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Windows Mobile 6.5.3 DTK on Visual Studio 2010

    Question

  • Hi,

     

    I installed VS2010 today and after that I wanted to install WM6.5.3 DTK, but it cannot detect VS and NETCF to install. What's the problem? No way to install WM6.5.3 DTK on VS2010?

     

    Regards

    Thursday, April 15, 2010 8:02 PM

Answers

  • There's no problem - VS 2010 does not include device support. Keep using VS 2008 for that.


    This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no rights.
    • Marked as answer by TTAAEELL Thursday, April 15, 2010 9:25 PM
    Thursday, April 15, 2010 8:05 PM
    Moderator

All replies

  • There's no problem - VS 2010 does not include device support. Keep using VS 2008 for that.


    This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no rights.
    • Marked as answer by TTAAEELL Thursday, April 15, 2010 9:25 PM
    Thursday, April 15, 2010 8:05 PM
    Moderator
  • Im glad you flippantly think that is not a problem.  I think a lot of people disagree with you.
    Wednesday, April 21, 2010 9:20 PM
  • I agree with TexasRussian.  This doesn't make sense.  Windows Mobile 5/6/6.1/6.5 isn't going anywhere.  Those of us that develop for specialty/rugged devices are more than a little upset that we don't get to use the new Visual Studio (especially considering the many outstanding bugs with smart device development left in 2005/2008).  I think it's pretty funny that Microsoft apparently thinks these device users will be immediately moving to Windows Phone 7.  These types of devices don't move at the same breakneck speed as consumer phones.

    Thursday, May 13, 2010 4:48 PM
  • In addition to being a jerk, you also seem to have no knowledge of the specialty/rugged device market.  Windows Mobile owns that market currently.  It may be a niche market, but it is profitable.  I guess you are saying Microsoft shouldn't support their partners in that market?  I'm sure that will go over well with Garmin, HP, and others when they decide whether to switch to Android or not...
    • Proposed as answer by sanigo Thursday, March 10, 2011 2:54 AM
    Thursday, May 13, 2010 5:31 PM
  • Ilya's comments hit the nail right on the head: Since when has Microsoft cared about anything but the bottom line?
    Thursday, May 13, 2010 8:34 PM
  • Microsoft Reserch, CodePlex, Shared Source Initiatives... Sometimes they do things because it helps their perception, pushes the industry forward, and drives innovation when a tangible financial benefit is not readily apparent.  But that's beside the point. 

    There's a large market for specialty devices that run CE/WM that are NOT phones and won't be running WP7 (which is a consumer phone OS, not a specialty device system -- think rugged devices like FedEx carries).  It's a market WM6 does well in.  I would naively think MS would want to protect that market since they pretty much own it right now... for their bottom line.  Part of that would be supporting development on their latest development tools.  But *shrug* maybe they aren't pushing forward on the specialty devices anymore.  If not, then I guess I'll have to live with it. 

    We don't have any customers requesting Android development yet, but I suppose that might happen.

    • Edited by Timothy Carroll Thursday, May 13, 2010 9:12 PM Added a couple more lines
    Thursday, May 13, 2010 9:08 PM
  • Why am I a jerk? I just told you something what I believe to be the truth. If you have a better explanation please go ahead and express it. I promise I won't call you names even if it contradicts my own as I respect your right to express opinions.

    Simple fact here is what E&D division was bleeding money for years, look into financial reports if you don't believe me. Studies also show WM market share going down rather quickly. Without consumer mass market for WM licenses low volume market of rugged devices is not sustainable. Since these markets are very conservative WM would keep going for rather long time but it probably is a dead branch. May be CE Embedded would jump in here, we'll see.

    Actually I do have a pretty good idea on how vertical markets you mentioned are doing (which is not great but more or less OK). Whatever Microsoft is making money off that market is doubtful.

    Microsoft does support partners here - VS 2008 support is not going anywhere for many years. Platforms, however, come and go, it's natural.


    This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no rights.
    Thursday, May 13, 2010 9:35 PM
    Moderator
  • Maybe you think making condescending comments to developers of a platform is a fine course of action as a representative of your company.  Others may find such responses offensive, unprofessional, and undignified.

    Anyway, you are making an excellent argument against supporting Windows Phone 7 and instead shifting focus to OSS platforms like Android.  I'm a pretty big Microsoft apologist most of the time, but removing smart device development (as opposed to just not adding anything new to VS2010 for smart devices) are entirely different courses of action that show a lack of commitment to a platform when the going gets tough.  It'd be a tough sell to me if I was an embedded device manufacturer to commit to a new Microsoft platform knowing they may dump it entirely on a whim.

    I guess if the rest of Microsoft has an attitude like yours, I should brush up on my Java or Objective-C.  I can see the future for the 'third screen' in Microsoft's three screen strategy, and it won't be a Microsoft-based screen.

    Thursday, May 13, 2010 11:03 PM
  • Probably the best answer as to the future of barcode scanners and other "handheld terminals and rugged devices" running Windows CE/Mobile is at:

    http://blogs.technet.com/microsoft_blog/archive/2010/04/07/windows-embedded-business-aligning-handheld-terminals-and-ruggedized-devices.aspx

    • Proposed as answer by Adam Lengyel Wednesday, July 02, 2014 4:33 PM
    Thursday, May 20, 2010 11:29 PM
  • I know that MS is getting their hinies handed to them by Apple in the consumer phone department.  And I agree drastic steps are needed.  From a consumer phone standpoint, Windows Mobile does not even come close to iPhone in so many ways.  Maybe Windows Phone will come to the rescue.  Who knows.

    But in enterprise applications (where frequently the device is not even used as a phone), Windows Mobile is where it is at.  You can't just drop this whole side of the mobile scene to try and "rescue" the consumer side.  Many enterprise devices come with Windows Mobile and will not be able to upgrade to Windows Phone 7 (nor does it make sense to do so even if they could).

    MS has constantly miss-managed the Mobile side of their offerings (they even admitted it once).  The fact that they are dropping all of their existing Mobile development progression for a new OS that is not market place tested is just another indicator of that.  It would really be funny to me if I was not in a passenger car on this train wreck of a decision.

    I have a brand new Windows Mobile app that I am beginning to roll out.  Before the app is even past Beta stage it is already a "legacy" app because I will need to keep a VS 2008 version around to maintain it for however many years it is in service.

    Sure Windows Mobile lost to the iPhone, but that doesn't mean you can just abandon it for the thousands and thousands of enterprise level customers who where convinced to jump on the bandwagon.

    • Edited by Vaccanoll Friday, June 18, 2010 10:30 PM
    Friday, June 18, 2010 8:11 PM
  • This article was published yesterday: Microsoft Outlines Commitment to the Future of Enterprise Handheld Devices .  It is interesting, although not super convincing. This is a quote from the article:

    "....Ballmer announced that Windows Embedded will continue to support developer tools used in building applications and experiences on today’s devices, including Microsoft Visual Studio 2008 and Windows Forms. This will help provide confidence that the existing investments will be protected over time as Microsoft releases new software platforms, as the operating system support life cycle will be extended to more closely align with the typical life cycle of devices in the enterprise."

    I tend to agree with Vaccanoll that now that VS 2010 is released, anything that must be developed in VS 2008 or earlier could be considered legacy, regardless of whether VS 2008 support continues or not.  If Microsoft plans to provide native "Windows Embedded Mobile" development in a future service pack for VS 2010, they should say so, but I am not holding my breath.

    Friday, June 18, 2010 8:29 PM
  • That article makes me so mad!!!!

    This is a lot of marketing fluff to say, "MS loves the $$ we get from the handheld market but we suck at management so we are not going to support it with current development tools. Hopefully you are a manager and don't realize we are feeding you a load of ____ and will keep buying our handheld solutions."

    I mean really, to say that they "will continue to support developer tools" and then say that that tool is VS 2008 is just lame!

    OWN UP Microsoft!  If you are not going to support VS2010 then don't try to play both sides!  You are dropping your enterprise mobile development progression.  This article is just a way to try and not loose $$ too fast from people switching to android or something similar.

    At least if I switch to Android I won't worry about MS dropping its mobile offering again to try and and catch up with apple.

    The "best" part is that they drop the hint that VS 2010 support (in 2011) will be offered but it is as Silverlight apps only!  Um.. My app is not a silverlight app at all.  It does a lot of pinvoking and and is not a web app....

    GRRRRRRRRRRRRR

    I am a solid MS apologist in most things, but MS has messed up big here!

    Friday, June 18, 2010 8:44 PM
  • Can I reply to this thread with a bit of philosphy and nostalgia.

    I started my development in an era when interrupt vectors, interrupt handlers, peeks, pokes, time-slicing (you get the idea) was the way we, as developers, had to trick the population in general into believing that multiple applications were running simultaneously.

     

    However arcane that is/was, it served a very particular purpose...it FORCED us to be ultra-creative in development, to use whatever tools we had handy to get the job done, and once that job WAS done, we needn't look back primarily because updates were considered a new project. It also forced us to actually develop against hardware.

     

    If you think about it, developers TODAY, and yes I absolutely include myself into this grouping, are tantamount to clerks working for Microsoft. We let MS do the hard work of developing the solutions that drive the horsepower behind the machines, we simply use the high-level tools that they deem appropriate to give to us. Where before, even as hard as the work was to write code for ALL printer types, for ALL communications scenarios, for ALL file type dissemination, at the end of the day, we knew that we and we ALONE coded what was necessary for the said application's efficacy. So honestly, as a development community in general, to a large degree, we LET ourselves be put into this position by wanting shortcuts (if you think about it and get to brass tacks, thats exactly what it is) and by NOT being developers but simply certificated and highly paid transcriptionists.

    I understand that angst over this from a BUSINESS perspective and an enterprise perspective, and it's not as though I don't understand the business dynamic of todays world, I do...however, I also realize at the same time just how far we, as developers, have dropped with respect to creativity and ability to work with what we have. Quite frankly, the development world is very similar to the financial world in my eyes...Bankers wanted shortcuts to financial wealth, population in general, we're out hundreds of billions if not trillions.... developers, we wanted shortcuts, population in general, we're out on a limb with no support.

     

    Maybe we should take equal parts blame as MS....

     

     

    AB1

    Wednesday, June 23, 2010 3:12 PM
  • Vaccanoll - I agree with everything you said 100%!

    AlphaBetaOne - Although I must admit you do have a point insofar as when we let others develop our frameworks, we do, indeed, no longer have the control over the framework and have to be good soldiers are realize we aren't always going to get exactly what we want.  That's fine.  But Microsoft is selling us a product and a platform.  As developers on that product and platform, we have every right to tell them when we think their current approach to that platform is flawed.  Microsoft keeps saying they are going to support classic Windows Mobile as long as there is a market, but it is pretty obvious that the wishy-washy nature of that statement does not exactly inspire confidence in that platform, which then stagnates it, and allows competitors to take over. 

    Now, of course, WP7 is the new entry in this platform and is marketed as a successor, but really it's an entirely new thing that has more in common with the Zune than Windows Mobile.  WP7 has pretty lousy support for anything beyond a fart app, game, or GPS, so it's not enterprise ready (just like the iPhone).  With basically exclusive sandboxed development, there is no way -- ZERO -- for us to roll our own APIs to replace what is now gone.  There might be "jail break" style hacks, but good luck doing that to 2000 deployed devices and expecting some warranty support when something goes wrong on one of them!

    There are so many simple ways to "solve" this issue.  One would be allowing native code (even if JUST for non-UI aspects), P/Invoke, and background processing.  The minute something gets out of hand in Silverlight, we just drop to native and the job is done.  Porting things from winforms would be a hassle, but not nearly the hassle of converting it to Android, iPhone, or embedded Linux.  In addition, all the new APIs, UI, awesome CPUs, and other nice things about WP7 devices would be a freebie!

    But that just scares the bejesus out of the bean counters who fear it might help lead to a more open market that might compete with their monopolistic Marketplace or DRM deals struck with Zune.

    Wednesday, June 23, 2010 10:04 PM
  • In response to AlphaBetaOne's post, I feel the need to give a reminder that the good old days of custom operating systems, built from the ground up, are all but gone.  When our company first started in the handheld device market, we too built everything from scratch, customized perfectly to the hardware.  But our devices back then had a simple keypad and a very simple monochrome display that only fit four lines of text, thirty characters wide.  The device performed the set of functions that it was designed for, and nothing more.

    The market is vastly different today.  Our customers want to be able to view a PDF or open a spreadsheet on their device.  They want the ability to load various media formats.  They want to be able to build their own custom apps that utilize the touchscreen, bluetooth, GPS, and the .NET Framework.  They want to generate files on the device that can be viewed on the PC, and vice versa.  In order to achieve something that even approached that level of flexibility and customization, we would need to triple or quadruple our engineering staff.  The size of our customer base would not justify the amount of resources we would need.

    Having an operating system like Windows Mobile, in which the framework is already in place to fulfill many of the peripheral needs, allows us to quickly create custom solutions for our customers.  We are a small business, and most of our customers are small businesses in niche markets.  We couldn't possibly hope to turn a profit if we invested in developing a complete operating system that would meet all of the needs of our diverse customer base.  The cost would just be too high.

    I can appreciate the nostalgia that you feel for the early days, but I would argue that the rules have changed since then.  New expectations have been set for handheld devices, and if your device does not meet those expectations, your customers will find someone whose device will.  In our case, utilizing Windows Mobile is not a way to cut corners, but a way to create custom solutions that are built on a common foundation and that adhere to certain standards.

    I agree that Microsoft does not owe us anything except for what has already been promised.  They have a business to run too.  But I also agree that wishy-washy statements paint a less than clear picture of the future of the platform, and do not serve to inspire confidence in developers.
    Thursday, June 24, 2010 4:03 PM
  • I agree that Microsoft does not owe us anything except for what has already been promised.  They have a business to run too.  But I also agree that wishy-washy statements paint a less than clear picture of the future of the platform, and do not serve to inspire confidence in developers.

    It's their prerogative to go down any path they want with any of their products.  But it definitely hurts their perception to their (former?) mobile partners when MS does that and neglects their needs, which is why I think they do actually "owe" us if they want to keep us developing enterprise products for their platform.

    As it stands, migrating CF 3.5 (let alone native) apps to WP7's Silverlight/XNA is basically impossible for all except the most basic apps.  I still think the solution is simple, as outlined in my above post, but there's this worrying new trend in computing where locked down systems are becoming very popular and you hardly hear a peep from anybody (except the usual suspects, like the EFF, of course).  You can thank Apple for that.  MS did not had the cajones to develop a locked down system like WP7 (due largely to the antitrust suits in the 90s) until Apple paved the way.

    Thursday, June 24, 2010 6:13 PM
  • Sorry for posting this here cause I couldnt find where can I create a new topic, I have an urgent problem..I am developing a windows mobile 6.0 application and the menu item key (which I putted on left side to serve a back button) only works when I double click it or after several one clicks..but the items on the right side which in a menu works fine.. 

    going crazy someone helps please!!

     

    Tuesday, June 29, 2010 1:03 PM
  • At the top of this page (or at the top of just about any forum page) click on Ask a question . You aren't likely to get your question answered on this thread.

    Tuesday, June 29, 2010 3:39 PM
  • Ilya Tumanov
    ...Actually I do have a pretty good idea on how vertical markets you mentioned are doing (which is not great but more or less OK). Whatever Microsoft is making money off that market is doubtful.

    Well you got a good point there, but MS could make money from this market: If VS2010 supported CE/WM, developers would have a reason to buy the new VS.

    I'm stuck in between the new and the old; of course I could use VS2010 for desktop-dev, and VS2005 for CE-dev - but that's like driving to work in a old Ford when the Mercedes stands in the driveway next to it.
    That said, I had planned to buy VS2010, but this limitation is holding me back, so MS definently lost a sale because of that.

    Tuesday, June 29, 2010 11:22 PM
  • WM is losing it's position in the mobile devices! Forget the VS2010, I just waiting the WM6.5.3 SDK! not the DTK!
    Wednesday, June 30, 2010 6:15 AM
  • WM is losing it's position in the mobile devices! Forget the VS2010, I just waiting the WM6.5.3 SDK! not the DTK!
    Wednesday, June 30, 2010 6:15 AM
  • WM is losing it's position in the mobile devices! Forget the VS2010, I just waiting the WM6.5.3 SDK! not the DTK!
    Wednesday, June 30, 2010 6:15 AM
  • Be assured that there ideed _is_ a problem.

    TFS2010 is best integrated into VS2010; Silverlight4 even requires VS2010

    Phone 7 is - from an enterprise and business aspect - a useless toy, a me-too-iPhone with no visible business perspective.

    Realizing that, MSFT just announced its new "windows embedded handheld" strategy - leaving developers on the only mobile platform that so far worked for MSFT with nothing than mobile 6.5 until end of 2011.

    And you _really_ expect the developer community to happily juggle with multiple VS-Versions for more than a year, waiting for MSFT to finally make up its mind?

    After messing up every approach to the mobile market for years, do you _really_ want to alienate the last group of mobile developers still betting on MSFT?

     

     

     

     

     

    Friday, July 02, 2010 4:09 PM
  • Timothy,

    Even though it's been a while I would like to apologize as my phrasing was inappropriate. I’m sure your (and others) feedback will be heard and corrective action taken to make device development experience great again.

    The comment has been removed now.

    Best regards,

    Ilya

     

     


    This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no rights.
    Saturday, July 03, 2010 6:46 AM
    Moderator
  • Hi all,

    I find the situation with no support for WM in VS 2010 to be very odd. I find Microsoft's answers on the future of the mobile platform to be right up there with the sidestepping that you expect from politicians.

    Here's a worrying scenario: If you want to develop WM apps today, you need VS 2008. But just try getting a copy! I'm in Limbo! I got a 2008 trial the other day, it expired, so I thought I'd try 2010 only to discover no WM support. Now I can't find a way of getting a product key for 2008!!!

    This is ridiculous. Microsoft needs to provide at least the same tools that 2008 has in 2010 even if they're not going to continue development on the platform, because right now developers have no choice but to work with WM6.5 & WinCE.

    Perhaps Ilya would be so kind as to suggest a solution to this dilema?

    Thursday, July 08, 2010 12:10 PM
  • Now I can't find a way of getting a product key for 2008!!!

    You can still buy Visual Studio 2008 , So that should solve your problem.

    But, I agree that it is troubling that Microsoft claims that they will continue WM support via VS2008, but you cannot buy VS2008 on their own store .  Does that mean that Window Mobile development is intended to be limited to those who are already developing for the platform?  What about newcomers?  Is Microsoft just counting on Amazon and NewEgg to always be able to supply their software to the world?

    Thursday, July 08, 2010 1:45 PM
  • VS suppose to come with downgrade rights. I don't have VS 2010 at the moment to check but here's EULA fragment from VS 2008.

    17.    DOWNGRADE.  You may install and use this version and an earlier version of the software at the same time.  This agreement applies to your use of the earlier version.  If the earlier version includes different components, any terms for those components in the agreement that comes with the earlier version apply to your use of them.  Microsoft is not obligated to supply earlier versions to you.

    You might want to call support to verify it's applicable to specific version of VS 2010 and which version you can downgrade to from what version.


    This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no rights.
    Thursday, July 08, 2010 3:54 PM
    Moderator
  • VS suppose to come with downgrade rights

     Rights are different than abilities.  I may have the right to use VS2008 with my VS2010 license, but if I don't have the disk, where to I get the software?  Is there an MS download of VS2008 available for people who wish to downgrade?
    Thursday, July 08, 2010 4:31 PM
  • VS suppose to come with downgrade rights

     Rights are different than abilities.  I may have the right to use VS2008 with my VS2010 license, but if I don't have the disk, where to I get the software?  Is there an MS download of VS2008 available for people who wish to downgrade?

    If you have an MSDN subscription, you can easily download VS2008 (and 2005 and 2003, etc...) from Subscriber Downloads, but your point still remains very valid for those who buy VS2010 without MSDN.  MSDN subscriptions are VERY pricey, so this would seem affect most small-time / hobbiest developers.  But then again, MS never really bothered to try to make WM successful outside of the speciality/rugged device market, so it's pretty amazing it did as well as it did with all these development obstacles.  It's almost like they wanted an excuse to kill off WM classic in favor of a more locked down model where they control every aspect of the user experience, but now I'm digressing into conspiracy theory territory...  How about MS providing Smart Device development on VS2008 Express?  Would that actually be terribly difficult?  I don't know.  That's not a rhetorical question. :-)
    Thursday, July 08, 2010 5:51 PM
  • WP7 development tools are free. It is also possible to develop for WM for free from either command line or with free 3rd party tools.



    This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no rights.
    Thursday, July 08, 2010 10:43 PM
    Moderator
  • WP7 development tools are free. It is also possible to develop for WM for free from either command line or with free 3rd party tools.



    This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no rights.
    Thursday, July 08, 2010 10:43 PM
    Moderator
  • "....Ballmer announced that Windows Embedded will continue to support developer tools used in building applications and experiences on today’s devices, including Microsoft Visual Studio 2008 and Windows Forms. This will help provide confidence that the existing investments will be protected over time...."


    WP7 development tools are free. It is also possible to develop for WM for free from either command line or with free 3rd party tools.

    Why do I feel like there is some sort of disconnect here?  I agree with Timothy: Give us Windows Mobile for VS2008 Express Edition!

     

    Thursday, July 08, 2010 11:47 PM
  • Why do I feel like there is some sort of disconnect here?  I agree with Timothy: Give us Windows Mobile for VS2008 Express Edition!

    What, you don't want to write Windows Phone 6.5 applications in Notepad.exe and compile it with vbc.exe and csc.exe?  It's just as good as Visual Studio 2010 for Windows Phone 7!
    Friday, July 09, 2010 12:59 AM
  • I would probably just give away copies of VS 2008 Pro restricted to device development via special EULA and no free support included - it's way more cost effective than pulling resources from WP7 development and using them to create "Windows Mobile for VS2008 Express Edition". Allowing VS 2008 Pro download as part of downgrade rights with VS 2010 purchase can be another option.

    Not my call though.


    This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no rights.
    Friday, July 09, 2010 1:04 AM
    Moderator
  • Ilya - That is an incredibly good and logical idea.  After all, VS2008 is slowly losing value for MS since the release of VS2010, so it's really not any money lost.  But we will never see it, because incredibly simple and logical and good ideas seem to be lost on MS in the mobile market these days.
    Friday, July 09, 2010 1:10 AM
  • All this talk of the future of WM development has made me glad I'm in the C++ camp... At least with C++ we can all have a go at developing on embedded Linux if we really had to.

    How would you feel right now if you're a WM developer and all you knew was C#/.NET etc?

    Keep your code native ladies and gentlemen.

    Friday, July 09, 2010 5:22 AM
  • Not my call though.

    Well, whose call is it? When will we hear from them? Is it Steve Ballmers call?

    I must say that I agree with AnotherHacker when he said that Steve Ballmer sounds like a politician in his statement.  He promised us that we would not be forgotten, without giving any specific details of what that means.  He pretty much said, "We will continue to support Windows Mobile development until we decide not to."  Isn't that already the promise we have with any piece of software?  It will be supported until it is not supported anymore.

    If Ilya doesn't even understand the roadmap for the platform and tools, how are we supposed to?  I, for one, would like to see some sort of statement by somebody who is calling the shots about which tools will be supported and what that means.   Ballmer mentioned VS2008 specifically, but what does that mean?  Does it just mean that Visual Studio 2008 will still have its place in the MSDN forums until Windows Mobile dies?

    After all, VS2008 is slowly losing value for MS since the release of VS2010, so it's really not any money lost.

    I agree with this idea 100%, but it will never happen.  Microsoft clings to its software so tightly that they are still protecting Windows 3.1.  How much money do you think is rolling in every year from that?  What about MS-DOS?  The only realistic solution would be to put VS2008 back in the Microsoft Store.  If they were feeling really big-hearted, they might even charge less than what they are charging for VS2010, but then they might unintentionally undercut themselves.  As long as VS2008 can in any way be considered competition to VS2010, I wouldn't expect to see them hand it out, or even sell it.

    How would you feel right now if you're a WM developer and all you knew was C#/.NET etc?

    How would you feel if you are a WM developer and all you knew was the Win32 API?  That's not supported on WP7, and it certainly isn't getting you anywhere with embedded linux.  We are all in the same boat here.

    Friday, July 09, 2010 2:25 PM
  • Not to count Android, Linux never really made it to this class of devices. There's iPhone and Android to be considered as a potential replacement platforms within several years. iPhone development is based on Objective C (which is not C++ with rather different syntax and completely different libraries) and Android development is AFAIK Java based. So C++ probably not going to make it any easier.

    I moved on from mobile development several years ago (and amazingly pretty much nothing happened to WM since then) so I don't have first hand data (nor I would be able to tell if I have). I do have a guess though:

    1. VS 2008: no changes or additions will be done. Support continues for a long time with bug fixes and QFEs. That is usual fate of pretty much all products (with notable exception of Windows XP SP2).

    2. WM 6: gone from consumer market in 6 to 12 months (as no new devices have been announced by any manufacturers in a while). Would ship for many years on rugged devices. No changes or additions.

    3. CE: alive and well. Tools would be moved to VS 2010, probably WP7 UI model. Managed development only in VS 2010, native is winding down in general but will be supported for years with VS 2008.

    4. WP7: will be eventually expanded with enterprise grade features (database, security, private deployment, etc.). Native development unlikely.

    Again, this is just my best guess based on bits and pieces of publicly available data.

    I also dislike very much what nobody delivered a clear message yet; I believe customers have the right to know.

    Anyways, I do believe WP7 development model is way better than WM6 (and iPhone's for that matter). I've been using WPF (also based on XAML) for years now and Forms look like beat up pick-up from 70s (not El Camino - love this one) near brand new F150 compared to it. It does have a rather steep learning curve though.

     


    This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no rights.
    Friday, July 09, 2010 4:37 PM
    Moderator
  • I hope native isn't "winding down" on CE.  I can understand a heavier emphasis on WPF/Silverlight for the UI, but native code is absolutely essential to do anything at the system level (or time critical) on CE, which is not uncommon outside consumer phones.  I've said on other forums that a perfect balance for WP7 would have been .Net/Silverlight for the UI and most apps, but allow p/invoke and native EXEs for background services and time critical sections of apps.
    Friday, July 09, 2010 5:38 PM
  • Not CE specifically - native is winding down in general. Mind you, it won't disappear any time soon but would die out gradually retreating to some special cases like hard real time you've mention. I would even go as far as saying native is already long gone from enterprise in-house development.

    Besides, managed code is executed as native anyways. Sure, memory management and syntax is different - but that is a good change IMO. Take a look at, say, Objective C - it has different syntax (which is worse than even C++ IMO), has some rudimentary semi-automatic memory management (despite the fact it's from early 80s) and declarative UI model.


    This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no rights.
    Friday, July 09, 2010 6:41 PM
    Moderator
  • Oh I see what you are saying.  I agree with you there that it is slowly winding down for general use applications.  I thought you meant there was a push by MS to remove native altogether (I love .Net but there are just some system-level time-critical things you can't and shouldn't do (right now anyway) with managed code as its highly inefficient).  P/Invoking native APIs from a managed language is a similar but differnet conversation.  I think taking out P/Invoke from WP7 was premature (the managed API is not ready for primetime on that device).  But I digress...

    And yes, no argument, Objective-C is absolutely terrible.  C++ may have a cumbersome syntax, but at least it's a fully modern unmanaged language.  Objective-C is just... Well, it's a beast that only its mother could love.  And that's why Apple is the only one using it.

    Friday, July 09, 2010 7:24 PM
  • There's sometimes perception of managed code as "highly inefficient". It really is not. There's a good number of articles done by device MVPs to investigate managed code performance and compare it to native in device area, you might want to check them out as they might change your views on that.

    P/Invoke is not so much a performance tool but a way to get access to missing functionality. As managed APIs are covering more and more grounds need for it would be greatly reduced.

    BTW, I have a fun job within Office Labs and I've done some rather crazy stuff like real time video processing 100% in managed code. I must say I don't miss C++ at all. I used to do real time code since early 90s on puny 8 bit microcontrollers in various assembly languages, moved on to C and then to C# - and never looked back.


    This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no rights.
    Friday, July 09, 2010 8:25 PM
    Moderator
  • I agree with those articles 99% of the time.  However, I'm skeptical that, for example, a managed codec will ever outperform an unmanaged one.  Well, I should qualify that statement.  It won't do better without additional help from the framework itself (in other words, specifically crafted realtime performance boosts due to special wrappers that do the necessary system-level black magic outside the view of the managed library).  If that's what you mean, then we are in total agreement.  And as such abstraction layers begin to appear on CE/WP7/Big Windows, then yes, unmanaged becomes less and less useful.

    I'm not trying to perpetuate the myth that managed is slower.  I do most of my work in managed code and know better.  Still, IMHO, managed code is "young" and Windows CE and Windows are both built on a foundation of C++ and native API layers.  Without P/Invoke and without native development there will be things you just can't do (or can't do well) in managed code for some time to come.  Microsoft's WP7 answer is "too bad -- submit a request to us and maybe we'll write a wrapper for it."  I just feel that's both condescending to developers (we can't trust you to roll your own) and may prevent a really great project from ever coming to fruition due to some restriction or lacking library in the managed API.  Google took the same approach with Android.  A couple versions and a lot of bitching from their partners later and they decided, well okay... Maybe some unmanaged code is okay for those oddball situations where our managed APIs are not complete enough or some truly time critical function needs to run outside the sandbox.

    I just don't like MS taking a philosophical stand on the unmanaged vs managed debate.  The unmanaged stuff already exists.  Why lock it out and/or deprecate it?  Maybe some developers just like C++ better?  That's their prerogative if they do.

    Friday, July 09, 2010 8:39 PM
  • A very experienced programmer once told me that ".NET is what Microsoft gives to 'end users' to develop with. What is Windows written in? How many mainstream, commercial applications are written in managed code? When people start writing operating systems in .NET, I'll stop using C++."

    My earlier statement:

    "All this talk of the future of WM development has made me glad I'm in the C++ camp... At least with C++ we can all have a go at developing on embedded Linux if we really had to."

    I made because it appears MS is turning its back to an extent on the commerciial use/rugged market - what OS are we going to use? I'm not trying to get into a discussion on native vs managed too much; but for MS to phase out native code and expect us all to write applications purely on their terms is a going to insult a lot of people.

    Friday, July 09, 2010 9:53 PM
  • Windows code is legacy code which needs to support countless legacy APIs and countless legacy applications. With advent of virtualization that might change and OS can be fully managed with legacy OS running legacy code in VM. You can see that approach in Windows 7 already with XP Mode.

    As to operating systems in .NET - here's something consider: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Midori_(operating_system)

    It's good to think not in terms what "OS is written in" but in terms of "what OS will be written in 10 to 20 years from now". How may commercial applications were written in C in, say, 1981 (C was about the same age C# now)? Probably not that many. I would say most would be in assembly, FORTRAN or COBOL, no? Also, remember PL/M? I did good number of ports from FORTRAN, PL/M and even VAX Pascal to know what languages come and go.

    Commercial/rugged device market is predominantly managed. That is likely because it provides best time to market and reduces cost. There was bunch of studies done over years which back it up .

    BTW, it's not like other platforms are giving you a wide choice. You can basically peek either Java or Objective C if you're to go with viable competing platform, right? Judging by abundance of applications that does not seem to insult developers - after all language is just a tool.

    Anyways, this is indeed a philosophical discussion which represents my own views on the subject. It might not be the same as Microsoft's views and/or actions in the area. In any case as I already pointed out native code is not going anywhere any time soon.


    This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no rights.
    Friday, July 09, 2010 11:53 PM
    Moderator
  • After all these readings I'm confused for the following reasons:

    My company develop a lot of software for desktop PC (WIN XP or newer) , ARM devices (CE 6.0 / 5.0) and 8bit microcontollers (ASM / C).

    Our field is industrial automation and home building automation. Home build automation requires mangaing audio and viedo streaming too and directshow fullfills these requirements.

    We use managed code for PC and ARM device and I consider C# is a beautiful language. We did a lot of VB.NET projects tools in the past but nowaday all new projects are written in C#.

    We would like to move to VS2010 because it has innovative features than VS2008 but we can't because VS2010 doesn't support .NET Compact framework. This is very frustrating becuse one of the main reasons we follewed .NET was the ability to develop with one tool  (vs2005 before and vs2008 later) for both platforms (.NET and Compact .NET). We then continue to develop with VS2008 loosing the innovations of 2010.

    Actually We also still use VS2005 because Platform Builder plugin doesn't exist for VS2008. This is not so bad (even if we hoped we could unify VS using just one version) becasue we use VS2005 just to compile WINCE images. All the applications are then written in .NET with VS2008. We do a lot of usage of P/INVOKE calls but we don't need to use native code in 99% of situations. Actually we use some native code under VS2005 just when we build and customize OS images and device drivers. We are planning to use more native code in future when we need to build our own device drivers.

    As far I understood WIN EMBEDDED COMPACT (the new version of CE) is supported under VS2010 but only with silverlight/native code.

    I still haven't found any answer about the .NET compac framework future. Will VS2010 support .NET compact framework soon or not? We would like to use VS2010 for both .NET and Compact Framework .Net platforms in order to enjoy the new 2010 features.

    The alternative now could be to follow LINUX or Android OS and develop with MONO even on embedded systems

    Wednesday, August 18, 2010 6:23 PM
  • Enricohb - I could not agree more!  I want that answered too.  So far, it seems MS has forgotten that there is an entire world of CE developers out there making software for products that are not Windows Phone 7 (XNA/Silverlight).  And, not surprisingly, we want to use Visual Studio 2010.  Telling us we can still use Visual Studio 2008 forever is not a very good way to attract us to non-WP7 CE platforms for future products.
    Wednesday, August 18, 2010 6:50 PM
  • Timothy Carroll - I have to say I agree. But I also must say that I have not looked into Windows Phone 7 development because of MS mismanagement on their mobile offerings.

    I am a good developer, but not so good that I can afford to learn and get used to developing for CE platforms only to have MS decide (with little/no feed back or discussion) that they are going to drop all developers into the "has been" bin.

    I (and my company to a lesser extent) have decided that we cannot trust Microsoft in the mobile platform any more.  They jump around too much and make too many mistakes (what was the name of the "Other New Phone" that lasted less than a quarter on the market?).

    I don't know what "geniuses" they have running they mobile side of things a Microsoft, but they need to dump them and move some Executives from the Desktop side over (at least the new Desktop OSs that they make can sometimes run older code).

    Anyway, this is just dumb by Microsoft.  Windows Phone 7 cannot support scanners (and other such low level integration).  So (as it is) it cannot be an enterprise offering.  So why not just SAY what the plan is.  Say, "we will come up with something for CE folks" or "We plan to let you with enterprise devices rot" or SOMETHING.... let us know!

    This level of continued mismanagement is why iPhone (and ilk) rule and will rule over Microsoft's mobile offerings.

    Monday, September 13, 2010 7:48 PM
  • Anyway, this is just dumb by Microsoft.  Windows Phone 7 cannot support scanners (and other such low level integration).  So (as it is) it cannot be an enterprise offering.  So why not just SAY what the plan is.  Say, "we will come up with something for CE folks" or "We plan to let you with enterprise devices rot" or SOMETHING.... let us know!

    Perhaps you did not read all of the above posts and the articles they referenced, but Microsoft has outlined their plan for the enterprise: Windows CE and Windows Mobile have been swept under the much larger umbrella of Windows Embedded.  You can find details about the various branches of Windows Embedded at their website .

    Monday, September 20, 2010 8:32 PM
  • Hi,

     

    I installed VS2010 today and after that I wanted to install WM6.5.3 DTK, but it cannot detect VS and NETCF to install. What's the problem? No way to install WM6.5.3 DTK on VS2010?

     

    Regards


    vs2010epress is a professial vision for wm.
    Saturday, January 08, 2011 2:49 AM
  • Awesome thread!

    I'm so glad that I'm not alone!

    The real problem is that Phone 7 has no legacy support for CF.net apps! Silverlight is it! This break in migration will leave us rugged developers behind on a dying platform!

    My prediction is that MSFT will be out of the rugged (Maybe even consumer if Phone 7 doesn't pick up) mobile market at some point and we will all be forced to Android.

    I have Eclipse installed but man I don't want to learn ANOTHER IDE LOL!

    Come on Bill ... think hard about this on one of your 2 week think - tanks!

    Sincerely,

    Another Developer Left Behind by Forward Thinking!

     

    Friday, January 21, 2011 4:13 PM
  • Though Microsoft is totally ignoring us, if you want to make it more blatantly obvious that they don't really listen to their developers, vote here to have Windows Mobile support added back in:

    https://connect.microsoft.com/VisualStudio/feedback/details/595712/no-support-for-windows-ce-and-compact-framework-development-in-vs2010

    Maybe if enough people vote they will at least have to say SOMETHING.   Even if it is, "no we don't care about enterprise devices and developers or your business, go away!"  (Though they are really saying that by saying nothing.)

    Go vote and expose them for not listening to their developers.

    • Edited by Vaccanoll Thursday, March 17, 2011 4:15 AM
    Friday, January 21, 2011 4:31 PM
  • I've found Android development to be a real joy.  Java has come a long way since I last used it, and Android's UI layer is very intelligent and easy to develop for.  I wish MS would not have abandoned WM, but Android is pretty nice so far.  Also, there's an Eclipse plugin to change key bindings to Visual Studio key bindings, so I've hardly missed a beat. ;-)
    Thursday, March 10, 2011 4:35 PM
  • It will never happen.  MS has made their decision and they are going to live or die on the Windows Phone 7 hill.  It still pisses me off how this played out (WM had 3-4 YEARS of stagnant development that could have been better spent dominating mobile), but what's done is done.  I don't think it's worth voting up on Connect. 
    Thursday, March 10, 2011 4:37 PM
  • Timothy:

    I certainly appreciate your comments and DITTO them to this thread! Also very good to know that Android dev is easy to catch on to! I already have my marching orders that Android is right around the corner for us. We've seen a drastic dwindling of customer base over the past 1-2 years mainly due to the shrinkning install base of WM!

     

     

    Thursday, March 10, 2011 5:17 PM
  • Ilya, the problem is not just about the phone development but about you response. Your technlogy may be proficient but customer support, I suggest you should have a proper training. One important point I want to mention, you should not review anything about your company finacial vulnerable to public, even it exist, It make software developers think that  MS software for WP7 will be abandon soon. However, it part of business strategies and technology integration. iPhone and Android target different type of consumers, so be carefully when you post.




    70x7
    Friday, April 22, 2011 11:39 AM
  • Oh Boy.

     

    I sell my Apps on Google, BlackBerry APP World and Amazon.  I developed the classes on my VS2008 some years ago in C#.  Porting to Java was no big deal.  The biggest deal was .NET TimeSpan, obviously I had to write that class myself.

     

    I am also working with Microsoft MVC so Androids screens were correct in using XML for the V (view). 

     

    Couple days ago I loaded the Silverlight Mobile Phone to my VS2010 Professional and ran the Hello World.  It was good to be working in C#.  Then…  I needed a menu (woops).

     

    My App is Tides by State.  Think 365 days 4 predictions per day for hundreds of Stations and dozens of Ranges.  I need two Menus (1) get the Range (2) get the Station in the Range.

     

    AND!  My “menu” must be a hard coded ListBox coded in AXML???

     

    This thread has been running for A YEAR.  And no Context Menu API???

     

    Ilya has been running a great forum, but what is Microsoft really doing about Windows Phone? 

     

    Austin (MCP since 2005).

    Sunday, April 24, 2011 7:37 PM
  • I agree with TexasRussian.  This doesn't make sense.  Windows Mobile 5/6/6.1/6.5 isn't going anywhere.  Those of us that develop for specialty/rugged devices are more than a little upset that we don't get to use the new Visual Studio (especially considering the many outstanding bugs with smart device development left in 2005/2008).  I think it's pretty funny that Microsoft apparently thinks these device users will be immediately moving to Windows Phone 7.  These types of devices don't move at the same breakneck speed as consumer phones.

    Hi, I have been developer with Microsoft technologies for long. But the lack of seriousness and the future vivsión in Microsoft development platforms, especially mobile, forced me to look for options. Currently I develop my mobile applications for Android and iPhone, and my platform of choice to work is Android, it's amazing what you can do with a simple framework, only download a plugin for eclipse, you need not pay any kind of license, and publish your application in the market place without any difficulty. The API for barcodes work great, which helped me to replace my old mobile applications for picking and packing developed on WinMob.
    The same situation happens with Microsoft's web platform, while there are many java based frameworks, which will provide many things in development, will ensure compatibility across browsers, and give you freedom to manage your fancy UI, customize UI base on the userAgent, I think. Net is far less inflexible in all these points, which directly impacts product quality.
    Tuesday, May 24, 2011 10:28 AM