the case here, as this is an even earlier build.

    I'd love to think I could make a fortune selling the next popular "Angry Birds" Metro app for Windows, but in all seriousness my livelihood has always been in engineering extremely complex software in embedded systems, as well as developing high-end graphics apps for Windows, and I'd like to think Windows can still be the OS of choice for serious computer users into the future.

    -Noel

    Sunday, September 18, 2011 4:50 PM
  • Maybe 8 is the old familiar Metro to WP7 users but it is Microsoft Bob R2 to me.
    Colin Barnhorst Windows 7 Ultimate x64 on DIY with 6GB ram.
    Sunday, September 18, 2011 6:02 PM
  • THIS:

     

     Keep the Metro UI for tablets only.
    Don't overlap Metro UI elements over Windows UI for desktops/laptops.
    Don't use *any* Metro UI elements for desktops/laptops.

    Bring back the full start menu and win7 search!

    Wednesday, September 21, 2011 8:43 AM
  • THIS:

     

     Keep the Metro UI for tablets only.
    Don't overlap Metro UI elements over Windows UI for desktops/laptops.
    Don't use *any* Metro UI elements for desktops/laptops.

    Bring back the full start menu and win7 search!


    I agree 200%

    No Windows 8 if the Metro interface is forced on my desktops, laptops and netbooks.

    Wednesday, September 21, 2011 9:37 AM
  • Noel,

    Spot on!

    Siv


    Graham Sivill - Martley, Worcester. UK
    Wednesday, September 21, 2011 9:54 AM
  • Is it me, or has no one logged off the metro screen and powered off via the power button on the login screen? (hint: Tap or click your user picture)

    Metro is an interface to be explored. I'm sincerely hoping that the features missing (the ones that keep Microsoft from claiming that the Developer Preview is "Feature Complete") deal with the task control and desktop/metro interaction. This is the biggest area of weakness in the OS, and Microsoft should be aware of that. Should be.

    Wednesday, September 21, 2011 10:03 AM
  • Is it me, or has no one logged off the metro screen and powered off via the power button on the login screen?

    That's the way I log off and shut down or reboot Windows 8 DP.

    -Noel

    Wednesday, September 21, 2011 1:24 PM
  • I had no problem connecting to the internet before I installed .Net 3.5.
    Tuesday, October 18, 2011 8:10 PM
  • You can't shutdown the system by tapping on the FullName on your start screen when your computer is joined to the domain. The only thing you could do from there is to log yourself off.

     

    But what you can do instead, it press WindowsKey+C to call charms, choose settings and then choose Shutdown from the bottom-right corner of the screen.

     

    By the way, how to you call that right-hand pane that appears when you choose Settings command from charms? What's the name for it?


    Well this is the world we live in And these are the hands we're given...

     


    Wednesday, October 19, 2011 7:43 AM
  • Please don't give Apple a bad name by comparing their work to Windows 8. Windows 8 is not designed for desktop and if Microsoft comes out and says it is with straight face then more power to the liars.

    I would compare few aspects of windows 8 with OSX Lion which has some of similar changes but how Apple again gets it right and Microsoft does not. This is from desktop/notebook perspective and not tablet.

    Start Menu, Dock and LaunchPad

    - OSX does not alienate its existing user as it retains the Doct and all the benefit it has but adds a LaunchPad to launch apps which only appears upon certain key stroke.

    - The dock still remains visible when LaunchPad is displayed.

    - The desktop is not an app but it is the computer.

    Full Screen Applications

    - OSX did the full screen apps designed right. It allows same application to run both in desktop and full screen mode. This provides all the benefits of full screen experience without jeopardising the non-full screen experience.

    - Again Windows messed up here by having full screen apps on desktop work same as for tablet with charms bar and other similar tablet constructs .

    So the two main features on desktop are much better on OSX. This tells me why Apple is a leader in usability while Microsoft lags behind.

    Here is what Microsoft should have done for Windows:

    Applications:

    - Each applications should be able to run in 3 (or fewer) modes: Desktop, Full Screen Desktop and Tablet.

    - In desktop mode, it should keep same consistent user interface as other desktop applications.

    - In full screen desktop mode, it should provide immersive experience with menu available on some key press or something.

    - For tablet device, the app should provide full screen experience with charms bar and all other finger friendly goodies ;)

    Start Menu:

    - Keep windows start menu

    - Use Aero peek for tiles (similar to gadgets)

    - Allow users to put gadgets with tiles on same screen or divide the peek button in two parts, one for desktop and one for tiles (or launchpad)

    - Allow searching/launching of all applications (both regular and metro) via traditional start menu or new tiles.

    - Always keep the task bar visible, in each screen until user goes full screen application mode.

    For tablet:

    The start menu can default to tiles screen and use that as the only experience and don't show the taskbar if user is running in tablet mode.

    This would improve and enhance desktop experience and provide clean tablet experience. It would provide choice to users who don't want to use tiles on desktop. This would make the OS have multiple personalities each designed for specific experience where underlying foundations being the same.

    It would also make it easy to develop one application for experinece across multiple set of devices.

    Please do something like this, please don't make us hate desktop

    Wednesday, October 19, 2011 12:07 PM
  • "Each applications should be able to run in 3 (or fewer) modes: Desktop, Full Screen Desktop and Tablet...This would make the OS have multiple personalities each designed for specific experience where underlying foundations being the same."

    This is exactly the kind of thing that I was expecting when I first heard that Windows 8 would run on mobile devices. Instead what Microsoft has done is nerf the desktop experience by turning it into a dumbed-down mobile experience, essentially undoing two decades of progress in PC productivity.


    Moderator | MCTS .NET 2.0 Web Applications | My Blog: http://www.commongenius.com
    Wednesday, October 19, 2011 2:42 PM
  • Oh well, I'm on the TechNet forums anyway so I have another idea on the subject; and since we can discuss here...

    I've been thinking and although my opinion on the matter hasn't changed I've started to wonder in what way Metro is actually going to fix the current problems with the start menu. At least for the desktop users.

    I have to agree with the previously shared results of the Microsoft studies. I too see in my profession many people who have an enormous start menu and as a result can hardly find anything anymore, thus often result to searches but most often simply putting everything they want to quickly start onto the desktop (and start menu & task bar ever since I've showed them).

    The big issue here is in my opinion the cause of their huge start menu. That cause usually lies with software vendors which deemed it handy to start using their own start menu entry to host their software. Obviously hoping that you'll get more of their software and when you do it'll all be neatly packaged under 1 single menu entry: their company name.

    Problem: Most people don't care at all about a company names. When they install an editor they'd be better of if those got put under a menu entry "Editors" instead of "Editor developing company\MegaFast Edit".

    Another problem: Not every software package does a clean de-installation. As such its also not uncommon for start menu entries to become orphanaged. Of course this also happens when the user starts to edit the start menu themselves, but that hardly happens.

     

    Now, the question which I've been thinking about...  In what way would Metro change this behavior exactly?  Meaning: what is to stop software vendors from creating their own "Company tile" and then dumping all of their software into it ?

    Instead of having a huge start menu with company names users will now end up having a huge collection of company tiles.

    The way I see it Microsoft doesn't so much fix the problems with the start menu by introducing Metro. All they're doing is moving the problem to a different location while seemingly ignoring the actual cause of the problem itself.

     


    With kind regards, Peter
    Thursday, November 10, 2011 6:31 AM